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Topic: 9/11
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Sep 11, 2019 12:53AM)
We will never forget.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Sep 11, 2019 06:48AM)
Amen Arthur! May God Bless those families that lost loved ones that terrible day.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 11, 2019 12:31PM)
It won't be forgotten, but it may be relegated to student-history with Pearl Harbor and D-day.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 11, 2019 04:15PM)
History is a relegation?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 11, 2019 04:27PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, magicfish wrote:
History is a relegation? [/quote]

In 20 years it's just another chapter.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Sep 11, 2019 05:07PM)
Hard to believe that the children who were born that day are now old enough to vote. I was a school bus driver at the time and when I picked the kids up (Grade School) they were asking all kinds of questions based on rumors they heard in the school. I remained as professional as I could and just told them "something bad happened today but you should not listen to rumors. Instead, ask your parents when you get home". I got no complaints against me where several drivers did. That was the easy part though. That night, my wife and I had to talk to our grade school children about it.

I don't know if it was part of his decision to serve although I would be willing to bet it was. My son currently serves in the U.S.Navy and has since he graduated high school in 2011.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 11, 2019 06:36PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, magicfish wrote:
History is a relegation? [/quote]

In 20 years it's just another chapter. [/quote]Once upon a time people could travel by airplane without taking off their shoes.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 11, 2019 11:13PM)
Once upon a time in America, a man with a black hairy back was not thrown in a dungeon, not tortured and not given a fair trial for 20 years and now the black hairs on his back have turned white.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 12, 2019 08:43AM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, magicfish wrote:
History is a relegation? [/quote]

In 20 years it's just another chapter. [/quote]
History is history if it happened 20 years ago or 10 000 years ago.
How is it a relegation?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 12, 2019 09:03AM)
History is a written selective story: details, motivations, experiences, context, lies, lost, distorted.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2019 09:51AM)
History is written by the winners. Well at least until the advent of the Internet that was true.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 12, 2019 12:13PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, tommy wrote:
Once upon a time in America, a man with a black hairy back was not thrown in a dungeon, not tortured and not given a fair trial for 20 years and now the black hairs on his back have turned white. [/quote]

Are you referring to DJ Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the Pakistani Islamist militant held by the United States at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp under terrorism-related charges, and named as "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks" in the 9/11 Commission Report?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 12, 2019 12:53PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
History is written by the winners. Well at least until the advent of the Internet that was true. [/quote]

Yes, and keep an eye out for the current trend of Facebook, Twitter, Google results to censor the news in the name of "protecting us" from fake news. Even the Pentagon has announced they want to get in on the act of telling us what is true or not.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2019 02:38PM)
What current trend? Rewriting history has been a favorite pass time for historians for a long time now.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 12, 2019 07:07PM)
Went to a concert last night in an arena. Nary even a mention of the date. Sadly, I’d say that is relegated.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Sep 12, 2019 09:42PM)
Curious to know which artist(s) performed, Tom?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 12, 2019 09:52PM)
John Mayer
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Sep 12, 2019 09:58PM)
If that's true, then that would make perfect sense.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 13, 2019 07:41AM)
Harmony in a place of combat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQrE8vOM0ss
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 13, 2019 09:36AM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, arthur stead wrote:
Curious to know which artist(s) performed, Tom? [/quote]
Cake and Ben Folds.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 13, 2019 12:28PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, arthur stead wrote:
Curious to know which artist(s) performed, Tom? [/quote]
Cake and Ben Folds. [/quote]

I'm not too surprised. Concerts are fun and 9/11 is a downer. Especially for audience members who weren't born yet.
Imagine Duran Duran in the 80's taking a moment of silence for the Kennedy assassination.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 13, 2019 12:38PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
9/11 is a downer. Especially for audience members who weren't born yet. [/quote]
That is exactly why it needs to not be ignored.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 02:41PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, arthur stead wrote:
Curious to know which artist(s) performed, Tom? [/quote]
Cake and Ben Folds. [/quote]

I'm not too surprised. Concerts are fun and 9/11 is a downer. Especially for audience members who weren't born yet.
Imagine Duran Duran in the 80's taking a moment of silence for the Kennedy assassination. [/quote]

Yea. Also I think time and place matter and you sort of imply it is not the time and place. I pretty much agree.

Does anyone announce Pearl Harbor any more? Heck most kids don't even know the date that will "live in infamy".

I am not saying it is right or wrong, but people do move on.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 03:36PM)
Sure. But I don't consider it a relegation.
We have to move on, but we must never forget.
Not Pearl Harbor, not 9/11, not the Rape of Nanking (various spellings...sooo many spellings) not The Battle of Britain, not Hiroshima, not the Battle of Hastings.
All extremely important historical events.
History is never a relegation.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 13, 2019 03:54PM)
“If we learn nothing else from this tragedy, we learn that life is short and there is no time for hate.”
~ Sandy Dahl, wife of Flight 93 pilot Jason Dahl
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 04:28PM)
Ok when was The Alamo? When was The Maine attacked? The first World Trade Center bombing? You do know there was more than one bombing right? Just how much and for how long do I need to remember, and why?

What about the days WE attack others for no reason? Do you want THEM to remember? When they do we use words like "fanatic" to describe them. Hardly seems fair.

Why remember? To keep ourselves vigilant? To get even? To stay angry? To keep historical perspective and perhaps learn from it?

Again I'm not taking a position, just asking questions is all.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 13, 2019 05:38PM)
1993: A Cautionary Tale

https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2013/eirv40n18-20130503/23-30_4018.pdf
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 05:43PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ok when was The Alamo? When was The Maine attacked? The first World Trade Center bombing? You do know there was more than one bombing right? Just how much and for how long do I need to remember, and why?

What about the days WE attack others for no reason? Do you want THEM to remember? When they do we use words like "fanatic" to describe them. Hardly seems fair.

Why remember? To keep ourselves vigilant? To get even? To stay angry? To keep historical perspective and perhaps learn from it?

Again I'm not taking a position, just asking questions is all. [/quote]
I think we as a people need to remember forever- not the dates necessarily, just the event. And if we forget we can remind ourselves by reading about them.
I think history is an important subject.
Just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 05:58PM)
Why?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 13, 2019 06:25PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
I think we as a people need to remember forever- not the dates necessarily, just the event. And if we forget we can remind ourselves by reading about them.
I think history is an important subject.
Just my opinion. [/quote]

I'm echoing Danny here. As a Middle-aged Midwest Millworker, why is remembering The Lusitania important?
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 13, 2019 07:36PM)
Why; because those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

You might as well ask, “Why visit the grave site of your parents? Move on, get over it.” “Why remember your children killed protecting their country?” “Why remember a fallen officer?”

If all you have is questions, you should probably reflect on your questions until you have your own answers.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 07:48PM)
I am not saying to forget. I am asking why remember.

Tom those are ALL very good reasons. BUT if revenge is a reason to remember then maybe it is not such a good thing.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 08:00PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
I think we as a people need to remember forever- not the dates necessarily, just the event. And if we forget we can remind ourselves by reading about them.
I think history is an important subject.
Just my opinion. [/quote]

I'm echoing Danny here. As a Middle-aged Midwest Millworker, why is remembering The Lusitania important? [/quote]
What caused it? Who was on board, how did she go down. We learn from the past.
In the Nuclear Industry we call it OPEX, or, Operating Experience. By studying past experiences, from a pinched finger to a dropped object, to 3 Mile Island, we help keep ourselves, and each other safe.
It's the same reason we study crash sites.
The Lusitania is extremely important.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Sep 13, 2019 08:09PM)
Context matters...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 13, 2019 08:14PM)
Context only matters to those who can affect change. Sometimes. Nobody had forgotten about Germany when WW2 started.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 08:21PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
I think we as a people need to remember forever- not the dates necessarily, just the event. And if we forget we can remind ourselves by reading about them.
I think history is an important subject.
Just my opinion. [/quote]

I'm echoing Danny here. As a Middle-aged Midwest Millworker, why is remembering The Lusitania important? [/quote]
What caused it? Who was on board, how did she go down. We learn from the past.
In the Nuclear Industry we call it OPEX, or, Operating Experience. By studying past experiences, from a pinched finger to a dropped object, to 3 Mile Island, we help keep ourselves, and each other safe.
It's the same reason we study crash sites.
The Lusitania is extremely important. [/quote]

We don't revere crash sites. Those who can change things to make them better study them. Big difference.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 08:44PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
I think we as a people need to remember forever- not the dates necessarily, just the event. And if we forget we can remind ourselves by reading about them.
I think history is an important subject.
Just my opinion. [/quote]

I'm echoing Danny here. As a Middle-aged Midwest Millworker, why is remembering The Lusitania important? [/quote]
What caused it? Who was on board, how did she go down. We learn from the past.
In the Nuclear Industry we call it OPEX, or, Operating Experience. By studying past experiences, from a pinched finger to a dropped object, to 3 Mile Island, we help keep ourselves, and each other safe.
It's the same reason we study crash sites.
The Lusitania is extremely important. [/quote]

We don't revere crash sites. Those who can change things to make them better study them. Big difference. [/quote]
I'm not following Danny. Of course we don't revere crash sites. Is someone here revering a historical event that I missed?
We can change things to make them better by studying them. You are correct.
Crash sites, battle formations, bridge foundations, etc. Or we can study them to figure out how to prevent them from happening again. Nuclear meltdowns, Commercial Airline hijackings, military coups, etc.
I get the feeling you don't like history?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 08:51PM)
I absolutely do like history.

I do not like remembering for revenge. Certainly you see the difference. I just am not explaining well.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 13, 2019 08:51PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites. [/quote]
Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 09:01PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I absolutely do like history.

I do not like remembering for revenge. Certainly you see the difference. I just am not explaining well. [/quote]
Oh ok. I'm not sure where the revenge comes into play. I don't like the sound of remembering for revenge either.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 09:10PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I absolutely do like history.

I do not like remembering for revenge. Certainly you see the difference. I just am not explaining well. [/quote]
Oh ok. I'm not sure where the revenge comes into play. I don't like the sound of remembering for revenge either. [/quote]

OK now we are getting somewhere. Good.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 13, 2019 09:12PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites. [/quote]
Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives. [/quote]
It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Sep 13, 2019 09:12PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Context only matters to those who can affect change. Sometimes. Nobody had forgotten about Germany when WW2 started. [/quote]


Context matters in the frame of reference. Events that occured prior to someone being born does not carry the same weight to those who experienced it; or remember before the world 'changed'.

To me, the Lusitania isn't [i]extremely important[/i]. Not to say it doesn't matter but for my frame of reference is a historical event.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 09:47PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I absolutely do like history.

I do not like remembering for revenge. Certainly you see the difference. I just am not explaining well. [/quote]
Oh ok. I'm not sure where the revenge comes into play. I don't like the sound of remembering for revenge either. [/quote]

OK now we are getting somewhere. Good. [/quote]
But I'm a tad confused as to where the revenge thing came from?
Did someone here suggest we need to remember history so we can take revenge?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 09:53PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Context only matters to those who can affect change. Sometimes. Nobody had forgotten about Germany when WW2 started. [/quote]


Context matters in the frame of reference. Events that occured prior to someone being born does not carry the same weight to those who experienced it; or remember before the world 'changed'.

To me, the Lusitania isn't [i]extremely important[/i]. Not to say it doesn't matter but for my frame of reference is a historical event. [/quote]
To me it is extremely important (sorry, can't do italics). Perhaps even more so than to some who were alive somewhere in the world at that time, say a Dinka Tribesman or a Maori leader.
Just guessing.
Your statement, "Events that occured prior to someone being born does not carry the same weight to those who experienced it;" is simply untrue in all circumstances.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 13, 2019 09:57PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK now we are getting somewhere. Good. [/quote]
But I'm a tad confused as to where the revenge thing came from?
Did someone here suggest we need to remember history so we can take revenge? [/quote]
It came up [i]as a negative example[/i] of motivation and perspective. The pendulum description of historical motivations can be heard on the nightly news as actions taken "in response to" or "in retaliation for".

One day a line starting "don't make me..." will cue laughter rather than expectations of bad behavior.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Sep 13, 2019 09:58PM)
How is it untrue? Seeing that it rings true for myself.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 10:01PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK now we are getting somewhere. Good. [/quote]
But I'm a tad confused as to where the revenge thing came from?
Did someone here suggest we need to remember history so we can take revenge? [/quote]
It came up [i]as a negative example[/i] of motivation and perspective. The pendulum description of historical motivations can be heard on the nightly news as actions taken "in response to" or "in retaliation for".

One day a line starting "don't make me..." will cue laughter rather than expectations of bad behavior. [/quote]
Could you cut and paste it from this thread?
I scrolled but couldn't find it.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 10:05PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:
How is it untrue? Seeing that it rings true for myself. [/quote]
It is untrue because it would be impossible in every case.
The discovery of insulin might be extremely important to my cousin but perhaps wasnt so much for the local guitar player at the time.
Things can be more important to us historically today than to those who experienced it.
Happens with artists and sculptors quite a bit.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 13, 2019 10:06PM)
Some of the most celebrated artists of our time died broke and unknown.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 13, 2019 11:09PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
...
Why remember? To keep ourselves vigilant? [i]To get even?[/i] To stay angry? To keep historical perspective and perhaps learn from it?

Again I'm not taking a position, just asking questions is all. [/quote]Mentioned in the form of a question.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 14, 2019 12:51AM)
Having survived learning a lesson we record the story. This leaves concise guides to difficult learning that get copied and kept at great expense over centuries. History is not a chanted collection of facts we hold more dear than "four legs good, two legs better". Unfortunately human nature puts some significant obstacles in the way of learning [i]from[/i] our past. Here are a few of those obstacles:
Force of habit or custom does not easily change. The argument goes something like: what was good enough for your parents and their parents is not so good to talk about changing. Call it a normative force or social inertia.
We actively defend our sense of personal consistency at great expense. The old advertisement about "I'd rather fight than switch" met with approval at the time. Not so many folks found it funny and quipped: "oh, how about quit?".
We simplify our narratives to establish "good guys and bad guys" stories. We do that by selectively ignoring facts. This gets its own listing as the relevant facts were presented plainly in our newspapers and available in archives.
We tend to confuse a sizable collection of facts with a cogent argument. Recall the advertisement stating "nine out of ten dentist agree...". Associated symptoms include deception with numbers/graphs, correlations from biased data, politicized science funding... that's not the law of large numbers but it may as well be.

* And yet somehow we manage to create sublime artworks and astounding engineering feats. Remember which way is north! Never forget how to make fire!

[not for danny]
Is there a social parallel to Newton's laws of motion?
[/not for danny]
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Sep 14, 2019 09:05AM)
Umm..dentists? Compasses? Fire? Newton's not for Danny?
I'm trying. I really am.
Unfortunately I have to give up and move forward because I don't have time to sit alone with pencil and paper to try to figure out what you're saying. I wish you wouldnt make it so difficult.
I'm genuinely interested in your opinions.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 14, 2019 03:39PM)
Americans who do not revere, that is to say, stand in awe of, fear, respect, the 9/11 terrorists, either do not believe the official narrative, or they do not understand the meaning of 'love thine enemy'. It is difficult but one must give the enemy its due. If not you will not know your enemy and so never beat them. You have to think of it from the enemies point of view, get into their heads. What is the use of hating your enemy?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Sep 14, 2019 04:21PM)
"Love thine enemy, so that yee shall get into their heads to exploit weaknesses and destroy them." ~Jesus
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 14, 2019 05:40PM)
"Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." -Sun Tzu and the Corleone.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 14, 2019 07:15PM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites. [/quote]
Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives. [/quote]
It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration. [/quote]

Yes, it is. Please tell us why you brought the word revere into this discussion?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 14, 2019 07:54PM)
Please tell us also, how can those who can change things study what they have forgotten?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 14, 2019 11:50PM)
[quote]On Sep 14, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites. [/quote]
Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives. [/quote]
It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration. [/quote]

Yes, it is. Please tell us why you brought the word revere into this discussion? [/quote]

Why did you bring in commemoration?

I'm not getting into a petty back and forth.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 15, 2019 01:06AM)
Agreed we don't often make memorials of crash sites. Some may get flowers or a picture but not so many remain decorated and attended after a decade (1).

How do we choose which stories and events to remember? Part of this may be about how to distinguish friend from foe when meeting strangers, our shibboleths (2).

I believe learning from the past is difficult. Aspects of human nature and our society make change more difficult. These include:
i) As an individual or as a society people will do as they have unless acted upon by a an external agency, be it natural or narrative. People don't want to appear inconsistent. Faced with a challenge, increased costs, or a novel choice we turn to habit (3).
ii) The cost of change includes opportunity costs and risk assurances.
iii) Social narratives involving change include an equal and opposite external agency (4).

But how to argue for change? Facts and ideas are not persuasive. They may be educational but arguing cause for change works better from commonly held notions and values. (5)




********************************
1 A friend lost his father to a hit and run at a crosswalk in NYC. The next day there was nothing there at all to recall the event. More recently a neighbor's child was hit by a car on a small suburban road, right in front of the family house. The child spent the next year in casts and bone braces recovering. The town would not put up a stop sign. The family would keep watch whenever the kids went out to play - staring down any drivers who might endanger their children. The family down the road started putting up signs when their kids went out to play.

2 From how to pronounce a word to lines from the dialogue "who's on first", cartoons, movies, and these days also the baby shark song...

3 That tendency toward habit is a survival trait. From "don't rock the boat" to "better the devil you know" there's much wisdom in cautions against change. There was as cigarette advertisement showing a smoker with a black eye. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_Tareyton_smokers_would_rather_fight_than_switch!

4 Good guys to follow and bad guys to blame. It gets interesting when someone goes from hero to villain. Rather than irritate those who lost loved ones on 9/11/01, let's go look at Pearl Harbor's day of infamy. Here's a date a few months earlier that folks don't seem to recall too easily: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/united-states-freezes-japanese-assets [quote]On July 24, Tokyo decided to strengthen its position in terms of its invasion of China by moving through Southeast Asia. Given that France had long occupied parts of the region, and Germany, a Japanese ally, now controlled most of France through Petain’s puppet government, France “agreed” to the occupation of its Indo-China colonies. Japan followed up by occupying Cam Ranh naval base, 800 miles from the Philippines, where Americans had troops, and the British base at Singapore.

President Roosevelt swung into action by freezing all Japanese assets in America. Britain and the Dutch East Indies followed suit. The result: Japan lost access to three-fourths of its overseas trade and 88 percent of its imported oil. [/quote] A second opinion on the matter here: https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/INTA4803TP/Articles/Oil%20Logistics%20in%20the%20Pacific%20War=Donovan.pdf

5 As tactfully put by Aristotle in his book on Rhetoric: Rhetoric is useful because things that are true and things that are just have a natural tendency to prevail over their opposites, so that if the decisions of judges are not what they ought to be, the defeat must be due to the speakers themselves, and they must be blamed accordingly. Moreover, before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. [b]For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.[/b]
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 15, 2019 01:47AM)
[quote]On Sep 14, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 14, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:

We don't revere crash sites. [/quote]
Who is “we”. Ever see a roadside commemoration, usually a cross and flowers placed at a fatal crash site on its anniversary? The 9/11 memorial sites? (Admittedly a bit on the semantic side).

Different cultures have different ways to commemorate their passed relatives. [/quote]
It is definitely on the semantic side. Revering is different from commemoration. [/quote]

Yes, it is. Please tell us why you brought the word revere into this discussion? [/quote]

Why did you bring in commemoration?

I'm not getting into a petty back and forth. [/quote]

It’s not a petty back and forth. You brought up “revere” and I am interested to know why you chose that word.

Why I chose commemorate, because I believe that is what one does when one honors such events.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 15, 2019 04:33AM)
[quote]On Sep 13, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
Why; because those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. [/quote]To chirp "infamy" or "911" on cue does not demonstrate [i]learning from[/i] history. The line about forgetting history is from chapter twelve, along with "instinctive reaction, like a bird's chirp". [url=https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15000/15000-h/15000-h.htm]Same book, chapter five[/url] [quote]A man half-asleep, without fixed purposes, without intellectual keenness or joy in recognition, might graze about like an animal, forgetting each satisfaction in the next and banishing from his frivolous mind the memory of every sorrow; what had just failed to kill him would leave him as thoughtless and unconcerned as if it had never crossed his path. Such irrational elasticity and innocent improvidence would never put two and two together. Every morning there would be a new world with the same fool to live in it. But let some sobering passion, some serious interest, lend perspective to the mind, and a point of reference will immediately be given for protracted observation; then the laws of nature will begin to dawn upon thought. Every experiment will become a lesson, every event will be remembered as favourable or unfavourable to the master-passion. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Sep 15, 2019 07:06AM)
[quote]On Sep 15, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
To chirp "infamy" or "911" on cue does not demonstrate [i]learning from[/i] history.
[/quote]
I didn’t say it did.

To that point, I would agree that some powers would weaponize memory of certain events. Such makes it all that more important that others show a respectful commemoration for the lives lost and what that might speak to us as human beings, not weapons of the state, or haters of a fate.

So let me be clear, I didn’t say such events should be revered. Nor did I say such events require that people fall in step and chip a battle cry. Those who brought up such concerns would add to the conversation by explaining why that is their input here. Certainly not a “requirement” to participation, but perhaps they owe it to their point to be clear what they mean and why.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 15, 2019 07:29AM)
[quote]
To that point, I would agree that some powers would weaponize memory of certain events. [/quote]

Exactly. And we might remember (or learn) what 9/11 means to thousands of Chilean families as well.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 15, 2019 07:53AM)
Even those who can change things cannot change the past and while they could change the varative they have their story and they are sticking to it.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 15, 2019 01:55PM)
[quote]On Sep 15, 2019, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Sep 15, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
To chirp "infamy" or "911" on cue does not demonstrate [i]learning from[/i] history.
[/quote]
I didn’t say it did.

To that point, I would agree that some powers would weaponize memory of certain events. Such makes it all that more important that others show a respectful commemoration for the lives lost and what that might speak to us as human beings, not weapons of the state, or haters of a fate.

So let me be clear, I didn’t say such events should be revered. Nor did I say such events require that people fall in step and chip a battle cry. Those who brought up such concerns would add to the conversation by explaining why that is their input here. Certainly not a “requirement” to participation, but perhaps they owe it to their point to be clear what they mean and why. [/quote]We get sidetracked away from commemoration of those lost to an event into context of that event. Away from shared loss and moment of silence to remember those lost. The other side of that loss, not to a random act so much as a political event, remains an open wound festering from neglect, or salted when used as lure for other topical discussions. Unfortunately it's not so abstract as "some would" as "many do" anchor the shared pain to focus feelings about others. A vague feeling where others are seen only in shadows and through the red haze of mortal insult. This happens as acting leadership which organized and performed the actions (whose consequences we commemorate) are gifted immunity from civil prosecution and continue to get support from our government as local authorities in their homelands. On that day, "9/11" my neighbors lost loved ones - and acquaintances spoke of the grey wall of smoke which flowed through lower Manhattan leaving an layer of soot and toxic fog. One person at I work lost his brother on one of those planes. In my own experience I can speak to the feeling of horror as air trafic was shut down and the pulse of goods and services stopped for a day.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 16, 2019 02:32PM)
The fog of war

“War is the realm of uncertainty; three quarters of the factors on which action in war is based are wrapped in a fog of greater or lesser uncertainty. A sensitive and discriminating judgment is called for; a skilled intelligence to scent out the truth.”


— Carl von Clausewitz
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Sep 19, 2019 05:16PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Sep 11, 2019, magicfish wrote:
History is a relegation? [/quote]

In 20 years it's just another chapter. [/quote]Once upon a time people could travel by airplane without taking off their shoes. [/quote]

Assuming your regular airline has expensive carpet?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 20, 2019 05:19PM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2019, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Sep 12, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Once upon a time people could travel by airplane without taking off their shoes. [/quote]Assuming your regular airline has expensive carpet? [/quote]Please explain, I'm missing your meaning.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 20, 2019 05:44PM)
Now you know how most feel reading your posts. Try it for over a decade before you complain.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 21, 2019 06:19AM)
Before entering his place of worship the Islamist takes off his shoes, which is part of the Islamic cleansing ritual: to leave the dust of the world at the door. He washes his hands and feet and kneels upon his prayer carpet and so on. We have to go through a similar cleansing ritual at airports. May you have a safe flight.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 21, 2019 08:01AM)
Sorry Mr Salk, yes, this fellow.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/30/khalid-shaikh-mohammad-9-11-trial-start-date