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Topic: How much effect does the market have on your own image?
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jul 3, 2019 12:46PM)
In another thread about insurance, Danny said this -

[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
But as I said the looking more professional stuff on some level is wishful thinking to me. Once you are on whatever level it is assumed you have it anyhow. [/quote]

And that just solidified something that's been bopping around my head lately.

I know each region/market is going to have its unique quirks and oddities. Like which advertising methods are most effective and that kind of thing.

But here's something my wife and I have been dealing with - There are few serious performers in this area, outside of music acts. Unless you go down to Baltimore, there's probably less than 20 or so people who perform for the public regularly, who do things like circus, sideshow, magic, mentalism, aerials, acrobatics, juggling, etc.

Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.

I know that once you hit a certain level your reputation will speak for itself - but we are not there quite yet.

So has this happened to anyone else and how did you approach the scenario? Is this just the normal scenario for someone building up their business and I'm just thinking it's odd because of my perception of it?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 3, 2019 01:52PM)
Time is your only ally.

Keep in mind though you build it one brick at a time. It takes quite a while to do so forget what the idiotic booms and guru speak will tell you. Every interaction builds you. You can only control how you act and this is important.

Dress right. Look good. Always act as if someone is watching because they are.

Another reason why "fake it till you make it" is dumb. When you get caught faking it people know who you are and it kills everything you build. This is one reason I never negotiate, or increase price according to their budget. To me negotiating is an inherently dishonest proposition. I want to get as much as I can from you is a strange way to do business to me. I prefer to ask for my value flat out. All who have worked with me be it venue or private know this and it is just how it is. But that takes time to build.

Know what you want your business to be and be that. Don't think you start acting that way once you are a success. It starts right from day one.

You will never stop the comparing. It is life. But as you are seen as different it begins to matter. Just keep being what you are. People will notice the difference, you won't have to point it out to them. Live it. Once they have decided the difference you are home free. But selling them on the difference makes them suspicious. Let them discover it. This way it is THIER conclusion not you convincing them.

Yeah this takes way more time and the gurus want you to think it won't. I'm sure one will be along to contradict everything I'm saying so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Also it is possible, and often necessary to outgrow your market.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 10:48AM)
Itís the hobbyists and part-timers that keeps magic alive and I would think that they do more good than harm to the industry as a whole.

The general buying public perceives all like businesses to be pretty well the same until they are proven wrong. And outside of Las Vegas and other tourist places magicians are no different, they all either pull rabbits from a hat or do card tricks, and thatís pretty well the perception about all the magicians they havenít seen yet, and on average they have seen very few if any. Of course good promotional material with lots of photos to change their pre-conceived image can help. Word of mouth is good but it is limited to a small area and it only comes from those who have already seen you.

But beware, in trying to be different Iím seen some businesses go so far away from the normal that they leave the demand arena. They then have to created a new demand for what looks to be a new product, and in a small area that can be very tough to do. Competition is not always a bad thing when it is creating demand. Among the competition the better wins, not necessarily the different.

Many go into business for themselves not realizing that itís a lot of marketing/sales work to it. Poor salespeople make poor business owners. Businesses close down everyday simply because having a good product alone is not enough to keep it going. It takes a lot of work in a small town to be perceived as someone that should be performing in the big cities with the superstars, but until you reach that level, you are just one of us. :)

Look the part, play the part and you will become a part.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 4, 2019 11:21AM)
Word of mouth is absolutely NOT A LIMITED to those who have seen you. This is ridiculous. People who have never had a Cuban cigar understand the standard. That is the most short sighted thing to believe and it limits success tremendously!

You can develop (And SHOULD!) a word of mouth reputation that preceeds you. This is the point of word of mouth.

People who do not own a Rolex, a Ferrari, or eaten Kobe beef know the standard because of WORD OF MOUTH.

The idea that all magicians are the same is the point of view of a hobbiest. It is simply not the reality of the situation at all.

In the real world of performance for money and to earn a living I'm sorry Tom what you just posted is very bad information. It is very limiting and causes stagnation.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 11:45AM)
Of course it is limited to those who have seen you, how will I tell others about someone I donít know? I hardly think someone seeing your show will go all over town doing your advertising for you. They may tell their 3 freinds but that's about it. You have to do a LOT of shows before word of mouth has any impact whatsoever. True it helps and it builds over time but that takes a long time. The long time professionals can depend on repeat business, others canít.

Yes in the eyes of the general public all magicians are seen different than what other magicians may see you.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 4, 2019 12:05PM)
So nobody knows about Cuban cigars but those who buy them and 3 people? How silly.

This is a very limiting viewpoint. I will tell you this. When you understand this concept better it helps with the job of being an entertainer.

You are completely misunderstanding the concept of branding and what it can do for you.

Maybe in the Daycare center magician market you are right. In the rest of the world you are just way wrong.

Please do not infect people with this ridiculous concept. It will hurt them.

YES IT TAKES TIME. But so does everything we are talking about.

The only glitch is you have to be able to do something that is worth talking about. If you are mediocre and exactly the same as everyone else and do nothing that sets you apart word of mouth does not work. As a matter of fact it works against you.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 12:19PM)
Iíve heard people say that Cuban cigars are better than the normal, but I would think it would be very, very hard for a non smoker to describe how much better it is to someone else.
Iím not sure they would even try.

But thatís just me.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 4, 2019 12:21PM)
But if a non smoker wanted to buy a gift for a smoker of cigars the word of mouth of the Cuban would have reached them.

Why do you insist on making things so difficult?

The point is Tom YOU HAVE HEARD they are better. That is the definition of word of mouth! You never have experienced one yet you have heard.

You are admitting the point I'm making is right and STILL YOU ARGUE. Why do you create these problems every thread?

Word of mouth is not only the most effective form of advertising, it is the most adorable.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 01:15PM)
Oh I completely agree that word of mouth is the best and cheapest advertising you can get. But I donít agree that it will reach enough people to make an impact for the average magician.
Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring from referrals is not the best business plan to have. All I'm saying is you have to market, market, market to get your name out. Iím sure
there are some GREAT magicians just sitting at home wondering why nobody has called


Anyway, Happy 4th of July

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 4, 2019 03:26PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle... [/quote]

I think you have identified and hit the nail on the head with several of your observations. You are correct, most performers are not professionals or carry themselves as professionals in their behaviors, operations or appearance. They havenít a clue. Few are concerned with this and fewer yet identify this and seek the knowledge and education to address and improve this. You are right, they do it for their personal interests, for fun, and maybe to make a few bucks.

As someone who has identified this such as you and your wife (is she a performer too?) this can create a great opportunity if understood and utilized properly.

Also, letís consider a few other bits of informationÖmost people do not know a professional performer or entertainer. In most peopleís mind there are only two levels of performers - the stars. celebrities or well-known (which is what they consider ďprofessionalsĒ) and then all of the others - amateurs, wannabes, hobbyists, enthusiasts, and locals. They donít understand there are several levels in between which are where the majority of workers lies.

Again, this is something I have always felt we can use to our advantage if done properly. YOU can be the one to educate them and YOU can be the ďprofessionalĒ they know personally.

While I agree with Danny that this is a process and happens over time, it is easier than ever before (previous generations) due to social media, ease of support materials, social proof, resources, communications and impressions you can make on your target area.

This also allows the true professional performer to quickly and easily rise above everyone else (competition) rather quickly and easily.

This is also where this can tie into the other recent thread of thomasR about working more shows vs. making more money per show and working less shows. If you are a local or regional performer trying to establish yourself, utilize the information I mentioned above, and setting out on the process to be the professional or top performer in your area (whether in a market of only 20 performers or 200 performers) the more shows (reach and visibility) can be the best approach. In this case is where it strongly supports the approach of working as many performances as possible, in front of as many people as possible (audience to create word of mouth and recommendations), and as many prospective clients as possible.

This is also where having a decent 2-wall arrangement can be quite beneficial to this process of establishment as well.

I have a 50 point criteria for what comprises being a professional. Most havenít a clue. But for those serious about being the top professional in your market, it can be a game-changer.

Then when you couple things like press and media, the proper business operations and strategies, and the proper professional use of social media that can make this happen much quicker than say someone starting at the same point 20 years ago.

I see all of this as an opportunity. Sure there are obstacles, and most people do not get it, but when you incorporate this into your approach and utilize this to your advantage it can actually help propel your brand and positioning.

Same for when you try to get a loan, mortgage, credit, and taxes, performers are terribly looked down upon and there is much prejudice and bias due to this ignorance. It is something I myself have been facing since a teen. It is just part of what we do. Eventually, you know youíve turned the corner when as a performer you will have access and acceptance to these as conventional people do.

I have found, and prove this over and over again to those I work with, that you can overcome this and create the desired perspective and position within your market. Use these existing mindsets and mentalities to your advantage.

I couldnít disagree more with Tomís ďLook the part, play the part and you will become a part.Ē This is more unicorns and fairydust encouragement, but worse yet it is directly the same as the ďjust fake it ítil you make itĒ mentality and approach. This rarely if ever works, and gets quite damaging when others realize you have little or no experience and it becomes more than evident. Thinking something does not make it reality or make you become the part. If anything, in my own professional experience, I have found that the performer starts believing their own BS and thinks they are something they are not. Thinking they have experience they do not. (Geez, does this sound familiar around here?) This type of encouragement is terrible advice and false encouragement. Unfortunately, I see this more today than ever before so Tom is not the only one that subscribes to this mentality and false encouragement.

I also believe business and success takes far more than just marketing as many gurus want you to believe.

I agree word of mouth is best but you can not rely on it to just happen, you have to make this happen with well-thought-out and implemented strategies. Word of mouth, while always being the best, is also not enough on its own. Other strategies, models, support and executions must also be in place.

I also think for the type of performer you are WitchDocchris you have an easier chance than if you were just another typical faceless magician in the crowd. Again, position and branding plays into performing business greatly today, probably more than ever before.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 04:10PM)
Mindpro,

Great post and I agree, word of mouth doesnít just happen on its own, which is my point. Itís only a small part of the overall marketing plan.

Also let me say, ďLook the part, play the part and you will become a partĒ doesnít have to be faking anything. Nothing wrong with doing your
very best and being as professional as you can at all times. We only become better through our habits. Iím not suggesting you fake anything.

But I will say, telling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you could give them. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 4, 2019 04:48PM)
NOBODY SAID RELY ONLY ON WORD OF MOUTH Tom. And no it is not only a small part of an overall plan.

You are about to ruin a perfectly good thread yet again by talking about things you obviously know nothing about. Please stop now if your ego will let you. Just quit please. You have missed the point completely.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 4, 2019 05:47PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
But I will say, telling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you could give them. :)

Tom [/quote]

Nobody said anything about "being themselves" as advice.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 06:35PM)
Well I donít believe I said ANYBODY said ANYTHING.

My God, you two need to get some professional help, Iíve never in my life seen such nonsense.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 4, 2019 08:26PM)
Tom you are really the one who needs professional help. You AGREE with me and give an example and then argue.

And if nobody said the things you are saying then why bring them up? Just rambling in a desperate attempt to be taken seriously?

Again I beg you just let this thread alone.

You have no experience in this decade, probably this century about what is being spoken of. Just let those of us with experience talk please. Do not continue like this.

And please stop stalking me like this.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 4, 2019 09:16PM)
Not arguing at all.
Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 4, 2019 10:22PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh I completely agree that word of mouth is the best and cheapest advertising you can get. But I donít agree that it will reach enough people to make an impact for the average magician.
Sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring from referrals is not the best business plan to have. All I'm saying is you have to market, market, market to get your name out. Iím sure
there are some GREAT magicians just sitting at home wondering why nobody has called


Anyway, Happy 4th of July

Tom [/quote]

THIS is an argument against what is being said Tom.

And since NOBODY said "sit home and wait for the phone to ring from referrals", except you of course, you are arguing against straw men you put up just to be able to argue against them. (Unless you are ascribing that bs to me, which I NEVER said. But since you claim *ahem* you are not saying I said anything you must just be arguing with yourself. WHICH DERAILS THE THREAD so please stop!)

As my father was fond of pointing out everything that precedes the word "but" is a lie.

Now please stop with the silly straw men arguments. Please stop making points against things nobody said. Please STOP derailing a perfectly good thread.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 08:08AM)
You just wonít stop will you?

Before I stop, I want to ask you about this. You bring it up often

On Jul 4, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

Maybe in the Daycare center magician market you are right. In the rest of the world you are just way wrong.
[/quote]

I take that as being another one of your slams against those that do work that market.You do it all the time and I really resent you saying that.


You have no idea what goes on in that market, and YOU JUST ASSUME that you do. Do you think those that work the daycare market works nothing else? I got news for you Danny they know ten times more about marketing than you. Some of them work Birthdays, Schools, Churches, Large Company Events and many, many, more places that you know nothing about. Most do their own marketing and has it down pat. What if I told you that one of the top corporate magicians around today help me write The Daycare Magician Book, well he did.

Iím not going to sit back any longer and let you continue making your snide rude remarks about those that do work this market. For many it is only a sideline to their many other markets they work. They understand marketing & running a business on many levels. You need to stop trying to raise yourself up above all those that work a different market than you. Youíre no better than the rest.

In fact Danny you are the one that knows very little about marketing other than the little job you have. You work the same show at the same place every night. I bet you punch a clock, get paid by the hour, and hope enough people come in to make some decent tips. THAT IS NOT MARKETING. You donít make calls, mail letters, and do business on a daily basis like most working magicians do. You shouldnít even be posting in this section about business & marketing, maybe the working for tips section would be best for you. Go up there and derail the threads like you do here where all you do is put others down. Get over yourself Danny. Or better yet buy my book and find out how real magicians make a living. And Then come back here and talk about marketing, maybe then you will know what you're talking about.

Plainly put, youíre No Superstar Marketing Expert Danny and you need to stop acting like you are and stop putting others down. It only makes you look like a bigger jerk.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 09:14AM)
Tom you are so angry and it is blinding you. Nobody cares about your little daycare book.

But really Tom get a grip please and settle down. I'll splain here so you maybe are not so "resentful".

I NEVER said I know thing one about your little daycare market. I have said many times YOU are the expert in that market. I have said many times I have NO CLUE about it. I do not assume I know anything about it and I have admitted it MANY MANY times Tom. For you to be so angry and resentful about something you yourself made up that I said is simply not right Tom. Maybe this comprehension mishap can explain a lot of what your problem is.

You can take it as a slam against those who work that market, but it is simply a fact. Working that market has NOTHING To do with working the rest of the world, and I don't care WHO helped you write your little book. I bet if he showed up here he would be embarrassed by your lack of knowledge.

It is very funny how you claim I know nothing about you but make assumptions, and yet you go make a bunch of incorrect ones about me. I am not going to bother to correct them for you as they are HILARIOUS to watch. But again even IF what you said was true, the fact is Tom I am out working and you are not and never have. You failed at being a performer and everything you ever did and now want to sit back as an older person and pretend you had some sort of glory days on the internet. Show us one review, one video of one show from THIS DECADE Tom. If not then just PLEASE STOP like you implied above.

I am not slamming those who work that market. You made that up again so please stop. Those who work that market are WORKING, unlike you.

So Tom just because you are wrong doesn't mean you should be angry. Just listen and learn. Your decades old theories just don't work.

You notice how this thread started with the WitchdocChris asking about something I said. So let those of us talk who are in the market. When it is daycare I'll never talk. When it is about never being a performer and such that is your time to shine.

No need for name calling Tom. Do I have to call the mods? LOL.

Simply acknowledging your level is not putting you down Tom. It is simply the truth. Sorry you resent it so much. But if you stop making up nonsense and straw man arguments and believing them you will be better off. I don't know why you want to be so imaginary angry at me but it is getting tiresome. You derail almost every thread in order to push your agenda of anger and it is just exhausting. You may want to ask yourself why YOU are so angry Tom? What is it Tom? Jealousy?

Your anger is clouding your perception Tom. Try being less angry at me and just reading what I write.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 09:32AM)
Danny, What specific market are you talking about working?

We have very specific markets and we have general markets and itís those general markets that we so often talk about here.

But anyway the OP was about being professional in whatever market youíre in.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 5, 2019 09:32AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
I take that as being another one of your slams against those that do work that market.You do it all the time and I really resent you saying that.


You have no idea what goes on in that market, and YOU JUST ASSUME that you do. Do you think those that work the daycare market works nothing else? I got news for you Danny they know ten times more about marketing than you. Some of them work Birthdays, Schools, Churches, Large Company Events and many, many, more places that you know nothing about. Most do their own marketing and has it down pat. What if I told you that one of the top corporate magicians around today help me write The Daycare Magician Book, well he did.

Iím not going to sit back any longer and let you continue making your snide rude remarks about those that do work this market. For many it is only a sideline to their many other markets they work. They understand marketing & running a business on many levels. You need to stop trying to raise yourself up above all those that work a different market than you. Youíre no better than the rest.

In fact Danny you are the one that knows very little about marketing other than the little job you have. You work the same show at the same place every night. I bet you punch a clock, get paid by the hour, and hope enough people come in to make some decent tips. THAT IS NOT MARKETING. You donít make calls, mail letters, and do business on a daily basis like most working magicians do. You shouldnít even be posting in this section about business & marketing, maybe the working for tips section would be best for you. Go up there and derail the threads like you do here where all you do is put others down. Get over yourself Danny. Or better yet buy my book and find out how real magicians make a living. And Then come back here and talk about marketing, maybe then you will know what you're talking about.

Plainly put, youíre No Superstar Marketing Expert Danny and you need to stop acting like you are and stop putting others down. It only makes you look like a bigger jerk.

Tom [/quote]

Wow, this is the biggest derailment I've seen here in a long time. Why don't you just start your own threads Tom if you have so much to say?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 09:40AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, What specific market are you talking about working?

We have very specific markets and we have general markets and itís those general markets that we so often talk about here.

But anyway the OP was about being professional in whatever market youíre in.

Tom [/quote]

I thought you were going to stop?

You just can't can you?

You have taken yet another thread and dragged it off into the swamp and drown it. Wow. Why do you do this Tom? Can we PLEASE stay on topic?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 09:52AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:


I thought you were going to stop?

You just can't can you?

You have taken yet another thread and dragged it off into the swamp and drown it. Wow. Why do you do this Tom? Can we PLEASE stay on topic? [/quote]

Then stop changing the topic Danny.

Stop saying the 'little' daycare market is completely different from ALL THE REST when you clearly say you know nothing about it. How do you know it is different if you know nothing about it?

Anyway I will stop now. And from now on if youíre concerned about derailing a thread, just donít post calling me out with your nonsense. Why can't you allow me one post without you responding
to it and that would end all the back and forth. I know you don't belive it but readers here are smart enough to listen to all opinion, they don't need you policing the place.

Get you some help Danny.

Take Care

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 10:12AM)
IT IS completely different from all the rest Tom. Each market is actually pretty unique and poses unique challenges.

First thing needed is an understanding of basic terms like "word of mouth" and how they apply. Then you need to be able to read and comprehend things that are said. (Yes these types of skills transfer to all markets.)

Tom the ridiculous back and forth starts with you saying something ridiculous. It would stop if you didn't post stuff like that and if you didn't make up things people said. Oh and if you ONLY posted about things you had experience in it would also stop.

I bet you are not done though.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 10:23AM)
Witchdocchris I have to say I sort of agree/disagree with mindpro.

YES social media gives us a way to kind of speed along the process of getting it can also hurt more than it can help.

Here is sort of my point in a round about way. The internet is FOREVER. Once it is out there, it is out there. Getting known at the start of your career and doing things and such puts it out there for everyone to see forever. If done too much as a campaign when you start it is possible to get frozen in that for a long period of time making growth not so easy.

People need to be able to grow into a career. Re branding is NOT as easy as it once was in some ways.

In some ways the internet has sped people to an apparent level that they are not quite at yet and causes some disparity in what they are able to offer vs what they seem to be able to offer according to their online profile.

The absolute BIGGEST thing about marketing is that once you show up to do the thing, you have to be able to over deliver. If you OVER SELL to get the gig and use tech to make yourself look more than you are to get the gig then when you show up it will be a disappointing experience for the client and THAT is what will hurt your image more than anything. The word of mouth about THAT will really hurt.

Also it used to be said everyone knows 20 people. With social media this is exponential. This is why word of mouth is even MORE important than ever in our day and age. (This should be common sense.)

So while it is "easier than ever" to get the ball rolling, it is also easier than ever to mess it up on a grand scale.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 5, 2019 12:54PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Witchdocchris I have to say I sort of agree/disagree with mindpro.

YES social media gives us a way to kind of speed along the process of getting it can also hurt more than it can help. [/quote]

I completely agree. When I was saying it is easier than ever before or from previous generations, I meant more in terms of websites, online promotional materials, videos, and social media in terms of as resources.

Just like when we discuss many topics here it is all based on once you have a true, market-ready performance, well-rehearsed, tweaked, polished, and firmly in place.

The exact same goes for social media or as Danny says, it can and will be out there forever and can terribly work against you. I so see many out there prematurely and not knowing what they're doing from a business perspective. This is exactly why I frown on the use of social media until it properly fits in with one's business model and just like your show, promo, sales performance, and everything else in your business operation is ready to follow suit are all market-ready. Anything less than that usually can work against you.

We don't talk about it much around here but doing things in the right and proper sequential order is most important, and nowhere is that more evident than social media and in the online world. That's also why those gurus that taught an "easy, hand-off approach" all based on online and social media marketing will likely work or turn against them at some point in the future.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 01:23PM)
OK I guess I disagree less than I thought.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 01:49PM)
Seems to me that social media marketing can be applied to ANY market. I see everything from the smallest kidshow to huge illusion shows being marketed there every day. Those that donít have a social media platform are behind from the get go nowadays. Thatís the new business card. But it all goes back to what I said early, ďTelling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you can give them.Ē Unless you have a very good likeable personality you probably donít need your potential business clients seeing behind the scenes.


I can remember a short time ago when some of the young social media experts were being heckled and run off from here with the idea that it was a waste of time. Times change fast I guess. It's certainly needed today for most.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 5, 2019 01:54PM)
Completely disagree. Your take on things amazes me.

You said "I can remember a short time ago when some of the young social media experts were being heckled and run off from here with the idea that it was a waste of time."

I've been around here a long time and I don't remember this at all.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 02:03PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Seems to me that social media marketing can be applied to ANY market. I see everything from the smallest kidshow to huge illusion shows being marketed there every day. Those that donít have a social media platform are behind from the get go nowadays. Thatís the new business card. But it all goes back to what I said early, ďTelling some people to just be themselves is the worst advice you can give them.Ē Unless you have a very good likeable personality you probably donít need your potential business clients seeing behind the scenes.


I can remember a short time ago when some of the young social media experts were being heckled and run off from here with the idea that it was a waste of time. Times change fast I guess. It's certainly needed today for most.

Tom [/quote]

Is this you stopping Tom?

You have not even done a show since the inception of Facebook or social media. You have no personal experience with the ins and outs of how to effectively use it.

Why don't you show us those posts of people being run off telling then it is a waste of time? If you can't then it never happened. Maybe the WAY they were using it was a waste of time. But nobody said social media was a waste of time as a tool.

And I hate to tell you Tom but I can name SEVERAL very successful performers in many markets who have almost no social media platform. Just because you have an inability to do so in no way means it is not possible.

Really. STOP PLEASE. You make stuff up. Won't your ego let you stop even when you said you will?

You say ridiculous things like this and then wonder why you get corrected constantly.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 02:09PM)
Edit PS:

Like most people I rarely buy anything new nowadays without first checking Facebook and Google. I see some with only contact information, but thatís not bad and it is better than nothing. If I donít find anything, I wonder what the problem is.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 02:14PM)
Tom it is not the same as buying a physical product.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 02:25PM)
Of course it is, even more so with a service business or any place run mainly by an individual. Certainly a magician would fit in that category.
That would be the very first place a buyer would look. I just checked to find a service person this morning. The old phone book has been replaced Danny.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 02:29PM)
You have posted so many times again after saying you will stop.

Who said anything about a phone book but YOU Tom? Do you believe that when a phone book existed it was something I used to market Tom? You are creating straw man arguments and FURTHER DERAILING THIS. My lord Tom if we give you a thread where I PROMISE not to post will you please let the adults speak?

Keep showing how clueless you are. OR STOP like you said you would!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 02:40PM)
How do they get in touch with you Danny. They know you so well they just drop by your house? I donít think all the readers here are that famous.

Now please stop changing the topic, its not about me or you. Do you even know what the topic is?


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 02:48PM)
TOM STOP. PLEASE.

You have dragged this topic so far afield it is ridiculous. You mention phone books, and attack me and get angry because you are jealous and it is just tiresome. You do not know what you are talking about. STOP asking questions about my business model because they are not relevant. Then you accuse ME of changing the topic! Do you even read what you write? I mean I know almost nobody pays attention to your ramblings but I thought at least you might.

Why do you claim you are going to stop posting when you keep doing it? Your follow through is really sad Tom. I get it. You are old and are desperate to be taken seriously. But sorry you are not relevant. It is not my fault you have very old information that was probably wrong when you acquired it. But can you PLEASE just stop making yourself look SO bad?

If you want to know about how I have done and do business start another thread or send me a PM. Don't keep doing this please.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 03:06PM)
Yes I shouldíve stopped but I got a very funny message early this morning on facebook from a well known magician sayingÖ..

ďGiveíem hell Tom over on the Cafť, donít let those two comics run you off like they have so many others.Ē


But seriously I will stop now. Now be nice people are watching.

You can now explain exactly how people can get in touch with you without using the internet or a phone.
(Youíve said both were not needed) You can do it without any interruptions. Have at it.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 03:21PM)
Another message from an imaginary friend. HILARIOUS. So you intentionally derail perfectly good threads just to keep getting attention? I am so glad we all now have this information because it explains a LOT about your erratic behavior. I thought it might be age. Isn't it funny how these "well known magicians" you always talk about never come here to defend you but do it privately?

I don't think I ever said the phone or the internet were not needed to get in touch with people Tom. YOU said that.

Show me where I said a phone and internet were not needed. Show me where I said it Tom. Go ahead. Your comprehension skills are lacking I'll say.

I have to tell you that your lack of ability to comprehend the written word I would not send a child to your daycare center.

Hopefully you really ARE done. I hope you don't hear from another imaginary friend or some such thing that tells you to act like this. Although Tom if you keep hearing voices like this and they are telling you to do things you may want to get it looked into.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jul 5, 2019 04:04PM)
Danny, Mindpro... after reading this thread I live in constant amazement at your patience and stamina at what seems like at times... banging your head into a wall. I can only thank you for all of the working pros that appreciate your desire to educate and enlighten. As a wonderful directer friend of mine always said... "There are people who get it and people who don't. Try to stay with the ones that get it, you'll be a lot less frustrated!"
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 5, 2019 04:41PM)
Yes, I agree there is such a thing as those that get it and those that don't (I have always said and believe this and it is proven correct each and every day in our business) but here I believe this is something much different. It is a group of like-minded people, doing the same like-minded thing, operating in the same or very similar like-minded space, vs. someone who is not currently any of these things yet believes their thoughts and opinions are somehow the same and relevant as those that are actually doing this.

This is the major source of frustration in almost every one of Danny's exchanges. Most here, in this forum, in particular, are current working performers or on their paths to doing so. They are all "on the same page," coming from the same interests, often expressing the same concerns or problems. Then someone tries to chime in not being any of these things yet somehow wants and thinks his contributions are the same. They aren't and that what Danny continues to point out.

At one time or another many of us including Danny and myself have come right out and asked why Tom posts to these discussions and topics that do not pertain to him and we have never received a direct answer. Once I believe I received that he thinks this is just a place to chat with "friends' and shoot the bull, and offer opinions. We have at one time or another tried to explain that is not the case here that most that frequent this, whether they actually post or just lurk, are interested in learning or seeking actual specific information as it pertains directly to their business and income. Tom doesn't seem to get or want to accept this. In that sense, I get your point about not dealing with people here who "do not get it."

I get these types of PMs and emails almost daily, sometimes multiple times a day, asking me why this continues to happen? I haven't the answers. I try to refer people to express their feelings here about this on the forum, but because Tom is an older, nice guy (except to Danny), no one wants to go there, yet they almost all say they are thankful that Danny (and I occasionally) goes there and "takes the bullet" for us all.

I hate the derailments too. It causes threads and topics to lose positive momentum. Just when threads are interesting, gaining momentum and becoming quite interesting we all know it, we all wait for it...and then it happens, he posts and we know most of the great discussion will not continue. Yes, it is so frustrating. Occasionally another agenda-based person will chime in with his pop-in support of this agenda-based behavior, but as we all also know, they too are just continuing their own agenda. I must say much of this has been cleaned up recently and it has been so nice to see actual decent topics and threads once again such as this one, the Quality Vs. Volume Of Shows, Your Business Impression, Protecting Your Brand, Rack Cards, and the continuation of others.

Great advice Ray about staying with the ones that "get it." Unfortunately, it's the ones that don't get it that need the help the most and we are most inclined to try to assist.

I do thank you, Ray, for speaking up as I truly believe in Tom's mind (and of course his friends too) that he believes it is just Danny and me who feel this way.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 05:04PM)
Mindpro. I am one of the nicest you would ever want to meet. I go out of my way to try and be nice to everyone. But I can only take so much hitting before I start hitting back ten times harder. I have asked Danny many times to simply ignore my post and I would only have to post once in a thread. But he flat out canít do it. He loves the back and forth and begs for it. This thread is about acting like a professional and I have watched him share his experience in doing the opposite of that. I have nothing to lose; he will be the first to tell you I am not a professional. He will stop with me or I will cause him to have a nervous breakdown, itís his choice. Honestly I donít think he is man enough to just stop and ignore a single post of mine. It is sad. See who the next person that posts here, watch him come running. If he doesn't I will stop.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 05:08PM)
Thank you Ray.

It seems as if there is only one intentionally disruptive force here any more but he likes to work overtime.

It is just shocking to me why anyone would want to act like this. I mean showing a COMPLETE lack of knowledge on so many levels on so many subjects and continuing ONLY with the intention of being disruptive because some imaginary friend on Facebook said to. And then to come here and flat out tell the story as if somehow that makes it alright. It would be funny if it wasn't just so sad.

I mean the sheer number of posts is staggering devoted to this type of trolling. At least NOW he has come out and admitted it so we see what we already knew.

The frustrating part for me is that if anyone listens to the crazy crap said it will cost them money. LOTS of money and standing and such.

To be so angry that you just can't see past getting even or whatever crazy agenda that is made up in the head is impossible for me to understand. I get that everyone can have an opinion. But that doesn't mean it should be expressed and if it is expressed you should be ready for someone to tell you what they think of it. Otherwise don't post it on a public forum. But to be so consistently WRONG about absolutely everything and still feel some compulsion to have to keep going at it just boggles the mind.

Yes it takes patience, as we have seen in this and a few current threads. It is like talking at the grown up table at Thanksgiving and ONE little kid is jumping up and down and interrupting and screaming look at me look at me I am important too!

But instead of sitting back and LEARNING and reading and asking we get sarcasm, nastiness and just crazy things made up out of whole cloth just to feel relevant. Hopefully it stops soon. Maybe his imaginary friends will tell him to stop derailing threads.

One reason I don't let it go is because I think it is important to not let bad information get out there. Also when this craziness finally stops it will be such a relief, I want to be around to see it! Hopefully he sees it and stops.

There are enough who "get it". Also everyone has a purpose, even if to serve as a bad example. In a lot of ways it can actually help some. I have actually gotten PM's from people saying that the crazy stuff said actually brings up a valid point that they might not have thought of. A pitfall they may have fallen into if it had not been mentioned.

Now mind you I believe that this would come out in the normal course of adult discussion and it is not necessary to have the crazy element to accomplish this. But it is still a positive side effect.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 05:14PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro. I am one of the nicest you would ever want to meet. I go out of my way to try and be nice to everyone. But I can only take so much hitting before I start hitting back ten times harder. I have asked Danny many times to simply ignore my post and I would only have to post once in a thread. But he flat out canít do it. He loves the back and forth and begs for it. This thread is about acting like a professional and I have watched him share his experience in doing the opposite of that. I have nothing to lose; he will be the first to tell you I am not a professional. He will stop with me or I will cause him to have a nervous breakdown, itís his choice. Honestly I donít think he is man enough to just stop and ignore a single post of mine. It is sad. See who the next person that posts here, watch him come running. If he doesn't I will stop.


Tom [/quote]

So you went to Facebook and got together with your imaginary friends and came up with this approach? HILARIOUS. Not "man enough" LOL. Now it is a measuring contest?

No Tom you won't give me a nervous breakdown. You are ruining this section and it is about time the mods got involved I think. Your agenda has been clear from the start, but now you have put it out there. Everyone sees you for the troll you are.

The thing you don't get is you are not doing anything but hurting OTHERS, not me. But you are right about one thing. When I see something so wrong, I just can't HELP but post.

YOU are right also. You have nothing to lose and are not a professional. I am happy to see you admit it. I think you are having delusions of grandeur thinking I will have a breakdown LOL. All you do is make yourself look silly. You have shown you can't stop posting even after many times saying you are going to. It is sad.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 5, 2019 05:17PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro. I am one of the nicest you would ever want to meet. I go out of my way to try and be nice to everyone. But I can only take so much hitting before I start hitting back ten times harder.
Tom [/quote]

Tom, I said you were a nice guy (in my last post!) However, you just don't see that it is you that creates this, I'm sorry. Your posts on subjects you know nothing about or that do not pertain to you is just baiting and asking for these types of responses. You're not kidding anybody here. Danny is simply reacting or responding to your posts and often misinformation.

If you weren't an older, nice guy, trust me, this would have been posted to the moderators/management long ago.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 05:23PM)
I was right, I Rest My Case.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 05:38PM)
Another member pointed this out to me. Seems appropriate.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d696t3yALAY
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 5, 2019 06:47PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, Mindpro wrote:

Tom, I said you were a nice guy (in my last post!) However, you just don't see that it is you that creates this, I'm sorry. Your posts on subjects you know nothing about or that do not pertain to you is just baiting and asking for these types of responses. You're not kidding anybody here. Danny is simply reacting or responding to your posts and often misinformation.

If you weren't an older, nice guy, trust me, this would have been posted to the moderators/management long ago. [/quote]


Mindpro,

What misinformation have I given in this thread? What Ďunknowní market that I have no experience in are we really talking about here? Do you really expect me to believe you have direct experience in everything you speak about? I donít and I donít expect you to have it. Related experiences CAN be counted as experience. For example, I fix things around the house all the time by simply using general handyman knowledge. We donít have to be experts to do things or to have a good opinion about the subject.

I canít tell you the number of jobs in different industries Iíve had over my lifetime. I have owned something like 17 different businesses over the past 25 years. I have earned several local business awards. Iíve won a few national sales awards when I was in sales. I made the million dollar club when I worked with Woodmen of the World insurance. Iíve done magic for more than 50 years, several years as a fulltime magician; I was a stage magician as well as a kidshow magician. Iíve helped many young magicians get started in magic. Helped a few professionals with my daycare market book. I could go on and on and I donít say this to brag, not at all, just to simply let you know that I have a wide range of knowledge that may be applied to most any business situation.

So please donít discount everything I say about doing business because you don't agree with me, I just may know a little something you don't. I certainly donít question all your posts and I often do say well said. But there is nothing wrong with disagreeing. I can gladly say I just disagree and move on, if given the chance.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 5, 2019 09:16PM)
That total is down from 27 businesses you claimed to own before.

Nobody wants your imaginary resume.

What bad information? A complete lack of understanding of word of mouth for one.

Are we supposed to just pretend you didn't admit to being a huge troll just because someone on Facebook told you to? Nobody is forgetting Tom. You derail threads on purpose. You owe a lot of people an apology.

Make no mistake your information is discounted simply on merit. If you don't line being shown why you are wrong, don't be wrong so much.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jul 6, 2019 03:02AM)
Tom, you do seem like a nice guy but this isn't about our individual personalities but instead about our history and legacy we leave here. The Magic Cafť is such a unique forum. The problem is that it will outlive all of us as a resource tool. If there is a concept, philosophy or lesson submitted on here and not debated or refuted, it will then go on to be accepted as fact for anyone in the future that comes on here to research it. If I post something on here that is my opinion but not an accepted fact in the larger community, I should be called on it so as not to leave that misinformation lingering on here for magicians to discover and later accept as a universal truth. If this was simply an ephemeral chat that would dissipate into the ether, opinions could be dispatched with less concern. Unfortunately there are so many that might lurk on here as a means of education and find it difficult to navigate these threads at times with so many seemingly equal yet conflicting statements. That's the reason there are judges in courts, professors teaching school and moderators in discussions in an attempt to help assign weight to differing opinions based on experience and background. If we were just chatting in a bar, everyone gets equal weight, but in a forum that is a learning amalgam with the desire to help others grow... we have to find a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. Everyone has value and is an important member of this community. When it comes to giving advice that will stay here for an eternity, I have to be more discriminating in who I listen to. I'm very fortunate that I know so many amazing masters in this business and can easily decipher the weight to which I assign advice from varying sources. Others might not be as lucky. I am thankful we have this forum and even more so for the people on here that I have found to be leaders and world class sources of knowledge and advice. They might not always be perfect but I know that their opinions come from years of real world experience and mastery that allows me to accept it with the weight it deserves. I'm sorry if I sidetracked the thread... but sometimes my mind just has to unwind and digest what is happening and verbalizing assists in this process. Just my $.02!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2019 06:07AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Do you really expect me to believe you have direct experience in everything you speak about?
Tom [/quote]

Absolutely! Do you think I would spend the time on posting at length and in such detail about something I can not speak on first hand from experience and with authority? This is absolutely crazy. This was exactly why I was asked to be here as I was the only one here with legitimate professional industry experience in all 8 main areas of the industry.

It is so far fetched and absurd for me to even imagine you would think I or anyone would post and spend so much time, for so many years on so many different and specific industry topics, on or about something without having extensive knowledge and experience - this is just crazy to me.

And no, none of it is based on my "opinions" but rather professional industry experience.

Just by your above post it is easy to see you really just do not get it. This is exactly what others are talking about on every level. For some reason, you think this is just offering personal opinions here. No, it is offering professional advice and as Danny said, it is also calling out misinformation, incorrect information, poor advice, or opinion being passed off as fact. It's also about offering specific industry advice, answers and information, not decades-old, outdated, general or generic information, not offering conventional surface business advice that was at best surface-level content, and likely ineffective even back then. General information or encouragement of any kind is in no way a substitute for actual experience and specific industry knowledge and experience. That what performers come here for.

As for the rest of your above post, I will be happy to address everything you mentioned if you start another thread (or maybe I will) as not to derail this one any further. Again, there is so much misinformation and misinterpretation in your post, it is astounding. This is really at the root of everything - you do no see, think, or accept in the proper context but in an adapted made-up way of way of your own. You state and refer to things never said or way out of place, then argue to defend this. As said, this helps no one and only derails nearly every single thread and offers extremely confusing information in this forum for others to see for years to come.

As Ray said, this is a place of information and education for most that come here and for those that will utilize this resource in the future.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 06:22AM)
Hey Ray,

Donít worry about sidetracking the topic, if we stayed on topic here it would be a miracle. LOL

I donít blame you for listening to people you trust, I like to do the same. This would not be a helpful place if we all came here to simply say I agree with whatever is being said. Debating is good; it can bring out the best in us as well as provide good/better answers. Sometimes we even find there are two different solutions to one problem. It shouldnít always be well this is the ONLY way to do it. This place is for proving a good choice of opinions, not necessarily a how to section. And it certainly shouldnít be a place for bullies to come and demand that there is only one way. In some situations I trust the readers to be the judge in what and who they want to believe. Options are good. Different stokes for different folks as they say.

I have absolutely no problem with others disagreeing with my opinion and like I have said many times. I will gladly say I am wrong when it is shown that I am. But what I wonít accept is being told you are wrong simply because I say so now shut up. I donít like being called a liar while my name is being slandered in a belittling way.

Iíll be happy to debate anybody when itís done in a respectable way. I wonít however put up with being bullied in such a childish way. Show me where I am wrong and I will admit it, I have no problem with that. Heck Iím been wrong many times, and I would be a fool to think that I wonít be again.


Thanks Ray


Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 07:22AM)
Mindpro,

Like many on here I donít even know your name. And you expect me to believe everything you say. Do you really expect me to trust your information based on what you say and without you providing any hard evidence. Why should I do that? For all I know you may be some 12 year old locked up in your bedroom. NO I donít believe that and I have never demanded you provide proof. You know why I havenít done that, because I can read an OPINION and then decide for myself if I want to trust it. Yes everything you say, and even more so with you than others, is just an OPINION. There are no verifiable facts to back up anything you say. It is an OPINION. So please don't give me this we don't allow opioions here.

So are opinions based on verifiable experience, nope not with you, we can believe you or we cannot. Isnít that true?

Same thing with me, others can choose to believe me or not. Can't they? True I may not write long posts like you do explaining my point, but Iím not the bragging type so I just remain a man of few words as they say.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 07:28AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
That total is down from 27 businesses you claimed to own before. [/quote]

Danny, I may have counted a couple of chains as one. I know I owned several Fun Shops that I always count as one. But the count is no big deal. You can believe what you want.
The point is I do have business experience in more than just one area.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2019 08:02AM)
Tom, I hope you feel better getting this off of your chest, but once again another great example of wrong and incorrect information.

I do not post opinions, you are once again wrong (here's another example you asked for), I post knowledge from experience. If you can not understand that based on years of my posts and contributions you do have a comprehension problem. Again, more misinformation (based only on your opinion) being perpetuated by you.

People have nicely and delicately tried to explain your problem and all you do is deflect everything, twist it entirely out of context, and have the gall to call the very people trying to delicately explain this to you, bullies. It is an insult to us and all of the people trying to help you to understand.

Also, we are NOT here to debate, we are here to assist, help, and learn. I do think you think this is an area for debate. No, there are other forums for that, this is definitely a forum for education, information, experience, and facts.

No one needs to verify anything to you, as your lack of knowledge and experience speaks for itself. The rest is a you-problem, if you don't understand Danny's wildly successful career headlining shows in two countries simultaneously and probably earning more money than most here will earn in a lifetime, and my extensive career in many aspects of the entertainment business, this is a you-problem. It is also the root for all of your incorrect views and perceptions. It only goes worse form there. (Btw, if you are only are willing to learn from those you know, you are greatly limiting yourself and you are terribly missing out on so much, which also may explain a lot.)

As Danny says, please stop your insatiable desire to be seen and heard and these attempts to be taken seriously that only seem to discredit you even more.

Let the others that have knowledge and experience speak and share. Learn to be a spectator if the topic and specific information being discussed is something in which you have no direct or current experience. Years-old general businesses information is not the same and what is being sought here.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 08:54AM)
You right, in your mind it is not an opinion, in mine and all those that donít know you it is.


So let me just sit over here and watch.


Got it.

Have a good weekend.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 6, 2019 09:29AM)
My lord what is the over/under on his next post?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 09:33AM)
Actually, when I think about it, I rarely suggest anything here, Iím to busy beating mindpro and Danny off my back.
Thatís the wrong information that they speak about, and causes so much distraction.

Notice they never say exactly what I actually said. Itís if I say it, it is wrong. Even when I agree it is wrong
because I have no experience in all the unspoken stuff. Funny in a way.


Anyway and I promise to stop. Chris I'm sorry for my part in the big distrction here.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 6, 2019 10:04AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Jul 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
That total is down from 27 businesses you claimed to own before. [/quote]

Danny, I may have counted a couple of chains as one. I know I owned several Fun Shops that I always count as one. But the count is no big deal. You can believe what you want.
The point is I do have business experience in more than just one area.


Tom [/quote]

And nobody cares about it Tom.

See this is not about you. As HARD as it is for you to imagine. It is about the people asking questions.

You're hurting them by intentionally trolling and derailing threads to sit back and make yourself feel better about life. Why not have your imaginary friend come here and admit he told you to derail this so nobody can talk? More posts here are trying to get you to be am adult than learning. People try to be reasonable but you just won't it happen.

You NEVER A ADMIT you're wrong. I showed you about word of mouth and you deflect and mis represent what I say and make things up in a DESPERATE attempt to cover top being absolutely wrong. This is the problem. So much is not opinion but fact.

Tom people are not going to take toy seriously because you owned a store that is no longer in operation. As of the past few decades your information is nothing but guru apeak rah rah nonsense.

Now Ray has tried to get you to stop nicely. Please do not continue the Wimp Lo routine. Yes it is funny but it really is hurting. And again you need to apologize to EVERYONE for trolling. You have intentionally derailed this thread and many others. You finally admitted it out of anger so now you need to step up and apologize.

Not your half hearted nonsense like above. You intentionally did this so be a man and admit that.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2019 10:17AM)
Stop! Tom, Stop now for your own good. You are making yourself look worse and desperate to be heard and taken seriously.

This is about to turn ugly so please stop.

As I said, if you want to start your own thread please, you are welcome do so and let this one get back on track. We are all waiting for the OP to return and get his response on the detailed information offered on this topic. Obviously, the derailment has discouraged him from returning to his own topic. Just stop and let the professionals and interested performers continue this discussion.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 10:17AM)
Danny, I have to respond because I clearly said word of mouth is good and it is the cheapest advertizing you can get. I also agreed with you that it can also work against you.
But I guess you didnít see it because you were too busy telling everyone how old, inexperience and outdated I am.

Oh well. I guess we all see what we want to see,

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 6, 2019 10:43AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Actually, when I think about it, I rarely suggest anything here, Iím to busy beating mindpro and Danny off my back.
Thatís the wrong information that they speak about, and causes so much distraction.

Notice they never say exactly what I actually said. Itís if I say it, it is wrong. Even when I agree it is wrong
because I have no experience in all the unspoken stuff. Funny in a way.


Anyway and I promise to stop. Chris I'm sorry for my part in the big distrction here.

Tom [/quote]
My God Tom ONLY YOU would refer to having the experience and ability to do the very thing being talked about as "the unspoken stuff". These delusions run pretty deep. But just to show you you are wrong, so you can admit it, here you go. I am going to show you ME saying EXACTLY what you said and why it is wrong. (The "funny in a way" thing is your inability to comprehend what is written. Even if it is YOU who writes it! Oh and you run a daycare center to help develop kids. WOW irony is fun.)

"Word of mouth is absolutely NOT A LIMITED to those who have seen you. This is ridiculous. People who have never had a Cuban cigar understand the standard. That is the most short sighted thing to believe and it limits success tremendously!

You can develop (And SHOULD!) a word of mouth reputation that preceeds you. This is the point of word of mouth.

People who do not own a Rolex, a Ferrari, or eaten Kobe beef know the standard because of WORD OF MOUTH.

The idea that all magicians are the same is the point of view of a hobbiest. It is simply not the reality of the situation at all.

In the real world of performance for money and to earn a living I'm sorry Tom what you just posted is very bad information. It is very limiting and causes stagnation."

That was me addressing YOU claiming word of mouth only reaches those who see you. Then it continued. (Without you EVER admitting you're wrong.) So you said this Tom.

"Of course it is limited to those who have seen you, how will I tell others about someone I donít know? I hardly think someone seeing your show will go all over town doing your advertising for you. They may tell their 3 freinds but that's about it. You have to do a LOT of shows before word of mouth has any impact whatsoever. True it helps and it builds over time but that takes a long time. The long time professionals can depend on repeat business, others canít.

Yes in the eyes of the general public all magicians are seen different than what other magicians may see you.

Tom" OK so you have taken a very strong opinion point of view, which is HILARIOUSLY wrong. So I then ANSWERED YOU.

"So nobody knows about Cuban cigars but those who buy them and 3 people? How silly.

This is a very limiting viewpoint. I will tell you this. When you understand this concept better it helps with the job of being an entertainer.

You are completely misunderstanding the concept of branding and what it can do for you.

Maybe in the Daycare center magician market you are right. In the rest of the world you are just way wrong.

Please do not infect people with this ridiculous concept. It will hurt them.

YES IT TAKES TIME. But so does everything we are talking about.

The only glitch is you have to be able to do something that is worth talking about. If you are mediocre and exactly the same as everyone else and do nothing that sets you apart word of mouth does not work. As a matter of fact it works against you."

Mind you Tom this would be SO much easier if you could just read the thread YOURSELF and not keep trolling because you are angry. But I can continue with examples from this and almost EVERY OTHER thread you post in to show you that I do answer you DIRECTLY. YOU then go and make up stuff like you just did that is so easily refutable. You are not just so busy keeping us off your back, you are just so busy trying to think up a bad excuse for a crazy post. Then instead of LEARNING, you get so wound up in "I am entitled to my opinion" that you go over to Facebook to find some imaginary friends to get you encouraged to start trolling. You have posted at LEAST 24 times in this topic and most of those to troll! At least 14 of those were AFTER you first said you would stop!

And of course let's not forget the problem here Tom. Your imaginary friends on Facebook.
"Yes I shouldíve stopped but I got a very funny message early this morning on facebook from a well known magician sayingÖ..

ďGiveíem hell Tom over on the Cafť, donít let those two comics run you off like they have so many others.Ē


But seriously I will stop now. Now be nice people are watching.

You can now explain exactly how people can get in touch with you without using the internet or a phone.
(Youíve said both were not needed) You can do it without any interruptions. Have at it.


Tom"

Oh and yet another threat from you to stop being this way.

And as for your post above Tom your "agreement" always involves the word "but". Again as I pointed out (And your comprehension skills really need some work.) ignore everything before the word "but". You agree BUT, is not agreement Tom. It is a contradiction. That is where you go wrong. I know you are just so mad that you are not taken seriously but that is just the way it is Tom. "The unspoken" stuff IS WHAT EXPERIENCE IS. You have been farting into the same couch cushion for 3 decades and your experience in this is just not what it once was. IF IT EVER WAS. Your problem is that you believe everyone here is exactly like you with no experience just talking about old days that may or may not have happened. Sorry Tom but EVERYONE else in the thread so far literally is out RIGHT AT THIS TIME IN THEIR LIVES working performance art! Not dreaming about it but working it on a fairly successful level. You have never done it and do not know what it takes.

I do not know how to do kids shows. Have you EVER seen me post about doing one? NO and you never will. Because I know enough to know my opinion about it, though I may have some "related" experience, means almost NOTHING. So my lord Tom PLEASE for your own image just stop posting.

We all know you will NEVER admit you are wrong. But really now that you have admitted you are intentionally derailing threads for your own pleasure nobody buys the "nice guy" thing. You are blinded by anger. We want to have occasional adult discussions here and you don't help when you do this at all. Worse yet my PM box gets filled up because people don't want to wade through the nonsense that you put up just to find some of the gold that is in the threads. You are HURTING the young guys or new older guys wanting to learn. We know your agenda and that of your imaginary friends on Facebook. Now please stop.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 10:50AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Oh I completely agree that word of mouth is the best and cheapest advertising you can get. But I donít agree that it will reach enough people to make an impact for the average magician.

Tom [/quote]

The reason I say that is the ďAverageĒ magician is not well known like a Cuban Cigar or a brand like Nike. It takes a huge advertising budget to reach that level, something the average magician doesnít have.

You seem to be suggesting that the only way is to allow a lot of time to pass, (I get that from you saying "time is your only ally") and it does take time, but there are so many other thing that can be done right now. Those are things we should be talking about.


You're welcome to belive that word of mouth is all you need, I just disagree. There was no need in you making a big deal about it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 6, 2019 11:55AM)
When did I say that "word of mouth is all you need"? YOU MADE THAT UP.

I do not "seem to be suggesting" YOU ARE INFERRING. THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM TOM. Reading is fundamental but comprehension is an advanced skill. If that is what you get from "time is your only ally" then you really are FAR less educated about business than you pretend. (Which is CLEAR.)

TIME is the great leveling agent Tom. Time is something that you guru followers don't want to admit is the BEST thing for a company or person in service. I know you don't understand this but TIME is how people get to see or hear about you again and again. Being "that" company or business or performer over TIME IS what helps. It won't happen instantly. You won't get set apart from the competition instantly.

ALL those things you NEED TO BE DOING RIGHT NOW matter. I NEVER SAID THEY DIDN'T. I am simply saying that you need to be doing them right now, FOR A LONG TIME or they don't matter. You have to be "that guy" for a LONG TIME Tom. You never WERE that guy.

I get emails EVERY DAY from resort companies who want us to do what we did for our partners. In the industry we are fairly well known for doing what we do. 12 years ago I could not get an APPOINTMENT with those who are now wanting me to come work with them. Why? TIME doing what we have been on a very high level for those we work with. Reputations are made over TIME Tom. NOT INSTANTLY.

HOW is that reputation made? Easy. You will have a reputation no matter what. (For example yours here is pretty clear.) I thought it was fairly self explanatory that you had to be doing a great job.

Go back and READ AND COMPREHEND the first post Chris made. Here is the relevant part Tom.

"Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.

I know that once you hit a certain level your reputation will speak for itself - but we are not there quite yet.

So has this happened to anyone else and how did you approach the scenario? Is this just the normal scenario for someone building up their business and I'm just thinking it's odd because of my perception of it?"

HE IS NOT ASKING FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO BEHAVE TOM. Christopher KNOWS how to behave and IS professional and IS doing all those things he needs to be doing NOW that you think are OH SO IMPORTANT. He is asking what to do in the case of acting professionally and people getting to know that they are different, and TIME IS HIS ONLY ALLY.

Does that follow for you Tom? Do you see what is being said? I do not have a language more simple in which to explain this to you. Maybe Ray can find a way to get this so you can understand.

I NEVER SAID WORD OF MOUTH WAS ALL YOU NEED Tom. Not once. But since he is already doing the right things we moved on from that. Maybe you missed that part of the discussion and you can come back and apologize for derailing this thread so badly!

Now STOP trolling. You have YET AGAIN been shown where you are wrong. I doubt you are "man enough" in your own words to admit it. (I have a side bet with mindpro.) You blew up this whole thread for 4 pages just because you do not want to bother to read and comprehend what is being said. You are so desperate to be taken seriously that you derail literally every thread that comes along just to further your agenda and get even with me. It is childish behavior.

Can you now back off and admit you were wrong and stop?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 6, 2019 12:31PM)
Yep I was wrongÖ. you certainly can twist things even worst than I thought.

You have no idea how the very young performers are so successful today.

Superstars at a very young age didnít come from waiting.

But you right, I may as well stop, because you donít have a clue.

You can carry on without me now. Thanks for your time Danny.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 6, 2019 12:58PM)
NOBODY SAID THEY CAME FROM WAITING! Why do you insist on doing that?

I never said wait. I said Christopher was already doing the right things. IN THIS THREAD TO ANSWER HIS QUESTION is what we are talking about Tom. We are not talking about making a superstar.

Stop changing the subject to things you want to pretend you have knowledge of. YOU have never been a superstar. You have never been a performer on any level. Stop pretending. Go yell at kids for being on your lawn.

You are right about one thing. I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YOU ARE BABBLING ABOUT. You really are not going to stop. You keep saying you will but you won't. I didn't twist ANYTHING, I simply quoted word for word DIRECTLY what was said. (Oh and it is "worse" than you thought.)

If you would stop trying to derail this into something YOU want to talk about we could get to what Christopher is asking about. 4 pages of your bs! My lord you need to stop listening to your imaginary friends of Facebook.

Are you REALLY going to stop Tom? I mean this is something the mods should look at. You are just such a big distraction. If you are REALLY sorry for your part in the distraction here then you would stop doing it. You were not "part" of the big distraction, you ARE the big distraction.

Wimp Lo strikes again.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d696t3yALAY

"I am bleeding, thus making me the victor".
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 7, 2019 10:45AM)
Back to the original topic now, WitchDocChris, I am hoping you can answer some questions for me to help me/us better understand your concern, dilemma, and current position.

What is it you are shooting for?
What is your definition of success as it pertains to what you are seeking?
What do you see as your obstacles?

I ask for very specific reasons which I will address after hearing your response, as it will likely help both of us ( and others here) as there are some things I question about your type of performers that I'm trying to understand, so this is very interesting to me as well (your thoughts and answers). Thanks.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 7, 2019 11:48AM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
In another thread about insurance, Danny said this -

[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
But as I said the looking more professional stuff on some level is wishful thinking to me. Once you are on whatever level it is assumed you have it anyhow. [/quote]

And that just solidified something that's been bopping around my head lately.

I know each region/market is going to have its unique quirks and oddities. Like which advertising methods are most effective and that kind of thing.

But here's something my wife and I have been dealing with - There are few serious performers in this area, outside of music acts. Unless you go down to Baltimore, there's probably less than 20 or so people who perform for the public regularly, who do things like circus, sideshow, magic, mentalism, aerials, acrobatics, juggling, etc.

Many of those performers are not very professional in their behavior (because they have no idea what being professional actually means - they just want to get some money for having fun).

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.

I know that once you hit a certain level your reputation will speak for itself - but we are not there quite yet.

So has this happened to anyone else and how did you approach the scenario? Is this just the normal scenario for someone building up their business and I'm just thinking it's odd because of my perception of it? [/quote]

Hey Chris,

First, again my apologies for being a part of the distraction here on your thread. And like I said, I really mean that.

But to your post, and my first thought which I never got around to is and I know this from experience, is a business name itself tells others so much about you. Not saying you should change your name, but I can picture some in my area running from someone named Witchdoctor. LOL. I mean that in a laughable way but I am interested in hearing some, if any, reactions to your name that you may have had. Share if you can.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jul 7, 2019 07:25PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:

So when we approach venues, or potential clients, or even just when we're chatting with folks in social situations and mention what we do - we're constantly having to convince people that performers -can- be professional.

On the one hand it helps us - because we behave professionally, all our clients tend to book us repeatedly and we get good word of mouth.

On the other hand it hurts us - it's an uphill battle with every cold approach because the established mental image is that because we perform we must be irresponsible/vagabonds/whatever old timey terminology for undesirable you can think of.[/quote]

Danny & Mindpro have given SO much wonderful information. These are just a few thoughts from what I've been through.

I've always believed that upon meeting someone new, there is a 30 second to 1 minute credibility phase where they form an opinion on your level of ability and professionalism. I was VERY lucky that I started working in a large Equity theater from about 11 years old on. I quickly learned what it meant to be a professional and kept those ideals with me throughout my entire career.

I still work mainly professional venues but every now and then I'll be doing a private corporate event and have someone say with amazement... "Wow, you're so professional!" which always made me laugh. I always thought, "Well, yeah... I would hope so!" It took me a while to understand that everyone in the industry didn't have the same ideals and attention to detail that I did which is why I was so grateful for my early learning years with such good examples of the craft.

When we're touring now, I meet each new House TD every day and understand that we will be doing this credibility dance so upon greeting them, I will usually either joke with them about some complex subtle thing I've noticed in the theater or ask them a suitably advanced question letting them form a credible opinion of my knowledge. After that, we can get to work with mutual respect. It is usually more critical when I walk in as a magician vs when I walk in as a production manager, TD, rigger or anything else.

My personal goal is to get them out of viewing me as "Talent" or "The Magician" as quickly as possible so that we can begin working as a team to solve the problems at hand. To think of it a different way, I always just want to be viewed as a "Peer" with anyone I'm working with, whether it is a celebrity or a technician. It just seems to open up a more elegant communication path with which to proceed and helps to divide us from the rest of the pack!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 7, 2019 08:16PM)
Man, what you said here is soooo important, yet so many do not truly understand this. I agree completely with the initial 30 second or 1-minute credibility and professional impression.

What I am finding now in many situations, where I too like to been seen and received as professionals, yet I get so many people TD and crew embers that actually think I am the big-deal professional (one of the top in my performance market) and they are thrilled to be working with me and someone on my level. I went in seeking a peer relationship but due to my image and positioning in the market, they view me as someone greater to look up to and respect, and of course, their goal then is to impress and please me because of what they believe is my perceived level. It can be very rewarding. This also carries on (and quite rewarding) through to return appearances (over 80% of my business) and the level of professionalism and reputation is now established an in place before I ever return.

I too grew up the business and like others our age - the Jacksons, Osmonds, Cowsills, DeFrancos, and other peer artists our age, being a professional was the first and priority concern - our parents and handlers made SURE of this. Our talent and skills would never have the chance to be presented if we weren't seen as professionals and taken seriously from the very first credibility impression - actually before this first in-person impression as our promotional materials, managers, agents, promoters, and road/tour managers precedes us with this reputation and impression long before we ever arrived on-site.

This is an area of concern with guys like WithchDocChris because of the nature and image of his type of performer and their perception and first impression. He may have things working against him before even making that first credibility impression. I know many younger guys that think this isn't prevalent today and that causal and unusual is more accepted, but while it may be in some circles, it will never overcome or eliminate the exact professionalism we are speaking of here.

From the minute of our initial contact to that very crucial first impression, all of this is an important part of our business operations. Performers are delusional. I mean that in their focus is often on things of personal interest or concern, and this more often than not has them not relaizing the most important thing which is what is important to the potential client, customer, venue and their audience.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 7, 2019 08:29PM)
I have always maintained that the first impression is when contact is made. This is why the rush to automate responses to clients boggles my mind. Yet it was all the rage in this section for a long time.

Auto respond email, auto send newsletters, automate it all. THAT is the first impression. You can't be bothered to respond. Not what I would leave as my first impression.

First impressions happen WAY before most think. The guru crowd just seems to miss all this. I have always felt if someone doesn't find me important enough to interact with I move along. Simple as can be.

I too Ray want to be seen as part of the team. We all have an important part to play, mine just happens to be out front is all. But the tech guy is just as important. At resorts some of these kids work 14 hours a day 6 days a week. THEY fill the room and so the tech work. Without them there is no show. It is important that they feel and ARE part is the team.

And when you act like this always the front page on you is that you are great to work with. It takes time for this reputation to happen, but it does. The only way for it to happen is to be working and just do it. You never pick up on it any other way.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 7, 2019 08:51PM)
Let me expand just a little on what I said about a business name.

A business name itself is often your first impression with customers. Many times it tells people what yourísellingí so the first mental thoughts are usually how can I tell this guy No? Most people are programmed to fear salespeople until the ice is broken. And until that ice is broken they arenít really listening.

I have always said a magician has a better chance of getting a foot in the door whith new prospects if they call themselves an entertainer. The Ďmagicianí has to first explain why he doesnít do birthday parties. While the ďEntertainerĒ can say, Iím glad you asked, and then get straight to it.

Again Iím not saying nothing is wrong with Chis The Witch Doctor name. Those contacting him most likely already know what he does. But I can see where in a social setting or a cold call on a prospect, where he may have some explaining to do. And why they may be thinking at first ďI canít really take this guy seriousĒ lol This is why I asked if maybe he could share some of his better (or worst) first reaction stories. I would think he probably has some.

I know nothing about the Bizarre magic world, but I would think it would be much like talking to a hypnosis, you sort of want to look down. :)


Tom
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Jul 7, 2019 09:01PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2019, Mindpro wrote:

What I am finding now in many situations, where I too like to been seen and received as professionals, yet I get so many people TD and crew embers that actually think I am the big-deal professional (one of the top in my performance market) and they are thrilled to be working with me and someone on my level. I went in seeking a peer relationship but due to my image and positioning in the market, they view me as someone greater to look up to and respect, and of course, their goal then is to impress and please me because of what they believe is my perceived level. It can be very rewarding. This also carries on (and quite rewarding) through to return appearances (over 80% of my business) and the level of professionalism and reputation is now established an in place before I ever return.[/quote]

Yeah, I totally get that! There is something to be said for having that reputation that proceeds you. I was loading in for a headlining show in AC at the Trop and one of the guys on the crew came up and said, "You seem like you know everything that's going on, would you do me a favor and introduce me to Ray Pierce when he comes in?" lol.. it was all I could do to agree that I would. Later, just before the first show started I came out of the dressing room and went straight over to him and told him it was nice to meet him officially!

I do agree that there is some advantage in keeping that mystique and distance in some cases where it can be leveraged correctly. Personally, even when I have those rare shows where the guys set everything up for me... my first stop onstage is still with the crew. I started as a tech and will die as one. In between, I go on stage from time to time and do some tricks.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 7, 2019 11:23PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:

I have always said a magician has a better chance of getting a foot in the door whith new prospects if they call themselves an entertainer. The Ďmagicianí has to first explain why he doesnít do birthday parties. While the ďEntertainerĒ can say, Iím glad you asked, and then get straight to it.


Tom [/quote]
This isn't even close to the experience I or 99% of people I know and work with have had. (I leave the 1% only for a margin of error. I believe the number is closer to 100%.)

If you have to sort of misrepresent what it is you do right up front that is not the best footing to start a business relationship with.

EVERYONE I have ever worked for knew exactly what it was I do and who I am. PERIOD. NO need to misrepresent it in any way or be coy or try to sneak around the word magician. That is amateur stuff.

If you have to explain why you don't do kids birthday parties there are a lot of other flaws to take care of.

Again this is the sort of thing that assumes all acts are created equal and they simply are not. NOBODY asks me if I do kids parties. It simply never happens. It didn't happen when I started. It comes to so many other things. For example I never actually DID kids parties. But if your branding is unclear, and nobody knows the difference then that is an issue to get fixed. The way to fix it is definitely NOT to misrepresent them and mislead them about what you do. I mean my lord why would you NOT tell them you are a magician? It is a very special thing! I can't imagine not wanting to tell some potential client about the very thing that sets me apart from other "entertainers". I mean you must not be that good a magician if you don't want to admit it.

I mean eventually you have to use the word "magician" and when you do what is to stop them from thinking exactly the same thing? I mean eventually it will have to come out. And when it does, now you look as if you are being sneaky. The key is not to be deceptive. (Even though magician is the job.) The key is to have your house in order as far as branding goes. Make sure that by the time they contact you or you contact them they KNOW what you do and what you are offering. There should be no question after you contact what it is you do and who you are and why you are suited for their needs. It is sales 101. Very basic.

I would never hide or be deceptive about who I am and what I do. It is a horrible way to start out a relationship with a client.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 8, 2019 12:28AM)
There is a huge difference between a magician and an entertainer. To say you are an entertainer is wrong and deceptive. Most magicians are that - magicians. This is poor advice to tell or encourage someone to say they are something they are not. It can only go more wrong from there.

This is much of the problem today is guys just "call themselves" what they want and then can't deliver on that positioning or expectation.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 8, 2019 07:13AM)
No the problem is trying to follow everyone else and please all the competition.

Magic can be very entertaining and if not youíre doing something wrong. Nothing at all deceptive about telling people what you do.
Itís my business I can name it what I like. If I want to play a banjo, juggle, tell jokes, sing and dance in my magic act then I will.
I can entertain anyway I like.

Yes if all you do is card tricks then of course youíre nothing but a magician and should tell people. But that doesn't change
the 'fact' that strangers will Ďassumeí youíre nothing but just Ďanotherí magician. You do tricks.

My point is be different and actually have an entertaining act if you want to open more doors.


Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 8, 2019 08:28AM)
In short: (I don't have time to post 25 more times today to explain myself)

The topic is, How much effect does the market have on your own image?

The answer is: It only has an effect on your image when you allow it to.

You can change that public image by letting others know that YOU are different from all the rest.

I know several magicians that have business cards that read:

Comedy-Magic-More

Entertainer --MagicianóComedian

Certainly there is more but just that little bit there can help.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 10:06AM)
Fantastic. We have the viewpoint from the non working professional.

You said FLAT OUT the following.

"I have always said a magician has a better chance of getting a foot in the door whith new prospects if they call themselves an entertainer. The Ďmagicianí has to first explain why he doesnít do birthday parties. While the ďEntertainerĒ can say, Iím glad you asked, and then get straight to it."

Tom this is you encouraging MAGICIANS to tell people they are "entertainers" because in your little world people think all magicians do birthday parties. This is flat out deceptive and you were called on it. Then instead of stepping back and admitting you were wrong (Which you say you do all the time.) you go on to make up silly excuses.

Tom the only "fact" is that strangers may believe YOU are just another magician. You can't speak for anyone but yourself. The idea that if you want to play banjo, tell jokes and piano and call yourself an entertainer sure go ahead. BUT what you said flat out was "magicians" have trouble being booked because of a perception so you have to deceive them to get the door open. You said nothing about banjo's and such.

This is REALLY bad advice Tom. REALLY bad and advice like this if followed will COST PEOPLE MONEY. While you need to be unique, people need to KNOW WHAT YOU DO. Deception when dealing with clients just to get in the door is very bad business.

Please do NOT post 25 more times.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 8, 2019 10:16AM)
OMG! It is such a shame that we can not have a good professional discussion without constantly having to be dragged out of the discussion back into the kiddie pool by someone that isn't a working performer and hasn't any experience in the current working marketplace. This is so frustrating!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 10:20AM)
I hope he is done.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jul 8, 2019 10:52AM)
Well. That certainly was a journey.

Sorry I didn't respond over the weekend - I was at a gig in CT.

I will address some points -

[quote]Also it is possible, and often necessary to outgrow your market.[/quote]

I am aware of this, and I am fairly certain I will end up having to expand my market significantly if I ever want to maintain a livable wage via performance. This city only has about 40K people and most of them are not theater goers, so I do have to be careful not to burn out the potential paying audiences while I work at building my reputation.

Social media is kind of strange here. People don't seem to plan entertainment choices online. I think it's because the city basically consists of several insular groups that don't really talk to each other. So they each have their own online groups and physical haunts where they hang out regularly. If you're not advertising in those places, those people will never hear about your event.

[quote]As someone who has identified this such as you and your wife (is she a performer too?) this can create a great opportunity if understood and utilized properly. [/quote]

Yes she is a performer. She does stilt walking (with associated make up and costuming - mostly fantasy characters she creates on her own), aerial acrobatics, fire performances, some other light circus skills, and we do a sideshow act together.

We're doing our best to leverage the relative lack of competition as best we can. She's pretty good at gig hounding and building client relations and she's developed several solid connections that yield consistent gigs which is great. Honestly she's well ahead of me in that regard due to the time I took off to rethink my business strategies.

To this:
[quote]I also think for the type of performer you are WitchDocchris you have an easier chance than if you were just another typical faceless magician in the crowd.[/quote]
[quote] Not saying you should change your name, but I can picture some in my area running from someone named Witchdoctor. LOL.[/quote]

Witch Doctor Productions is the umbrella term I use for any entertainment I do on my own. My stage name is Christopher Strange, because my actual last name is difficult to pronounce when seen written out, and difficult to spell when heard said out loud, and I got tired of people stumbling over it. So I am Christopher Strange, the Witch Doctor.

I've had people cross themselves before, but generally people are just intrigued. In Southern PA we still have a strong tradition of Powwows and other folk practices, not to mention a huge pagan/voodoo community. It's not as uncommon for someone to be into esoteric things out here as one may guess.

Ok -

So to address the general points that have been brought up (and ignoring the side tracks) -

I always do my best to make an excellent first impression. Generally any time I'm outside my own house I consider myself to be performing, or in the least, building my reputation. So I dress the part and assume anyone who sees me may be a potential client, and behave in accordance with that mentality. Luckily for me, my stage persona is very close to my normal one, so it isn't terribly taxing to do this.

I don't really have theater training at all. I'm slowly learning about lights, set building, and sound engineering - For the most part my shows are very minimal because it both suits my aesthetic as well as making things very easy for everyone involved. My clients know that I am someone who basically just needs to be shown to the performance space and then I take care of the rest.

A big reason for that is that my ideal performance scenario is a small parlor sized venue. I like to imagine it may feel like what Victorian folks felt when they gathered to talk about the subjects they enjoyed, except I'm leading the way the whole time.

And, finally, to answer Mindpro's questions -
[quote]What is it you are shooting for?
What is your definition of success as it pertains to what you are seeking?
What do you see as your obstacles? [/quote]

My short term goals (meaning over the next couple/few years) are simply to establish regular shows in multiple venues, spread out over a few nearby cities so as not to burn through my potential ticket-purchasing audiences. Those shows will ultimately be parlor-sized, maybe 30-60 people, with perhaps two to four shows on a given weekend.

When all is said and done, I would consider myself to be successful if I essentially made the bizarre mentalism version of Chamber Magic. Meaning a regular show, in a nice venue, for an intimate audience of up to maybe 60/70 people, for premium ticket prices. Sold out months in advance would also be quite nice. I don't want to have to spend all my time traveling. Alternatively, or perhaps concurrently, I would like to own said venue and be able to host other performers on days when I am not performing, but that is something I don't even know enough about yet to consider planning.

My obstacles are primarily my own lack of knowledge. While the other performers in the area are frustrating, ultimately I do know that as long as I keep plugging away and presenting an excellent value to my clients I'll be fine. What I struggle with is the marketing/business side of things and trying to get into the good graces of local venues and event coordinators. And also trying to get myself in front of audiences without burning out a relatively small population. I want people to be excited to see my show, not just thinking "oh, that guy again".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 10:57AM)
Is relocation an option?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jul 8, 2019 11:17AM)
Danny,

My point is simple really, and shouldnít need to be explained over and over again, you want them to ask you exactly what it is you do. If you just say,
Iím a magician they will ASSUME that they already know and may shut you out if they have seen a bad one before. They have no reason to belive you're no different.
It helps to understand a little about salesmanship if you trying to be successful in a business. But you wouldnít know about that.

I can certainly see why people have got up and walked out on your performance because of your rudeness. I am finished with you.

Tom

Thanks Chris for your post.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jul 8, 2019 11:27AM)
Not particularly. We got a really good deal on this house.

Another point, which I think I ended up removing in the various edits of my posts -

The alternative performance scene is currently very small here, but it is building. They just started hosting a fringe festival, and there are several theaters in the area. So there is more 'stuff' coming in. My wife and I have also started doing a quarterly 'vaudeville' show which is bringing in talent from all over the country (Currently, mostly friends doing us a favor, or who happen to be in the area at the right time).

So that ultimate goal isn't currently feasible - but the entire environment is set to shift, regarding entertainment in this city. I'm focusing on building my reputation, and working with the people who are bringing these alternative options into the city, so that I can get entrenched in that as it builds. Getting in on the grond floor, as it were.

Alternatively - the city I'm in is centrally located between several other cities which are either bigger, or more tourist-oriented. Harrisburg is 30 min North and has plenty of venues. Gettysburg is 30/40 minutes West and is obviously massively tourist oriented (down side, it basically shuts down during the off season). Lancaster is 30/40 minutes East and is, for reasons I'm still not sure about, a tourist destination with several established venues and a solid night life. And lastly, Baltimore is also 30/40 minutes away, to the South, and is both huge and hosts many venues and is no stranger to magic and associated performance styles - Vince Wilson just established "Poe's Magic" in the Lord Baltimore Hotel, for example, and David London has done several shows in and around Baltimore.

So what I may end up doing is having to cruise over to one of those cities to do the shows I'd really like to do. If I can get decent ticket sales going, that drive wouldn't bother me.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 11:36AM)
Yea rough to start in so many places. I get what you're saying
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 11:37AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny,

My point is simple really, and shouldnít need to be explained over and over again, you want them to ask you exactly what it is you do. If you just say,
Iím a magician they will ASSUME that they already know and may shut you out if they have seen a bad one before. They have no reason to belive you're no different.
It helps to understand a little about salesmanship if you trying to be successful in a business. But you wouldnít know about that.

I can certainly see why people have got up and walked out on your performance because of your rudeness. I am finished with you.

Tom

Thanks Chris for your post. [/quote]

Being deceptive is not good salesmanship.

Babble all you want but you have not had a performance so there is that huh?

I REALLY hope you are done now.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 12:23PM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
Not particularly. We got a really good deal on this house.

Another point, which I think I ended up removing in the various edits of my posts -

The alternative performance scene is currently very small here, but it is building. They just started hosting a fringe festival, and there are several theaters in the area. So there is more 'stuff' coming in. My wife and I have also started doing a quarterly 'vaudeville' show which is bringing in talent from all over the country (Currently, mostly friends doing us a favor, or who happen to be in the area at the right time).

So that ultimate goal isn't currently feasible - but the entire environment is set to shift, regarding entertainment in this city. I'm focusing on building my reputation, and working with the people who are bringing these alternative options into the city, so that I can get entrenched in that as it builds. Getting in on the grond floor, as it were.

Alternatively - the city I'm in is centrally located between several other cities which are either bigger, or more tourist-oriented. Harrisburg is 30 min North and has plenty of venues. Gettysburg is 30/40 minutes West and is obviously massively tourist oriented (down side, it basically shuts down during the off season). Lancaster is 30/40 minutes East and is, for reasons I'm still not sure about, a tourist destination with several established venues and a solid night life. And lastly, Baltimore is also 30/40 minutes away, to the South, and is both huge and hosts many venues and is no stranger to magic and associated performance styles - Vince Wilson just established "Poe's Magic" in the Lord Baltimore Hotel, for example, and David London has done several shows in and around Baltimore.

So what I may end up doing is having to cruise over to one of those cities to do the shows I'd really like to do. If I can get decent ticket sales going, that drive wouldn't bother me. [/quote]

Here is why I ask. Mind you I respect the decision, and understand it but want to make this point. If you think it belongs in another thread please let me know I will start one.

Often performance is not easy to do. Obviously.

So you set goals and get a plan together and you move forward and such with all you have planned. When you are in a restricted market such as a very small place it severely limits many of the things you are able to do. When you do non traditional performance, which is limited audience to begin with, it is even worse. Too often thinking the market is shifting and is coming to you amounts to little more than wishful thinking. I have done this a couple times. It seems as if it is shifting because you are LOOKING for it to shift. You end up seeing those things now, even though they were there all along. It is perception bias. Often it is a combination of both phenomenon.

Waiting for markets to shift to you has never been my favorite way to work. I do understand that sometimes this is how things have to be done for various reasons. I just don't like things that are not in my control.

Also trying to be known or set up in several markets at the same time will be a large chore.

The problem you will have with the wanting to be in the same venue with what you do, AND the size of the market is that you will probably have a finite number of people who would go see this to begin with. Then once you have done it you end up burning through the ticket sales faster than you think. For longevity obviously it is better to have more of a pool of people to sell tickets to.

And SELLING those *** tickets is where the money gets burned. The more specialized the type of show, the tougher it is to put a but every 18 inches. If the goal is to work performance full time to get to this venue you need to have a worked out plan. It will not evolve on it's own. You need a 6 month goal, 1 year plan and 5 year plan. Write these things out. If you don't have knowledge don't let that set you back or hold you down. GET that knowledge!!! Set goals and ways to attain them. Goals without a plan of how to obtain them are dreams and that is a huge distinction.

What you want to do is not easy and will not happen by itself. It will not happen just by having a show that is good enough. It is a thousand other things as well and each equally important. The one glitch in the thing is simply that for a show to be a big enough deal to be a premium price it needs to be a VERY polished show. If it is not worked a thousand times it is not THAT show. A traditional way to get that done is to travel with the show so it can be done again and again and again.

Keep us updated on the process!
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jul 8, 2019 12:55PM)
Yes, I agree with you for the most part. I am currently in the "Get that knowledge" part. My plans are not solid, because I think it would be foolish to think I could possibly put together a solid plan that would work at this time.

The only part I kind of disagree with, and it's only kind of because I could be wrong, is that I'm not waiting for the market to come to me. It is genuinely evolving around me. I've talked with the event coordinators and I've looked for listings - two years ago it just wasn't common out here. We get national acts that come through - The Illusionists a couple years ago. The Hollywood Medium last year. Bunch of comedians and bands, of course. But those are the big shows - there just haven't been many local alternative performers in this city for as long as anyone currently working on things can remember.

But now there are multiple groups and organizers in the city that are actively working to bring this sort of entertainment to venues in the city, in a specific effort to increase the diversity of entertainment available without having to drive to the next city.

And yes - burning through the potential audience is my major concern and why I'm really thinking I'll end up in Baltimore. That city is big enough, and has enough of an alternative arts scene, and enough tourism, that I think I genuinely have a chance. Once I get everything polished, of course. These are all long term goals.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 8, 2019 01:37PM)
Baltimore is a WONDERFUL choice for that sort of idea. It has most importantly not only "status" but ACCESS.

Don't be afraid of one thing though. You CAN put a plan together, but it can change and evolve as you get more information. NEVER think it has to be 100% ready to go and that you have to stick to it no matter what. The idea is to gain knowledge and evolve the plan. Don't wait until you think you have everything and everything has to go right.

Remember "no plan every survives first contact with the enemy". This is a distilled down version of a quote by Helmuth von Moltke the Elder. " No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force" was his exact quote.

The main point is that the plan you have WILL change! It can't help but. IT IN NO WAY means you made a mistake in planning. It means that things happen in reality that often don't happen on paper. THIS is one reason why "failure" not only IS an option but is an essential element in the learning process.

Don't be afraid to plan my friend. Don't be afraid to change that plan! Many will tell you this is the only real way to lasting success.

I am sorry if this seems off topic.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jul 8, 2019 02:49PM)
I think it is veering but I also don't know if there's much else to say on the original question.

The answer really is, "This is what you go through when you're building an entertainment business"

Regarding the plan, though - I tend to do short term, long term, and idealistic plans. As in, this is what I need to do now. This is what I am aiming at and what I need to reach that goal. And then, wouldn't it be super cool if I was able to do this? Idealistic pretty much never happens, but sometimes.

Right now the plan is mostly learning certain skills. Basically all those things that are required for an entertainment business other than the show.

But speaking of changing the plan - just a couple hours ago I got some really cool news which has possibly changed the plan. Some great opportunities that if I can leverage them will be awesome and move me closer to the ultimate end goal.