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Topic: Subjects whom are not native English speakers
Message: Posted by: elliott_6388 (Oct 4, 2019 10:52PM)
Hello all!
As I become ever more curious about this art form, my current location makes me wonder if I can even get some practical experience in. I am living in South Korea nowadays and what I would like to know is if anyone here has had experience with a subject who speaks only a little English; speaking some of course, just not fluently.
I recently had an experience of dropping little linguistic anchor points on a friend during an outing (he is Korean)... I later asked him to think of a card and revealed it to him. Seemed to obscure to be a coincidence and I felt pretty pleased with my self haha! However, he is a dear friend and is more aware of my speech patterns.
Im aware that my story isn’t strictly in the realms if hypnosis but imagine my question applies to hypnosis and a purer form of mentalism alike.
So, any experience performing these kinda if things abroad??
Many thanks in advance
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 4, 2019 10:56PM)
Ok so you have fallen for the NLP pitch. First thing to do is forget everything you think you know about that.
Message: Posted by: elliott_6388 (Oct 5, 2019 12:06AM)
[quote]On Oct 4, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ok so you have fallen for the NLP pitch. First thing to do is forget everything you think you know about that. [/quote]

I believe you could be mistaken, perhaps I have explained poorly but I believe what I am talking about has nothing to do with NLP. Unless you care to
expand?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 5, 2019 07:36AM)
Linguistic anchor points are snake oil.

https://www.nlpworld.co.uk/nlp-glossary/a/anchoring/

NLP is hogwash and has been discredited in all but the movies.
Message: Posted by: mindmagic (Oct 6, 2019 04:36AM)
When I was practising as a hypnotherapist I had many clients who were not native English speakers, and it caused very few problems. Even those experiencing past life regression talked to me in English.

On another note, I used NLP techniques all the time with my clients. NLP is a ragbag of many different techniques, some more effective than others. They aren't all based on linguistics. You can't dismiss "NLP" as a whole as hogwash. Sorry.

Barry
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 6, 2019 07:38AM)
The scientific community does. I'll go with their opinion.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neurolinguistic_programming

What is your degree in when it comes to therapy?

From the article.

"Neurolinguistic programming has now been identified as one of a top 10 most discredited interventions according to a published research survey by Norcross et al. (2006)"
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 6, 2019 09:27AM)
Https://www.theguardian.com/stage/shortcuts/2019/jan/02/mentalists-pseudoscience-neurolinguistic-programming-read-minds

I remember when this came out... Many of today's magic-mentalists got booty hurt.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Oct 7, 2019 08:55AM)
[quote]On Oct 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
NLP is hogwash and has been discredited in all but the movies. [/quote]

Well, movies and the PUA scene.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 7, 2019 02:32PM)
[quote]On Oct 7, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On Oct 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
NLP is hogwash and has been discredited in all but the movies. [/quote]

Well, movies and the PUA scene. [/quote]

Exactly. I forgot about that! That scene has faded a bit thank God.

The weekend therapist crowd HAS to believe in NLP. It is practically a religious belief. Otherwise you have to actually go get an education and that takes a LOT A OF TIME! Who wants to do that when you can just learn some nonsense in a weekend?
Message: Posted by: mindmagic (Oct 8, 2019 02:44AM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:


What is your degree in when it comes to therapy?

[/quote]

My degree is in Psychology. Next question?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 8, 2019 09:25AM)
How is it you disagree with the discrediting of NLP?
Message: Posted by: elliott_6388 (Oct 8, 2019 07:40PM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2019, mindmagic wrote:
When I was practising as a hypnotherapist I had many clients who were not native English speakers, and it caused very few problems. Even those experiencing past life regression talked to me in English.

On another note, I used NLP techniques all the time with my clients. NLP is a ragbag of many different techniques, some more effective than others. They aren't all based on linguistics. You can't dismiss "NLP" as a whole as hogwash. Sorry.

Barry [/quote]
Thanks so much for your reply. I had just imagined that certain trigger words would have lesser impact, as they do not resonate as strongly in second language speakers. Very interesting indeed.

A lot of these things are on shakey ground about NLP for sure. Perhaps I used the wrong terminology, could linguistic hints be more appropriate? For example Derren Browns method of Mental !@#$es are pretty darn reliable. These methods would be extremely difficult to test under clinical conditions as the subject would have to be in a desired condition. Anecdotal evidence is also valuable, but one has to disect it more carefully.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 8, 2019 09:40PM)
The plural of anecdote is not data. It is not valuable at all.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 8, 2019 09:43PM)
I've yet to see how any of this has anything to do with performance hypnosis?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 24, 2019 02:01AM)
I think the original question about "Subjects that are not Native" Is a good question. As when hypnotized people respond literally therefore suggestions need to be formulated with care. One of the appeals of stage hypnosis you never know exactly how someone will respond to a suggestion which can make it exciting and sometimes very funny. It can also make it disastrous if suggestions are not formulated with care. So its a good question. The answer is you need to work with care with people who have limited English as it will affect the outcome.

That aside there is no such thing as a "linguistic anchor point" in NLP so my guess is that the poster has never done any credible training in NLP and probably read a magician's ******** pamphlet. And neither has Danny so has no clue about what it actually is.

As for the scientific discredit on the wiki page? That is an awful page and again demonstrates a really Bad representation of what NLP actually is and tries to associate it with fruit cakes and crazy people. A common tactic used by the establishment in many other areas to discredit anything that doesn't support their agenda.Its more political than any thing else

The truth is while there is some BS within NLP (there is also a lot of Bs within the medical profession too)there are a lot of really useful and solid techniques that when used properly can many times be more effective than traditional solutions. Over the last 25 years I've lost count of the number of phobias that I have helped to remove using a combination of techniques I learned from good NLP trainings. I've lost count of the number of people I have helped come off anti depressant medication that have been on them needlessly for years after just one session. ( under the supervision of their doctors)

The truth is the medical profession doesn't like this because their power base is built up on prescription drugs and vast majority of research is funded by pharma. So it doesn't take much of a leap to understand why they will do anything to discredit any solution that focuses on getting people off their money making scheme. Im with Mindmagic on this one.He is a psychologist but is trained in NLP to some degree and uses the techniques. Why? because they simply work and most psychologists I have met or clients that have seen them are pretty useless.

There is a good reason why doctors favour talking therapies that go on for years. Its because it helps maintain their grip on their patients with regards to prescription drugs.

What has this got to do with performance hypnosis? Well it helps clear things up a bit. I think we have another case of magicians misleading magicians by using terms and selling products claiming to use methods they know nothing about. Sure there is a lot of BS surrounding NLP but there is also a lot of really good stuff too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2019 08:57AM)
Actually you are wrong in SO many ways it is hilarious.

I have done EXTENSIVE research on NLP, and at one point wanted it to be true almost as much as you. Unlike you I am guessing, I have spent quite a bit of time with Richard Bandler. I was 20 and had read "Trance-Formations". How about you? How much time did you spend with either of the authors? Any at all?

I SO wanted it to be true! It is hogwash. Sorry you can't say that parts of it are good and parts are bad. It is just bad pseudo science and has been debunked period.

Like all good pseudo science "the scientific community" or the drug company or some other big bad profit machine keeps them down and spreads misinformation about the cures they have LOL. It is always the same. Always a conspiracy!

Sorry. NLP is snake oil and it is proven and it is not even up for debate any more than any of the other pseudo scientific discoveries in our lifetime. You can claim any anecdotal evidence you want about how you "help" people but without double blind studies that can be monitored it means nothing. Science does not work that way.

Arguing NLP is the equivalent of arguing religion. I am not going to do it with true believers. If you believe it then go ahead. No problem.

But you don't have to look far to find some counter points. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 24, 2019 11:30AM)
I don't "believe" in anything. NLP is not a belief its a set of tools like Mindmagic has explained. Although many of those that are involved do treat it like a cult. I keep well away from them. I generally keep well away from hypnotists magicians and performers in general. Because they tend to be pretty egotistical and shallow and pretty unpleasant people in general especially when together. But how many therapy clients have you had? How much therapy work have you done? Have you worked with business people or sales teams?

I don't have to search the web looking for counter points. This isn't really a debate I'm just trying to share my years of experience over a considerable amount of time. I've been testing and using some of the ideas and techniques in the real world for a long time. I've refined it ditched the ******** and know what works and what doesn't in the way I work with clients. I know what works within the context of what I do. I also know the type of people that these tools work best with. But they are just tools. Anyone can buy a set of tools not everybody is equal when using them. People are not machines and there is an art a skill and ability that takes years develop to get the best results.

I have trained with a few of the top trainers in NLP. But funnily enough I never had the urge to train with Bandler I always thought he was too much into story telling and ******** even although he is one of the co-founders. I never mention the "NLP" reference to clients. I haven't been involved in the NLP community for at least 15-20 years. I got out early on. I don't really think of myself as a "NLPer" Im just a "hypnotist" in the broadest sense. I'm just giving some credit where its due.

A lot of anti depressants are snake oil too. There's a lot of it around.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 24, 2019 12:40PM)
The other thing Danny I know some prominent people in the Hypnosis world who developed more practical applications took away the phoney jargon and made some of the key foundations of NLP more accessible and became famous for their contributions. They swear Bandler was a great hypnotist. And tell me some stories of what he did with them? So I don't know everybody seems to get different things from knowing or hanging about with Bandler. He's a controversial character at best.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2019 12:57PM)
Sorry you can't get away from the absolute fact that it has been discredited. Believe as you want. And boy we KNOW you don't look for and are not interested in counter points. You sure prove this. Even facts don't matter to you.

But since you don't want to read the link here is a good takeaway.
"Among the reasons for considering NLP a pseudoscience are that evidence in favor of it is limited to anecdotes and personal testimony,[95] that it is not informed by scientific understanding of neuroscience and linguistics,[96] and that the name "neuro-linguistic programming" uses jargon words to impress readers and obfuscate ideas, whereas NLP itself does not relate any phenomena to neural structures and has nothing in common with linguistics or programming.[97] In fact, in education, NLP has been used as a key example of pseudoscience.[98]"

Your personal experience is anecdotal. Again the plural of anecdote is not data.

I get it. You're a true believer. You apparently must be. No worries believe what you want.

To be fair stopping smoking is another scam run by many so called hypnotherapists. Millions are paid and no credible evidence exists about efficacy.

But as Mindpro points out none of those has anything to do with performance.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 24, 2019 01:23PM)
Your so smart Danny you wouldn't put your belief in a pseudo science would you? No of course not your such an intelligent guy. Both psychiatry ans psychology are seen as being pseudo scientific.


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Forum:Psychiatry_is_a_pseudoscience

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results

I have had so many clients that have been under psychiatrists and psychologists and counselors for years and had no progress with there issues. Yet after a few hours I was able to resolve them...

And someone who apparently is an expert on Bandler I've read publications and I know he never claimed what he was doing was scientific he said it was more of an art. And from what I know about people I trust who knew him I believe he is a skilled hypnotist. That has nothing to do with science or academia. That's the problem with research and hypnosis experiments leave no room for skill and creativity. And the scientific community can't be relied upon to present unbiased findings. especially when its funded by big pharma. I have also already told you I rejected the pseudo scientific jargon and nonsense associated with NLP.

And this is why Im not going to go into counter points with regards to NLP I've done it been there got the T shirt I know what works and what doesn't unlike yourself that has zero experience in this area. And "believes" in a pseudo science.

It must be tough being you always having to be right all the time.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2019 04:49PM)
Blah blah blah. It is your religion I get it. I am sure all those doctors with all that education are no match for your NLP plus background. You are the best as always no matter what science has to say. Anecdotal evidence is much better I admit. Will you stop now? I am only guessing but my first thought is no.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 25, 2019 09:06AM)
God you are so twisted. I never said that at all. I pointed out The "degrees" you respect are also seen as pseudo scientific. Which was your main point of contention. You accused me of worshiping a pseudo science. Yet its actually you that is placing all your trust in a pseudo science. A pseudo science that is backed by big pharma for financial gain.

I only pointed out that a lot of the techniques that come from NLP are actually useful and do work. Nothing to do with religion. I really don't know where you get that from.

Your asking me to stop because you know your wrong on this one. But you have a pathological need to be always right so I won't hold my breath waiting for you to admit it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2019 09:50AM)
Yes. The side that the scientific community backs is wrong. Oh and it is a conspiracy by big companies.

I am the one who needs to admit I am wrong? HILARIOUS! I am pathological? When I simply look at a scientific consensus and agree? When they explain what a pseudoscience actually is they use NLP as a PERFECT EXAMPLE. I am pathological?

Do you see how useless all your NLP techniques are here when confronted with an adult with information?

No a lot of the techniques do NOT work at all regardless of your little anecdotal evidence that you pretend to have. It is horse feathers.

When did I every claim psychiatry or psychology was a real or not real science? Show me the post. Again a nice deflection technique, BUT since I never claimed it you don't get to make up stuff I have said and pretend it is me. Why not mirror my actions now for me LOL?

I am sorry I attacked your religion. But life is what it is.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 25, 2019 10:22AM)
You in other posts made it clear that psychologists / psychiatrists were the go to. You asked Mindmagic what his degree was he told you he was a psychologist. And you couldn't understand why he didn't agree with you. here is someone with a degree backed by the scientific community according to you. He told you because some of the techniques and skills do do work in his experience. But you know better than someone with the type of degree you supposedly respect. You debunked NLP purely on it being Pseudo Science. Yet your gods are Pseudo Science. The only real science attached to them is the prescription drugs which is at the core of what they do. Even then many of them have been proved to be placebo or even cause damage. And their basic theory on how they work to be totally wrong or flawed. I've yet to meet anyone on antidepressants who the issue was resolved through taking them. Most of the time they aren't needed at all. And most people you meet who have been on them for along time still have the original issue. Of course the medical community don't want the masses to know this they would lose billions of dollars. Its money driven. They know there are far more effective ways to deal with some of these issues but they will never endorse them. Because of commercial interest.

You obviously have no clue about therapy. Every person that walks in is unique. You work with whatever comes up and whatever direction it goes. No two people respond exactly the same. Which is why you could never do double bind experiments because just doing a standard technique over and over with everybody is useless. You have a set of tools skills and experience with which you break down the thought and emotional processes that are causing the problem and help them replace them with better ones. Most therapies work that way. Some of the techniques from NLP enable you to get there quicker and more effectively in my experience. Which you would know if you have worked with people using a variety of techniques over the years.

I'm sorry you feel you need to keep attacking its a mode you seem to be stuck on. it must be such a strain keeping it up. Your practically the same on every thread you take part on when it doesn't go your way. But I guess life is what it is.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2019 10:51AM)
Again nice try. Still debunked.

I asked him his training. Then I asked for the basis of dissent. You know like research? Oh wait research doesn't matter to you. Just your little anecdotal evidence.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 25, 2019 12:15PM)
I think think you are deluded Danny. You remind me of the newbie know-it-alls that used to come on here and argue about stage hypnosis with no experience. You know absolutely nothing or have any experience doing therapy yet constantly come up with this garbage. When someone tries to throw light on some of the issues you continue to broadcast your lack of knowledge and pathological need to grasp at straws to win the argument you created. Its not pretty. The only person you are convincing is yourself. Get off your high horse for gods sake. And take a deep breath you will be ok you know.Nothing bad will happen.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2019 12:34PM)
So of that to say you attack me because at the end of it all your NLP religion is debunked. Show us studies where it isn't. YOUT CAN'T so you attack me. No amount of attacking me elevate NLP to relevant sorry. All you have is nothing but anecdotal evidence.

Seems as if the only person you are convincing is YOU. Why is it so important for anyone to believe your religion?

Don't worry there are plenty of people to still buy your shake oil. Science long ago grossly underestimated the birth rate of the average sucker.

But again this has nothing to do with performance. But you just can't stop can you?
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 25, 2019 01:08PM)
I can't stop? the kettle calling the pot black! Ok Danny I realize it so important to you to think you've won an imaginary argument. You debunked me. How could I ever suggest you could ever be wrong please forgive me.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2019 01:43PM)
So hopefully you're done. You certainly have not provided evidence other than attacking.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Oct 25, 2019 06:26PM)
I think you should look up the word "projection". Then one evening when you have an open mind go through some of your old threads and see the pattern. It might do you some good. It might do the forum some good too. We might even see some fresh conversations going.This place has become stale.

By the way Bandler was a performer a story teller and a stage hypnotist in his own way. And of course part a charlatan too. Much of Derren Brown's success was down to imitating Bandlers stage presence and applying it to his own theater shows using stage hypnosis and Mentalism in the early days. Love or Hate Brown he had a huge success with it.

Instead of looking to try and be correct all the time this could easily be a thread about principles of performing hypnosis and identifying what works and how to transfer these principles into your own work. There are numerous high profile figures that could be analyzed and broken down in detail to try and identify why someone is successful and how to use those principles in your own way. Or it just could be interesting to think about and discuss..

But you prefer to go down the route of always being right. Its boring and tedious and is killing if it hasn't already killed this forum. But I guess you get to be right in your head so that's ok. I think its too late anyway the forum seems to far gone.

I wish you the best Danny but I probably won't be hanging about here much. It was nice to revisit though. good luck with whatever you do.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2019 10:55PM)
Good please do leave again.
Message: Posted by: Pete Legend (Nov 6, 2019 12:07PM)
I know nothing at all about the subject. I'm waiting on a flight and killing time but have to say.....Jaysus Danny relax and as my Irish teacher used to say "take a chill pill" Not everything has to be an argument. The man obviously has a wealth of real world experience in this area and has a different point of view than you. That's ok. The sun will rise again tomorrow. Also just curious have you ever wondered why you are involved in so many arguments here with so many different people?

By the way Mindpunisher good to see you on here again! You probably wouldn't remember me at all, I used to frequent the penny forum a fair bit back in the day. Always enjoyed your posts and still do! Hope all is well and this place would be a lot richer if you decided to stick around.

Pete
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 6, 2019 02:03PM)
So nobody is allowed a different point of view? LOL. I like the way you automatically assign the need of a "chill pill" to only one side. Ol punishy has no need to chill LOL.

Nice of you to drop by but you could have kissed his but in private message just as easily.
Message: Posted by: Pete Legend (Nov 6, 2019 02:09PM)
Fine I'll make that two chill pills, a hug and since you seem a bit jealous I'll throw in a kiss too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 6, 2019 02:24PM)
Project much?
Message: Posted by: Pete Legend (Nov 6, 2019 02:30PM)
Not much at all! Yourself?
Message: Posted by: monkeycat (Jan 11, 2020 04:12PM)
I see that things haven't changed much round here!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 11, 2020 04:16PM)
Mark why not enlighten us with your view on NLP? C'mon you know ya want to!
Message: Posted by: monkeycat (Jan 11, 2020 06:40PM)
I am reluctant to do so because it will mean that I have to agree with you whether I like it or not! Having said that I have always said that NLP is an abbreviation for "Not a Lot of Plausibility". However, I do appreciate that others will have a different opinion and of course they are quite entitled to it. I think I am biased because I once saw either Bandler or Grindler walking around a psychic fair and somehow I didn't like the look of him. It biased me against NLP immediately. Not terribly logical of me but psychic fairs are not bastions of logic anyway.

I do understand that one of them was charged with murdering somebody or other. I am not sure if it was the chap wandering around the psychic fair of course. He was tall and wore a pony tail. I can't be sure which of the two it was since my psychic ability seems to wane on the magic café for some odd reason. I did feel that murdering another human being to be terribly impolite and to this day I am not sure whether he was acquitted. However, when a founder of NLP is alleged to go around killing people it does dent the credibility of the thing somehow.

Just my opinion of course. Your mileage may vary.