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Topic: What is the holy grail in card magic
Message: Posted by: Chuck Finley (Jul 20, 2019 04:07PM)
I have a question for the card folks out there: what to you think is the holy grail of card magic. This is meant to be totally opinion based. Is it the perfect bottom deal, center deal, maybe its as simple color monte, or anything really. Why do you think its the holy grail.
Message: Posted by: Gerald Deutsch (Jul 20, 2019 04:25PM)
To entertain the audience!!!!
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Jul 20, 2019 05:00PM)
Gerald is correct, of course, even more so while busking. Entertain... and I'd add "astonish". But "holy grail" implies something almost unachievable, doesn't it? The purely "thought of card" revealed in a near impossible place in a near impossible way, with a borrowed deck (of course!)...that would do it for me. There are many Acaan effects out there that are "achievable" (my favorite is a simple one by Jay Sankey); but I'm always astonished by something new in this general category. As far as sleights go, there are too many for me to pick a 'holy grail', but for me it all boils down to being able to control the cards at all times, period... something I'm always working on. Lynn
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 20, 2019 05:22PM)
THIS IS A OLD EFFECT OF MINE OI CALL THE UN HOLY GRAIL it is ACAAN from a borrowed shuffled deck, I.m sorry about the poor quality of video ,
https://youtu.be/4NYXuqLxhY0
Message: Posted by: sirbrad (Jul 20, 2019 07:40PM)
I think the "holy grail" is to have a solid fountain in all or most card sleights and moves, and sometimes only mastering a few moves is enough. But that is all personal preference and style. You don't really need to know them all, or even most to be successful. But the more knowledge and experience that you have the better and more prepared you will be. I personally wanted to learn "everything" and all the hard stuff then decide later on what I would use the most. So in that regard I think as far as "products" go book wise "Card College" would be the holy grail as far learning card sleights and card magic, and is a Dan Harlan says "a scholarly pursuit" into the art.

But even I did not have that almost 40 years ago when I started, so for me the holy grail back then was "The Amateur Magician's Handbook, Mark Wilson's Complete Course, Scarne on Card Tricks, The Encyclopedia of Card Tricks, RRTCM, Expert at the Card Table, Expert Card Technique, etc. As far as DVDS and videos are concerned "Daryl's Encyclopedia of Card Sleights" is the holy grail as far as card sleights and moves, but there are many other great ones out there to like RRTCM both versions, ETMCM, Ultimate Card Sessions etc. Today there is so much more available. Even Tarbell and Greater Magic have a lot of card work in them. So really it depends on what you want to do, and how much you want to learn. You can't go wrong with any of those though.

There are tons of books out there and now DVDS on the subject. But I would definitely say Daryl's DVD set and Card College would be as holy grail as you can get as far as having both forms of media. Overall "The Tarbell Course in Magic" is the holy grail of all magic as a whole. But I like to collect as much as possible and have access to as much material as possible, and then decide later on what I want to use and it is always fun to know that new material is always waiting for you. There is so much great stuff out there today though it is hard to just narrow it down to one or two things. But if you are talking overall sleights and card magic it doesn't get much better than those when it comes to building your foundation.

But I did so back in the day without those, and The Amateur Magician's Handbook was even enough, followed by Mark Wilson's Complete Course, Scarne on Card Tricks, RRTCM, Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, Learn Magic, EOCT, and The Magic Book gave me enough material to perform for many years alone.

So when Daryl's set and others came out in the 80's and 90's it was a godsend to be able to see all those moves on a video, to better understand the timing and misdirection of a sleight, and see sample patter and presentations from other magicians. But once you have those you just keep wanting more, and eventually you have a room that is now a massive library of magic at your disposal, and after almost 40 years of collecting.

Sometimes it is also fun to do what I call "gem mining" and just open on book up to any page and work on whatever you find. Or just read one book through at a time, or random books and DVDS. There are way too many tricks and sleights out there though to narrow it down to just one, especially after being exposed to so many over the years. So it all comes down to personal preference and style mostly, there is no universal "holy grail" or one-size-fits-all trick or sleight. So you just do what you like and what your audience likes, and what works for you and your audienceó and most importantly, what is fun for you and your audience.
Message: Posted by: magicwiia (Jul 20, 2019 08:31PM)
Well, I am young pup in the magic world and just started card handling. My holy grail is something that is probably in the rear-view mirror of most professionals. A smooth-as-glass, no-hesitation, and no-break double lift.

In the hiking world, it might be a false peak, with my more to come, but for now it is my mountain top -- my Holy Grail.
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Jul 21, 2019 02:58PM)
The holy grail would be to have a spectator think of a card without suggestion, and then be able to produce it from the deck.
Message: Posted by: otzdog (Jul 21, 2019 07:30PM)
I think of the holy grail as something "unattainable" but always striven for. Moves are just tools. Some of the best tricks I've ever seen are self working.

All that being said, my holy grail is to return a borrowed shuffled deck into new deck order under the guise of repeated shuffles WITHOUT switching decks.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Jul 21, 2019 10:48PM)
Danaruns. I do that. I tell them what it is. I am off by one then say no I was wrong then tell them. then let them check the deck and see it was never in the deck . just their fantasy.

I think it is worth thinking of the holy grail in terms of what spectators think. 98% of card magic is centered and begun with what magicians think is significant. in the spectator's mind, according to many accounts I have heard, the HG is attainable. It often has to do with an unbelievably clean force. Where the spectator can truly choose which card they want. Then it is produced or shown to be in an "impossible location." So IMHO from what spectators have told me, not my own philosophizing, a production from an impossible location and an incredibly clean force are one way. Or achieving what Danaruns mentioned, in the spectators mind. But I am sure there are many more. But it is important to mention that the holy grail can be appropriately described in terms of what spectators consider it to be. Not magicians.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jul 22, 2019 07:32AM)
Single card face down on the table. Spec names a card. Turn over the card and there it is. Repeat two more times.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Jul 22, 2019 08:03AM)
Interesting to see the different thoughts on this. I don't really have a holy grail in card magic. I suppose if I focus mainly on gambling stuff the center deal might be it. Or being able to do 8 perfect tabled faros without the audience falling asleep.

If I focused on mentalism, then perhaps ACAAN might be a good candidate. However there are now umpteen hundred methods out there so I'm not sure it qualifies anymore.

Some look upon certain sleights as "grail" moves and some have chosen to go the direction of effects. Interesting.
Message: Posted by: Josepher (Jul 22, 2019 01:17PM)
I first thought of ACAAN, but after some thought I think it would be the standard Invisible Deck Routine, done with a borrowed examinable deck.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Jul 22, 2019 01:30PM)
This question always manages to highlight just how unimaginative most card magicians are.

"OK, you can do anything in the world with a deck of cards. What do you do?"
"Um... Make a card appear at a number...?"
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jul 22, 2019 01:51PM)
Hmmm...I don't think that's unimaginative; it's what a gambler might wish in the real world to be able to do. To control the identity of a card at any point in the deck. Seems reasonable to me.

My proposal was to use the cards as tokens in as pure a test of esp as possible.

I suppose you could wish to have the cards turn into a million dollars or a dancing chorus line or solve world hunger, all of which would be imaginative I guess, but why use cards specifically, then?

A holy grail isn't only about imagination, it's about wish fulfillment.
Message: Posted by: sirbrad (Jul 22, 2019 03:47PM)
As far as effects go I personally prefer card in impossible location. Card in orange, card outside a window, card in box, card in wallet, card in sealed Slim Fast can, card in bottle, card in Pop-tart, etc. Although I never do the last one as it is too messy. But sleights/gimmicks are the tools that make that happen. As I said it is all a matter of style and preference as some card magicians like to rely solely on ungimmicked decks and sleight of hand, some just use gimmicked/gaffed decks, some like me use both and mix the two.

But I like a wide variety of card effects not just those. The more you know and learn over a long period of time though the harder it is to pick just one holy grail. And usually for beginners who do so, and do not know all that is out there yet; change their holy grail often.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Jul 22, 2019 08:27PM)
In term of effect, I second Landmark. One single card on the table, face down. Spectator names any card, turn the table card face up, here it is. Put the card again face down. Repeat the effect two times. Iíve thought a lot on this, but no satisfying results were obtained, even with altering the conditions, especially the fact that you never touch anything. I have an idea to achieve that but the result is so uncertain compared to the efforts that I gave upÖ

I donít see anything more powerful than that.
Message: Posted by: sirbrad (Jul 22, 2019 09:49PM)
That is the problem with that effect, it would be very hard to accomplish one time let alone multiple times. Also you would have to do it again because they would attribute the first time to "luck" and then be watching even more closely the second time. "The invisible deck" is just as powerful and a lot easier to accomplish, or "thought of card in balloon" etc which I also use a lot. The other way is only more impressive to the magician himself. But when I speak of HG tricks I am speaking of what is actually possible and out there already, not "theories" that would be HG IF you could do them.

But nonetheless there are many ways to make the spectator think that you actually did this anyway, and having a thought of card reverse itself is just one of the ways. The trick is usually a lot bigger in the spectator's memory than it actually really is, and with great misdirection and presentation it is even bigger. A lot of times magicians try to impress themselves first, then hope that the audience is also impressed. Sometimes they are, but sometimes their lack of knowledge and having no other comparison prevents them from fully understanding just how impressive something really was.

So sometimes it is the magician is who is impressed mostly, we call that "running without being chased". You also have to be careful about the "too perfect theory" as sometimes if something seems to be too perfect it usually is, and the only possible explanation that there is will also usually be the one that the audience will think of as well.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Jul 23, 2019 07:32AM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2019, Chuck Finley wrote:
I have a question for the card folks out there: what to you think is the holy grail of card magic. This is meant to be totally opinion based. Is it the perfect bottom deal, center deal, maybe its as simple color monte, or anything really. Why do you think its the holy grail. [/quote]

Seems to me this discussion has gotten off track. The way I understood it, Chuck was looking for EXISTING effects or sleights that are considered by you to be the holy grail.

Some have begun to conjure up fantasy effects. I don't think that is what was intended.
Message: Posted by: Josepher (Jul 23, 2019 07:38AM)
Sorry about that. My suggestion was a fantasy effect. I think there is no existing Holy Grail.
If there was it would be overdone, and eventually exposed.

Give me a Mem Deck, some perfected false shuffles and cuts, and a lay audience. That's my Grail.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 23, 2019 11:58AM)
Yes Joseph-er butYou Cant have the spectator shuffle the cards , my un holy grail does this
vinny
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jul 23, 2019 02:13PM)
"But when I speak of HG tricks I am speaking of what is actually possible and out there already, not "theories" that would be HG IF you could do them. "

Ah, that's a different story. Sorry I misunderstood. Yes, I agree, the Invisible Deck presentation is probably the greatest card effect I've experienced.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Jul 23, 2019 06:56PM)
Steve, is it a normal deck ?
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Jul 23, 2019 09:12PM)
Quoting sirbrad:
"But nonetheless there are many ways to make the spectator think that you actually did this anyway, and having a thought of card reverse itself is just one of the ways. The trick is usually a lot bigger in the spectator's memory than it actually really is, and with great misdirection and presentation it is even bigger. A lot of times magicians try to impress themselves first, then hope that the audience is also impressed. Sometimes they are, but sometimes their lack of knowledge and having no other comparison prevents them from fully understanding just how impressive something really was.

So sometimes it is the magician is who is impressed mostly, we call that "running without being chased". You also have to be careful about the "too perfect theory" as sometimes if something seems to be too perfect it usually is, and the only possible explanation that there is will also usually be the one that the audience will think of as well."

Yes perhaps this is a little off track but this is PURE GENIUS. Very deep and incisive thinking. Thanks so much, we all need to be reminded of this often. To "stay on track" in magic.
Message: Posted by: sirbrad (Jul 23, 2019 10:15PM)
Thanks, yeah as many know on here I have always been a big fan of magic theory and presentation, and deep psychological thinking which is why I posted so many long essays on the subject in the past; back when I had more time to write. All based on my own experiences of doing magic for about 38 years now, and about 29 years professionally and counting. Sometimes you can even tend to "over-think" as well which I also do, which can also provide a lot of valuable lessons. So that is fine, as long as you are aware of it and know in the end what actually works.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Jul 25, 2019 10:51PM)
Affirming Mr. Pupkin,
Yes if you could really do magic, would you just have a card at a NUMBER.? In this day and age numbers are kind of boring. As sirbrad said, having a card appear at an impossible location is more memorable to the spectators.

So we are seeing glaring differences between what spectators consider impossible and what magicians use to fool each other. I would side with spectators. I have to get paid for my shows ok.
Message: Posted by: DaveM (Jul 26, 2019 03:11PM)
My days of performing are pretty much over, but the one effect I would carry around for a serious punch would be Oberon's "Bang On"
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Jul 27, 2019 03:14PM)
For a bit of humor, there's a youtube out there of Steve Martin doing a thought of card effect for Johnny Carson. When Johnny names a card, Steve holding another card, shouts out... "you're wrong"! Lynn
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Jul 27, 2019 06:47PM)
Excellent gag ! Especially for those who like to take risks !
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Jul 28, 2019 08:29PM)
Dear lynnef, I cannot thank you enough. I will use that gag from now on. How about using it for naming someone personal too?

wow so funny. what a great gag especially if you end up right . You could pull so many laughs potentially out of this. I can't thank you enough!!!!!1!!!!!!!!@!!@@@!!!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: larotule (Jul 29, 2019 08:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
Single card face down on the table. Spec names a card. Turn over the card and there it is. Repeat two more times. [/quote]

[quote]On Jul 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
Single card face down on the table. Spec names a card. Turn over the card and there it is. Repeat two more times. [/quote]

My five "holy grails" (magician POV)

1 - Derren Brown "Three Of Clubs" Force ...
2 - "Rain man" Sal Piacente (TRS System from Steve Forte)
3 - Move a Card
4 - Acaan
5 - Caan

Spectator's POV : Any DL card trick :-)
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Jul 30, 2019 07:12PM)
How can we learn your method ?
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Jul 31, 2019 08:34PM)
Is there something with the strange dealing method ?
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Aug 4, 2019 01:23PM)
So you can let the spectator deal the cards ?
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Aug 8, 2019 11:04PM)
Iím lost, maybe drowning in a small canal of VeniceÖ
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Aug 9, 2019 12:48AM)
Prediction:
Xacaan will soon be available for $500.

Mentalista (previously known as Magic Boy here at the Cafť), has a long history of creating ACAANs and hyping them here. The last one was $400 or $500 if I recall (different method).

Also, that last video with two decks, I think it uses a different set of methods than the one he performs on Skype. I don't speak Italian, is he using the joker to select the card? Also how does he get the number? I think it's a throw off though...
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Aug 9, 2019 10:36AM)
If a magician were to do real magic, he would not choose to put a card at a number. Numbers are boring. so what. use a partial one way then switch it out.

for spectators an impossible location of a card, preferably signed, is a miracle. Or even turning mind to mind reading with cards. as real as it gets. I would have to buy No-doze for my show spectators if I did any card at any number they could care less about. this is the wholly fail. but glad you like it.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 9, 2019 01:29PM)
I have never seen any ACAAN that I would use in a paid performance. I don't think it is conceptually appealing to laymen. It is popular with magicians because they see the difficulties, and because they can see possible methods.
It is a magician's "puzzle."
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Aug 9, 2019 05:08PM)
400-500 dollars really ?! There is so much better magic for a so much lower price, I canít believe someone can pay this price for a single method of such a derivative trick, because I second Pop here, from discussing with laymen, my conclusion is audiences donít find it as impressive as magicians doÖ

But I must confess I liked the challenge to try to discover the method of Mentalista. I failedÖ And the method is obviously great. Congrats !
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Aug 9, 2019 07:15PM)
There have been a lot of fads in magic. The acaan plot is the latest.
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Aug 12, 2019 02:35PM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I have never seen any ACAAN that I would use in a paid performance. I don't think it is conceptually appealing to laymen. It is popular with magicians because they see the difficulties, and because they can see possible methods.
It is a magician's "puzzle." [/quote]

Very insightful, Pop! And it's not just about the counting (cf cards across effects which I've noticed spectators really enjoy). ACAAN IS the holy grail for magicians, who mess with the puzzle on our own, but perform with other effects. One of Jay Sankey's clips shows an extremely simple ACAAN (my favorite, really, since it only has one sleight other than bringing a card to the top!). On the clip, Jay refers to ACAAN "the holy grail for card magicians." So yes, I too feel the allure of the puzzle and understand our obsession with it. Lynn
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 12, 2019 02:57PM)
Jesus drank wine from a grail formed from playing-cards at the Last Supper.
Message: Posted by: AceOfShades (Aug 25, 2019 05:58PM)
I might say something gambling related, as it may be more relatable to spectators than ACAAN or something like that. Maybe take a shuffled, borrowed deck and deal out a winning poker hand or all the aces or whatnot. Doesn't have to have a million methods to fool a layman hard, although gambling sleights tend to emphasize quality over quantity anyways from what I have seen.
Message: Posted by: shaunluttin (Aug 27, 2019 10:34PM)
Spectator shuffles the cards, and they turn into a duck. The difficulty identifying the subject in the second phrase causes the audience to melt into puddles of cheese. Someone realizes it's edam. The magician says, "made", and the cheese morphs back into the audience, which collectively names a card. The duck quacks, chokes out a card, and it turns into the spectator. The cool feel of a breeze creates goose bumps despite the sealed room.
Message: Posted by: AceOfShades (Aug 28, 2019 01:30PM)
Listen, strange ducks laying in ponds distributing cards is no basis for a system of magic. Supreme magical effect derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Message: Posted by: JoshDude849 (Aug 28, 2019 08:32PM)
I don't think there is really a holy grail in terms of slight of hand. What matters more, is whether or not you performed it in a way that makes it a MIRACLE!

Josh
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 28, 2019 10:15PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, JoshDude849 wrote:
I don't think there is really a holy grail in terms of slight of hand.[/quote]Have you seen Chad Nelson's clipshift? That's useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4kxNx3PA1E
Message: Posted by: JoshDude849 (Aug 29, 2019 01:45AM)
I actually haven't seen that before. I must admit that is pretty ingenious.

But of course, some dummy decided to reveal it on YouTube.

Josh
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 29, 2019 12:07PM)
Clipshift is such a monkey knuckle buster.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 29, 2019 01:56PM)
My idea of a Holy Grail for card magic would be that the face down card in the spectator's hand changes to whatever card they freely name.
Or, the spectator signs a card and puts it in the middle of the pack which he is holding. When he taps the top of the deck, his card comes to the top.
Message: Posted by: jaschris (Aug 29, 2019 08:09PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2019, Gerald Deutsch wrote:
To entertain the audience!!!! [/quote]

After 15 years in magic, I couldn't agree more!
Message: Posted by: JoshDude849 (Aug 30, 2019 12:04AM)
That's pretty much the entire idea.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 30, 2019 12:54AM)
Entertaining the audience is not the grail. It is just the first step.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Aug 30, 2019 07:22AM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
Entertaining the audience is not the grail. It is just the first step. [/quote]

I agree. Astonishment needs to be part of the result. But I'd love to hear a pro's take on it. Please tell us more!
Message: Posted by: ryanshaw9572 (Aug 30, 2019 11:39AM)
If there is a holy grail, I donít want to know what it is.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Aug 30, 2019 12:35PM)
Think of any card now deal down to any number and that card is the thought of card
Message: Posted by: ryanshaw9572 (Aug 30, 2019 12:43PM)
You could just hope it works and then film until it does. Anything goes in magic nowadays, right? (Sarcasm)
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 30, 2019 01:59PM)
There is an interesting split of folks that interpret The Answer as a Mental or Physical grail.
Does the grail defy the Mind, or Nature?
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 30, 2019 02:02PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, vinsmagic wrote:
Think of any card now deal down to any number and that card is the thought of card [/quote]

Think of any card, turn over the top card. It is the thought of card.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Aug 30, 2019 02:10PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, vinsmagic wrote:
Think of any card now deal down to any number and that card is the thought of card [/quote]

Think of any card, turn over the top card. It is the thought of card. [/quote]

OK, work with me here! Since the routine is generally billed as ANY card at ANY number, then there is certainly no reason why the spectator couldn't choose 1 as their number, right? So that would be the exact effect you describe.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Aug 30, 2019 02:24PM)
Mathematically it's the same, but conceptually it's a bit different. The rationalization for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the top of the deck isn't going to be the same for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the 19th position (or whatever).

Not that I think ACAAN is necessarily the better trick.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 30, 2019 02:31PM)
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 30, 2019 02:53PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that? [/quote]

In the future, screens will be so slim and bendable you can make a stack of 52 that exactly mimic a deck of playing-cards.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Aug 30, 2019 02:56PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that? [/quote]

Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Aug 30, 2019 03:12PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that? [/quote]

Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance. [/quote]

The latter effect is known as Universal Card. You probably knew that but others might not.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Aug 30, 2019 03:32PM)
Tortuga,

Actually, I was thinking of a generic multiplication of one card into several. It can be very startling, and is one reason why asymmetrical transpositions can play so strong.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 30, 2019 03:49PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
I don't see how any of these are anywhere near as clean as the face down card in the spectator's hand turning into whatever card he chooses in his mind. Any Card at Any Number is just so procedural. It doesn't have the simplicity and directness.

Consider the possible solutions. If the spectator has an indifferent card face down in his hand and thinks of any card, and then turns that card over and it has changed to his thought of card, there can be no explanation other than that the face of the card changed to whatever he thought of...real magic. What could be more of a holy grail than that? [/quote]

Two possible barriers...

First, the shortcomings of our extant methods would leave us too far away from the target, and the directness of the effect would amplify that. "You switched the card before you put it in my hand." is a hell of a hurdle to overcome. Meanwhile, features of ACAAN (or perhaps something else less encumbered by procedure) could be leveraged to bring the actual effect very close to its target, without easy rationalizations for how it was accomplished. For instance, look at the way the Elmsley Count and Twisting the Aces work together.

Second, if you really had the power to change something in somebody's hands that cleanly, is that the effect you would go for? Consider the contrast between changing an indifferent card into their thought-of card, and changing a single indifferent card into five spectators' thought-of cards, for instance. [/quote]

I think the Chicago Surprise comes close. The idea is a Holy Grail--something that truly seems impossible. If attainability is important, then it isn't much of a grail. Man's reach should exceed his grasp. Personally, I have never thought ACAAN is a strong concept.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 30, 2019 05:20PM)
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 30, 2019 10:13PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific. [/quote]

What trouble are you referring to?
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Aug 30, 2019 11:22PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Tortuga,

Actually, I was thinking of a generic multiplication of one card into several. It can be very startling, and is one reason why asymmetrical transpositions can play so strong. [/quote]

Gotcha. I'm not a huge fan of assymetrical transpositions unless there is motivation in the presentation.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Aug 30, 2019 11:23PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific. [/quote]

Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions....
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 31, 2019 09:54AM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific. [/quote]

Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions.... [/quote]

I concur. I'm suggesting the more esoteric responses are answering a more universal question about magic. Not a bad question itself.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Aug 31, 2019 05:21PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 31, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific. [/quote]

Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions.... [/quote]

I concur. I'm suggesting the more esoteric responses are answering a more universal question about magic. Not a bad question itself. [/quote]

Could you explain a bit more about your position. I am not clear what you are saying and how it applies to this question.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 31, 2019 07:12PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
[quote]On Aug 31, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 31, 2019, Tortuga wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
The trouble with transmogrification magic is it isn't card-specific. [/quote]

Neither are color changes, vanishes, restorations, productions.... [/quote]

I concur. I'm suggesting the more esoteric responses are answering a more universal question about magic. Not a bad question itself. [/quote]

Could you explain a bit more about your position. I am not clear what you are saying and how it applies to this question. [/quote]

I roll a lovely assistant in a giant Ace of spades and cut them in half, then join them again for a whole assistant and a giant Queen of Hearts. I'm suggesting this isn't card magic unless we bend definition beyond reason.
I like the op question as an interesting exercise but without borders it becomes Name a Miracle.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Sep 1, 2019 03:20AM)
What sort of borders do you recommend? What sort of card trick would make a Holy Grail? What is the most powerful effect that can be accomplished using playing cards? Why is that not worth considering? The tricks I suggested are real magic effects. Are you saying there is no way to accomplish these effects?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 1, 2019 05:03AM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Mathematically it's the same, but conceptually it's a bit different. The rationalization for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the top of the deck isn't going to be the same for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the 19th position (or whatever).

Not that I think ACAAN is necessarily the better trick. [/quote]
The effect isn't that the magician "got it there" in either scenario.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Sep 1, 2019 10:17AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Mathematically it's the same, but conceptually it's a bit different. The rationalization for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the top of the deck isn't going to be the same for how the magician could have gotten a thought-of card to the 19th position (or whatever).

Not that I think ACAAN is necessarily the better trick. [/quote]
The effect isn't that the magician "got it there" in either scenario. [/quote]

I wasn't talking about the effect. I was talking about the suspicion that can undermine the effect which we need to deal with.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 1, 2019 01:12PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:
What sort of borders do you recommend? What sort of card trick would make a Holy Grail? What is the most powerful effect that can be accomplished using playing cards? Why is that not worth considering? The tricks I suggested are real magic effects. Are you saying there is no way to accomplish these effects? [/quote]

Considering questions of possibility is always a worthwhile endeavor to push art and science forward. I'm personally reading a narrow interpretation of card-magic that excludes alternate forms such as stage and mentaliam. I'm familiar with your astonishing work and meant no affront.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Sep 1, 2019 01:38PM)
I took no offense. I am talking about card magic. I am perfectly willing to talk about just close-up card magic. The questions are still the same. I just am not sure what you are saying.
Message: Posted by: kShepher (Sep 6, 2019 08:22PM)
I think the holy grail in magic is to put smiles and the sense of amazement on your spectators faces....regardless of technique.

If magicians are your audience, then that statement might be modified.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Sep 6, 2019 09:02PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, kShepher wrote:
I think the holy grail in magic is to put smiles and the sense of amazement on your spectators faces....regardless of technique.

If magicians are your audience, then that statement might be modified. [/quote]

I would think that that is the barest and most basic requirement of performing magic.

Just a nice drinking cup; not the grail.
Message: Posted by: kShepher (Sep 6, 2019 09:32PM)
Ok, Pop. That was a simplistic reply.

From a technical point I would say the holy grail is a 100% realible pinky count, and the ability to riffle stack at will. And do perfect, and partial faros with any deck.

Kevin
Message: Posted by: kShepher (Sep 6, 2019 09:36PM)
From a personal and amazement perspective I would add mastery of Dai Vernon's Cups and Balls routine....with the wand spin...-;))
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2019 12:14AM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, kShepher wrote:
...to put smiles and the sense of amazement on your spectators faces....regardless of technique.
[/quote]
+1 to that basic nice drinking cup :)
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Sep 7, 2019 12:40AM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, kShepher wrote:
...to put smiles and the sense of amazement on your spectators faces....regardless of technique.
[/quote]
+1 to that basic nice drinking cup :) [/quote]

Beats drinking out of your hands...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 24, 2019 05:41PM)
How many times in a row can your method do that trick?
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Sep 25, 2019 07:24AM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
How many times in a row can your method do that trick? [/quote]

I think method(s) is more appropriate here.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Sep 25, 2019 07:43AM)
So simply put and looks amazing. 😁
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Sep 25, 2019 10:20AM)
Not sure why there is not more posts here, this looks amazing..."Holy Grail" territory. 🤔


https://www.facebook.com/VocedelNord/videos/10220005504386379/
Message: Posted by: Ben Bob (Sep 26, 2019 10:44PM)
I think the Holy Grail In card magic is Something that entertain the spectator well.This is the first one. The second one is that it should look like the real magic.It should be incredible. But the holy Grail Which has the meaning of unachievable ,and we have done some magic very well,Like the triumph and some Cards in any location. When we send some limits on it, it will be unachievable. However, I always think that what matters most is the effect. If the limits don't change the effect,It's meaningless.As for me,I like the card in the spectators pocket and think of a card.I don't like the AC CAN
personally.Because I think it has been performed so much times .But it can't be denied that it's a strong effect.
Message: Posted by: Ben Bob (Sep 26, 2019 11:12PM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2019, mentalista78 wrote:
Https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10220118841739742&id=1186389030 little trailer film X.A.C.A.A.N. [/quote]
I really want to meet you and See your performance if possible.It's really incredible and amazing if it's true.
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Oct 14, 2019 06:16AM)
Why are we not talking about a true 51FN. One where they stop anywhere in the deck, you never touch the card, the deck is never even in your hands, and your prediction is correct.

-Elisha
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Oct 14, 2019 06:19AM)
Also, I applaud your use of those cards. I have used the same ones, and performing anything with them is a beast.
Message: Posted by: Rizzo (Oct 18, 2019 08:02AM)
Any website? Do not do Facebook
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Oct 31, 2019 07:25AM)
It would be nice to get this thread back to the original posters intent and not an advertisement for someone's product. If you want to sell an effect, take out an ad like all of the paid sponsors that help fund this place.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Nov 1, 2019 07:40PM)
Assuming "holy grail" is [b][i] a thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after [/i][/b] as defined [url=https://lmgtfy.com/?q=holy+grail&s=g] here [/url]:

Something that is quick, interesting (to non-magi), clear, visual, involves spectator involvement, can be repeated (this would normally be a low priority but we're talking grail here), and can be done impromptu (or even improvised).

In my experience, ACAAN doesn't generally fit the bill, as interesting as I find them. It was a weird realization because my first thought was "Holy grail? A clean ACAAN of course!" So this is a good example of how setting criteria up first can really add clarity. As for what is my personal holy grail, I have to re-assess now. Hopefully I'll come up with something, and then come up with how to do it.

Great discussion!
Message: Posted by: LuttinShaun (Nov 1, 2019 08:20PM)
> [b]thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after[/b]

What comes to mind is [i]a 30-minute session that satisfies both me and the audience[/i].

For me, a key criteria is simplicity of equipment: one deck of standard bikes and a black Sharpie.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Nov 1, 2019 10:08PM)
Why a black sharpie ? You can do amazing things without it. Why a deck of cards ? You can do amazing things without anything too.

It changes all the time, but for now, my holy grail would be able to reveal something someone is thinking of, without that person saying a single word.
Message: Posted by: LuttinShaun (Nov 2, 2019 11:26AM)
A black sharpie helps with The Comet Effect, which is an idea I first learned from Juan Tamaraiz in The Magic Rainbow. By making a personal connection with the playing card (because the spectator signed it), the after effect is longer (the tail of the comet).

A deck of cards is important because the title of this thread is, "What is the holy grail in card magic?" For me personally, a deck of cards is important for card magic.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Nov 3, 2019 06:30PM)
I was just throwing some provoking questions. No offense to you Shaun ! Sorry if I hurt your feelings !

By the way, we can do card tricks without cards !
Message: Posted by: LuttinShaun (Nov 3, 2019 07:13PM)
No feelings hurt. There is something vaguely Taoist about doing card tricks without cards. That's not something I have pursued, so for me, personally, it isn't a holy grail item ("a thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after"), whereas for me, personally, 30-minutes of tricks with only physical cards (Bicycles) and a Sharpie is what I have been pursuing for 26 years, on and off. The longer I pursue this, the closer I come to its realization, and the more I go back to simple, direct plots such as The Ambitious Card, Oil & Water, Slow Motion Aces, and The Homing Card. It's compelling evidence that we need to come full circle and rediscover that with which we started.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Nov 4, 2019 01:37PM)
Yes Shaun, first loves have eternal charmsÖ
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Nov 4, 2019 02:03PM)
[quote]On Nov 1, 2019, LuttinShaun wrote:
> [b]thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after[/b]

What comes to mind is [i]a 30-minute session that satisfies both me and the audience[/i].

For me, a key criteria is simplicity of equipment: one deck of standard bikes and a black Sharpie. [/quote]

IMHO, Shaun is spot on!

Being able to take provide a truly entertaining experience for 15...20...even 30 minutes with nothing but a plain deck and marker is the goal to strive for.
There's lots of incredible gaffs, one-shot wonders, etc.....but being able to sit/stand anywhere, anytime and rock'em....that's the holy grail IMHO.
Message: Posted by: RCarruth (Nov 4, 2019 07:16PM)
For me.. the Holy Grail would be something so simplistic.. there would be nothing to figure out. The magician looks through a pack of cards, removes one, holds it up with back toward the spectator, and ask the spectator to name a card. The spectator names a card.. and the magician turns the card to reveal the match. No sleights.. no possibility of sleights or other manipulations. Hope the following isn't too much info, but after going for the Holy Grail I do this..keeping in mind men usually pick obscure cards like 3, 6 or 9 of Clubs or Spades. Women, of course, love to pick Queen of Hearts or Diamonds and sometimes 2 of Heart or Diamonds.. I stick the card back in the deck, shrug my shoulders and say..'Oh well..' ... and we laugh. I tell them that little trick usually works about once every 52 times.. they get the reference.. and we laugh again. While we're laughing, I glance through the deck, find the card they named, and bring it to the top. I create packets and do a magicians c----e about five or six layers deep.. let them discover their card is the last one remaining.. ask them again 'what was the card you named earlier".. and show them the last card remaining is the card they picked. This is simplistic stuff.. but it really works on a lay audience. And when the card they name IS the card I'm holding up at first.. about once every 12 times of so.. it leaves them speechless. That's MY Holy Grail.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Nov 5, 2019 01:40PM)
My thought is it is getting more than a bit old.
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Nov 5, 2019 02:12PM)
We've been inundated by these ACAAN routines and it is time to move on. That's the explanation.
BTW, is it only me or has a certain someone's posts been removed from this thread? That may explain why this is starting up again.
Message: Posted by: LuttinShaun (Nov 5, 2019 11:18PM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2019, Zauberman wrote:
IMHO, Shaun is spot on!
[/quote]
Thank you for the encouragement.
Message: Posted by: Dan Andrus (Nov 6, 2019 12:54PM)
The holy grail has to be the mastery of the Altman Trap. It's all downhill after that.......
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Nov 6, 2019 01:38PM)
[quote]On Nov 6, 2019, Dan Andrus wrote:
The holy grail has to be the mastery of the Altman Trap. It's all downhill after that....... [/quote]

You know, you are so right. Allan Ackerman makes it look sooooo easy!
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Nov 7, 2019 05:40PM)
Allan makes all the most difficult sleights look so easy, itís almost annoying ! 😂
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (Nov 9, 2019 01:09AM)
[quote]On Nov 7, 2019, Rachmaninov wrote:
Allan makes all the most difficult sleights look so easy, itís almost annoying ! 😂 [/quote]

But the Altman Trap *is* easy, isn't it? Or does the natural pudginess at the base of my left thumb make it easier *for me*? Or do the cards separate for you after you do the trap, when you are pushing the card(s) over to turn them face down? Doesn't the trap make that easier too? These comments confuse me. I can barely do any sleight of hand any more but I can do that. What I have trouble with is the *glide.* What planet am I on?
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Nov 9, 2019 01:27PM)
Everybody has his own weaknesses and strengths, difficult things appear simple to others and vice versa. The extremely difficult stuff is hard for everybodyÖ
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Nov 12, 2019 09:10AM)
For me the Holy Grail would look like this, spectator thinks of a card (he never says it out loud), and then in the fairer way he finds it.
I think that would be my Holy Grail if we were talking about effects, but if we were talking about the way your magic is felt I strongly think that if your magic is felt like real magic, at least for an instance, then that would be my Holy Grail.

Sorry if I made any mistakes by my poor english,
Cristobal
Message: Posted by: Tortuga (Nov 14, 2019 03:35PM)
One that has to be high on the list of "grail" effects has to be "Given the Slip" as performed by Dai Vernon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpXLUoDcy6M
Message: Posted by: bluejay17! (Nov 16, 2019 09:39AM)
Those who saw it before the mods took it down, you have been blessed.