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Topic: Coin assembly: realization and question
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 23, 2004 11:38AM)
Four coins are introduced as special and magnetic. One is pulled from the group, and flies back to join the others.

The coins are arranged into a small rectangle on the floor and covered by a sheet of paper. After a moment, the sheet is lifted and all four coins are found together under one corner.

The paper is torn into quarters, and these quarter sheets are arranged in a rectangle on the floor. Each of the coins is placed under a different piece of paper. After a moment, the coins are found together.

Should the 'magnetism' of the coins then be transferred to the paper, thus restoring it whole?
Message: Posted by: mystre71 (May 23, 2004 12:48PM)
RE: Should the 'magnetism' of the coins then be transferred to the paper, thus restoring it whole?


I think it would over shadow the effect of the assembly.

I remember years ago a friend did an assembly that started with four X cards and at the end he turned over the cards to show the X cards were now aces. No one even noticed.


Perhaps AFTER the effect sinks in then push the coins aside (Not away, just aside) then restore the paper? The sheet of paper would provide good cover to produce a really big "Extra" coin, that is should you want to take that route.

Best
Joe
Message: Posted by: twistedace (May 23, 2004 12:56PM)
I agree that it may overshadow the initial effect. Plus magnetism being transferred to paper does not make sense...to me anyway. Also, the explanation of the paper being magnetic gives the spectator a false clue as to how the initial effect was done. They probably won't believe it, but they will grasp at anything to explain the impossible. If they have some sort of false explanation in their mind then it's not really magic but a puzzle they must figure out. I know it's hard to believe but effects like matrix and shadow coins don't need elaborate presentations or stories because of their highly visual and magical nature.
Message: Posted by: Randy Sager (May 23, 2004 01:46PM)
Jonathan if you want to do a torn and restored effect what about starting out with performing Misers Miracle by Jerry Andrus? If I remember correctly the cards are torn in the routine.

Just a thought.
Message: Posted by: Jason Wethington (May 23, 2004 05:34PM)
Twistedace brings up an interesting point. Should the spectator's have an "out" or a false explanation for magic? I personally use pseudo science to explain a lot of things in my act. I do it tongue in cheek. I don't expect my audience to believe me when I tell them a coin travels around my body by virtue of my circulatory system. What I hope it does is give them a visual that later on they will remember as to "what happened".

I like the visual image of paper becoming magnetic. It sets up certain pictures in your mind that would look very cool if it were possible. I would imagine it like those drawing boards with the iron shavings. They just "jump" onto the magnet. I can see the bits of paper flying between two torn pieces and weaving together. I like it!

I would concur with Joe that it should be done as an after thought. Perhaps only used if the spectators move you in that direction? For example if after you've completed the collection sequence, someone says "That's good but can you put the paper back together?". Then you do. You've answered a challenge but it's more organic than just putting the paper back together because you can. See what I mean? I like the idea but I'm not sure if it should be an absolute of the routine.
Jason
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (May 23, 2004 06:32PM)
RE: "someone say's "That's good but can you put the paper back together?"

I'm on the fence there. I typically don't like setting a precedent of answering spectators challenges, although, the restoration as an afterthought is a very nice touch, and a very nice option to have at your disposal.

The routine in general sounds excellent. My only question is in reference to the introduction of the coins as being magnetic. That takes a false assumption a little too close to a correct assumption for my taste. I would be hard pressed to use any magnetic gaffs after using that premise in a previously done routine.

Of course, with good magic, there should be no need to worry about the spectator "figuring you out", no matter what gaff or premises you use.

Best,

Mike
Message: Posted by: Frankm6 (May 23, 2004 06:34PM)
I like it Jonathan- There’s drama and poetry to it. The restored paper is not the climax of the effect, it's the dénouement and so, I believe, doesn’t take away from the effect. Use an old piece of parchment with calligraphy on it and use very old coins from another country. I like the routine the more I imagine/think about it.
Message: Posted by: rawdawg (May 23, 2004 07:54PM)
Yes, imagine the routine/trick is an heirloom passed down from generation to generation by a secret underground magic cabal. It continually regenerates itself so that it's secrets will never be lost for future magicians. If only they could unlock it's secrets.

Or something like that.

I'm not so sure about disclosing the "magnetic" properties of the coins. Wouldn't it be more engaging if the properties that make it work were lost to time? That the modern generation of magicians have been working on the problem to no avail. That right now, you have it on loan from the Bibliothek die Magie, Vienna. That you can feel the secret beckon to you, teasing you with it's mysterious breath. That if you could just lift the shadows from its dark veil, it would reveal its truth, its beauty, its joy to your unworthy eyes.

Or something like that.
Message: Posted by: mike gallo (May 23, 2004 09:05PM)
Should the 'magnetism' of the coins then be transferred to the paper, thus restoring it whole?


Jonathan, other than "covers"...the paper has no real bearing on the effect. therefore, the restoration would seem to me to be anti-climatic. On the other hand...it would be all the rave for magicians as you now brought the effect to full circle!

Mike
Message: Posted by: Jason Wethington (May 23, 2004 09:23PM)
My question to all who think that the magnetism would be too close to the truth is, "why?".

I like the idea of the old parchment and mysterious symbols . Some old Roman coins or replica pieces would be a nice touch I think.
Cheers,
Jason
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 24, 2004 07:47AM)
I honestly think it would be an interesting ending to the whole routine. I mean why would you tear the paper just to cover the coins? I mean you 'are' a magician, you could have just used cards.


Plus I think restoring them for a jumbo coin production would make for a surprising climax.


There will be people that will say, "Can you put the pieces back together?" if you tear the paper. It may have nothing to do with the trick, but lay people always try to catch a victory from you, no matter how small. And I always hate that spot you are in when they ask you to do something, and you can't do it. You are supposed to be a magician, why can't you do it?

I think if no one asks, don't do it, but they do, then you have the option of doing it, and really frying them.
Message: Posted by: Dave Egleston (May 24, 2004 10:41AM)
You detractors realize that Mr Townsend is merely SAYING the coins have magnetic qualities and aren't really shimmed coins - Right - And the audience also sees they are not truly magnetic during the prelude to the trick- The coins are not REALLY attracted to each other during the routine - You're not giving the audience an "out" - They'll constantly see the coins being handled and rearranged with no attraction during handling

Paper having magnetic qualities is almost as ridiculous as real coins having magnetic qualities and adds to the suspension of belief - Because the magician is inducing the magnetism to objects that can't normally be magnetized

I think there are a couple of writers that think the matrix was actually being accomplished with magnets

Dave
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 24, 2004 12:21PM)
Actually, the coins up here in Canada don't need to be shimmed, because a magnet will pick them up.


I know a lot of people who carry a small magnet in their front trouser pocket to stop the noise of change rattling in their pocket as they walk.


Just thought you might like to know, seeing as though real coins having magnetic qualities being ridiculous and all. ;)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 24, 2004 12:25PM)
There you go, why not take out a few coins and a magnet then?

Put the magnet and the coins into an array, and start the trick.

Then, after tearing the paper into quarters, again the coins go under the papers, and the magnet in the corner (not attached this time :) ) still attracts them over.

Sounds okay to me. What are your thoughts?
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 24, 2004 01:22PM)
Actually that's pretty sweet. I'm liking the thought process of the routine, and with the magnet, it makes sense for the coins to gather.


I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labour Mr. Townsend.
Message: Posted by: JimMaloney (May 24, 2004 01:36PM)
If the coins are (supposedly) magnetic, where's the magic?

Isn't magic about defying nature, not demonstrating it?

-Jim
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 24, 2004 01:44PM)
If the coins slid from card to card, then yes, that would be science, but the fact that the audience misses the travel of the coin entirely makes it an impossibilty.


The lay public knows that even with magnetics, they would still see the coin travel, when it arrives with no means of propulsion, its magic.



(Jon, a nice jumbo production idea would be instead of a jumbo coin, you could produce one of those big horse shoe magnets. Just an idea.)
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (May 24, 2004 05:26PM)
[quote]
On 2004-05-24 08:47, James Harrison wrote:
There will be people that will say, "Can you put the peices back together?" if you tear the paper. It may have nothing to do with the trick, but lay people always try to catch a victory from you, no matter how small. And I always hate that spot you are in when they ask you to do something, and you can't do it. You are supposed to be a magician, why can't you do it?
[/quote]

There are reasons for not doing something even if you can do it. I'm with Wildstone on this in that I generally don't like answering spectator challenges (and to be honest, I'm very rarely challenged). This is true even if I [b]can[/b] meet the challenge. Why? Because [b]I[/b] want to control the performance, I don't want the [b]audience[/b] to do that.

Larry D.
Message: Posted by: Dave Egleston (May 24, 2004 05:43PM)
[quote]
On 2004-05-24 13:21, James Harrison wrote:
Actually, the coins up here in Canada don't need to be shimmed, because a magnet will pick them up.


I know a lot of people who carry a small magnet in their front trouser pocket to stop the noise of change rattling in their pocket as they walk.


Just thought you might like to know, seeing as though real coins having magnetic qualities being ridiculous and all. ;)
[/quote]

You're right - I'm A U.S.citizen and as such don't have the exposure to money made with iron based metals.

However, saying that: the idea is to show there is no magnetic qualities in the coins normally and the idea of introducing magnetism is the belief stretching that's we know as magic - How many other freaking "Lawyer's" are going to chime in?

The object is to create magic not stifle it.

Dave
Message: Posted by: mystre71 (May 24, 2004 06:44PM)
I didn't see the question as pertaining to the presentation of whether or not the coin were magnetic but more of whether or not to restore the paper.

I still think the restoration should be done as an afterthought effect.
I do think that if someone would ask or challenge (Bet you can't put that back together) you to restore the paper and you can you should.
Reason being One, it will shut down any would be hecklers.
And Two, not all people that say "Can you put the pieces back together are hecklers, they might be saying this all in good fun, to some of these type of people it may just make it look as if you can do anything they ask, making you seem even more amazing then they first thought.

These are just my opinions, and I'm sure some will say if you met their demands of restoring the paper, then they might just challenge you on every effect you do after this, more then likely if this happens it don't matter what you do they are going to challenge you. To this I would probably turn to someone else at that table and say in a joking way "Can't please everyone can you?" and end my set early.

Again just my opinions.

Best
Joe
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (May 24, 2004 08:01PM)
I like this idea, although the following might be overkill:

1. The coins are set out in the familiar square formation.

2. The sheet of paper is quartered, and the coins covered as described.

3. The first coin vanishes, and appears in the gathering corner. That shown, both sections of the paper are placed on the two gathered coins.

4. Repeat for coins #2 and #3. After showing all four coins under the pile of pieces...

5. Open out the pile, showing that the pieces have restored "...back in time, before the paper was torn..."

6. Lift up the opened sheet, revealing that the coins are back in their starting positions. "...and there was a coin in every corner."

For the Bizarrists in the house, the paper is a newspaper,and to prove that it's gone back in time, show that it's a paper from last week.

For the "Wonder Wizards" in the house, you then prove that you've gone back in time because it's now before the time when you introduced yourself. How can we tell? Ask them what you name is. No one ever remembers the magician's name. Q.E.D.
Message: Posted by: twistedace (May 24, 2004 08:16PM)
Jon, I actually thought of a very commercial routine for the plot of the paper merging at the end of the assembly and was wondering if I could have your approval of using the basic idea of the 4 pieces of paper merging. I cannot give the premise of the routine openly in forums but I think it is creative and fun.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 24, 2004 08:39PM)
Credits as far as I know: The basic idea of a quartered bit of paper restoring goes back to the torn and restored card plot. Using a full sheet of paper kind of goes back to Ramsay with his tissue paper.

I have not seen the thing done using a sheet of colored construction paper or writing paper or in context of a coin assembly. It struck me as an organic way to create the covers after showing the assembly effect with the coins under the corners of the whole sheet.

PM if you want to discuss.
Message: Posted by: mystre71 (May 24, 2004 09:48PM)
Re:(Jon, a nice jumbo production idea would be instead of a jumbo coin, you could produce one of those big horse shoe magnets. Just an idea.)

What if you start out by drawing a picture of a magnet on the corner of the paper where the coins gather?



Joe
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 24, 2004 10:37PM)
Joe,

Thats a nice idea.

Makes the plot interesting.


Dave,


I apologise for not seeing something that you do, but how would this stifle it?


There are other ideas for showing the coins are magnetic in other routines. David Williamson showed a bunch of us a way to make a coin appear to be magnetic, as it appeared to be stuck together and as you pull them apart they seemed drawn to each other. Another is in Harbottle's Cointopia where he uses the fingertip muscle pass and talks about showing that the coins are magnetic and shoots them across visibly. How would this version of the magnetic coins plot be any different?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 25, 2004 06:49AM)
Curtis showed me the snap-it like move with coins back around 79-80 on his visit to NY. It seems appropriate to the trick. Last I saw him do the thing, it seemed like the coin jumped about a foot. Spooky. I suspect the bit is his.
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 25, 2004 08:29AM)
Sorry Jon,


David didn't tell us where he learned it, otherwise I'm sure it would of been Curtis's as well.
Message: Posted by: Jason Wethington (May 25, 2004 09:12AM)
Jon I wonder if this magnetic coin bit is the thing that Curtis does (but doesn't explain) at the beginning of his Palms os Steel vol.1?
Jason
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (May 25, 2004 09:59AM)
Jason,

That's the fingertip muscle pass.
Message: Posted by: bdekolta (May 25, 2004 01:07PM)
Jonathan,

I picture you carrying the magnet with three coins "stuck" to it wrapped in a piece of paper. Open the paper, remove the coins, put them in formation, then tear up the paper. Go from there. At the end stick the coins back to the magnet and wrap them back in the now restored paper.

Curtis - I like the routine you've laid out. Perhaps you reverse the magnet (I'm seeing a bar magnet) and that instantly pushes the coins back to the original corners.
Message: Posted by: mystre71 (May 25, 2004 03:24PM)
RE: Jon I wonder if this magnetic coin bit is the thing that Curtis does (but doesn't explain) at the beginning of his Palms os Steel vol.1?
Jason

Jon, Jason, This is indeed the thing that Curtis was doing on the PoS1, From Kainoa's book "Cointopia" he says "A number of years ago Curtis showed me a technique that he used to propel a coin from the fingertips of one hand to the other. Curtis would refer to this as the "Tiddlywinks Move" "Named after some archaic game the existed long before Gameboys or even Ataris"...lol

What Kainoa did was bring it up to a vertical level. The "tiddlywinks move" was horizontal as seen on the PoS1.

Hope this helps
Joe