(Close Window)
Topic: Suicide
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 10, 2019 10:37AM)
I don't believe it for a minute.
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Aug 10, 2019 10:43AM)
I understand why you would say that Landmark, but I can also see this man looking at his future and falling into despair.

I have heard that Suicide is the cowards way out.
I have heard that Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I have known personally two people who took their own life. One was looking at a life filled with nothing but intense physical pain and medicine was not helping. I think of that as more of a self-euthanasia.
The other was clinically depressed.

So what kind of future was he looking at? Incarcerated in bad conditions in a situation where other inmates don't respect him on any level. Daily hell.

So you might be right. It may have been a staged suicide, but it could have been real too.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 10, 2019 11:10AM)
The question is how he could have the means to hang himself whilst under suicide watch.

Seems unlikely.
Message: Posted by: Alan M (Aug 10, 2019 11:15AM)
I’d read he was on suicide watch since that incident in July when he was found with injuries in his cell.
If that’s true, then it certainly does make one wonder how this could have happened.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Aug 10, 2019 11:19AM)
Many big-shot associates breathing a sigh of relief. Wonder which one of them arranged it?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 10, 2019 11:47AM)
Suicide watch in prison often amounts to just that. (Watching a suicide.)

Hanging is a process. An involved process that takes quite a bit of time on both sides. The prep work is time consuming, but in a situation like prison you don't die by an instant snapping of the neck. It takes a while.

When under a watch it seems strange that one could accomplish all these things.

I am no conspiracy theory guy, that is certain. But this does allow for at least am investigation I should imagine.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 10, 2019 11:51AM)
The only suicide scenario I can imagine is if he managed to pay off people to look the other way while he planned and committed suicide. But I don't think that's the most likely scenario.

I was curious to read what folks here with a law enforcement background thought about the likelihood of suicide in such a situation. I know Danny has such a background. Anyone else with an LE background who has an opinion on this?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 10, 2019 01:13PM)
To be clear I did not say it was a murder, or bribery or anything of the sort.

I will say at the very least someone on the "watch" was asleep at the wheel. OR we do not know enough of the facts to make an accurate determination of how he did it mechanically. As I said an investigation is something that definitely SHOULD happen.
Message: Posted by: Alan M (Aug 10, 2019 04:30PM)
CNN is now reporting "He was put on suicide watch in July, but was taken off days later".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/10/us/jeffrey-epstein-death/index.html
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 10, 2019 04:41PM)
Naturally because of course things got so much better for him.
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Aug 10, 2019 04:47PM)
The victims are complaining because they wanted to try him.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 10, 2019 04:57PM)
A lot of people wanted him in the justice system.

Also a lot didn't.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Aug 11, 2019 07:57AM)
Fatal Autoerotic Asphyxiation?
....just a thought.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Aug 11, 2019 12:28PM)
"The following account is from a former inmate of the Metropolitan Correction Center in lower Manhattan, where Jeffrey Epstein was found unresponsive Saturday, and declared dead at a hospital of an apparent suicide. The ex-convict, who spoke to The Post’s Brad Hamilton and Bruce Golding on the condition of anonymity, spent several months in the 9 South special housing unit for high-profile prisoners awaiting trial — like Epstein."

https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mcc-inmate-theres-no-way-jeffrey-epstein-killed-himself/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 11, 2019 02:47PM)
Lots of wonderful speculation by an anonymous source of course.

With just what he described I can think of a few ways to kill oneself. Plus the guy is uninformed because wasn't he taken off suicide watch?

It is sad mere speculations pass as news worthy these days. I guess that is the time we live in though.

I wish all the armchair experts would let an investigation finish just once before offering ridiculous theories to try to be the smartest guy in the room. (Not you balducci, all you did was post a link. No harm there.)

But it is sad that eventually all this nonsense is going to become fact to some. The way some still believe nonsense from long ago. When the facts come out everyone will counter with urban legend. Again a sign of the times we live in I fear.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 11, 2019 03:09PM)
Let's presume this was not a negotiation process gone bad. So, what made this last week different from the others in this process? That's a backtracking question. What related matters seem to have been resolved?

For some reason RED and RED2 are on sy-fy this weekend repeated at least three times. If you truly must look into the dark places where such happens; look at the character connections. Also the implied moral boundaries. The scenes where meet Jet Li in 2 and the local guy in 1 come to mind.

It looks like much of the context has not been discussed on the news. I'd prefer not to consider or discuss the Warren Ellis comics RED or Transmetropolitan (see The Beast and his monologue interview). Those are just one possible context.

I am so not going to ask about the Lolita Express or the other obvious questions about his social network. This last week has been interesting elsewhere including HK, J&K, and Fed interest rates.

*As usual on serious topics, a comic distractor conclusion: # MeeToo meets # RichLivesMatter?
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 11, 2019 06:59PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
. . . [i]Jet Li[/i] in 2 . . . .[/quote]
Perhaps you mean [b][i]Byung-Hun Lee[/i][/b]?

Jet Li wasn't in either movie.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 11, 2019 10:10PM)
[quote]On Aug 11, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Aug 11, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
. . . [i]Jet Li[/i] in 2 . . . .[/quote]
Perhaps you mean [b][i]Byung-Hun Lee[/i][/b]?

Jet Li wasn't in either movie. [/quote]
You are correct. Fine distraction too. :hmmm: The word "Me" in the hashtag was also misspelled. :readingbook:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 13, 2019 12:41AM)
First of all IF it was organized. Why can't we work with facts?

Second of all if it was indeed organized who else but those implicated with a lot to lose would bother? Not really a shocking out on a limb position to take.

Lastly the list of those implicated would be quite long and be more red and blue than most of us would want to believe.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Aug 13, 2019 12:39PM)
The problematic circumstances of this apparent suicide makes one wonder how many bad apples are still lurking in the FBI, DOJ, law enforcement, etc.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 13, 2019 02:03PM)
What problematic circumstances exactly?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 13, 2019 04:24PM)
This is classic Murder on The Orient Express. More motives than suspects.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 13, 2019 04:32PM)
[quote] the list of those implicated would be quite long and be more red and blue than most of us would want to believe.[/quote]

My thoughts, too. As Mr. G. Carlin said, "[i]It's a big club, and you ain't in it.[/i]"
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Aug 13, 2019 05:24PM)
Having experienced extreme highs and lows in life, i.e. enjoying and abusing the VIP lifestyle, as well as being destitute and surviving in the dark underbelly of society, I can tell you with certainty that unspeakable things happen at both ends of the spectrum. Epstein’s habits and the services he provided are not as rare as one might imagine. It’s just a tragedy that he died before ratting on his many accomplices. Hopefully an honest investigation will reveal some of those culprits. But unfortunately when extreme wealth is involved, many facts tend to become blurred and obscured …
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 13, 2019 05:49PM)
Red and blue are okay guesses in the same way as cyan or magenta :idea: [i]Pecunia non olet[/i] :hrmph:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 13, 2019 06:11PM)
Well. That was ... informative:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecunia_non_olet

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 13, 2019 08:56PM)
* sarcasm alert *
It's cute when a magician pulls a little silk from a dollar bill. But that's so impersonal.
How about borrowing a bill and seeing if it smells like how it was earned?
* okay end sarcasm - back the mystery of 'how the heck did that happen' *

At least in the Agatha Christie story the detective solved the crime.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Aug 13, 2019 09:00PM)
[quote]On Aug 13, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:

At least in the Agatha Christie story the detective solved the crime. [/quote]

But the guilty party wasn’t always apprehended … in one of the Hercule Poirot stories he had to take matters in his own hands in order to mete out justice.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 14, 2019 08:05PM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't believe it for a minute. [/quote]
Happens all the time.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 14, 2019 08:22PM)
Not in the MCC. This is the place were El Chapo and members of the Gambino crime family were held. This is not a Barney Fife Mayberry jail.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 14, 2019 10:12PM)
In many ways you'd be shocked at the similarities.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 15, 2019 12:38AM)
Well yes, I'll certainly grant you that incompetence and corner cutting is pretty endemic in most institutions. But the inmates aren't exactly going out fishing every day to catch Aunt Bee's dinner.

So I was curious about what the suicide rate was for the NY MCC, and I've discovered it's surprisingly difficult to find a confirmable number. I saw one comment on a forum which said there had only been one other suicide ever there--but until I see some other confirmation of that, I'm not going to accept it.

However the numbers that do look legit seem to indicate that the annual suicide rate for federal lock-ups over the past decade or so has been around 10-20 per 100,000 inmates (It's 3x higher in local jails). The NY MCC has less than 1000 inmates at any one time, but since lots of people come in and out, let's say 10,000 pass through a year. So based on the overall federal rate we might expect maybe one to two suicides a year. And let's be frank--there's probably a healthy percentage of jail deaths listed as "suicides" that are not suicides.

So, I'm going to stick with what I started with--an actual suicide at the NY MCC is a fairly rare event.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 12:56AM)
Fairly rare? Sure. I'll by that. And?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 15, 2019 09:58AM)
That was in response to "Happens all the time."
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 15, 2019 10:01AM)
Certainly it does not "happen all the time".

It is amazing what watching the partisan news (From either side.) can convince people of.

Guys my suggestion is to stop watching the news of any sort. You will be happier.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 15, 2019 11:35AM)
I was listening to a Penn podcast the other day, and he talked about having gone on a "news diet" for a few weeks. If the results are as spectacular as Penn's food diet was for him, he may have something there.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 15, 2019 11:53AM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, landmark wrote:
I was listening to a Penn podcast the other day, and he talked about having gone on a "news diet" for a few weeks. If the results are as spectacular as Penn's food diet was for him, he may have something there. [/quote]

I hear he's already 10% more ignorant.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 15, 2019 11:56AM)
Unless he was listening to news you disagree with then he is more intelligent for stopping.

(Not you specifically, you generally.)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 12:27PM)
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epstein-death-draws-attention-how-little-known-about-prison-suicides-n1041531
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 12:28PM)
Https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/12/17/the_direct_route_from_child_sex_charges_to_suicide.html
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 12:32PM)
"3906 prison suicides occurred during 2011–14 in the 24 high-income countries..."

Okay, so not all the time.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 12:34PM)
Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6066090/
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 15, 2019 12:34PM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't believe it for a minute. [/quote]
From [url=https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/15/us/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy-broken-neck/index.html]CNN a few minutes ago[/url]: [quote]People familiar with the autopsy report told the newspaper the bones broken in Epstein's neck included the hyoid bone, which is near the Adam's apple.
This sort of break can happen when a person hangs themselves or dies by strangulation, forensics experts told the Post.
Epstein, 66, was found dead in the special housing unit of the federal Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York on Saturday. He was in a cell by himself.
The multimillionaire hedge fund manager had been jailed since early last month, awaiting trial on federal charges accusing him of operating a sex trafficking ring from 2002 to 2005 at his Manhattan mansion and his Palm Beach estate in which he paid girls as young as 14 for sex. He pleaded not guilty to the charges.
Two prison staff members who'd been guarding the unit where Epstein died by apparent suicide failed to check on him that night for about three hours, The New York Times reported Tuesday, citing several law enforcement and prison officials with knowledge of the investigation.
Officials have cautioned to CNN that they don't know what the staff members were doing during that time and are still trying to pin that down.[/quote]
Misreading between the lines one could imagine both of them were involved in the process. :eek:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 15, 2019 02:33PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epstein-death-draws-attention-how-little-known-about-prison-suicides-n1041531 [/quote]

Yes, that was the article where I got the 10-20 per 100,000 inmates in federal lock-up figure. See the graph.

[quote]https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/12/17/the_direct_route_from_child_sex_charges_to_suicide.html[/quote]

I may have missed it but that article says nothing about suicides while incarcerated. It seems to imply that those accused of child sex crimes have a higher rate of suicide, but the case it highlights was of a man who committed suicide while not in prison. I don't know that that is relevant to this discussion. Maybe motive. But I think we're talking about means here.

[quote]Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6066090/[/quote]

"North American countries had rates ranging from 23 to 67 suicides per 100 000 prisoners." says that study, which basically correlates with the figure for *all* (not just federal) US lock-ups cited in the first source.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 15, 2019 02:45PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, landmark wrote:
I was listening to a Penn podcast the other day, and he talked about having gone on a "news diet" for a few weeks. If the results are as spectacular as Penn's food diet was for him, he may have something there. [/quote]

I hear he's already 10% more ignorant. [/quote]

Touché!
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 03:51PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epstein-death-draws-attention-how-little-known-about-prison-suicides-n1041531 [/quote]

Yes, that was the article where I got the 10-20 per 100,000 inmates in federal lock-up figure. See the graph.

[quote]https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/12/17/the_direct_route_from_child_sex_charges_to_suicide.html[/quote]

I may have missed it but that article says nothing about suicides while incarcerated. It seems to imply that those accused of child sex crimes have a higher rate of suicide, but the case it highlights was of a man who committed suicide while not in prison. I don't know that that is relevant to this discussion. Maybe motive. But I think we're talking about means here.

[quote]Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6066090/[/quote]

"North American countries had rates ranging from 23 to 67 suicides per 100 000 prisoners." says that study, which basically correlates with the figure for *all* (not just federal) US lock-ups cited in the first source. [/quote]
No, you didn't miss it. Point is, it happens a lot more often than people realize.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 15, 2019 04:10PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
No, you didn't miss it. Point is, it happens a lot more often than people realize. [/quote]

Because prison sucks.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 15, 2019 04:29PM)
It is also not in general those who are mentally well adjusted who go to prison in the first place.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 15, 2019 07:07PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
No, you didn't miss it. Point is, it happens a lot more often than people realize. [/quote]

Because prison sucks. [/quote]
Exactly. Especially for someone like Epstein was alleged to have been.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 15, 2019 11:03PM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
...Guys my suggestion is to stop watching the news of any sort. You will be happier. [/quote]


I haven't watched the news in years and had to do a wiki-search to find out what you are all talking about.

... and yes I am happy.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 15, 2019 11:10PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
...Guys my suggestion is to stop watching the news of any sort. You will be happier. [/quote]


I haven't watched the news in years and had to do a wiki-search to find out what you are all talking about.

... and yes I am happy. [/quote]
As you should be. Comrade.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Aug 16, 2019 11:09AM)
Hmph.
As hard as it is to swallow,
Mr. Epstein died an innocent man.

He hasn't even been found guilty of 'suicide', yet.
(A crime in the State of N.Y.)

If 'Justice' is what everyone is seeking,
for 'the victims';
the innocent children.....
maybe their parents should be brought into the picture(?).

Where were they,
while their children were out being 'abused'?

Not to mention, what became of the large sums of money,
allegedy paid.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ö . . ö ö

As far as any 'Investigation':
isn't it just going to end with,
the way the discussion started:
"I don't believe it!" ?

.....unless of course,
we hear what we want to hear.

p.s: The 'news' gets better at 'reporting' Storys,
...but the Storys don't change much,
do they.....
Kind of like the weather.
Man,,..and how they struggle with that!

Sorry, no 'links' to confirm my thoughts,...
they are just that,..
my thoughts.

Still capable,
Gallagher
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 16, 2019 11:49AM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, landmark wrote:
I was listening to a Penn podcast the other day, and he talked about having gone on a "news diet" for a few weeks. If the results are as spectacular as Penn's food diet was for him, he may have something there. [/quote]

I hear he's already 10% more ignorant. [/quote]

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers". I am pretty certain that was Thomas Jefferson.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 16, 2019 11:56AM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 15, 2019, landmark wrote:
I was listening to a Penn podcast the other day, and he talked about having gone on a "news diet" for a few weeks. If the results are as spectacular as Penn's food diet was for him, he may have something there.[/quote]

I hear he's already 10% more ignorant.[/quote]

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers". I am pretty certain that was Thomas Jefferson.[/quote]
Or, perhaps, George Jefferson.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 16, 2019 12:01PM)
Well Thomas was indeed "moving on up."
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 16, 2019 12:15PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well Thomas was indeed "moving on up." [/quote]

Having an undereducated misinformed public is practically essential for political success.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 16, 2019 12:43PM)
Or a brainwashed one.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Aug 16, 2019 01:21PM)
... or both!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 16, 2019 02:46PM)
Ignorance is measured in trendy worry stories and sports scores?
Message: Posted by: Orville Smith (Aug 16, 2019 07:43PM)
Just heard on the current news that the coroner concluded that Epstein's demise was a suicide. But many skeptics won't be satisfied, will they?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 16, 2019 08:13PM)
Conspiracy theorists rarely use logic, facts,etc.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 16, 2019 08:26PM)
What logic and facts is that theory based on?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 16, 2019 08:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Conspiracy theorists rarely use logic, facts,etc. [/quote]
Neither do religions, politicians, entertainers or humans in general. It's all feels.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 16, 2019 08:44PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Orville Smith wrote:
Just heard on the current news that the coroner concluded that Epstein's demise was a suicide. But many skeptics won't be satisfied, will they? [/quote]
Perhaps the guards simply left a despondent man alone with a rope for 3 hours.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 16, 2019 09:02PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Or a brainwashed one. [/quote]


One man's truth is another man's kool-ade...
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 16, 2019 09:26PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Conspiracy theorists rarely use logic, facts,etc. [/quote]
Neither do religions, politicians, entertainers or humans in general. It's all feels. [/quote] I disagree. I find that humans in general tend to use logic and facts. It may not seem like it if you spend too much time with the media, but it is generally true.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 16, 2019 09:34PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, tommy wrote:
What logic and facts is that theory based on? [/quote]
The fact that when you tell a conspiracy theorist a fact and present logic, they'll regect it.
You show photos from space (fact) to a flat earther, they will regect it. You show a ship disappearing on the horizon and appearing at the dock behind them (logic) they will regect it.

Ask a bigfoot believer where the dead ones are (logic) they'll give you a funky answer.

Take a guy out of a mansion and a private jet and put him in a concrete box for 100 years, he just may try to off himself. (Logic)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 16, 2019 09:47PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...I find that humans in general tend to use logic and facts. [/quote]
Facts about immediate context, experience, and some steps of reasoning -okay. Not sure that's Aristotelian logic or bringing in notions consistent with what's known about the world at large. Most of the time I get the sense that "Of course I don't believe in ghosts but I do this stuff because it's a group thing - and I don't want to offend the ghosts. My friend told me one of his relatives ..." it's more like a running narrative of self-justification. ;)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 16, 2019 09:53PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Orville Smith wrote:
Just heard on the current news that the coroner concluded that Epstein's demise was a suicide. But many skeptics won't be satisfied, will they? [/quote]
Perhaps the guards simply left a despondent man alone with a rope for 3 hours. [/quote]
There was a rope? Was that a special richguy cell with deluxe accommodations? And people in these cells get special discretion time in case they need ...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 16, 2019 09:57PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Take a guy out of a mansion and a private jet and put him in a concrete box for 100 years, ... (Logic) [/quote]Depending on what you want to happen it might be quicker to tell him he's getting a roommate in a few days and the general population in the prison wants to hear all about his little friends.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 16, 2019 10:05PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Orville Smith wrote:
Just heard on the current news that the coroner concluded that Epstein's demise was a suicide. But many skeptics won't be satisfied, will they? [/quote]I read [url=http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/gwinnett-county-me-investigator-resigns-after-misinterpreted-autopsy]somewhere[/url] that a medical examiner faced with a corpse showing many stab wounds concluded death was due to natural causes. What I wanna know is how many deaths are due to unnatural causes compared to supernatural causes.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 16, 2019 10:23PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Take a guy out of a mansion and a private jet and put him in a concrete box for 100 years, ... (Logic) [/quote]Depending on what you want to happen it might be quicker to tell him he's getting a roommate in a few days and the general population in the prison wants to hear all about his little friends. [/quote]
I'm sure he thought of that too.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 16, 2019 11:06PM)
You are only addressing Epstein's motive, not means. We still have no idea what actually happened.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 16, 2019 11:51PM)
Well, not quite.
We know that he committed suicide by hanging.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 17, 2019 12:55AM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Well, not quite.
We know that he committed suicide by hanging. [/quote]Not sure what you mean by "know". Was one of you there? And is that one (or more) of you reporting accurately?

Gotta eliminate some more impossible before looking at what's left. ;) Maybe he fell off the flat earth? Maybe he was fictitious? Maybe someone on 4chan has a working time machine? Maybe it feels better to play armchair detective with a locked room mystery than to consider the matter being investigated?

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-death-suicide-questions-answers-871288/
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-review-jeffrey-epstein-4chan-post
https://gizmodo.com/someone-posted-details-about-jeffrey-epstein-s-death-on-1837208842
Reliable sources say 4chan exists. Welcome to fantasy island. You may deplane. Or you might want to stop here and imagine it's just cute pictures of cats and captions.

[quote] [url=http://boards.4channel.org/news/3#]Veritatem 08/16/19(Fri)18:22:41 No.447686[/url]▶

I've spoken to someone who worked with Barbara Sampson. His Email response:
------------
>Despite the conclusion of Barbara Sampson, Chief Medical Examiner of NYC, I am of the opinion that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered and that certain details were omitted from the full autopsy report that I personally felt was of significance to this case.

Barbara Sampson is known to be extremely conservative with her reporting and tends to focus on the macro causes of certain injuries. Anyone who has worked with Barbara will attest to this claim.

A summarization of facts pertaining to the examination of Jeffrey Edward Epstein:

With the broken hyoid bone, as well as factoring other sustained neck injuries (If the hyoid bone is fractured, there is a high likelihood that the larynx, pharynx, mandible, cervical spine etc. may be injured as well), Jeffrey Epstein's main cause of death is from Cerebral Hypoxemia, which tends to prolong death lasting between 5 - 10 minutes (depending on the pressure of constriction). The anatomic neck structure doesn't conclude nor correspond with injury sustained from hanging, and neither does the injury fit the recumbency position as was described in the initial reports. Instead, the injuries appeared more deliberate and acute to the point of death. This is something I have witnessed with neck injuries caused by confirmed strangulation.[/quote]
Archives here -> http://boards.4chan.org/pol//thread/223329705/egg-epstein-ghislaine-general-mossad-and-cia
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 17, 2019 01:16AM)
I think aliens; using stealth technology(we recovered part of it in Roswell) opened a portal to his cell, and had Big Foot choke him out as they staged the 'suicide'. Same aliens modified the documents and blanked out the guards memory to reflect that he was taken off of suicide watch. All this under the explicit permission of the Illuminati; who secretly run everything, but isn't who you really think they are.

I know all this, though I wasn't there, a root canal I had while back in the Air Force contained a mild radioactive isotope; which the silver filling and my genetic saliva PH makes me prone to receiving beta particle transmissions. It just came to as a recovered memory due to Jonathan's post; which just so happens to contain the cryptic key "[quote]Not sure what you mean by "know". Was one of you there? And is that one (or more) of you reporting accurately? [/quote]
A bit too convient for me; which makes me believe that Jonathan is actually an alien who's role is to confirm the cover story.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 17, 2019 01:35AM)
Do the people who believe the Earth is flat also believe that two or more people maliciously planned and agreed together to commit the criminal or reprehensible act of flattening it?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 17, 2019 07:01AM)
[quote]On Aug 17, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Well, not quite.
We know that he committed suicide by hanging. [/quote]Not sure what you mean by "know". Was one of you there? And is that one (or more) of you reporting accurately?

Gotta eliminate some more impossible before looking at what's left. ;) Maybe he fell off the flat earth? Maybe he was fictitious? Maybe someone on 4chan has a working time machine? Maybe it feels better to play armchair detective with a locked room mystery than to consider the matter being investigated?

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/jeffrey-epstein-death-suicide-questions-answers-871288/
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-review-jeffrey-epstein-4chan-post
https://gizmodo.com/someone-posted-details-about-jeffrey-epstein-s-death-on-1837208842
Reliable sources say 4chan exists. Welcome to fantasy island. You may deplane. Or you might want to stop here and imagine it's just cute pictures of cats and captions.

[quote] [url=http://boards.4channel.org/news/3#]Veritatem 08/16/19(Fri)18:22:41 No.447686[/url]▶

I've spoken to someone who worked with Barbara Sampson. His Email response:
------------
>Despite the conclusion of Barbara Sampson, Chief Medical Examiner of NYC, I am of the opinion that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered and that certain details were omitted from the full autopsy report that I personally felt was of significance to this case.

Barbara Sampson is known to be extremely conservative with her reporting and tends to focus on the macro causes of certain injuries. Anyone who has worked with Barbara will attest to this claim.

A summarization of facts pertaining to the examination of Jeffrey Edward Epstein:

With the broken hyoid bone, as well as factoring other sustained neck injuries (If the hyoid bone is fractured, there is a high likelihood that the larynx, pharynx, mandible, cervical spine etc. may be injured as well), Jeffrey Epstein's main cause of death is from Cerebral Hypoxemia, which tends to prolong death lasting between 5 - 10 minutes (depending on the pressure of constriction). The anatomic neck structure doesn't conclude nor correspond with injury sustained from hanging, and neither does the injury fit the recumbency position as was described in the initial reports. Instead, the injuries appeared more deliberate and acute to the point of death. This is something I have witnessed with neck injuries caused by confirmed strangulation.[/quote]
Archives here -> http://boards.4chan.org/pol//thread/223329705/egg-epstein-ghislaine-general-mossad-and-cia [/quote]
Really? You don't know what 'know' means?
Wow. Were you there when The titanic struck an iceberg? When the Hindenberg set fire?
When William won at Hastings? When DeMolay was burned at the Stake? When the Death Camps were liberated? When Washington laid the cornerstone at the Capitol?
Come now.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 17, 2019 07:09AM)
[b][i]Aliens![/i][/b]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 17, 2019 10:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 17, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
I think aliens; using stealth technology(we recovered part of it in Roswell) opened a portal to his cell, and had Big Foot choke him out as they staged the 'suicide'. Same aliens modified the documents and blanked out the guards memory to reflect that he was taken off of suicide watch. All this under the explicit permission of the Illuminati; who secretly run everything, but isn't who you really think they are.

I know all this, though I wasn't there, a root canal I had while back in the Air Force contained a mild radioactive isotope; which the silver filling and my genetic saliva PH makes me prone to receiving beta particle transmissions. It just came to as a recovered memory due to Jonathan's post; which just so happens to contain the cryptic key "[quote]Not sure what you mean by "know". Was one of you there? And is that one (or more) of you reporting accurately? [/quote]
A bit too convient for me; which makes me believe that Jonathan is actually an alien who's role is to confirm the cover story. [/quote]

This gets my vote.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 17, 2019 01:14PM)
[quote]On Aug 17, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
. . . Jonathan is actually an alien [i]who's[/i] role is to confirm the cover story.[/quote]
In that other thread I mentioned that apostrophes in plurals are particularly irksome.

Apostrophes in possessive pronouns are equally so.

Try [b][i]whose[/i][/b].

;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 17, 2019 02:08PM)
[quote]On Aug 16, 2019, landmark wrote:
You are only addressing Epstein's motive, not means. We still have no idea what actually happened. [/quote]

Right we don't, and shouldn't until am investation is finished. (My auto correct tried to write infestation. That might be closer actually.)

But no that is not going to happen because every armchair CSI expert who had seen an episode of Law & Order or Criminal Minds wants to pretend they have some sort of insight that is remarkable.

Let it play out. I know I ALWAYS ask that and nobody ever does because everyone had been deemed an expert by Googleing their favorite partisan web site and parroting the results.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 17, 2019 04:45PM)
[quote]On Aug 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Really? You don't know what 'know' means?
Wow. Were you there when The titanic struck an iceberg? When the Hindenberg set fire?
When William won at Hastings? When DeMolay was burned at the Stake? When the Death Camps were liberated? When Washington laid the cornerstone at the Capitol?
Come now. [/quote]What do I believe about knowing?...such questions from school :). I know I remember reading a comic where a guy wearing a blue cape jumped over a tall building. :) You know that's a joke and the cape was red. Hopefully everyone here understands that some printed sources are not so complete or reliable as to constitute more than semi-reliable evidence in context. Trivial Pursuit type knowledge?
I saw an old film showing the Zeppelin Hindenburg catch fire over its landing area. Also saw a movie with Michael York offering a backstory to the event. And heard a news story where the Zeppelin family thought it was a nice thing that an English band wanted to use their name. Tiny droughts from the Pierian spring. Sprinkled liberally and used to lubricate heated conversation thanks to the Leidenfrost effect. A gloss. That's not knowledge of the sort one uses respectfully when talking about another person's life or death.

Oh, you set the Hindenburg afire. I guess the statue of limitations for that is over. Impressive act. You remember William of Hasings too?

I like that you wrote "Death Camps" rather than "Concentration Camps". Those terms have recently come back to haunt us.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 17, 2019 04:59PM)
I can’t wait. It should as good as the Warren Report.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 17, 2019 09:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 17, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Aug 17, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
. . . Jonathan is actually an alien [i]who's[/i] role is to confirm the cover story.[/quote]
In that other thread I mentioned that apostrophes in plurals are particularly irksome.

Apostrophes in possessive pronouns are equally so.

Try [b][i]whose[/i][/b].

;) [/quote]

I blame the beta particles...
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Aug 18, 2019 05:04AM)
Sunday, the day of 'what if',...'maybe'...

What if: after sitting in Jail, alone;
..time to reflect,
...no drugs, distractions, internet, or 'lastest breaking news';
Mr. Epstein sees the Life he's led...
Hedge-fonder, Island-izer, 'everything-is-kauflich mentality'....
the guilty feeling is too much.

In order to save society the monetary costs,
..to save the victims further pain,
...to spare his friends the embarrassment...
he becomes 'the man' he always wanted to be.
,....
does what is 'right'.

no aliens, beta particles, or Russians.
He's killed by,..'the Nice Guy in all of us'. 😊

His testament was changed,
the day before(!),
...all the money is going to the Sisters of Mercy.

Gallagher

p.s.: How about the poor guys who lost their jobs(!)
over this!..?
Life ain't easy.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 18, 2019 05:21AM)
Not sure I can manage much sympathy for anyone who lost his job over this; like they say...You had one job, one job, and you blew it.

But again, we don't really know what happened. The hard part is we may never know. This looked like one of the rare tantalizing times when the wall cracked a bit and the men behind the oak panels would be revealed. It's like one of those unsatisfying stories where it all turns out to be a dream.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 18, 2019 10:11AM)
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, landmark wrote:
Not sure I can manage much sympathy for anyone who lost his job over this; like they say...You had one job, one job, and you blew it.

But again, we don't really know what happened. The hard part is we may never know. This looked like one of the rare tantalizing times when the wall cracked a bit and the men behind the oak panels would be revealed. It's like one of those unsatisfying stories where it all turns out to be a dream. [/quote]
Well, not quite. We know that he committed suicide by hanging.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 18, 2019 11:47AM)
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Well, not quite. We know that he committed suicide by hanging. [/quote]

Well, not quite. We know he died from what a coroner defined as strangulation. Everything else is speculation.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 18, 2019 05:13PM)
We all know the coroner was originally the title of the officer with the duty of protecting the private property of the royal family, from Latin corona, literally "crown". And it may come as little surprise that the Grand Old Duke of York has been spotted in the “House of Horrors”.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 18, 2019 06:29PM)
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, gallagher wrote:
Sunday, the day of 'what if',...[/quote]And in his deluxe fully equipped accommodations complete with how-to posters and in the agreed upon privacy time when the guards were going to be away for hours ... :(
So, it's been a few days...has the body vanished?
Has the rest of the matter which was being investigated gone too?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 18, 2019 07:28PM)
It seems really sad that a man, who made a fortune from a wonderful understanding of trust, could not be trusted with my cat.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Aug 19, 2019 04:02AM)
"This looked like one of the rare tantalizing times when the wall cracked a bit and the men behind the oak panels would be revealed.
It's like one of those unsatisfying stories where it all turns out to be a dream."
(Landmark)

Landmark, I really didn't know ANYTHING of Mr. Epstein,..
sorry Jeff.
But today, as Prince Edward screamed and yelled and agrued 'for respect'..
and wondered a bit more.

I know many joke about Wikipedia,...but I took a looksy, anyway.

wOw!
Mr. Epstein raised some sand in his short 65 years!
From a middle class Brooklyn neighborhood,..
thru the White House,
..to his little own 'country',..
right next to 'David Copperfield-land'.

Amazing(!). Amazing.
Some folks seem to have MORE hours in the day, than I!
There's a good bit of 'Wolf of Wall Street', in his biography,... X 3(!).

I think, a 'film' of his life,..
or,
a peek behind 'the oak panels',...
would seem so 'un-believible'..
at least to a guy like me.
(I thought 'The Wolf of Wall Street' was purely,...a good comedy.....)

wOw. What there are for storys,
outside the deck of cards.......

Have a nice day,
Gallagher
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 19, 2019 04:06AM)
Whatever the case may be, they will bury the evidence.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 19, 2019 09:16AM)
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Well, not quite. We know that he committed suicide by hanging. [/quote]

Well, not quite. We know he died from what a coroner defined as strangulation. Everything else is speculation. [/quote]
Incorrect. There is no evidence of strangulation. The cause of death is as I stated earlier- suicide by hanging.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 19, 2019 11:46AM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Well, not quite. We know that he committed suicide by hanging. [/quote]

Well, not quite. We know he died from what a coroner defined as strangulation. Everything else is speculation. [/quote]
Incorrect. There is no evidence of strangulation. The cause of death is as I stated earlier- suicide by hanging. [/quote]
Murder and suicide are not causes of death. You should watch some Quincy reruns.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 19, 2019 12:53PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Slim King wrote:
Try the search in youtube .. Basically nothing new about the guards in several days … Why is their algorithm suppressing this so severely? Sometimes it's what they won't let you see.... [/quote]It's almost always where the yelling starts - ignore that man behind the curtain...

Unless you've got personal direct knowledge this matter it's kinda silly to make statements of "fact".
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 19, 2019 01:39PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Well, not quite. We know that he committed suicide by hanging. [/quote]

Well, not quite. We know he died from what a coroner defined as strangulation. Everything else is speculation. [/quote]
Incorrect. There is no evidence of strangulation. The cause of death is as I stated earlier- suicide by hanging. [/quote]
Murder and suicide are not causes of death. You should watch some Quincy reruns. [/quote]
You must've missed the hanging part.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 19, 2019 02:03PM)
Just clarifying the difference between hanging and suicide. Hanging isn't what kills ya; it's the strangulation.

Despite the droves of oligarchs who apparently had motive to silence Epstein, I don't believe in conspiracy.

The Bureau of Prisons was just removed by upstanding citizen AG Barr.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 19, 2019 02:10PM)
Actually, hanging usually breaks the neck. Breaking the second cervical vertebra actually but it depends on the drop etcetera.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2019 02:33PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
Actually, hanging usually breaks the neck. Breaking the second cervical vertebra actually but it depends on the drop etcetera. [/quote]

Yea no.

A skilled hangman with a noose and counter weights can certainly accomplish such a thing with enough room for the drop.

When people hang themselves it is not so common.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 19, 2019 02:49PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Just clarifying the difference between hanging and suicide. Hanging isn't what kills ya; it's the strangulation.

Despite the droves of oligarchs who apparently had motive to silence Epstein, I don't believe in conspiracy.

The Bureau of Prisons was just removed by upstanding citizen AG Barr. [/quote]
Incorrect. The cause of death is suicide by hanging.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 19, 2019 05:24PM)
If the camera's were off and the guards were sleeping how would they know it was suicide .. And all that screaming?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 19, 2019 05:55PM)
Slim - he says he [b]knows[/b] so he knows. It's the plural reference that got my attention.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 19, 2019 06:51PM)
What is the difference between suicide and murder?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 19, 2019 07:20PM)
All kinds of questions to be answered, not just about the death, but about who Epstein was, how he made his money, and what his business was.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 19, 2019 07:43PM)
Whoever he was he is now the King of Hearts.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2019 07:54PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, landmark wrote:
All kinds of questions to be answered, not just about the death, but about who Epstein was, how he made his money, and what his business was. [/quote]

I should imagine an investigation as opposed to speculation might be a way to go about that. I wonder why exactly it is we never seem to try that?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 19, 2019 08:47PM)
It's natural for people to wonder; it's also natural for people to suspect, given the high rolling players, that the question might be: an investigation by whom?
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 19, 2019 08:53PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, landmark wrote:
All kinds of questions to be answered, not just about the death, but about who Epstein was, how he made his money, and what his business was. [/quote]

I should imagine an investigation as opposed to speculation might be a way to go about that. I wonder why exactly it is we never seem to try that? [/quote]


Well, since none of US can actually CONDUCT an investigation, baseless speculation is going to be all we have.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 19, 2019 09:08PM)
... my alien explanation is sounding better and better non?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 19, 2019 09:17PM)
You're thinking it was a K-Pax thing where he vanished from the cell and the rest was theater?
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 19, 2019 09:21PM)
You're deflecting again... further proof that you are part of the alien conspiracy!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 19, 2019 09:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, landmark wrote:
All kinds of questions to be answered, not just about the death, but about who Epstein was, how he made his money, and what his business was. [/quote]

I should imagine an investigation as opposed to speculation might be a way to go about that. I wonder why exactly it is we never seem to try that? [/quote]


Well, since none of US can actually CONDUCT an investigation, baseless speculation is going to be all we have. [/quote]

The problem is when people begin to believe their own bs.

Heck the number of folks who still quote he was on suicide watch.

Why people want to go around and pretend they know instead of waiting to find out is beyond me. People fill up a lack of knowledge with nonsense and are happy to believe it because it fits a narrative. THEN they believe they are the smartest guy in the room because they are in the know.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 19, 2019 09:46PM)
[i]Conjecture Lecture, what's your architecture?
Making up plots and theories and causes.
Conjecture Lecture, what's your architecture?
I got three conspiracy thoughts
That support most of my ideas.
Conjecture Lecture, what's your architecture?
I got "they", "those", and "them",
They'll get me pretty far...[/i]
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 19, 2019 10:09PM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't believe it for a minute. [/quote]Neither did the guards who weren't guarding. But after two weeks of playing Mycroft* maybe it's time to get back to the problems, accusers, and complicity of those who flew the Lolita Express?

I'm not making light of negligence and death.

*Sherlock's brother (who was not also the villain Moriarty)
[quote]...He has the tidiest and most orderly brain, with the greatest capacity for storing facts, of any man living. The same great powers which I have turned to the detection of crime he has used for this particular business. The conclusions of every department are passed to him, and he is the central exchange, the clearinghouse, which makes out the balance. All other men are specialists, but his specialism is omniscience.[/quote] https://bakerstreet.fandom.com/wiki/Mycroft_Holmes
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 20, 2019 12:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Slim - he says he [b]knows[/b] so he knows. It's the plural reference that got my attention. [/quote]
I know because the PhD published his conclusion.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 20, 2019 12:28AM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
What is the difference between suicide and murder? [/quote]
"Sui" is Latin for self. Cide is latin for kill or death.
Homicide means "homo" or man has been killed.
Murder means it was intentional.
Huge differences .
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Aug 20, 2019 08:30AM)
So if he hung himself from the bed post, how does he have numerous broken bones in the neck when there was no drop for the body to take?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 20, 2019 10:01AM)
[quote]On Aug 20, 2019, lunatik wrote:
So if he hung himself from the bed post, how does he have numerous broken bones in the neck when there was no drop for the body to take? [/quote]

Where is the conclusion that he had numerous broken bones? Did he have a condition that would allow for that?

And aside from that I can think of a way.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 20, 2019 11:10AM)
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
You're thinking it was a K-Pax thing where he vanished from the cell and the rest was theater? [/quote]

In this version the predator doesn't escape.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 20, 2019 11:12AM)
[quote]On Aug 20, 2019, lunatik wrote:
So if he hung himself from the bed post, how does he have numerous broken bones in the neck when there was no drop for the body to take? [/quote]

Generally suicide by hanging is more of a slumping strangulation than classic noose and chair like the movies.
I suppose he could've jumped. Or maybe sasquatch held him up off the floor.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 20, 2019 11:58AM)
If he was murdered by the powers that be who are calling it a suicide, then do you really think the investigation by the powers that be might arrive at the conclusion that he was murdered by the powers that be?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 20, 2019 01:18PM)
In old jails, that little tent of blue that prisoners call the sky is high up in the wall and it has strong bars. The cells in these old jails normally have bunk beds. To commit suicide, prisoners will usually braid a sheet into a rope, tie it to the bars and around their neck while sitting on the top bunk and then throw themselves off. This grisly technique can break or fracture the neck bones. Is it an old jail?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 20, 2019 02:00PM)
It ain't Mayberry. Modern tech is to lean into a blackout. Not so grisly.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 20, 2019 08:38PM)
[quote]On Aug 20, 2019, tommy wrote:
In old jails, that little tent of blue that prisoners call the sky is high up in the wall and it has strong bars. The cells in these old jails normally have bunk beds. To commit suicide, prisoners will usually braid a sheet into a rope, tie it to the bars and around their neck while sitting on the top bunk and then throw themselves off. This grisly technique can break or fracture the neck bones. Is it an old jail? [/quote]


There was a movie (can't remember the title) where a lead character gets arrested and realizes her politician boyfriend will dump her if she inconveniences him. You see her lift up the upper bunk in the cell which is hinged and suspended from two chains. She lifts it, and watches the support chain go limp. After the third examination, we watch her loop the chain and put her head in it. Then she lets go of the upper bunk and the scene goes black! There's more ways to hang yourself then sheet and jumping. The leaning until blackout is also popular.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 21, 2019 03:08AM)
Https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/16/us/jeffrey-epstein-autopsy/index.html
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 21, 2019 07:22AM)
[quote]On Aug 20, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Slim - he says he [b]knows[/b] so he knows. It's the plural reference that got my attention. [/quote]
I know because the PhD published his conclusion. [/quote]
Ph is philosophy. Kant did it?
MD is medical doctor - still need to look at the body... which is gone. Two weeks of nonsense.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 21, 2019 08:50AM)
I know because the M.D. published his conclusion.

Kant? Funny I never took you for a snarky smart alec Jon.
You're better than that.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 21, 2019 09:01AM)
"Medicinae Universae doctor or doktor medicíny) is a professional doctorate granted upon completion of six years pregraduate Master's study at medical schools. The postgraduate academic research degree in medicine is a PhD degree."
- wikipedia

The scientist who examined the body published his conclusion. Not certain of his exact title. Sorry everyone. I'm a moron.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 21, 2019 09:40AM)
This started as critique of the story as presented. Whether or not the event is canon or coverup is debatable. Some parts of the story as presented seem implausible - but then again that presumes it's supposed to be factual reporting... not backstory for a 4chan post.

Does anyone here care to share any direct experience of Epstein or the peripheral players in the story as presented?

So, do you think Plato will be in the next Bill and Ted movie?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 21, 2019 10:13AM)
Obviously, not all people hang themselves the same way and how likely it is they will break their neck doing so depends on how they do it, etcetera. Epstein was essentially a cold calculating scientist who opted for the quick broken neck technique over the slow strangulation method of hanging himself. I know because it is elementary my dear Mr Townsend. ;)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 21, 2019 10:29AM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
This started as critique of the story as presented. Whether or not the event is canon or coverup is debatable. Some parts of the story as presented seem implausible - but then again that presumes it's supposed to be factual reporting... not backstory for a 4chan post.

Does anyone here care to share any direct experience of Epstein or the peripheral players in the story as presented?

So, do you think Plato will be in the next Bill and Ted movie? [/quote]
Nice deflection. Well played.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 21, 2019 10:58AM)
Snarky smart alec alert:

Let me Express my opinion on the Epstein case in simple direct language for you.

I believe Jean Jacques Rousseau owned the Island for the sole purpose of hosting wealthy criminals. When Epstein had to face the music, Rousseau invoked Pythagoras to saddle his unicorn, materialize in the cell and administer the cupcakes. A rainbow is less pleasant once around the neck.
Pallbearers a baker's dozen?
The coroner can skip double Dutch too.
Justice or snakes and ladders.
More caution tape please.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 21, 2019 11:22AM)
How do you know what to believe or not?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 21, 2019 11:39AM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Snarky smart alec alert:

Let me Express my opinion on the Epstein case in simple direct language for you.

I believe Jean Jacques Rousseau owned the Island for the sole purpose of hosting wealthy criminals. When Epstein had to face the music, Rousseau invoked Pythagoras to saddle his unicorn, materialize in the cell and administer the cupcakes. A rainbow is less pleasant once around the neck.
Pallbearers a baker's dozen?
The coroner can skip double Dutch too.
Justice or snakes and ladders.
More caution tape please. [/quote]

I'm glad you prefaced that with the alert. Otherwise I may have taken this seriously.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 21, 2019 12:08PM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, tommy wrote:
How do you know what to believe or not? [/quote]

Easy. You blindly follow the news-source that agrees with your preconceived opinions.
Then they help you align on the complicated stuff you haven't the time or inclination to research (Brexit, global-warming, gun laws etc.)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 21, 2019 12:34PM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, tommy wrote:
How do you know what to believe or not? [/quote]

Easy. You blindly follow the news-source that agrees with your preconceived opinions.
Then they help you align on the complicated stuff you haven't the time or inclination to research (Brexit, global-warming, gun laws etc.) [/quote]
Like the cause of death?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 21, 2019 01:32PM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, tommy wrote:
How do you know what to believe or not? [/quote]

Easy. You blindly follow the news-source that agrees with your preconceived opinions.
Then they help you align on the complicated stuff you haven't the time or inclination to research (Brexit, global-warming, gun laws etc.) [/quote]

This is indeed the method most use.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 21, 2019 03:19PM)
Following news stories feels too close to watching sports on TV. Is it infotainment, docudrama, reality TV - mostly seems unprofitable attention optimizer for ads.
[snark] *word play alert*
The cupcake, dated 8th of August, is online at scribid if you want to look. (Guessing the 9th was a travel day.)
The Island of Doctor Rousseau... :) there are some photos of that online too.
[/snark]

@reading/thinking: it's not so easy to backtrack a familiar quote to reliable source and check the context.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 21, 2019 08:32PM)
Https://www.scribd.com/document/422423833/Jeffrey-Epstein-will
really. The timing is/was... :(
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 12:14AM)
The victims and their families were left nothing. If they sue the estate they ought to get everything.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 06:31AM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, tommy wrote:
How do you know what to believe or not? [/quote]

Easy. You blindly follow the news-source that agrees with your preconceived opinions.
Then they help you align on the complicated stuff you haven't the time or inclination to research (Brexit, global-warming, gun laws etc.) [/quote]
Like the cause of death? [/quote]

I get your point, but I disagree.

If a person dies under external compulsion, with external assistance, it's not suicide. We just don't know enough yet.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 07:16AM)
Why you don't believe for a minute that he simply committed suicide is a mystery. You are now grasping at straws by suggesting he was coerced: did anybody see Dr Death in the vicinity?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 07:43AM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, tommy wrote:
The victims and their families were left nothing. If they sue the estate they ought to get everything. [/quote]Trust 1953
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 08:04AM)
Clearly, he was not of sound mind, therefore the 1953 Trust is null and void. “In God We Trust"
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 09:20AM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, tommy wrote:
How do you know what to believe or not? [/quote]

Easy. You blindly follow the news-source that agrees with your preconceived opinions.
Then they help you align on the complicated stuff you haven't the time or inclination to research (Brexit, global-warming, gun laws etc.) [/quote]
Like the cause of death? [/quote]

I get your point, but I disagree.

If a person dies under external compulsion, with external assistance, it's not suicide. We just don't know enough yet. [/quote]
Of course it's not. That's why the M.D. did not rule it a homicide. He ruled it a suicide.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 09:48AM)
The MD is an MD, not a detective or journalist. He is not necessarily aware of the surrounding circumstances.

If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?

I don't think anyone knows enough yet.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 09:51AM)
It can be: Euthanasia in Canada in its legal voluntary form is called medical assistance in dying and became legal along with assisted suicide as of June 2016.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 10:28AM)
"If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?"

Yes.

"The MD is an MD, not a detective or journalist. He is not necessarily aware of the surrounding circumstances."

Precisely. Neither a journalist nor a detective is qualified to determine a cause of death.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 11:39AM)
Https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/handbooks-and-guides.htm ->
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf
See item 32 (starts on page 40)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 22, 2019 11:49AM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 21, 2019, tommy wrote:
How do you know what to believe or not? [/quote]

Easy. You blindly follow the news-source that agrees with your preconceived opinions.
Then they help you align on the complicated stuff you haven't the time or inclination to research (Brexit, global-warming, gun laws etc.) [/quote]
Like the cause of death? [/quote]

We just don't know enough yet. [/quote]

Yea but why let that so random speculation posing as fact?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 22, 2019 11:54AM)
Oh PLEASE do not lump detective and journalist into the same category. And do not elevate the level of knowledge a journalist has over an MD. How nutty.

Do you even know what goes into a cause of death determination?

Stop acting like journalists are educated in some way greater than the world.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 01:05PM)
It depends: quite a lot goes into cover-ups. Especially when they suicide journalists who are about to expose them.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 22, 2019 01:47PM)
The case is only interesting because we assume powerful and wealthy people had motivation.
Nobody cares or speculates about the average everyday prison-suicides.

It's fun to imagine the real-world is as textured and intriguing as our films and novels.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 22, 2019 01:52PM)
And it is fun to pretend journalists have sine special knowledge when they have proven time and again the opposite is true.

Life itself is really rather mundane and boring. Most events have a very simple and boring explanation.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 01:54PM)
"we assume powerful and wealthy people had motivation"

I don't.

"Nobody cares or speculates about the average everyday prison-suicides."

I do.

"It's fun to imagine the real-world is as textured and intriguing as our films and novels."

Not for me.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 22, 2019 01:59PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"we assume powerful and wealthy people had motivation"

I don't.

"Nobody cares or speculates about the average everyday prison-suicides."

I do.

"It's fun to imagine the real-world is as textured and intriguing as our films and novels."

Not for me. [/quote]

Every wealthy person photographed with Epstein and his harem wishes it would all go away. And it did.
Caring is generally more than posting and thinking good-thoughts for the downtrodden. I suspect few if any of us are actually involved in prison-reform.
Conspiracy is fun!!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 02:07PM)
Facts: Nice looking person reads various stories to the camera. Ad copy writer spins a couple of rumors into a riveting drama of unstated suppositions.

Heard much from those who claim to be victims in the last few days?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 02:23PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"we assume powerful and wealthy people had motivation"

I don't.

"Nobody cares or speculates about the average everyday prison-suicides."

I do.

"It's fun to imagine the real-world is as textured and intriguing as our films and novels."

Not for me. [/quote]

Every wealthy person photographed with Epstein and his harem wishes it would all go away. And it did.
Caring is generally more than posting and thinking good-thoughts for the downtrodden. I suspect few if any of us are actually involved in prison-reform.
Conspiracy is fun!! [/quote]
Again, not for me.
Many people attempt or commit suicide when facing life in a cage.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 02:32PM)
[quote]"If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?"

Yes. [/quote]

So every long walk across a short pier is a suicide? No.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 02:35PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh PLEASE do not lump detective and journalist into the same category. And do not elevate the level of knowledge a journalist has over an MD. How nutty.

Do you even know what goes into a cause of death determination?

Stop acting like journalists are educated in some way greater than the world. [/quote]

You're missing my point completely. Did the MD know all the facts surrounding the death? [i]All[/i] the facts, not just the medical ones.

Until they come out, a verdict of suicide is premature.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 02:49PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh PLEASE do not lump detective and journalist into the same category. And do not elevate the level of knowledge a journalist has over an MD. How nutty.

Do you even know what goes into a cause of death determination?

Stop acting like journalists are educated in some way greater than the world. [/quote]

You're missing my point completely. Did the MD know all the facts surrounding the death? [i]All[/i] the facts, not just the medical ones.

Until they come out, a verdict of suicide is premature. [/quote]
Incorrect. Suicide is suicide. Death by one's own hand. Now if anyone coerced that person through social media or blackmail or shaming, then they can be investigated and charged. But that isn't for the medical examiner to decide. He doesn't need to deal with the grassy knoll.
He determines the cause of death.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 03:38PM)
[quote]On Aug 20, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
What is the difference between suicide and murder? [/quote]
"Sui" is Latin for self. Cide is latin for kill or death.
Homicide means "homo" or man has been killed.
Murder means it was intentional.
Huge differences . [/quote]


Suicide is the deliberate killing of oneself: that is intentional and not accidental. So your big difference is so small that I cannot see it even with a microscope.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 04:18PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]"If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?"

Yes. [/quote]

So every long walk across a short pier is a suicide? No. [/quote]
Long walk on a short pier? Could you explain what you mean by this?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 04:19PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, tommy wrote:
[quote]On Aug 20, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 19, 2019, tommy wrote:
What is the difference between suicide and murder? [/quote]
"Sui" is Latin for self. Cide is latin for kill or death.
Homicide means "homo" or man has been killed.
Murder means it was intentional.
Huge differences . [/quote]


Suicide is the deliberate killing of oneself: that is intentional and not accidental. So your big difference is so small that I cannot see it even with a microscope. [/quote]
There is a huge difference between intentionally killing yourself (suicide) and someone else killing you (homicide). Pretty straight forward no?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 22, 2019 04:46PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh PLEASE do not lump detective and journalist into the same category. And do not elevate the level of knowledge a journalist has over an MD. How nutty.

Do you even know what goes into a cause of death determination?

Stop acting like journalists are educated in some way greater than the world. [/quote]

You're missing my point completely. Did the MD know all the facts surrounding the death? [i]All[/i] the facts, not just the medical ones.

Until they come out, a verdict of suicide is premature. [/quote]

And you are missing mine. Do you aurally have any clue what goes into a determination like this? If not then yout claiming ANYTHING is premature.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 04:52PM)
No: "Someone else killing you" can also be accidental and not (homicide). It is pretty obvious you are wrong again.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 05:26PM)
There's opinion and intention in language. Especially language which treats a process as noun, or a life as a fact.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 05:28PM)
We don’t need to wait for the official story because we all know what it will be: It was a lone nut and not a conspiracy.

Through early morning fog I see
Visions of the things to be
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 05:44PM)
@tommy, so far we have item 6a on the form visible on page 21 of the will scribid linked earlier - it says "Pending Further Study". There's some discussion of terms and usage in the Medical Examiners guide linked from the CDC a few posts after.

My opinion is that the circumstances as described are mysterious in an uncomfortable way.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 06:36PM)
Thank you but I will have to read it to see or try to see what you are getting at. That sounds odd anyway: I mean I don't think one can have that sort of condition in a valid will.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 07:27PM)
? Item linked from scribid contains the will, the court filing, and then the death certificate. Look on the last page (21) for the certificate. On the certificate item 6a is cause of death.

Details about terms used on the certificate and role of the medical examiner can found in the CDC guide linked from the CDC.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 07:34PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, tommy wrote:
No: "Someone else killing you" can also be accidental and not (homicide). It is pretty obvious you are wrong again. [/quote]
Incorrect. With all due respect Tommy, homicide is not necessarily intentional.
It includes accidental.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 07:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]"If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?"

Yes. [/quote]

So every long walk across a short pier is a suicide? No. [/quote]
Long walk on a short pier? Could you explain what you mean by this? [/quote]

Think "Walking the plank." All those folks on pirate boats were just committing suicide?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 07:45PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
? Item linked from scribid contains the will, the court filing, and then the death certificate. Look on the last page (21) for the certificate. On the certificate item 6a is cause of death.

Details about terms used on the certificate and role of the medical examiner can found in the CDC guide linked from the CDC. [/quote]

But Jon, that was pending the medical examiner's report which did come later. So not really germane to the discussion. The examiner's report supersedes the death certificate I would think.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 22, 2019 07:46PM)
Right, I see it. You mean the Death Certificate says Cause Pending Further Study. Well, it was filed Aug 11. At which point I guess they were still inquiring into the cause. I think all one needs to file a death is a form signed by a doctor or two. One takes that form to the registry office of births and deaths. His Brother probably needed the death cert for legal reasons, like getting money out the bank, if he is next of kin. I don't see anything wrong with it.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 07:52PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]"If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?"

Yes. [/quote]

So every long walk across a short pier is a suicide? No. [/quote]
Long walk on a short pier? Could you explain what you mean by this? [/quote]

Think "Walking the plank." All those folks on pirate boats were just committing suicide? [/quote]
You're kidding right? You're using a form of execution as your argument? So like walking into a gas chamber, or laying on an injection table? Please tell me you're kidding.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 07:55PM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, tommy wrote:
No: "Someone else killing you" can also be accidental and not (homicide). It is pretty obvious you are wrong again. [/quote]
No. Someone else killing you is homicide which can include accidental or intentional.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 22, 2019 08:31PM)
[quote]"If I aim a gun at you and order you to stab yourself, is it suicide?"

Yes. [/quote]

My point is that the answer to this question cannot be suicide, any more than walking the plank is.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 22, 2019 08:46PM)
Wow. Just, wow.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 08:54PM)
Of course it's more convenient feel some sort of justice has been served. I sympathize. The collection of odd reports, his roommate was Nick Tartaglione? Previous neck injury? Security camera on the entrance was not working, his half-hour check in staff were AWOL... a new will, ... make for other less savory stories than what's official.

The Chief Medical Examiner, Barbara Sampson, has written her opinion. So it is. That matter is done. What comes of his associates and accusers - time may tell.

BTW magicfish is working from the correct definitions of homicide and suicide.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 23, 2019 02:11AM)
The meaning "person who kills himself deliberately" is from 1728. In Anglo-Latin, the term for "one who commits suicide" was felo-de-se, literally "one guilty concerning himself."

Even in 1749, in the full blaze of the philosophic movement, we find a suicide named Portier dragged through the streets of Paris with his face to the ground, hung from a gallows by his feet, and then thrown into the sewers; and the laws were not abrogated till the Revolution, which, having founded so many other forms of freedom, accorded the liberty of death. [W.E.H. Lecky, "History of European Morals," 1869]

Murder does not have to be intentional, it is suicide that does.

i.e One throws oneself off a bridge into a river intending to kill oneself but a brave cop dives in and saves one but the cop drowns, then in such a case in some places, one could be charged with murder.

I do think Magicfish is correct with regard to homicide.
Message: Posted by: TomB (Aug 23, 2019 05:54AM)
Tommy,
What if you drank your self silly and then choked on your own vomit later that night. It would not be homicide as no one else was involved. It would be suicide, and since you did not intend to kill yourself, it is accidental. The same goes for people who overdose that had a bad reaction to multiple pills. It happens all the time.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 23, 2019 06:01AM)
So Jim Morrison committed suicide??
Message: Posted by: TomB (Aug 23, 2019 06:04AM)
Tommy,
Whenever someone forces you to do anything, and you are not operating under your free will, it is not going to pass any legal muster.

If someone forces you to kill yourself (including walking the plank), it is not suicide, it is homicide. Someone else forced you to die. The problem is proving it, without you around to speak. The detective is only going to see the evidence he can find, self inflicted wound. But if there was a video tape he found, it wouldnt be suicide.

Someone has to throw the switch or fire the gun, and its homicide, even though the law permits homicide in some cases. Many times there is a firing squad to alleviate the conscience if any individual so they don't know who actually killed the person.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 23, 2019 07:32AM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Wow. Just, wow. [/quote]

Let's try to actually respond to arguments with counter-arguments, yes? More interesting that way.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 23, 2019 09:03AM)
Yes, common sense and common law, tells us that suicide consists of not of one thing but a combination of two things:

1, Mens Rea is the mental element of a crime.
2, Actus Reus is the physical element of a crime.

Thus a child or somebody judged to have been insane could not commit suicide under common law: while they could commit the act of killing themselves, they lacked the mens rea, the mental element of the crime. Accidents are not crimes generally speaking but the mens rea covers things like deliberate recklessness.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 23, 2019 04:45PM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't believe it for a minute. [/quote]Do we shrug it off as "things happen"?
Looks like you were working from the circumstantial likelihood. Negligence as cause?
I went from the first signal from the incident to the formal paperwork for facts.

There's a general question about responsibility for a creature taken out of its habitat - for someday.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 23, 2019 06:33PM)
It will be interesting to see what the brother, Ms. Maxwell, the lawyers, and the victims have to say.

It will be interesting to find out more about the 1953 fund.

It will be interesting to find out just why those particular guards went AWOL at that particular time.

It will be interesting to find out why the cameras happened to go out just at the time of the death.

It will be interesting to hear more about the reasons that Acosta had for letting off Epstein so lightly the first time.

I think one would have to be fairly naive, given the guest lists, the illegal behaviors, and the money involved, to think that the threads lead nowhere.

How did Jeffrey Epstein make his money?

Official words, especially first words, are *always* to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Receipts, please.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 23, 2019 06:55PM)
It will be interesting to see you providing evidence that tends to persuade us that what you are asserting above are facts.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 23, 2019 07:33PM)
It will be interesting to see who here first links to the 4chan post shown as screencap in the lede story.
404?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 23, 2019 08:05PM)
It would be interesting to know how they manage to assign two guards to one prisoner when the ratio of prisoners to guards is nine prisoners to one guard.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 23, 2019 09:54PM)
[quote]On Aug 23, 2019, tommy wrote:
It will be interesting to see you providing evidence that tends to persuade us that what you are asserting above are facts. [/quote]



I asserted no facts; I asked for evidence and investigation into the issues raised before accepting a pre-digested narrative. It's why I ended with:

[quote]Receipts, please[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 23, 2019 11:10PM)
Well the investigation is not subject to your approval, contrary to what you you seem to think.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 23, 2019 11:17PM)
Whose approval the investigation is subject to is also always an interesting question. A whole load of documents have been hoovered up from St. Thomas and Madison Avenue. I wonder if we'll ever know what was in those documents.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 23, 2019 11:49PM)
Oh better for the conspiracy if we never know.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 24, 2019 06:34AM)
Well then, we can both hope for transparency.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 24, 2019 07:15AM)
It is interesting that you ask for evidence of why without offering any of what.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 24, 2019 09:54AM)
I'm amused that you're playing both sides of this, tommy. It makes me nostalgic for Mark L. Anyway, I indicated several areas, in several posts, of what I would be interested in knowing more about. I don't understand why you keep asking me for evidence. I wasn't there, nor was I part of Epstein's circle---that's what I'm hoping for from those who were. Until then, I will not believe a pre-digested narrative.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 24, 2019 11:14AM)
A prisoner is dead and the cause of death determined by a scientist.

So far, the only pre-digested narrative is that this is something other than a scumbag killing himself so he wouldnt have to face the music.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 24, 2019 01:49PM)
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-watch-high-level-psychologist-n1046071
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 24, 2019 02:25PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-watch-high-level-psychologist-n1046071 [/quote]
Please link to a source which does not attempt to impose its advertisers cookies
So, just the facts, please
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 24, 2019 03:29PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-watch-high-level-psychologist-n1046071 [/quote]
Please link to a source which does not attempt to impose its advertisers cookies
So, just the facts, please [/quote]

As soon as you find one of those let us know.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 24, 2019 07:01PM)
Prisons are designed like ships: that is to say, in such a way that high ranking officers can oversee almost everything from the bridge. In prison, there is a centre glass office, commonly known as the goldfish bowl and in there are high ranking offices that can see every cell door etcetera on the landings. There are normally two landing officers of lower rank, one on each side of the landing, one on either side. These landing officers are watched all day from the goldfish bowl. If an officer went missing and could not be seen, there would be an alarm raised, for their safety. It cannot be stressed enough how important it is for them to know where each officer is at all times. So the assertion that two officers went awl does not ring true.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 24, 2019 09:27PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-watch-high-level-psychologist-n1046071 [/quote]
Please link to a source which does not attempt to impose its advertisers cookies
So, just the facts, please [/quote]
Huh? Cookies?
The fact is he was taken off suicide watch.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 24, 2019 09:30PM)
So I guess a highly qualified doctor's opinion was wrong.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 24, 2019 10:05PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, landmark wrote:
So I guess a highly qualified doctor's opinion was wrong. [/quote]

Yea shocking. Are you really going to question this with 20/20 hindsight and not realize how silly that is?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 25, 2019 06:04AM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2019, landmark wrote:
So I guess a highly qualified doctor's opinion was wrong. [/quote]
Psychologists often are.
Epstein used his personality to gain many things in life. Billions of dollars with little education. He manipulated and coerced.
Perhaps he was able to convince the psychologist that he would no longer make attempts on his own life.
Wouldnt be the first professional he fooled, but certainly the last.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 25, 2019 06:07AM)
No hindsight--perfectly predictable that people make mistakes all the time, especially in a highly charged case. One should always allow for that in advance. That's why I would wait for much more evidence and context before presuming to know the state of mind or actions of Epstein.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 25, 2019 06:11AM)
So you believe he could be innocent of the charges?
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 25, 2019 10:24AM)
This thread, like the numerous other conspiracy theory threads in this section, demonstrates why a move is underway to classify conspiratorial ideation as a mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

Let's see:

The New York medical examiner, following an autopsy, concludes that a demonstrably suicidal prisoner succeeded on his second attempt by hanging himself with his bedsheet tied to the upper bunk.

Poppycock, say the conspiracy ideationists. "They" probably murdered him. Why? Because the conspiracy credulous see a complex conspiracy in ANY event where they can IMAGINE an ulterior motive, usually of the government. Credible evidence is not required. Indeed, facts to the contrary or the absence of facts supporting the conspiracy theory are themselves indicia of the elaborate conspiracy. It's how their disordered brains work. It's an off-kilter world view that researchers increasingly equate with a mental disorder.

"They" faked six manned moon landings. "They" were in on 9/11. "They" staged the D.B. Cooper airplane hijacking as a false flag operation, "They" instigated the Jade Helm army training exercises as part of a secret plot to take over Texas and then the rest of the country. And on and on, according to the various threads started here by our resident conspiracy believers.

Recent studies link conspiratorial ideation with facets of schizotypal personality disorder--a personality disorder characterized in part by lower-grade, dispositional suspicion of the type found in some forms of schizophrenia. One such study's authors noted that the "magical thinking," "odd beliefs," and "ideas of reference" common to the conspiracy credulous, combined with the "range of negative civic, social and health outcomes" among conspiracy theory believers, points to a "direct link between facets of schizotypy and belief in conspiracy theories." https://www.psypost.org/2017/10/study-links-facets-schizotypy-belief-conspiracy-theories-50027

The Magical Thinking common among conspiracy believers refers to them seeing "causal relationships between events where none exist." Similarly, Ideas of Reference refers to the conspiracy credulous "interpreting innocuous events as highly personal and significant." Id.

Hmm. Sound like anyone we know here?

A summary of the current research into persons with conspiratorial ideation:

Although numerous researchers have argued that psychopathology is insufficient to account for the prevalence of conspiracy theories (Kramer and Gavrieli 2005; Steiger et al. 2013; Swami and Coles 2010; Uscinski et al. 2011), others have forcefully argued for a conceptual relation between conspiratorial ideation and the distortions of reality characteristic of paranoia (Zonis and Joseph 1994). Researchers have consistently found that conspiracy ideation is associated with low levels of trust (Abakalina-Papp et al. 1999; Goertzel 1994) and even subclinical paranoia (Darwin et al. 2011; Grzesiak-Feldman and Ejsmont 2008). Research also has probed whether conspiracy ideation is related to schizotypy, a personality disorder characterized in part by lower-grade, dispositional suspicion of the type found in some forms of schizophrenia. Using a scale called the O-LIFE (Mason et al. 1995), which measures four discrete dimensions of schizotypy, Swami and colleagues (Swami et al. 2013) observed that conspiracy ideation is associated with higher scores on the Unusual Experiences Scale, which measures suspicion as well as other perceptual and cognitive distortions. It appears therefore that conspiracy ideation is reliably related to suspicion. Because suspicion requires selective attention to another's motive, these findings connect with the observation that acceptance of fictional conspiracy stories increases when the story highlights the potential motive of the alleged conspirator, even when the documented evidence of a conspiracy is poor (Bost and Prunier 2013). Importantly, the connection between suspicion and conspiracy ideation does not in itself imply that the suspicion is pathological. Numerous authors have argued that a degree of suspicion is an adaptive trait in humans, who rely on it to promote equity in the transactions inherent to social living (for one such argument, see Vohs et al. 2007). Attention to others' motives, although characteristic of paranoia (Darwin et al. 2011), is therefore an ingredient in everyday social interaction (e.g., Cosmides and Tooby 1992). Seen in this light, conspiracy ideation represents not an irrational departure from reality but perhaps rather an intensified focus on information that all humans regularly rely on in social cognition. In other words, some conspiracy ideation may be grounded in the rules of human cognition, which employ a dose of suspicion as a protective mechanism. This notion is broadly consistent with Sunstein and Vermeule’s (2009, 208) suggestion that conspiracy theories require that all events be seen as the product of some actor's intention.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2015/01/crazy_beliefs_sane_believers_toward_a_cognitive_psychology_of_conspiracy_id/

Researchers hope to develop "intervention routes for reducing conspiracist beliefs, either by targeting schizotypal traits indirectly or cognitive factors directly." https://www.psypost.org/2017/10/study-links-facets-schizotypy-belief-conspiracy-theories-50027

Poppycock. Clearly, "they" want us to believe that those with conspiratorial ideation are, shall we say, a little off.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 25, 2019 10:42AM)
Sometimes They are truly up to no good. They killed the electric car. They manipulated people on Facebook by stealing our data. They run the prayer breakfast in DC and advise politicians. They are real, man.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 25, 2019 10:49AM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, landmark wrote:
No hindsight--perfectly predictable that people make mistakes all the time, especially in a highly charged case. One should always allow for that in advance. That's why I would wait for much more evidence and context before presuming to know the state of mind or actions of Epstein. [/quote]

But you know perfectly well the state of mind of the guards.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 25, 2019 10:53AM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Sometimes They are truly up to no good. They killed the electric car. They manipulated people on Facebook by stealing our data. They run the prayer breakfast in DC and advise politicians. They are real, man. [/quote]

Small pockets of them does nut prove the existence of "they".
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 25, 2019 12:02PM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Sometimes They are truly up to no good. They killed the electric car. They manipulated people on Facebook by stealing our data. They run the prayer breakfast in DC and advise politicians. They are real, man. [/quote]

Small pockets of them does nut prove the existence of "they". [/quote]


They with Deep Pockets secretly control and manipulate economies and politics on a global scale. I assume we can all agree? This isn't fantasy island.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 25, 2019 12:19PM)
Looking at the linked article;
Picture of Harry Potter with tinfoil hat offering unshaved Truth
Large ad for weighted blankets
Two short paragraphs arguing that the notion of schizophrenia is disintegrating and so researchers are turning to schizotypal topics*
Followed by a different large box ad for weighted blankets.

*yeah, I read somewhere that polar bears are wandering into grizzly territory. :smoke:
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 25, 2019 01:22PM)
I rest my case.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 25, 2019 01:42PM)
Nobody ever admits propaganda works on them.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 25, 2019 02:16PM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
I rest my case. [/quote] This case: "...that all events be seen as the product of some actor's intention." as diagnostic criterion? Oh My.

A varied diet of facts and experience can help with occasional conspiracy.
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 25, 2019 02:21PM)
We aren't talking about advertising and consumer behavior at the moment, Mr. S.

We're talking about conspiratorial ideation (aka conspiracy ideation, conspiracy belief) as expressed in the conspiracy theorist's latest delusional cause celebre: disbelief in the New York medical examiner's finding of suicide in the death of Jeffrey Epstein (his second attempt, this time hanging himself in his cell with his bedsheet tied to the upper bunk), in favor of yet another outlandish conspiracy theory that is unsubstantiated by any credible evidence.

Whether conspiratorial ideation will be classified as a mental disorder in the DSM, and whether effective treatments can be found, remain to be seen. For now, the prevailing view among psychiatrists and psychologists is that the conspiracy credulous exhibit traits indicative of disordered thinking. This thread, and others like it, support that view.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 25, 2019 02:31PM)
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean They're not out to getcha.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 25, 2019 02:43PM)
Https://www.scribd.com/document/422953310/DOJ-Letter-on-Epstein

[i]Small pockets of them does nut prove the existence of "they"[/i] -agreed.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 25, 2019 03:58PM)
Like I said, the guy committed suicide. Pretty standard, which is why we have suicide watch- but he was taken off. So he killed himself.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 25, 2019 08:22PM)
I admit propaganda works on them.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 25, 2019 09:09PM)
[b]Aliens![/b]
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 25, 2019 09:47PM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 25, 2019, landmark wrote:
No hindsight--perfectly predictable that people make mistakes all the time, especially in a highly charged case. One should always allow for that in advance. That's why I would wait for much more evidence and context before presuming to know the state of mind or actions of Epstein. [/quote]

But you know perfectly well the state of mind of the guards. [/quote]

?
Where have I ever mentioned anything about the state of mind of the guards? Kind of left field there, Danny.
Message: Posted by: bcstoner (Aug 26, 2019 01:53AM)
Epstein was LITERALLY the most important prisoner the US was holding at the time. The people he knew and the things he knew about them would've been talked about for decades, possibly centuries. He should've been the most guarded prisoner in the history of prisoners. Well above El Chapo and anyone else. But no..

Lets just look at the strange thinks that took place.

1. Epstein was found unresponsive in his cell, with marks around his neck less than 3 weeks prior from an apparent suicide attempt. He was placed on suicide watch but taken off 6 days later.

2. Epstein was then placed in a cell that had no cameras monitoring the cell.

3. Prison policy where he was being kept stated that he was supposed to have a cellmate with him because of his suicide risk. Epsteins cellmate, the night of his death was moved by guards and they never replaced the cellmate or returned the other.

4. Prison policy also stated that Epstein should've been checked on every 30 minutes. This policy was not followed but that really doesn't even matter since it's such a **** policy. Someone can do A LOT of hard to themselves in 30 minutes. Anyways. Epstein was left, alone, in his cell, for almost 3 hours. Why? Because the guards responsible for him were asleep. One was on their fifth straight day of overtime, while the other was working mandatory overtime.

5. 2 days prior to Epsteins death, he signed and redrafted his will. He transferred all of his money and estate over to his brother. If this isn't a red flag saying 'Hey guys.. I think he might be planning on trying to kill himself or knows someone is planning on killing him' then I don't know what is.

I wont give into if I believe he did it, someone did it for him, or if someone setup the circumstances that would allow him to do it. But I can say for a fact that prison policy, pure negligence, and total lack of common sense sure made it easy. He not only hurt countless victims during his lifetime. He denied these victims ever getting the justice they deserved. He was allowed to take the easy way out.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 26, 2019 02:10AM)
You know die absolute fact all those c strange things" happened?
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 26, 2019 08:40AM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, bcstoner wrote:
prison policy, pure negligence, and total lack of common sense sure made it easy [for Epstein to kill himself][/quote]

An accurate statement based on the factual information reported.

Incompetence and stupidity does not an outlandish conspiracy make.

Plus, as you note, neither a longer suicide watch (they don't continue indefinitely) nor more regular monitoring (but for sleepy, overtaxed guards due to budget and staffing cuts) would have prevented this suicide. A determined suicidal prisoner will get the job done regardless.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 26, 2019 10:03AM)
[quote] A determined suicidal prisoner will get the job done regardless. [/quote]

Have you looked at the suicide stats for MCC?
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 26, 2019 01:03PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote] A determined suicidal prisoner will get the job done regardless. [/quote]

Have you looked at the suicide stats for MCC? [/quote]

To my knowledge, there aren't any available statistics comparing:

1. Suicide attempts of federal detainees in general to suicide attempts at the Manhattan Correctional Center,

2. Successful suicides of federal detainees in general to successful suicides at the MCC, or

3. Suicide attempts and successful suicides of detainees at the MCC before recent federal budget cuts vs suicide attempts and successful suicides of detainees at the MCC after the budget cuts and resulting staff shortages and overtaxed personnel.

Even if there were, so what?

Let's say that 99% of federal detainees don’t attempt suicide and that of the 1% that do, half are successful. The half of 1% that succeed, as determined by the medical examiner or coroner, were actually murdered pursuant to a dark conspiracy requiring untold numbers of conspirators plus a head of the conspiracy giving the order?

Some federal detainees and some inmates attempt suicide, and some are successful. Epstein tried it twice. His second attempt was successful, as determined by the New York medical examiner.

Did you know that another high-flying disgraced financier facing criminal charges killed himself around the same time as Epstein? His name was Adrian Hill, age 60. He drowned himself in his swimming pool by crawling under the pool's cover and sliding into the water. Mr. Hill was an architect of the subprime mortgage lending practice in the UK that sparked the worldwide financial crisis in 2008. He knew a lot of bad things and hurt a lot of people who will never get closure. Was Hill silenced by the same big, bad conspiracy that silenced Epstein? Were his autopsy and cause-of-death rulings coerced or bought, like Epstein's would have to have been for the conspiracy nuts to have their day?

At least 40 disgraced financiers killed themselves in the 17 months after March 2013 when the global banking scandal unfolded. Surely they knew a lot of bad things about a lot powerful people, and surely they left victims unsatisfied by offing themselves. Were they actually murdered too? By the same nameless, faceless conspirators that murdered Hill and Epstein? Were these the same nebulous conspirators behind the Jade Helm army training exercises that were a cover to take over Texas? To fake the six United States moon landings? To stage the D.B. Cooper false flag airline hijacking?

Wow. What a bleak and solipsistic world you conspiracy ideationists have constructed for yourselves.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 26, 2019 01:24PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote] A determined suicidal prisoner will get the job done regardless. [/quote]

Have you looked at the suicide stats for MCC? [/quote]
Have you looked at the stats of suicidal detainees who werenton suicide watch?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 26, 2019 02:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
By the same nameless, faceless conspirators that murdered Hill and Epstein? Were these the same nebulous conspirators behind the Jade Helm army training exercises that were a cover to take over Texas? To fake the six United States moon landings? To stage the D.B. Cooper false flag airline hijacking?

Wow. What a bleak and solipsistic world you conspiracy ideationists have constructed for yourselves. [/quote]

Geez dude. You've lumped the true-wackos into a group pondering the possibility that the facts surrounding Epstein's demise aren't entirely transparent.
There are absolutely true-conspiracies and misinformation propagated by big-money and nation-states: killing electric cars, climate-denial, overprescribing opioids etc.
The existence of Bigfoot-aficionados and Area-51-crashers doesn't negate the possibility of new-order meddling.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 26, 2019 02:24PM)
It doesn't prove it either.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 26, 2019 04:11PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It doesn't prove it either. [/quote]

Nobody is trying to prove anything. It's all a jape.
After this we're all gonna gang over to another forum and argue about the celebrity-casting of the new Street Fighter live-action movie.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 26, 2019 06:05PM)
The most important piece of evidence will be the landing officer's book.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 26, 2019 06:12PM)
[quote]
At least 40 disgraced financiers killed themselves in the 17 months after March 2013 when the global banking scandal unfolded.[/quote]

How many of these exactly were in Federal lockup?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 26, 2019 06:16PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It doesn't prove it either. [/quote]

Absolutely correct.
And I don't say it does.
I say there's more investigation to be done.
I'm not a fan of the "Nothing to see here, move along, case closed," point of view.
It's a curious lack of curiosity, in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 26, 2019 08:18PM)
This is the most believable, most predictable, prisoner suicide I'm aware of.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 26, 2019 09:20PM)
[b][i]Aliens![/i][/b]
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 26, 2019 09:34PM)
@landmark - I hold that curiosity does not weigh upon infotainment content. Did Luke get together with Laura? Millions cared for months. Our infotainment responds to attention. Attention is monetized in millions per minute. Real question: Does money have a smell? Without that choice we may as well deny that we blink on the basis of what we see in the mirror. That's not magic - it's hardwired solipsism. If you're curious about backstory and like to read here's some wallowing material: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/926089926566993920.html
*
* Too serious - back to playtime:
*
Perhaps there are some here who can honestly say there are no men in black or aliens, no UFOs or other civilizations.
Last century Doctor Seuss (who wasn't), Mister Spock (who wasn't) and Doctor Spock who told parents not to, left quite an impression, no?
To amuse those who'd scribble tetragramatons: ESFP and ENFP have agreed to curb their *STJ. So says the FAQ ;)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 26, 2019 09:37PM)
Who the $%#@ are Luke and Laura?!
And what is ESFP and ENFP and *STJ?
Why do you do this?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 26, 2019 09:52PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Luke and Laura?! [/quote]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_and_Laura

Fictional, from years of angsty soap opera fuss decades ago. Months of it - frequently mentioned on the news at the time.

I object to making light or trivia of a person's suffering. Not happy to see clinical language used in politics either.

The four letter codes are Myers-Briggs.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 26, 2019 10:13PM)
[youtube]74oGgFTgpI4[/youtube]


If you were 'they' wouldn't you have found a more feasible way to kill him? Shanked in the shower has always been an old favorite...


IMO, my Alien/Bigfoot theory (backed up by beta particle transmissions) holds up rather well.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 26, 2019 10:30PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...Why do you do this? [/quote]Mostly from (misguided?) belief that some old unproductive patterns can be avoided by using newer tools. Say once that such things are what you find acceptable and desirable and I won't bother to speak against them again at the Café. Let it be?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 26, 2019 10:30PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Who the $%#@ are Luke and Laura?!
And what is ESFP and ENFP and *STJ?
Why do you do this? [/quote]

He never stops.

A new tool might be just using English Jonathan and not the weird word salad you seem to think is communication.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 26, 2019 10:36PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 26, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...Why do you do this? [/quote]Mostly from (misguided?) belief that some old unproductive patterns can be avoided by using newer tools. Say once that such things are what you find acceptable and desirable and I won't bother to speak against them again at the Café. Let it be? [/quote]
You did it again.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 26, 2019 11:54PM)
Epstein was accused, tried and convicted of sex trafficking minors. Despicable crimes. His death was not part of our criminal justice system. That large building with all those people did not escort Epstein though the criminal and trial process. With all those accusers - it wasn't about his life anymore so much as keeping him around to face their process. Moving his money out to a trust, saving his money, before taking his life seems like another act against his accusers.

The thought that his adult passengers on his plane and helicopter were somehow complicit or escorts just makes my head spin. How many people actively supported or enabled that activity?
Message: Posted by: bcstoner (Aug 27, 2019 12:40AM)
Well it seems that camera footage from outside Epsteins cell has been deemed unusable. Who could've guess that? I bet William Barr could've guessed it.

William Barr, the guy whose father, Donald Barr, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr

was the headmaster of a school that later hired the incredibly unqualified Jeffrey Epstein to be a math teacher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Barr#Career

The same William Barr whose father, Donald Barr, wrote a novel about an alien sex-trafficking ring whose protagonist falls in love with their captor. https://www.amazon.com/Space-relations-slightly-gothic-interplanetary/dp/0860000249/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8#customerReviews

The same William Barr that joined lawfirm Kirkland & Ellis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barr#Post-DOJ_career

just months after they represented Jeffrey Epstein in a case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkland_%26_Ellis#Notable_clients_and_cases

The same Kirkland & Ellis Law Firm that also employed Alexander Acosta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkland_%26_Ellis#Notable_attorneys_and_alumni

the US Attorney that accepted Jeffrey Epstein's ridiculous plea deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Acosta#Prosecution_of_Jeffrey_Epstein
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 27, 2019 01:32AM)
[img]https://i.imgur.com/77GCyTB.gif[/img]

The video is a bit long, but you can determine if it is unusable or not.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 27, 2019 05:34AM)
After he had been found unconscious in his cell with marks on his neck in July, he had claimed that he had attempted to commit suicide. In reality, he had hired a hitman to kill him who had tried to strangle him to death and failed. At the time of his death, 101 men were seen wearing shirts of the same colour. The same colour as the shirt normally worn by the hitman. Said a source believed to be close to the investigation who lives in a flying saucer.
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 27, 2019 07:36AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, tommy wrote:
Said a source believed to be close to the investigation who lives in a flying saucer. [/quote]

Hahaha. Good one.

That prison hitman has been busy, indeed. 49 "suicides" in federal lockups in the past two years alone.

Evidently, the Deep State hired him in 2014 (or maybe it was a powerful Nation-State or the Industrial Military Complex or the Illuminati or . . .). Since then, the incidence of supposed suicide, attempted suicide, and self-inflicted injuries among the jail and prison population has spiked to where suicide (wink wink) now accounts for a third of all deaths in state and federal lockups. Epstein obviously is the latest victim in this orchestrated carnage. I hear that this hitman's base of operations is the basement of that pizza parlor that runs the pedophile ring for members of the Democratic Party. I'll check with the guy in the flying saucer for details.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 27, 2019 08:46AM)
The guy rubbed elbows with celebrities :http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-high-society-contacts.html
bcstoner posted the links to aliens, flying saucers, grooming and keeping the customers entertained above.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 27, 2019 08:54AM)
[quote]indeed. 49 "suicides" in federal lockups in the past two years alone. [/quote]

Good, at least we're now in the realm of looking at suicide probability in a federal lockup. Divide that number by # of federal lockups. Then divide by two for annual number. Then adjust for number of "suicides" that were committed by other inmates or guards. The result is very low. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I found a reference to only one previous suicide at MCC. I can't confirm that figure, so I don't take it as gospel, but given the calculation above, it seems well within the realm of possibility.

Here's a little anecdotal: Bernie Madoff's son committed suicide by hanging in his apartment. Bernie Madoff, in federal lockup for 150 years, is still alive. Suicide takes intention and access to means.

Glad to discuss, disagree, and defend my point of view, ES, as well as to consider others' POVs. But the weak ad hominem attacks are not really conducive to further engagement.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 27, 2019 09:46AM)
A local jail takes prisoners to and from the courts, categorizes them when sentenced and sends them off to serve their sentence. So there is a massive turnover, usually no work or education, prisoners are locked up 24/7 more or less. They are to hold them for a short time. Local jails see most suicides because of the bad conditions and lack of care and so on.

By the way, it is not the officers who do the suicide watch but the cons known as listeners and trained by the Samaritan's etcetera.
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Aug 27, 2019 10:40AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]Glad to discuss, disagree, and defend my point of view, ES, as well as to consider others' POVs. But the weak ad hominem attacks are not really conducive to further engagement. [/quote]

Sorry landmark. I find it unproductive and a waste of life to debate nonsense.

Get back to us if and when there is a shred of credible evidence to refute the findings of the medical examiner that a suicidal detainee, alone in his cell, succeeded on his second suicide attempt, by hanging himself to death with his bed sheet.

Until then, there is nothing to discuss or disagree with.
Message: Posted by: bcstoner (Aug 27, 2019 11:29AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
The guy rubbed elbows with celebrities :http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-high-society-contacts.html
bcstoner posted the links to aliens, flying saucers, grooming and keeping the customers entertained above. [/quote]

All I did was post a book written by someone with close ties to Epstein.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 27, 2019 01:41PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]Glad to discuss, disagree, and defend my point of view, ES, as well as to consider others' POVs. But the weak ad hominem attacks are not really conducive to further engagement. [/quote]

Sorry landmark. I find it unproductive and a waste of life to debate nonsense.

Get back to us if and when there is a shred of credible evidence to refute the findings of the medical examiner that a suicidal detainee, alone in his cell, succeeded on his second suicide attempt, by hanging himself to death with his bed sheet.

Until then, there is nothing to discuss or disagree with. [/quote]
Bingo.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 27, 2019 02:52PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, bcstoner wrote:
All I did was post a book written by someone with close ties to Epstein. [/quote]You're not getting blamed. Relax. The science fiction happened to parallel the implausible conspiracies mentioned.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 27, 2019 03:09PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
Get back to us if and when there is a shred of credible evidence to refute the findings of the medical examiner that a suicidal detainee, alone in his cell, succeeded on his second suicide attempt, by hanging himself to death with his bed sheet.

Until then, there is nothing to discuss or disagree with. [/quote]

I got one. Why was a serial-suicidal detainee left alone in his cell with shred-able bed-sheets?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 27, 2019 03:19PM)
I would be extremely surprised if Epstein was murdered.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone in the prison-system was "encouraged" to lower their work standards.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 27, 2019 03:31PM)
The standards in local prisons are at rock bottom and so could hardly be lowered.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 27, 2019 03:38PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
Get back to us if and when there is a shred of credible evidence to refute the findings of the medical examiner that a suicidal detainee, alone in his cell, succeeded on his second suicide attempt, by hanging himself to death with his bed sheet.

Until then, there is nothing to discuss or disagree with. [/quote]

I got one. Why was a serial-suicidal detainee left alone in his cell with shred-able bed-sheets? [/quote]
Because he was taken off suicide watch.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 27, 2019 06:41PM)
The Srews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 27, 2019 07:59PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
Get back to us if and when there is a shred of credible evidence to refute the findings of the medical examiner that a suicidal detainee, alone in his cell, succeeded on his second suicide attempt, by hanging himself to death with his bed sheet.

Until then, there is nothing to discuss or disagree with. [/quote]

I got one. Why was a serial-suicidal detainee left alone in his cell with shred-able bed-sheets? [/quote]

Because a doctor, with likely more experience than any magician on this board in the field of whether someone should be on suicide watch or not, examined him and made a medical determination that he should be taken off.

What exactly is a "serial-suicidal detainee" exactly?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 27, 2019 08:55PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

What exactly is a "serial-suicidal detainee" exactly? [/quote]

If at first you don't succeed....

AG Barr fired the bureau of prisons director over the incident. Trump is blaming the Clintons. The highest levels of government are pointing fingers in addition to sub forum magicians. I'm not claiming an appeal to authority, but it's not madness to ponder the possibility of outside influence.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 27, 2019 09:06PM)
Wow. We went from global conspiracy to, "it's not madness to ponder the possibility of outside influence."

What a back pedal.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 27, 2019 09:08PM)
No... that's serial back pedalling... ;)
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 27, 2019 10:24PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Wow. We went from global conspiracy to, "it's not madness to ponder the possibility of outside influence."

What a back pedal. [/quote]
I'm the voice of reason. Don't lump me with the mixed nuts.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 28, 2019 03:56AM)
Because the prison authorities took him off suicide watch and put him into solitary confinement, which is known to drive men insane, I would say the prison authorities are largely responsible for his death.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 08:06AM)
LOL. Astonishing how some posters continually make ad hominem attacks and grossly distort the positions of others, and then cry "Back pedal!" when they are called on their misrepresentations.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 28, 2019 08:40AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, landmark wrote:
LOL. Astonishing how some posters continually make ad hominem attacks and grossly distort the positions of others, and then cry "Back pedal!" when they are called on their misrepresentations. [/quote]
Sorry, this post makes zero sense.
So far, you and maybe one other are the only ones misrepresenting anything here, and you've been called on it continually since your original post.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 09:15AM)
Intelligent reasonable questions stem from experience. Nobody in this thread has any in the fields in which they want to question. When answers are given they just dismiss them with more irrelevant questions. Just like any good conspiracy.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 10:09AM)
I never took a position other than this:

[quote]On Aug 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
First of all IF it was organized. Why can't we work with facts?

Second of all if it was indeed organized who else but those implicated with a lot to lose would bother? [i]Not really a shocking out on a limb position to take.[/i] [emphasis mine]

Lastly the list of those implicated would be quite long and be more red and blue than most of us would want to believe. [/quote]

and this:
[quote][quote]Quote:

On Aug 26, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It doesn't prove it either. [/quote]



Absolutely correct.
And I don't say it does.
I say there's more investigation to be done.
I'm not a fan of the "Nothing to see here, move along, case closed," point of view.
It's a curious lack of curiosity, in my opinion.[/quote]

The need of the posters to misrepresent the above speaks volumes, in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 10:16AM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2019, landmark wrote:
The only suicide scenario I can imagine is if he managed to pay off people to look the other way while he planned and committed suicide. But I don't think that's the most likely scenario.

[/quote]

Here do you want to talk about all the assumptions in your second post on this thread or should we overlook? You automatically calling people you have never met corrupt. They take bribes and lie.

You know better than anyone.

Oh wait we need to forget you said this right? The ONLY scenario you can imagine is this one, even though doctors have said different.

So don't play games like this when the other posts still exist. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Just going with your theory.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 10:21AM)
[quote]On Aug 18, 2019, landmark wrote:
Not sure I can manage much sympathy for anyone who lost his job over this; like they say...You had one job, one job, and you blew it.

But again, we don't really know what happened. The hard part is we may never know. This looked like one of the rare tantalizing times when the wall cracked a bit and the men behind the oak panels would be revealed. It's like one of those unsatisfying stories where it all turns out to be a dream. [/quote]

Here again you say we may never know what happened. We have been told and you want to present unqualified questions.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 10:59AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 10, 2019, landmark wrote:
The only suicide scenario I can imagine is if he managed to pay off people to look the other way while he planned and committed suicide. But I don't think that's the most likely scenario.

[/quote]

Here do you want to talk about all the assumptions in your second post on this thread or should we overlook? You automatically calling people you have never met corrupt. They take bribes and lie.

[/quote]

I called [i]no one[/i] corrupt. But certainly it is a possibility that people [i]may be[/i] corrupt. Really, Danny, come on. You're not fresh off the boat. Neither am I.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 11:20AM)
The only scenario you can imagine IS someone taking a bribe. Those are your exact words. This is you calling people corrupt.

You make up scenarios with NO EVIDENCE other than your opinion and flights of fancy disguised thinly as questions.

It is nonsense. You make up stories and pretend they have some validity in reality. No I'm not fresh off the boat (A horribly hateful turn of phrase. As if people from other lands are automatically less informed than us. I'm shocked at this out of you.) and have seen this game before.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 28, 2019 11:41AM)
I did work as a listener: https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/prisons/listener-scheme/

Based on that experience this is just what it is like in a local jail.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/8/15/mcc_jail_conditions_jeffrey_epstein_death

Landmark there is nothing special about this local jail.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 02:01PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
The only scenario you can imagine IS someone taking a bribe. Those are your exact words. This is you calling people corrupt.

You make up scenarios with NO EVIDENCE other than your opinion and flights of fancy disguised thinly as questions.
[/quote]

Ridiculous. You're really committing yourself to a position of saying that guards are incorruptible and any [i]consideration[/i] of that eventuality is over the top? I really don't believe you believe that.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 02:07PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, tommy wrote:
I did work as a listener: https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/prisons/listener-scheme/

Based on that experience this is just what it is like in a local jail.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/8/15/mcc_jail_conditions_jeffrey_epstein_death

Landmark there is nothing special about this local jail. [/quote]

It's my backyard, tommy, and I'm quite aware of it. I did some work with [url=http://nycaic.org/] HALT [/url]this past spring which included families and formerly incarcerated men and women.

Nice find with Amy Goodman's show. She's on every morning on the radio station I work for.

And just clicked on your listener link. Terrific.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 02:29PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
The only scenario you can imagine IS someone taking a bribe. Those are your exact words. This is you calling people corrupt.

You make up scenarios with NO EVIDENCE other than your opinion and flights of fancy disguised thinly as questions.
[/quote]

Ridiculous. You're really committing yourself to a position of saying that guards are incorruptible and any [i]consideration[/i] of that eventuality is over the top? I really don't believe you believe that. [/quote]

The coroner said suicide. You make up stuff and move goalposts with NO EVIDENCE.

Present evidence of corruption please.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 02:40PM)
I don't have to present evidence. I was considering possibilities. In my opinion, not anywhere near impossible, unless one believes that guards are members of some superhuman species which is incorruptible. But again, I don't believe that you believe that.

The medical examiner has issued her report and that's fine. But that's not nearly the whole story yet. And I think it may be quite a time before we know what the story is, which already seems to be changing day by day. I am suggesting that this is not case closed yet, despite the wish for some to have immediate closure.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 28, 2019 02:50PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
The coroner said suicide. You make up stuff and move goalposts with NO EVIDENCE.

Present evidence of corruption please. [/quote]

High powered offices were swept-out by other higher powered offices over this affair.
It may well all be due to massive systemic incompetence and partisan power-moves, but considering the stakes there is nothing fanatical in raising eyebrows about possible corruption.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 03:13PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't have to present evidence. I was considering possibilities. In my opinion, not anywhere near impossible, unless one believes that guards are members of some superhuman species which is incorruptible. But again, I don't believe that you believe that.

The medical examiner has issued her report and that's fine. But that's not nearly the whole story yet. And I think it may be quite a time before we know what the story is, which already seems to be changing day by day. I am suggesting that this is not case closed yet, despite the wish for some to have immediate closure. [/quote]

You don't have to present evidence? YET you DEMAND it from others. Do you really mean this?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 03:14PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
The coroner said suicide. You make up stuff and move goalposts with NO EVIDENCE.

Present evidence of corruption please. [/quote]

High powered offices were swept-out by other higher powered offices over this affair.
It may well all be due to massive systemic incompetence and partisan power-moves, but considering the stakes there is nothing fanatical in raising eyebrows about possible corruption. [/quote]

Again evidence is preferred.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 28, 2019 03:59PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Again evidence is preferred. [/quote]

Of course. This is a thread about fishiness. It's gonna get stinky.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 28, 2019 05:41PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
...about possible corruption. [/quote]that's demanding others prove a negative.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 28, 2019 05:50PM)
Screws have been known to kill prisoners accidentally while using force restraining them and to pass it off as suicides. Perhaps the screw broke his neck kneeling on it or something. But I think there would be some evidence of it if anything like that occurred. Cons locked up in cells can still hear things going on even if they cannot see it.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 28, 2019 06:04PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't have to present evidence. I was considering possibilities. In my opinion, not anywhere near impossible, unless one believes that guards are members of some superhuman species which is incorruptible. But again, I don't believe that you believe that.

The medical examiner has issued her report and that's fine. But that's not nearly the whole story yet. And I think it may be quite a time before we know what the story is, which already seems to be changing day by day. I am suggesting that this is not case closed yet, despite the wish for some to have immediate closure. [/quote]

You don't have to present evidence? YET you DEMAND it from others. Do you really mean this? [/quote]

Of course I ask for evidence from others. That's what I pay taxes for.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 28, 2019 06:21PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
...High powered offices were swept-out by other higher powered offices over this affair. [/quote]High powered, swept out, unspecified offices, and affair in just one sentence. Impressive. Bravo!

*
[not for Danny or magicfish - but maybe for Ursula LeGuin, whose story I reframe below]
I suspect the Omlas people have refined this form of entertainment. From her story: "But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas" += Or at least what to bring if they would enjoy adulthood in the city of happiness.
[/not]
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 28, 2019 06:24PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
...High powered offices were swept-out by other higher powered offices over this affair. [/quote]High powered, swept out, unspecified offices, and affair in just one sentence. Impressive. Bravo!

[/quote]

We've been over this politicization:

AG Barr fired the bureau of prisons director over the incident. Trump accuses Clintons of Murder.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 28, 2019 06:43PM)
Hugh Hurwitz was acting director for a year. The previous director, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_S._Inch]Mark Inch[/url] has moved to Florida.
https://www.bop.gov/about/history/timeline.jsp

We return to our regularly scheduled game of vagaries and aliens. :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 06:52PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
...High powered offices were swept-out by other higher powered offices over this affair. [/quote]High powered, swept out, unspecified offices, and affair in just one sentence. Impressive. Bravo!

[/quote]

We've been over this politicization:

AG Barr fired the bureau of prisons director over the incident. Trump accuses Clintons of Murder. [/quote]

People can be incompetent without a conspiracy. It happens all the time.

Trump also accused a former president of not bring born in this country.

I admit it is not as much fun but it is much more likely that it was not a conspiracy.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 28, 2019 08:43PM)
Not nearly as fun. Incidents are hardly ever Watergate, Iran Contra or 911.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 28, 2019 08:57PM)
Even Watergate was not Watergate. And 9/11 was not my idea of fun. I doubt that you meant it was yours either. I was just clarifying before someone actually tried to jump on you for it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 28, 2019 09:29PM)
In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future and normally requires an overt act be undertaken in furtherance of that agreement. For the idiots of today, however, a conspiracy is any critical analysis of any event and Big Foot.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 28, 2019 09:39PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Not nearly as fun. Incidents are hardly ever Watergate, Iran Contra or 911. [/quote]
I'm not following.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 29, 2019 02:20PM)
Still not following...
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 29, 2019 02:21PM)
...couuuuld you tell us how the Sept. 11 attacks were fun?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 29, 2019 02:31PM)
Maybe Fun isn't the right word in your language. How about Juicy?

Some folks enjoy history. Some folks dig conspiracy. Doesn't mean they approve of Hitler or Hijacks.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 29, 2019 08:09PM)
Sooo the murder of 3000 civilians is... juicy?
I think this thread may be coming to an end.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 29, 2019 10:03PM)
Some folks distract from tragedies by inventing vague implausible causes to account for the tragic effects.

The less specific/verifiable - the more distracting.
The more people arguing about detail - the more distracting.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 29, 2019 11:20PM)
[quote]On Aug 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Maybe Fun isn't the right word in your language. How about Juicy?

Some folks enjoy history. Some folks dig conspiracy. Doesn't mean they approve of Hitler or Hijacks. [/quote]

See why I tried to clarify to help you? Whose your buddy?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 29, 2019 11:23PM)
[quote]On Aug 29, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Sooo the murder of 3000 civilians is... juicy?
I think this thread may be coming to an end. [/quote]

No. He chose words poorly is all. He in no way meant to imply the horrible events were fun or juicy. He sinply meant that there are a lot of wacky conspiracies about the event. That is all. It is the way some process things.

He is not saying anything about it was fun. If I'm wrong he can clarify.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 30, 2019 08:17AM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Maybe Fun isn't the right word in your language. How about Juicy?

Some folks enjoy history. Some folks dig conspiracy. Doesn't mean they approve of Hitler or Hijacks. [/quote]

See why I tried to clarify to help you? Whose your buddy? [/quote]

LOL. Danny Nostradamus.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 30, 2019 12:58PM)
16 pages before a Hitler reference.
Not too shabby.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 30, 2019 01:03PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2019, landmark wrote:
I don't have to present evidence. I was considering possibilities. In my opinion, not anywhere near impossible, unless one believes that guards are members of some superhuman species which is incorruptible. But again, I don't believe that you believe that.... [/quote]


Thanks for supporting my Alien/Bigfoot theory. ;)
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Aug 30, 2019 01:22PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, magicfish wrote:
16 pages before a Hitler reference.
Not too shabby. [/quote]

Godwin's law is more reliable than gravity.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 30, 2019 03:23PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, magicfish wrote:
16 pages before a Hitler reference.
Not too shabby. [/quote]

Who made a Hitler reference?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 30, 2019 03:51PM)
Scroll up three or four posts on this page.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 30, 2019 03:52PM)
[quote]On Aug 29, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 29, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Maybe Fun isn't the right word in your language. How about Juicy?

Some folks enjoy history. Some folks dig conspiracy. Doesn't mean they approve of Hitler or Hijacks. [/quote]

See why I tried to clarify to help you? Whose your buddy? [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 30, 2019 03:53PM)
Who is...
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Aug 30, 2019 04:40PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
Who is... [/quote]
See there!

You're getting it!

Bravo!
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Aug 30, 2019 04:46PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
Who is... [/quote]
See there!

You're getting it!

Bravo! [/quote]

Being gun shy, I had to double check...
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 30, 2019 05:47PM)
Who's
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 30, 2019 09:13PM)
Hitler
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 30, 2019 10:19PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
Who is... [/quote]

Yea I'm shocked I would get something like that wrong.

Never even occurred to me after.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 30, 2019 10:20PM)
You gotta say his name three times in a row to make the Godwin effect happen. :realnerdy:

Can we discuss the bubble of fuss around a half billion dollars and sex traficking minors to St. Thomas?
There's a market for this kind of confusion - also called [Url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology]agnotology[/url].
Which may even have trademarks and practitioners if it's not also an internet hoax.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 30, 2019 10:41PM)
[quote]Can we discuss the bubble of fuss around a half billion dollars and sex traficking minors to St. Thomas? [/quote]

Whether the money will be followed, as the saying goes, remains to be seen.

Even a cursory reading of the Wikipedia article on Epstein suggests that Jeffrey Epstein himself might not be the most important part of the story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 30, 2019 10:50PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, landmark wrote:
...might not be the most important... [/quote]Usually the wiki page title or subject identifies the most important part of the wiki page contents - but could you be a little more vague? :)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 31, 2019 12:56AM)
Section "2. Careers" is worth reading.

More comes into focus if you think of Epstein as an employee rather than an employer. Useful services swapped.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 1, 2019 07:15PM)
Georgia man dies in jail while awaiting trial for death of baby found in freezer

https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-dies-awaiting-trail-death-baby-freezer
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (Sep 2, 2019 09:51AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Georgia man dies in jail while awaiting trial for death of baby found in freezer

https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-dies-awaiting-trail-death-baby-freezer [/quote]

A Bigfoot did it. Follow the money. More comes into focus if you think of Bigfoot as an employee rather than an employer. Useful services swapped.

Please don't ask for evidence. The fantasy conspirators in my disordered mind paid enough bribe money or had enough dirt to get everyone to go along and never say anything. For sure in Epstein's case we know that all the prison guards, the prison psychologist, and Epstein's own lawyers were in on the complex plot to murder him or talk him into hanging himself, but they were just the necessary pawns of the don't-ask-me-to-name-them chess masters that dreamed up and executed the plot.

These were the same dark forces that arranged the mysterious death of that Georgia inmate yesterday (STILL no cause of death officially determined, even HOURS after he was found dead in his jail cell) and doctored the national prison and jail suicide records to make inmate suicides seem not that uncommon when the inmate is facing particularly stigmatic charges. I don't know why you all can't see the obvious. We'll likely never know what really happened in Epstein's case or the Georgia infant-killer's case. Same with Jade Helm, 9/11, Chemtrails, all those "moon landings," Vince Foster's "suicide," Obama's actual birthplace, the "round" planets and moons, Justice Scalia's "natural" death, the tapes of those nationally televised celebrations of thousands of New Jersey Muslims on 9/11 that were all nefariously erased, the mysteriously vanished evidence of the U.S. government helping the U.S.-based families of the 9/11 hijackers escape to Saudi Arabia, the fatal "heart attack" suffered by Joe Scarborough's congressional intern in 2001, Pizzagate, the AIDS conspiracy, etc. I can't believe that psychiatrists and psychologists would suggest that my thinking is disordered and ought to be classified as such in the DSM. They must be in the pocket of those dark conspiratorial forces too. Good thing I won't be fooled by science, medicine, uncontroverted fact, logic, or the complete absence of credible contrary evidence. I know a conspiracy when I dream one.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 2, 2019 10:10AM)
I think there is plenty of evidence of an elite nonce ring conspiring to sexually assault children and that Epstein was just one of the conspirators.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 2, 2019 05:09PM)
[quote]On Sep 2, 2019, E.S. Andrews wrote:
[quote]On Sep 1, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Georgia man dies in jail while awaiting trial for death of baby found in freezer

https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-dies-awaiting-trail-death-baby-freezer [/quote]

A Bigfoot did it. Follow the money. More comes into focus if you think of Bigfoot as an employee rather than an employer. Useful services swapped.

Please don't ask for evidence. The fantasy conspirators in my disordered mind paid enough bribe money or had enough dirt to get everyone to go along and never say anything. For sure in Epstein's case we know that all the prison guards, the prison psychologist, and Epstein's own lawyers were in on the complex plot to murder him or talk him into hanging himself, but they were just the necessary pawns of the don't-ask-me-to-name-them chess masters that dreamed up and executed the plot.

These were the same dark forces that arranged the mysterious death of that Georgia inmate yesterday (STILL no cause of death officially determined, even HOURS after he was found dead in his jail cell) and doctored the national prison and jail suicide records to make inmate suicides seem not that uncommon when the inmate is facing particularly stigmatic charges. I don't know why you all can't see the obvious. We'll likely never know what really happened in Epstein's case or the Georgia infant-killer's case. Same with Jade Helm, 9/11, Chemtrails, all those "moon landings," Vince Foster's "suicide," Obama's actual birthplace, the "round" planets and moons, Justice Scalia's "natural" death, the tapes of those nationally televised celebrations of thousands of New Jersey Muslims on 9/11 that were all nefariously erased, the mysteriously vanished evidence of the U.S. government helping the U.S.-based families of the 9/11 hijackers escape to Saudi Arabia, the fatal "heart attack" suffered by Joe Scarborough's congressional intern in 2001, Pizzagate, the AIDS conspiracy, etc. I can't believe that psychiatrists and psychologists would suggest that my thinking is disordered and ought to be classified as such in the DSM. They must be in the pocket of those dark conspiratorial forces too. Good thing I won't be fooled by science, medicine, uncontroverted fact, logic, or the complete absence of credible contrary evidence. I know a conspiracy when I dream one. [/quote]
Lol, you conspiracy theorists really irk me. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to go help O.J. find the real killer.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 4, 2019 10:25AM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, landmark wrote:
Who's [/quote]

Who's on first.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 4, 2019 05:08PM)
Was Epstein attacked or did he attempt suicide the first time? If he attempted suicide then he should never have been taken off suicide watch until all the Drs. were consulted and gave the go ahead .. OR .. Epstein was attacked... In which case he should have been under constant protection from everyone in the prison system. IMHO Epstein was under double jeopardy. He would have gotten off. That's what his lawyers said. He was happy with the news .. NOT SUICIDAL... Epstein was brought in to be silenced. One thing is true … We've lost total control of the prison system. ((Among other things)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 4, 2019 05:51PM)
Well, prisons do not work like that. If a nonce tries to commit suicide then neither the screws nor the cons care. If a nonce gets attacked it is usually the screws that get the cons to do it as they look the other way. One must remember that screws and cons have children.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 4, 2019 08:31PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, Slim King wrote:
Was Epstein attacked or did he attempt suicide the first time? If he attempted suicide then he should never have been taken off suicide watch until all the Drs. were consulted and gave the go ahead .. OR .. Epstein was attacked... In which case he should have been under constant protection from everyone in the prison system. IMHO Epstein was under double jeopardy. He would have gotten off. That's what his lawyers said. He was happy with the news .. NOT SUICIDAL... Epstein was brought in to be silenced. One thing is true … We've lost total control of the prison system. ((Among other things) [/quote]
...they did give the go ahead.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 4, 2019 08:47PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...they did give the go ahead. [/quote]What was the signal and who was involved in sending that signal?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 4, 2019 08:56PM)
Signal?
Please tell me what on earth you are talking about.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 4, 2019 08:58PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...the go ahead. [/quote]That signal.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 4, 2019 08:59PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, Slim King wrote:
Was Epstein attacked or did he attempt suicide the first time? If he attempted suicide then he should never have been taken off suicide watch until all the Drs. were consulted and gave the go ahead .. OR .. Epstein was attacked... In which case he should have been under constant protection from everyone in the prison system. IMHO Epstein was under double jeopardy. He would have gotten off. That's what his lawyers said. He was happy with the news .. NOT SUICIDAL... Epstein was brought in to be silenced. One thing is true … We've lost total control of the prison system. ((Among other things) [/quote]

His cellmate was cleared. But let me guess you have a theory?

You use words like double jeopardy. What do you understand them to mean? If jeopardy had attached then going after him at all, no matter how heinous the crime, is something that should scare everyone.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 4, 2019 11:41PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...the go ahead. [/quote]That signal. [/quote]
... signal? Please tell me what on earth you are talking about. There was no signal.
As stated earlier and often, the psychologist assessing Eipstein took him off suicide watch.
What signal are you talking about?
And please, don't give me a stupid riddle.
Just answer me.
Or don't.
Jes#s Chr-st it's like talking to a homeless drunk.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 5, 2019 07:36AM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, Slim King wrote:
[snip]... Epstein was brought in to be silenced. One thing is true … We've lost total control of the prison system. ((Among other things) [/quote]
...they did give the go ahead. [/quote]
Usually, the phrase "go ahead", refers to a signal of some sort. Though if you meant something else please interpret my questions as - [i]huh, what do you mean by go ahead?[/i]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 5, 2019 10:01AM)
More like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kwh3R0YjuQ
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 5, 2019 10:42AM)
Cough cough chest to drawers... fun Python sketch. (What's it like?)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 5, 2019 11:10AM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 4, 2019, Slim King wrote:
[snip]... Epstein was brought in to be silenced. One thing is true … We've lost total control of the prison system. ((Among other things) [/quote]
...they did give the go ahead. [/quote]
Usually, the phrase "go ahead", refers to a signal of some sort. Though if you meant something else please interpret my questions as - [i]huh, what do you mean by go ahead?[/i] [/quote]
Cute riddle. Sorry, for the homeless drunk comment, I was a tad frustrated.
Now, there is/was no signal.
Giving the go ahead is an expression used to mean someone has approved it. Usually a signature but sometimes verbal.
Why am I explaining this?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 5, 2019 11:20AM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, magicfish wrote:
I was a tad frustrated.
Now, there is/was no signal. [/quote]no problem :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 5, 2019 11:59AM)
The go-ahead is a signal to proceed whereas given the nod is a signal of approval.



:)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 5, 2019 12:01PM)
Jonathan why do you talk as if you think your knowledge is so coveted you have to dispense it in silly riddles everyone has to decipher that only you understand? Just use English. It would be so much easier for those of us mere mortals.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 5, 2019 12:06PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, tommy wrote:
The go-ahead is a signal to proceed whereas given the nod is a signal of approval.



:) [/quote]

Not always.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyo0v-T4Ues

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA02GZLHd8M
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 5, 2019 12:23PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jonathan why do you talk as if you think your knowledge is so coveted you have to dispense it in silly riddles everyone has to decipher that only you understand? Just use English. It would be so much easier for those of us mere mortals. [/quote]

They are not riddles; they are obscure-references.
Plenty of folks hate Dennis Miller.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 5, 2019 12:40PM)
It fluctuates between the riddles and references. And the references are not entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 5, 2019 01:16PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It fluctuates between the riddles and references. And the references are not entertaining. [/quote]

The great glut of entertainment & information options available to The Moderns left them unable to communicate or commiserate over commonalities.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 5, 2019 01:26PM)
Fiction is entertaining and facts are boring.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 5, 2019 01:59PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, tommy wrote:
Fiction is entertaining and facts are boring. [/quote]

Ain't that a fact.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 5, 2019 03:52PM)
Except when the facts prove that which is known to be fiction is fact.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 5, 2019 10:16PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It fluctuates between the riddles and references. And the references are not entertaining. [/quote]

The great glut of entertainment & information options available to The Moderns left them unable to communicate or commiserate over commonalities. [/quote]

Great it is contagious apparently.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Sep 6, 2019 05:10AM)
Stepping, for a second,
outside the tunnel of discusion;
I have to say:
I really enjoy the last page of dialogue!

Really great!

Thanks.

Jonathan, a pat on the shoulder.
I especially appreciate your expression of thought.
It slows me down.
,..but it's worth the moment.

Mr. Salk, Tommy,...your Humour,...bravo!
On a thread about suicide, murder(?), international intrigue,...great.

Danny,..always "in-the-face",..to the point.
...with a touch of salty witz.

Magicfish,..you love looking from around corners,
from back alleys,
....👍

It's a good read.
A good mix.
I appreciate it.
Thanks.
gallagher
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 6, 2019 08:03AM)
Grim and ironic humour in a desperate or hopeless situation is called gallows humour. Perhaps he was in a desperate or hopeless situation, lost his sense of humour and paid the price.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 6, 2019 12:09PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jonathan why do you talk as if you think your knowledge is so coveted you have to dispense it in silly riddles everyone has to decipher that only you understand? Just use English. It would be so much easier for those of us mere mortals. [/quote]
He
They are not riddles; they are obscure-references.
Plenty of folks hate Dennis Miller. [/quote]
No. Sorry. Not buying it. There is zero common ground between Miller's relatively obscure references and Jonathon's indecipherable word salad.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 6, 2019 12:34PM)
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
...The great glut of entertainment & information options available to The Moderns left them unable to communicate or commiserate over commonalities. [/quote]Is that your writing? It reads like something from England, following from Swift's Battle of the Books, but it's not quoted, followed by a citation, or linked to a source.

Back on topic, is Lolita Express history dismissed into lore? Are the half billion dollars cleaned of impropriety?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 6, 2019 01:13PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jonathan why do you talk as if you think your knowledge is so coveted you have to dispense it in silly riddles everyone has to decipher that only you understand? Just use English. It would be so much easier for those of us mere mortals. [/quote]
He
They are not riddles; they are obscure-references.
Plenty of folks hate Dennis Miller. [/quote]
No. Sorry. Not buying it. There is zero common ground between Miller's relatively obscure references and Jonathon's indecipherable word salad. [/quote]

Jonathon at least cited his reference (Monty Python). Unless you thought it was a snake reference?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 6, 2019 01:18PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
...The great glut of entertainment & information options available to The Moderns left them unable to communicate or commiserate over commonalities. [/quote]Is that your writing? It reads like something from England, following from Swift's Battle of the Books, but it's not quoted, followed by a citation, or linked to a source.

Back on topic, is Lolita Express history dismissed into lore? Are the half billion dollars cleaned of impropriety? [/quote]

I penned it, and am a bit of a Swiftian (Jonathon not Taylor).
This thread has backed into a darker corner than Humbert Humbert.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 6, 2019 01:39PM)
We were going on about "go ahead" - [quote]On Sep 5, 2019, tommy wrote:
More like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kwh3R0YjuQ [/quote]The sketch ends with the guy asking "what's it like?" - :cry: apt in this discussion. :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 6, 2019 02:26PM)
Dark? it's so solipsised* a discussion of a half billion dollars and a plutocratic child sex trafficking circus derailed into... No. A better image might be those lizards which can drop their tails.

*here's the actual text from Nabokov: [quote]Lolita had been safely solipsized. The implied sun pulsated in the supplied poplars; we were fantastically and divinely alone; I watched her, rosy, gold-dusted, beyond the veil of my controlled delight, unaware of it, alien to it, and the sun was on her lips, and her lips were apparently still forming the words of the Carmen-barmen ditty' that no longer reached my consciousness.[/quote] - i.e. she had no idea what Humbert had just experienced. The author most likely succeeds in seducing the reader into sympathizing with H. H. Of course it's safe since there's a sanitizing prologue and a nice essay by the author at the end.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 6, 2019 07:03PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Jonathan why do you talk as if you think your knowledge is so coveted you have to dispense it in silly riddles everyone has to decipher that only you understand? Just use English. It would be so much easier for those of us mere mortals. [/quote]
He
They are not riddles; they are obscure-references.
Plenty of folks hate Dennis Miller. [/quote]
No. Sorry. Not buying it. There is zero common ground between Miller's relatively obscure references and Jonathon's indecipherable word salad. [/quote]

Jonathon at least cited his reference (Monty Python). Unless you thought it was a snake reference? [/quote]
The reference is inaccurate.
Perhaps you (and Jonathon) need to brush up on your comedy references.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 6, 2019 09:05PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, magicfish wrote:

The reference is inaccurate.
Perhaps you (and Jonathon) need to brush up on your comedy references. [/quote]

I'm not the biggest python-head but the references are from classic sketches. Feel free to debate the meaning of innuendo.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 6, 2019 09:09PM)
My mention of "chest - drawers" was incorrect ([url=http://www.montypython.net/scripts/tobacco.php]wrong sketch[/url]).

The reference to "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean... (what's it like)" seems apt.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 6, 2019 09:44PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, magicfish wrote:

The reference is inaccurate.
Perhaps you (and Jonathon) need to brush up on your comedy references. [/quote]

I'm not the biggest python-head but the references are from classic sketches. Feel free to debate the meaning of innuendo. [/quote]
Inaccurate as I said, and as Jon admits.
Salk...snake...hmmmm
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 6, 2019 09:46PM)
[quote]On Sep 6, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
My mention of "chest - drawers" was incorrect ([url=http://www.montypython.net/scripts/tobacco.php]wrong sketch[/url]).

The reference to "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean... (what's it like)" seems apt. [/quote]
Not only the wrong sketch but totally inaccurate. You wrote "chest to drawers".
It is "chest of drawers".
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 6, 2019 09:58PM)
Don't get so hung up on propositions and sources of innuendo. Get the drift.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 6, 2019 10:27PM)
If ur gonna chirp ya gotta know ur stuff son.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 6, 2019 10:31PM)
Pretentious pseudo-intellectual word salad crumbles quickly when you encounter someone who actually knows and calls your bluff.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2019 02:08AM)
Was that Foghorn Leghorn talking to the little chickenhawk? +10 for thoughtful, Epstein relevant, allusion if so. I miss those cartoons on TV.

The python banter...referring to this line:
Customer: (long think, goes to door, looks at ads again) Chest of drawers? [i]Chest. Drawers.[/i] I'd like some chest of drawers please.
Dismissed the reference to prostitution and went for typography. [url=http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Meaning_of_Life/4.htm]Really impressed down here I can tell you.[/url] Text from an online lookup gets linked. There's nothing pseudo about that courtesy.

The word "salad" as bait for ... nope, but it was tempting. Word salad is not about ideas or thinking. There's no attempt to persuade, argue from authority, or compel an action from this side so what's to crumble?

[not for danny]
Landru :whatever:
[/not for danny]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 7, 2019 10:26AM)
A rationalist is one who follows reason and not authority in thought or speculation. It may well be the Medias job to keep us thinking that there are authorities out there, figuring out, how to get us out of the mess they have got us into but why would you argue from it?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 7, 2019 06:37PM)
I suppose Brock could've asked the same of Tecumseh, but would we have held Niagara?
Headstone inequality anyone?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 7, 2019 08:49PM)
[quote]On Sep 7, 2019, tommy wrote:
...Medias [ snip] argue from it? [/quote]Just checking the subject and verb in that sentence - to argue from media as presented?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 7, 2019 09:08PM)
I have it on good authority that Tecumseh Epstein’s friends call him Bubba.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 8, 2019 07:09AM)
You can be the mommy, or you can be the daddy.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 8, 2019 08:39AM)
Billionaire "philanthropy":

https://dianeravitch.net/2019/09/08/new-yorker-did-jeffrey-epstein-sexual-predator-persuade-bill-gates-to-donate-2-million-to-mit-media-lab/
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 8, 2019 10:06AM)
Grants come with conditions: we will give you grant so long as you promote the global warming scam and so on. There is nothing new about the way that works. See the Rockefeller Foundation.

Grants or bribery, whether you are giving or taking money for corrupted services, the way I see it is, what’s the difference?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 17, 2019 06:47PM)
Some say gaol.

"I will content myself now with passing upon you the sentence of the law, which is, that you be taken hence to the gaol …; and that you be taken thence to a place of execution and be there hanged by the neck until you be dead; and that your body be afterwards buried within the precincts of the prison in which you shall be last confined after your conviction; and may the Lord have mercy upon your soul."
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 20, 2019 12:15PM)
I'd like to see proof that someone can kill themselves in the manner described. That's all .. Just a little proof. Guards were sleeping. Camera's weren't working. Room mate was gone.... His lawyers had just told him he was getting off. Double jeopardy … Last time they caught him he slept in a jail in the evenings and was free all day .. For just over a year … Hell that's almost what I do every night .. Sleep... I'd like to see some proof.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Sep 20, 2019 12:27PM)
[quote]On Sep 20, 2019, Slim King wrote:
I'd like to see proof that someone can kill themselves in the manner described.[/quote]
Who would you propose be the one to kill themselves in the manner described?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 20, 2019 12:29PM)
How about YOU show some proof that it didn't happen that way? You have nothing but your ridiculous CSI education. If you want to make the assertion then prove it.

Just because you can't keep up dosn't mean it is not true.

And just to be clear, anyone with enough money not only to pull this off but also keep everyone quiet would have waited to do this until he was free and in his home. It would have been far easier to "suicide " someone in their home with no scrutiny than in a public jail. Oops.

Don't let something like a little common sense get in the way of conspiracy theories. Keep going by all means.

Bill I suggest the conspiracy theorists volunteer.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 20, 2019 01:51PM)
Screws have been known to "accidentally" strangle cons to death while trying to retrain them. We all seen people being wrestled to the ground in a chokehold by the cops and dying. That is one possibility. I am quite sure he committed suicide, however.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Sep 20, 2019 02:00PM)
[quote]On Sep 20, 2019, tommy wrote:
I am quite sure he committed suicide, however.[/quote]
Bless you, child.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 20, 2019 04:14PM)
[quote]On Sep 20, 2019, Slim King wrote:
I'd like to see proof that someone can kill themselves in the manner described. [/quote]

Manner described? I think you can probably find ample evidence that wrapping things tightly around the neck often results in death.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 20, 2019 04:24PM)
Doing that could certainly break a dead man's neck.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Sep 20, 2019 04:36PM)
[quote]On Sep 20, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 20, 2019, Slim King wrote:
I'd like to see proof that someone can kill themselves in the manner described. [/quote]
Manner described? I think you can probably find ample evidence that wrapping things tightly around the neck often results in death.[/quote]
Tell Slim that; I'm already convinced.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 22, 2019 11:30PM)
He hung himself from the bed frame that was less than 2 feet high … ?????? That's their story.....
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 23, 2019 01:13AM)
If he was going to inform on the elite paedophile gang in exchange for bail and a light sentence, then the elite paedophile gang would have a motive to kill him before he informed on them and got out on bail.

In any event, one is dead but the elite paedophile gang are still on the loose.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 23, 2019 02:00AM)
"Double jeopardy" is a procedural defence that prevents an accused person from being tried again on the same (or similar) charges and on the same facts.

What "No bail when jeopardy attaches." means I do not know.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 23, 2019 10:24AM)
It means there would be no need for bail if he was going free anyhow because of jeopardy attaching. You don't have to post bail if jeopardy is the case. You are just free to leave.

So if "double jeopardy" applies nobody has to post bail. So if in Slims world he was going free on that provision why would anyone kill him? He would simply be a free man. Killing him actually brings attention to them if they would have.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 23, 2019 04:58PM)
I thought that Slim meant that Epstein was expecting to win the case at trial with a double jeopardy defence. I don’t think Slim mentioned bail.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Sep 23, 2019 05:19PM)
[quote]On Sep 23, 2019, tommy wrote:
I thought that Slim meant . . . .[/quote]
There's your error, right there.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 23, 2019 09:08PM)
Why take a chance? Well, that’s the way I feel about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka7hSZhgplk