(Close Window)
Topic: How It's Done by Edward A. Litzau and daub
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 7, 2020 06:28PM)
In my research across this site, I've run into the mention of this book several times while looking into daub, never pulling the trigger on actually purchasing it...

I have seen other books and forum posts regarding formulas of various marking inks and luminous work, over the years... and generaly these descriptions are old and outdated.

What I would like to know is: if I purchase this book, will I gain relevant information regarding my exploration into making various forms of daub? Are the elements that go into making the daub listed in this book still available? (Still available to purchase without going through a chemical supply company?) Do they still work as an effective marking solution that doesn't dull the back of the card or destroy the finish? Are there suitable substitutes for certain ingredients? (And where do I find mention of said substitutes)

I have been spending lots of money that I don't have recently on various pigments, filters and solutions I have been experimenting with for various marking systems, and am trying not to throw my money away so much anymore.
Regardless of if the information is outdated or not, I am still very interested in, and intent on purchasing this book, however I just want some time for my bank account to recuperate, UNLESS.. the information is still relevant and will help me in making daub tomorrow (figuratively).

Apart from this book, are there any other (perhaps more modern) sources from which to learn various formulas for daub?

In an other thread, I saw expertmagician asking how to make a certain substance (which I will refrain from mentioning) not dull the back of a card...I knew instantly it was regarding daub. Expert, did you ever find a solution to your problem? If so, where? I have a couple of ideas as to what could accomplish such an effect, but I just want to limit the guess work as much as I can for now so I can start experimenting with the various pigments and powders I have.

Any tips or Info would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 7, 2020 11:26PM)
Cliff,

What's the application?

Jason

PS: Unless you can source powdered aluminum at your local drugstore, you may have to use a chemical supply company.
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Jan 8, 2020 01:37PM)
[quote]On Jan 7, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:
Cliff,

PS: Unless you can source powdered aluminum at your local drugstore, you may have to use a chemical supply company. [/quote]

Or Amazon.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 8, 2020 02:15PM)
Hey Jason,

Application would be to paper, (would be nice if it worked on plastic too) and preferably something that can last for many games but be somewhat forgiving if the initial marking is too heavy.
Indoor lighting, So probably LED since that's what's common these days...
(I'm only guessing that what you meant by application was paper or plastic/settings)

If you meant what kind of marking system or something else, please elaborate. Feel free to pm if you don't want to ask specifics in public.

P.s.
Looks like I can source powdered aluminum from eBay.

Thanks
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 8, 2020 05:30PM)
[quote]On Jan 8, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 7, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:
Cliff,

PS: Unless you can source powdered aluminum at your local drugstore, you may have to use a chemical supply company. [/quote]

Or Amazon. [/quote]

Almost everything can be sourced "through" Amazon these days, regardless of actual origin. I took his "no chemical supply company" line to mean staying away from ordering online entirely.


Jason
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 8, 2020 05:34PM)
[quote]On Jan 8, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
Hey Jason,

Application would be to paper, (would be nice if it worked on plastic too) and preferably something that can last for many games but be somewhat forgiving if the initial marking is too heavy.
Indoor lighting, So probably LED since that's what's common these days...
(I'm only guessing that what you meant by application was paper or plastic/settings)

If you meant what kind of marking system or something else, please elaborate. Feel free to pm if you don't want to ask specifics in public.

P.s.
Looks like I can source powdered aluminum from eBay.

Thanks [/quote]


My question about application was more along the lines of: what happens if you get caught? Did a card trick just get ruined or something more serious?

As for buying on eBay - I'm confused. I took your "no chemical supply company" comment to mean you wanted to avoid buying online if possible. (I was guessing that there isn't a chemical supply company in your hometown.) But if you ARE willing to buy online, then why NOT a chemical supply company? Doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing?

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 8, 2020 06:14PM)
Oh, no I wasn't avoiding buying online. There's definitely no chemical supply company in my hometown, at least not one that you can buy from without a license of some kind. (I don't think)

It's just a matter of keeping costs and complications down. I live in Canada where we are not as liberal with letting the general public buy chemicals and items that can be used in explosives and fireworks etc...I don't know of any Canadian specific companies to purchase from, which is better for avoiding shipping across the border or requiring I pay duties or brokerage fees and such. Buying from eBay is generaly painless, lower cost and keeps me from having to pay extra hidden fees, and frequently has free shipping.

As for application, I am not planning on participating in any activities which would lead to a situation where I "get caught".

I do not play in games nor do I perform in a professional situation. I am an experimenter, a dedicated practitioner of gambling moves for no other reason than a cardist practises cardistry. I have been doing so for over 15 years.
I develop my own methods and techniques to accomplish certain feats and work on developing new gaffs or gimmicks in the gambling genre with no idea of what to do with them yet; I am just sort of a collector (+creator) of knowledge and skills.

Essentially what I am looking to do with the formula is to make some type of base daub solution to which I can add various specialty pigments and powders in hopes of making new (or at least unpublished/unmentioned) kinds of daub. I'd be glad to discuss it in private if you have any questions regarding the specificity of said daubs, but without giving anything away, these daubs would exist outside of the red, blue, gold, Silver, black and classic luminous varieties.

Sorry for the confusion
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 8, 2020 11:30PM)
380-740 not good enough for you, huh?

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 9, 2020 12:05AM)
Haha, no I'm definitely still there... Just thinking more circular...
And perhaps my aunty stokes can give me some more ideas if you catching my Tokyo drifts
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Jan 9, 2020 06:42AM)
[quote]On Jan 8, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Almost everything can be sourced "through" Amazon these days, regardless of actual origin. I took his "no chemical supply company" line to mean staying away from ordering online entirely.


Jason [/quote]

For some reason when I saw the "chemical supply company" I was thinking the concern was that they wouldn't sell in a small quantity, or to an individual.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 9, 2020 02:08PM)
Bingo
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (Jan 9, 2020 05:03PM)
You can also buy powdered aluminum at some art stores.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 9, 2020 05:59PM)
Finding powdered aluminum in small quantities isn't really difficult ... but making decent daub in your kitchen is about as difficult as it gets!
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 9, 2020 11:30PM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
Haha, no I'm definitely still there... Just thinking more circular...
And perhaps my aunty stokes can give me some more ideas if you catching my Tokyo drifts [/quote]

Exciting!
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 10, 2020 05:02PM)
Indeed exciting ideas... If they work out or not is an other story.

Gary, thanks for the tip, I did see some aluminum powder listed for painting on eBay. I will keep my eyes open next time I'm in the art store.
Turns out I don't actually need the aluminum powder for the formula I would use anyway.


As for difficulty regarding making it, Is there something I'm missing? I finally got the book and have read through the recipies and sourced some substitutes, and some original ingredients. It seems pretty straight forward.
...no? Which part makes it so complicated?
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Jan 10, 2020 09:29PM)
[quote]On Jan 10, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
.
Which part makes it so complicated? [/quote]


The [i] real[/i] work.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 11, 2020 09:18PM)
[quote]On Jan 10, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:

[quote]On Jan 10, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
.
Which part makes it so complicated? [/quote]

The [i] real[/i] work. [/quote]

What is the real work?

Just curious.
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Jan 12, 2020 03:27PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:


What is the real work?

Just curious. [/quote]

Do you make daub?
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 13, 2020 03:56AM)
The real work as in painting? Or real work as in physically mixing ingredients? Because as I mentioned before, I won't be using this under fire.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 13, 2020 09:54PM)
[quote]On Jan 12, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 11, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:


What is the real work?

Just curious. [/quote]

Do you make daub? [/quote]

Do you?
Message: Posted by: happy003 (Jan 14, 2020 12:49AM)
I thought for a minute someone was going to play Mississippi Stud.
The best bang for your buck as long as you only mark the JACKS.
Message: Posted by: Marlin1894 (Jan 14, 2020 10:04AM)
[quote]On Jan 13, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Jan 12, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 11, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:


What is the real work?

Just curious. [/quote]

Do you make daub? [/quote]

Do you? [/quote]

No. Do you?

Gotta admit, when it comes to scintillating conversation you can't beat The Gambling Spot.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 14, 2020 12:46PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:

Gotta admit, when it comes to scintillating conversation you can't beat The Gambling Spot. [/quote]

Got to agree with that.
:goof:
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 17, 2020 03:05AM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 13, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Jan 12, 2020, Marlin1894 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 11, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:


What is the real work?

Just curious. [/quote]

Do you make daub? [/quote]

Do you? [/quote]

No. Do you?
[/quote]

WELL... I do make daub now, and to answer my own questions and others (for any future readers):

The formulas are still relevant, they do not dull the back of the card if made properly and it definitely was NOT hard to do. Quite easy actually.

I have used both formulas in the litzau book (permanent and temporary) and they both work well. Some modifications may be needed depending on what pigments you get. It is not necessary to buy actual aluminum powder anymore as art stores have many metallic pigments available which can achieve the same goal.

Substitutions are available for almost every ingredient I've tried so far. I have not obtained any pure ingredients listed in the formula, only products available on the market with the listed ingredients in them, or simply googled substitutions for said ingredients, and they all worked perfectly fine. 99% of the ingredients are available at Walmart. Powdered pigments are available in a wide variety of colors in art stores. No need to mix your own colors.

some insoluble powders do not work with the given formulas. My assumption is that an entirely different formula must be used which is not listed in litzau or any other book I have seen recently.
I have an idea as to what could work based on my recent experience with making Daub; if you experiment with them too, you should gain enough knowledge to make any altercations you may need.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Jan 17, 2020 08:34AM)
[quote] I have an idea as to what could work based on my recent experience with making Daub; if you experiment with them too, you should gain enough knowledge to make any altercations you may need. [/quote]


Nothing covers the work like a good altercation.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 17, 2020 01:04PM)
Litzau's book is interesting, and indeed has been on my shelf for ages ... but it's hardly a reference work worthy of recommendation.
I'm all for good conversation, but lets at least try and be real.

Does daub for magic or for idle experimentation have any relevancy?
Maybe I'm missing something?

Most paper players today who try to play amateur homemade or huckster bought online-daub or juice still get caught very quickly, and the real guys playing real paper don't tip, sell, give away, or post their formulas on the fricking Gambling Spot!
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 17, 2020 04:49PM)
Considering most of the formulas in the book require some type of alcohol as a solvent, I would agree that it is not a book I would recommend. I only wanted it for the daub formula to understand what consistency daub typically is or used to be (never having bought, tried or used daub before).

As for relevancy, you are missing something because I never mentioned my full intentions behind wanting to experiment with these formulas.
Apart from what I mentioned to Jason, I have one other use I was intending to experiment with which would be geared to magicians/demo guys in the end if it works out.
As I've eluded to in some of the previous posts, I am trying to make a daub which will be able to spread a non dissolvable pigment. Why? (*Channeling doc*) Simply because it's application in a suspension solution is complicated and decays or degrades (falls off the card) eventually, and does not spread evenly. My hopes were that a daub-like substance could make a more even application, and make re application easier for the end user. This kind of marking has nothing to do with typical Daub work and marking cards during games.

As for your last paragraph... Now I think I'm missing something, maybe you can fill me in?
I understand there would be varying qualities of daub, some non permanent when you may want a permanent marking, some apply too heavy, some apply too light... And I understand some varieties of daub are just specific brands and types of makeup.. But if you have something that applies a subtle visible -only to the marker- marking, what would make this any worse than "real paper player's" daub? If the marks are the same, then the daub, for all intents and purposes... Is the same?
And for this I just mean to compare a "hucksters" Silver daub vs a "real paper player's" Silver daub.

Maybe you mean they don't use any type of Daub which is available to the public? Like IR or UV or any other types of luminous ink systems or fantastical magical pigments in daub form?... Which was one of my original intentions as well... To craft new daub recipes that I have never seen or heard of in public.

Any way you put it, I don't understand the separation between what I could make while experimenting, and what "real paper players" could have made during their own experiments. Please explain.

P.s. no one actually did tip anything here Besides the use of powdered aluminum, which isn't even needed anymore anyway.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 17, 2020 04:51PM)
[quote]On Jan 17, 2020, The Dowser wrote:
[quote] I have an idea as to what could work based on my recent experience with making Daub; if you experiment with them too, you should gain enough knowledge to make any altercations you may need. [/quote]


Nothing covers the work like a good altercation. [/quote]

Lol woops, I meant alterations
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 17, 2020 07:49PM)
On p. 70 of Bruce Lee's [i]The Tao of Jeet Kune Do[/i] is this quote: "Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."

To paraphrase for the slow students: When you first get into some new discipline, you don't know enough to make any reasonable claims or distinctions. Then you study, and you spend a period of time able to elucidate ALL of the distinctions and various techniques to the nth degree. Although you might not realize it, this is the time when you run a risk of missing the forest for the trees. But then once you approach mastery, you start to realize that all of that specificity can actually get in the way of real understanding. You take a step back and start to consider things as they really are - divorced from specifics, you can categorize things and think about them in new ways. And these "new" ways of thinking often involve simplifying techniques back down to their core attributes. Hence, all punches start to look alike to you again (and you have no trouble dealing with them).

There are a lot of lessons in that quote that can be applied to almost any physical skill: magic, music, billiards, martial arts, and yes, gambling techniques.

When you first hear about something like daub, it's easy to to think they're all the same: just some substance that doesn't belong on the back of the cards placed there to tell you the value. Then, as you "progress" to stage 2, you start to get caught up in all the different formulas and systems for playing daub. (It sounds like you're in stage 2 now, Cliff.) At stage 3, you start "seeing" daub in all sorts of things: a child's crayon or magic marker, a spot of makeup or lipstick, a tin of watercolors or a tube of chapstick. And you realize then, it's all the same crap.

Jason
Message: Posted by: ASW (Jan 17, 2020 11:17PM)
Or as Rick Estrin said about novice harmonica players trying to play Little Walter’s “Juke”, ‘how could they play it? They can’t even HEAR it yet.’
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 18, 2020 12:11AM)
Or as Rod the Hop once put it to me, "Daub isn't SOMETHING you put on the back of the cards to tell you their value, daub is ANYTHING you put on the back of the cards to tell you their value."

It wasn't long after he told me that that I stopped caring all that much about daub formulas.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 18, 2020 09:52AM)
I recollect a young man putting the same question to Eddie the Daub. Son, he said I would not use anything too fancy to be passed off as an accident. Normally if a croupier in a game discovers what seems to be daub on a card or two the croupier will ask, has somebody been reading a newspaper on got ink on their hands and then ask the players to show their hands. He will call for a new deck and that will be the end it.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 18, 2020 10:43AM)
[quote]On Jan 17, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Or as Rod the Hop once put it to me, "Daub isn't SOMETHING you put on the back of the cards to tell you their value, daub is ANYTHING you put on the back of the cards to tell you their value." [/quote]

Technically that is true, even chewing gum on the back of a card would qualify as daub under that definition. But the statement is too simplistic, vague and somewhat tongue in cheek. A more complete and correct definition for daub is something that you can put on the back of cards that tell you their values without the other parties suspecting, detecting or knowing something is there.

That is not only a different concept, it is a considerably different concept.

[quote] It wasn't long after he told me that that I stopped caring all that much about daub formulas. [/quote]

I think you are correct and for magicians, gambling experts and demonstrators that are basically exposing or showing the concept of daub, or maybe using it in their magic tricks, it doesn’t really matter what they show or use, as long as it does not reach the point of absurdity. Most in the demonstrator category have never been there or have any intention of going for the money with what they are exposing so it does not really matter what they show or use in that situation.

However, for those who actually do get the money with daub in say a casino environment and are actually successful in doing so over a period to time, then I would strongly suggest they might care a great deal about their formula, i.e. does it breaks the glaze on the back of the card, is it permanent or will it disappear over time, can it be detected by camera surveillance or with black light and so on.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 18, 2020 01:07PM)
It's not a different concept if not getting caught/suspected/etc is an a priori assumption. Put another way, "No sh*t, Sherlock."

As for casino environments, we've already determined that's not what the OP is interested in. If it was, I'd have given an answer that more closely resembles yours.

I'm still talking to Cliff.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 18, 2020 06:54PM)
[quote]On Jan 18, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

It's not a different concept if not getting caught/suspected/etc is an a priori assumption. Put another way, "No sh*t, Sherlock."[/quote]

I like that response. It comes from a position of supposed higher authority, demeans the content of the post and the person writing it, and obviates the necessity of further rational discussion.

[quote]As for casino environments, we've already determined that's not what the OP is interested in. If it was, I'd have given an answer that more closely resembles yours. [/quote]

Perhaps you would have and perhaps not. I don’t know what you level of expertise on this particular subject is. However, I would suggest the discussion and concepts herein encompass the totality of the thread unless you specifically address someone directly.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 18, 2020 08:59PM)
The conjurer, of course, can use daub to mark the face, rather than the back, of a selected card.

Not to mention the edge.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 19, 2020 12:10PM)
Daub is normally applied by hand, but of course, it does not have be as it can be hidden in say a modified cash chip or card guard etcetera and applied directly to the card from that, perhaps without getting the hands dirty.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 19, 2020 04:55PM)
Thanks for the thoughts and wisdom Jason. I appreciate that you feel as though you know where I am in these stages because you possibly followed a similar path, however I would have to disagree with your placement of me in these stages.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I think you might have the wrong idea about where I am at. Also I feel there are conflicting idea here regarding what daubs are. (One side says there's good daub and huckster daub, the other says "anything is daub, and that's what the pros say")

first, your assumptions are based on the idea that I am curious about daub to USE it as daub, or more accurately: to find out *how daub is used*. However this is not the case. I am not "caught up" in daub formulas since I only know one. I mentioned complex or "fancy" daubs simply because I have special pigments coming in the mail which I hope to experiment with in as many ways possible within my reach. My curiosity partially reaches into these realms because I am interested in the science as well as their application to the hustling world.

I currently have a pigment which is insoluble. My interest in daub stemmed from an attempt to apply the pigment to a card with little success (and not even particularly to denote the value of the cards) . I speculated that possibly a daub substance could apply the pigment more efficiently, but had never seen any before.

(I'm not new to this discipline, I have known for a long time that daub can be any substance. I've heard the stories: ear wax, bit of coffee, newspaper, condensation on the glass of a drink, graphite, makeup and especially Chapstick. I have known for a while that I could just mix any dye with Chapstick to create a substance that creates a subtle stain on a card, even something as simple as Kool aid powder; Hence why I had never seen, purchased or attempted to make daub before. But the consistency of Chapstick is no good for my insoluble pigment)

Thus my search for a formula for real daub began so I could see what the consistency was and to judge if it would be good enough to apply an insoluble powder. Turns out, a classic daub formula is not good enough for my needs in this case.

My mention of an altered daub formula is essentially an entirely different substance than the classic daub and would likely never be used as an ad hoc marking system, but a system which requires pre marking. My purpose is not to learn about how a cheat uses Daub or possibly market daub to people whom I think are hustlers. My purpose is to mark a card in a specific way, in private, for a specific use with a pigment proving hard to work with.

My position is that of problem solving, not curiosity about how a cheat cheats.

Since my markings will still be applied to playing cards, I have to pay attention to previously mentioned details such as dulling or destroying the finish on a card, permanency of a mark vs temporary. Questions I didn't get answers to; therefore pushing me into seemingly getting "caught up" in daub formulas until I got my answers.

Learning a classic daub formula is just an other piece of information to keep under my hat that I learnt in the process of trying to solve my pigment problem, and that's pretty much where it ends... Apart from my experimentation with the "fancy" inks once I get them.

So, in the end, (and separate from me claiming not to be in one of these categories) since the general idea is that anything that marks a card secretly in play is daub, why is "huckster" daub any worse than "real paper player's" daub? If a real paper player can play paper, his technique should be that where any daub is good daub because his technique surpasses the lack of quality in the daub. However, if the daub can make a light marking subtle enough to act identically to what a real paper player would make WITHOUT the skill a pro paper player has, then that would be good daub...No matter who it comes from... No?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 19, 2020 08:17PM)
Daub is a word that describes the action of smearing. The substance smeared onto the card is a soft matter.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 19, 2020 11:56PM)
[quote]On Jan 18, 2020, Cagliostro wrote

I like that response. It comes from a position of supposed higher authority, demeans the content of the post and the person writing it, and obviates the necessity of further rational discussion. [/quote]


Your comment was silly and you know it. The other possibility is that everytime we discuss bottom deals or false shuffles around here you want me to clarify that I'm only talking about the ones the other guys DON'T notice.

Jason
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 20, 2020 12:06AM)
[quote]On Jan 19, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts and wisdom Jason. I appreciate that you feel as though you know where I am in these stages because you possibly followed a similar path, however I would have to disagree with your placement of me in these stages.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I think you might have the wrong idea about where I am at. Also I feel there are conflicting idea here regarding what daubs are. (One side says there's good daub and huckster daub, the other says "anything is daub, and that's what the pros say")

first, your assumptions are based on the idea that I am curious about daub to USE it as daub, or more accurately: to find out *how daub is used*. However this is not the case. I am not "caught up" in daub formulas since I only know one. I mentioned complex or "fancy" daubs simply because I have special pigments coming in the mail which I hope to experiment with in as many ways possible within my reach. My curiosity partially reaches into these realms because I am interested in the science as well as their application to the hustling world.

I currently have a pigment which is insoluble. My interest in daub stemmed from an attempt to apply the pigment to a card with little success (and not even particularly to denote the value of the cards) . I speculated that possibly a daub substance could apply the pigment more efficiently, but had never seen any before.

(I'm not new to this discipline, I have known for a long time that daub can be any substance. I've heard the stories: ear wax, bit of coffee, newspaper, condensation on the glass of a drink, graphite, makeup and especially Chapstick. I have known for a while that I could just mix any dye with Chapstick to create a substance that creates a subtle stain on a card, even something as simple as Kool aid powder; Hence why I had never seen, purchased or attempted to make daub before. But the consistency of Chapstick is no good for my insoluble pigment)

Thus my search for a formula for real daub began so I could see what the consistency was and to judge if it would be good enough to apply an insoluble powder. Turns out, a classic daub formula is not good enough for my needs in this case.

My mention of an altered daub formula is essentially an entirely different substance than the classic daub and would likely never be used as an ad hoc marking system, but a system which requires pre marking. My purpose is not to learn about how a cheat uses Daub or possibly market daub to people whom I think are hustlers. My purpose is to mark a card in a specific way, in private, for a specific use with a pigment proving hard to work with.

My position is that of problem solving, not curiosity about how a cheat cheats.

Since my markings will still be applied to playing cards, I have to pay attention to previously mentioned details such as dulling or destroying the finish on a card, permanency of a mark vs temporary. Questions I didn't get answers to; therefore pushing me into seemingly getting "caught up" in daub formulas until I got my answers.

Learning a classic daub formula is just an other piece of information to keep under my hat that I learnt in the process of trying to solve my pigment problem, and that's pretty much where it ends... Apart from my experimentation with the "fancy" inks once I get them.

So, in the end, (and separate from me claiming not to be in one of these categories) since the general idea is that anything that marks a card secretly in play is daub, why is "huckster" daub any worse than "real paper player's" daub? If a real paper player can play paper, his technique should be that where any daub is good daub because his technique surpasses the lack of quality in the daub. However, if the daub can make a light marking subtle enough to act identically to what a real paper player would make WITHOUT the skill a pro paper player has, then that would be good daub...No matter who it comes from... No? [/quote]



Clilff,

All of your points are well taken. I'm not making any assumptions about you. I only know what you've told me. My comment about you being in stage 2 was only a guess - I'm well aware it could be wrong.

I guess my point is, in one sentence of your reply above you talk about knowing "daub can be any substance" and literally 2 lines later you commented about searching for "real daub." Those 2 statements are in direct conflict with one another.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 20, 2020 06:32AM)
The idea that any substance can be used for daubing is actually nonsense.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 20, 2020 11:46AM)
[quote]On Jan 19, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

[quote]On Jan 18, 2020, Cagliostro wrote

I like that response. It comes from a position of supposed higher authority, demeans the content of the post and the person writing it, and obviates the necessity of further rational discussion. [/quote]

Your comment was silly and you know it.

Jason [/quote]

That proves my point. Summarily calling my comment silly does obviate the need for further rational and objective discussion.

As such it is meaningless.

I don’t know what your problem is, Jason. Perhaps it would be better if you step back and rationally explain your position without the derogatory comments or school yard comments like “No Sh*t Sherlock.”
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 20, 2020 11:50AM)
[quote]On Jan 20, 2020, tommy wrote:

The idea that any substance can be used for daubing is actually nonsense. [/quote]

Precisely. It is an off the cuff comment when guys are joshing around and not to be taken seriously.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 20, 2020 10:08PM)
[quote]On Jan 20, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Clilff,

All of your points are well taken. I'm not making any assumptions about you. I only know what you've told me. My comment about you being in stage 2 was only a guess - I'm well aware it could be wrong.

I guess my point is, in one sentence of your reply above you talk about knowing "daub can be any substance" and literally 2 lines later you commented about searching for "real daub." Those 2 statements are in direct conflict with one another.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Jason [/quote]

Well, as I said I've heard the stories, so I definitely know anything can be used, however usually those stories tell the tale as though someone needed to use something "in a pinch", implying they might use a particular substance regularly but didn't have any when a game came up... or something?... I don't know how many people build up the earwax in their ears enough to mark all the high cards in a game. What if they have an other game the next day? Seems to me, if you're a paper player, and you like to daub cards, you might settle on a preferred substance. If you're going to have to bring something with you every time, why not "real daub"? why bring a newspaper to every game? Why keep touching it? Everyone read the newspaper back when they were still a thing. I'm pretty sure everyone knew it would make your fingers black. Seems highly suspicious.

It seems as though the patrons of this thread can not agree on what daub "is", but the consensus seems to be that there is a professional quality daub that is used, however any substance can be used as daub when needed.

There is clearly a product that is marketed as "daub" and is still sold to this day by the likes of David Malek and others. This is what I was referring to as "real daub". I thought that much would be clear. - A product that the gambling community seems to generally agree upon as a good substance for daubing on cards.

But you see how complicated it gets when I have to word things this way. It's much easier to say "real daub" and hope the reader understands.

I was in search of the paste like substance the gambling community refers to - or sells as "daub" to learn of its consistency.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 20, 2020 11:58PM)
Not all soft, adhesive substances would fit the bill but that is an essential quality of any substance used to daub anything. Hard, none adhesive substances do not fit the bill because it is physically impossible to smear such substances onto anything in that state.

That is why perhaps casino chips are hard as opposed to soft and sticky.

:)
Message: Posted by: happy003 (Jan 21, 2020 12:37AM)
If you want to learn to move in a casino listen to Rod, if you want to move in your neighborhood Hold’em tournament with aunt Betty and her friends. Follow the brilliant minds of the gambling spot.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 21, 2020 03:08AM)
If you want to listen to Rod cross my palm with silver.


I happen to be a direct decedent of the legendary necromancer Erichtho, the Thessalian witch.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 21, 2020 12:40PM)
Playing paper is about knowing [i]how to play paper[/i], preferably without getting caught. It really doesn't have much at all to do with daub formulas, having much more to do with the actual skill and knowledge of the player.
After all, daub is just "stuff".

I even hear that the "real work" is so basic it can be purchased at the ladies make-up counter at Walgreens ... who knew?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 21, 2020 09:31PM)
[quote]On Jan 21, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:

Playing paper is about knowing [i]how to play paper[/i], preferably without getting caught. It really doesn't have much at all to do with daub formulas, having much more to do with the actual skill and knowledge of the player.

After all, daub is just "stuff".

I even hear that the "real work" is so basic it can be purchased at the lady’s make-up counter at Walgreens ... who knew? [/quote]

Playing paper successfully is almost an art form. Whether playing paper, using moves or just scientific play, how you do something or how you "lay the play down" is usually the most important element of all or at least it is critically important.

However, in the case of professional "paint" players, they do take considerable care in the preparation of their daub, shade, juice or whatever they are using. However, the material used for MOST daub, even very good daub, can usually be purchased easily. The secret is knowing what ingredients to use, in what combination and how it is "mixed." However, when mixed correctly and played deceptively, daub is far from "crap" as has been mentioned previously. If fact, some professional paint players of my acquaintance make more money, in fact a lot more money annually, than most "square johns" who have "good" jobs.

However, you are not going to see those formulas and preparation techniques explained on a public forum like "The Gambling Spot." The "stuff" you can buy on line or bandied about by demo experts and magicians quite frankly is mostly garbage from what I have seen. Those preparations are good for card tricks and demonstrations by gambling "experts," not for use under fire.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 21, 2020 10:15PM)
[quote]On Jan 20, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:
[quote]On Jan 20, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Clilff,

All of your points are well taken. I'm not making any assumptions about you. I only know what you've told me. My comment about you being in stage 2 was only a guess - I'm well aware it could be wrong.

I guess my point is, in one sentence of your reply above you talk about knowing "daub can be any substance" and literally 2 lines later you commented about searching for "real daub." Those 2 statements are in direct conflict with one another.

That's all I'm trying to point out.

Jason [/quote]

Well, as I said I've heard the stories, so I definitely know anything can be used, however usually those stories tell the tale as though someone needed to use something "in a pinch", implying they might use a particular substance regularly but didn't have any when a game came up... or something?... I don't know how many people build up the earwax in their ears enough to mark all the high cards in a game. What if they have an other game the next day? Seems to me, if you're a paper player, and you like to daub cards, you might settle on a preferred substance. If you're going to have to bring something with you every time, why not "real daub"? why bring a newspaper to every game? Why keep touching it? Everyone read the newspaper back when they were still a thing. I'm pretty sure everyone knew it would make your fingers black. Seems highly suspicious.

It seems as though the patrons of this thread can not agree on what daub "is", but the consensus seems to be that there is a professional quality daub that is used, however any substance can be used as daub when needed.

There is clearly a product that is marketed as "daub" and is still sold to this day by the likes of David Malek and others. This is what I was referring to as "real daub". I thought that much would be clear. - A product that the gambling community seems to generally agree upon as a good substance for daubing on cards.

But you see how complicated it gets when I have to word things this way. It's much easier to say "real daub" and hope the reader understands.

I was in search of the paste like substance the gambling community refers to - or sells as "daub" to learn of its consistency. [/quote]

Again, good points. I just wanted to make sure you didn't get hung up on real or "classical" daub formulas thinking that if you didn't have access to them that you were somehow unable to mark cards (for your needs).

Do professional painters prefer certain formulas? Yes, of course. They like the consistent results they get from using the same stuff over and over again. But there's so much more to it than just having the "right" formula. Give the best daub in the world to a rank beginner and he'll get nowhere with it. Let an experienced pro leave his "real" daub at home and he can still get the money by stopping into a drugstore and experimenting for a few minutes. Ideal? No, but far from impossible. As Cag says in the reply above, (and I agree with him) good daub work is an art form. And yeah, most artists like to have "their" paints. But they can also use just about any paint in a pinch.

As long as you know that, pursue the classic formulas all you like - there is some interesting stuff to be learned from looking at the ingredients and chemistry of them.

Jason
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 21, 2020 11:05PM)
We became familiar with various exotic making substances not through gambling or magic but through the security printing business we were in. There is trade book which as I recall is called something like Optical Markings, which lists all the security inks and the like and it gives a full explanation of them and it comes with a DVD and samples. I have an old copy somewhere. Today most of this stuff can be purchased on the net if you know what you are looking for.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 22, 2020 05:57PM)
[quote]On Jan 21, 2020, JasonEngland wrote:

Do professional painters prefer certain formulas? Yes, of course. They like the consistent results they get from using the same stuff over and over again. But there's so much more to it than just having the "right" formula. Give the best daub in the world to a rank beginner and he'll get nowhere with it. Let an experienced pro leave his "real" daub at home and he can still get the money by stopping into a drugstore and experimenting for a few minutes. Ideal? No, but far from impossible. As Cag says in the reply above, (and I agree with him) good daub work is an art form. And yeah, most artists like to have "their" paints. But they can also use just about any paint in a pinch. [/quote]

When I was a teenager, I would periodically order dice and card work from the KC Card Company, mostly out of curiosity and to learn "how it was done" presumably by those in the know. I learned about KC Card Company, Hunt & Company and other gambling supply houses because they regularly advertised in [i]The National Police Gazette[/i] (which had nothing to do with law enforcement.)

One of the items I ordered was different colored daub, Red, Blue, Golden Glow and Silver Sheen. They came in little containers, (called "buttons" by hustlers) and the containers had small safety pins soldered to their backs, presumably to attach the buttons or daub holders to one's clothing (which is very amateurish). Rubbing or "hitting" the button to get some daub on one's finger was called, "Chalking Up" in hustler parlance, none of which I knew at that time.

Of course, I thought I had the "real work" from KC Card Company and in a certain sense it was. The daub was soft and the colors were [i]very[/i] strong but as a teenager and would be crooked gambling enthusiast, I thought this was the "real" work. In a sense it [i]was[/i] the real work and in a sense it [i]was not[/i]. The difference was the user and what he did with the daub and how he used it. A pro could work with this daub by cutting it down considerably, assuming he really wanted to put in on subtly. An amateur would use the daub as it was and wake the dead when he hit a card using this preparation. This daub was really made more for the half-smart chump trade, not for pros.

(KC Card Company supplied gambling supplies and gaffs to professional hustlers, but a good part of their business was done with the half-smart chump class, those who had larceny in their heart and though just by buying a gaff or marked cards or whatever, they could make an easy buck. This half-smart chump class does not realize there is no easy money. The pros that make a lot of money and have done so over the years have paid their dues and put in the time and effort to master what they do. There is no "easy" money just because one has some daub, or a bottom deal or whatever.

Years later, after I moved to Vegas and associated with some of the currently active hustlers, I made my own daub based upon what I learned from these guys. However, to parallel Jason England's comment above on not having the daub with you, I recall that once I was out of daub in Los Angeles and I had to get have some out of necessity. So what I did was go to King and Co which was an active gambling supply house at that time. The daub they had was similar to the daub I bought at the KC Card company years ago. To make a long story short, the base of the daub was okay but the colors were much too strong. So what I had to do was purchase separately a "powdered" preparation from the local art supply (which I won't get into), to thin this daub down, way, way down.

First, I had to reduce it to a very slight shade or haze and secondly to reduce the greasiness of the daub so it did not break the glaze on the back of the card. Finally I also had to harden it because very soft daub is not controllable if you are looking to put it on lightly.

Professional daub, or professional shade, when laid down on a card, is so light it is almost a [i]suggestion[/i] that something is there. Almost a hint if you will. The work is on the card but it is not there for all intents and purposes. In fact John Scarne, in the marked card section of [b]Scarne on Cards[/b] observed that profession shade players have to be good guessers, which is true. With practice professionally reading good daub or shade is really just glimpsing at the card to get a vague hint to see if something is there. With a lot of practice, you get to where you can read just that "hint" on the fly in a gambling game with just a brief glance and usually guess correctly...AND...on a practical level it is undetectable to any except to another [i]professionally practiced and trained shade reader. [/i]

A tremendous of money has been made with professional shade and daub over the years. I would have to say that many who buy the commercial stuff online might have a false sense of confidence that they can detect professional work in a game. However, unless you are very practiced in reading this hint, with good work laid down, on a practical level it would be virtually impossible to see.

Perhaps what I have written above is somewhat inappropriate on [i]The Gambling Spot[/i] and gobble gook to many, even though what I have written is only the tip of the iceberg. However, I though it might be nice to briefly comment on how using daub and reading good work is actually done in the real world by pros.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 22, 2020 07:52PM)
Cag, so I hear this chant over and over: the stuff you buy is garbage, the stuff pros use is made by Gods.
I'll ask this again to hopefully get an answer this time...what is the difference between the two daubs if they can hypothetically make the *exact same marks?*

from what I've learnt from messing around with the litzau formula, I can make the marks lighter or darker. Not by applying more or less pressure, but by adjusting the consistency of the daub.
Does a pro just want an extremely light mark? From previous posts, we've established that anything too fancy is to be avoided... So regarding marking differences we can only be talking about light/dark, permanent/temporary and possibly how long the ink can streak across the card. The way you talk about it is as if anyone making Daub will fail to create something similar to what the pros use for... X________reasons. But if it's just a matter of how visible the mark is once applied, I fail to see how they are dissimilar.

Jason, thanks for the reply. I understand the points you made well. Studying the classic formulas have been interesting for sure and have given me the insight I needed. In the end I won't be using a substance anything close to classic daub.
Out of curiosity though, after you stopped caring about classic daub formulas due to what Rod told you, did you stop caring all together about daub or did your curiosity just shift to what exactly the pros were using on a regular basis? Ie: specific makeup brands + whatever else makes them so special.

Tommy,
That's very interesting about the book "optical markings". I'm assuming the book itself is probably impossible for someone like me to get right?
I am very aware about security inks and have spent a great deal of time researching inks in general, security inks and browsing the things available on some popular sites like s*a**l and m****x. I prefer to try and source the inks outside of sites like that though since they are generally expensive or shipping is way too much...or the name of the ink is still secret, kinda like how if you look up "how to make makeup from scratch" you won't get something that is close to a daub formula, but someone saying "I bought this base substance, preservative and binder from such and such website" instead of listing ingredients by name which I can look up myself.

I have sourced some security inks and other variants of special pigments through sites like AliExpress and Amazon, but there isn't a very large assortment of security inks on there.

When you say they can be purchased if you know what to look for, do you mean in bulk like for $4000? Or can an average consumer buy a small amount of these? I have tried purchasing some kind of security ink from an other website (which I forget the name of) and they wouldn't sell to me because I was just an average consumer and not a business which would require the ink.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 22, 2020 08:19PM)
Cag, thank you for your post. It was very informative for me.
Sorry, I typed up my previous reply before I noticed you had made this post.

Essentially you have answered my question.
A substances a pro would use is just so subtle it is practically invisible. Therefore you could make any daub into good daub with some modifications. Something I would not have known was possible, or how to do, unless I read litzau.

It is understandable that daub being sold on the internet would always be too strong due to the consumer possibly not being as skilled. If they try to apply the daub and see nothing, they may assume their daub is garbage or defective.

So now that I understand the parameters of this daub, I feel anyone who makes daub could essentially make a professional level daub with the known formulas + tweaking, but don't due to not everyone being able to use such a substance. Is this fair to say?
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 22, 2020 10:14PM)
[quote]On Jan 22, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
Professional daub, or professional shade, when laid down on a card, is so light it is almost a [i]suggestion[/i] that something is there. Almost a hint if you will. [/quote]

Cag and I don't always agree (and even when we're saying the same things I sometimes will nitpick about the WAY he says something). But this sentence is spot on. I've said before that reading really faint/light work (whether juice, line shade, triangle shade, or daub) often involves a sort of "trust" that you really are seeing a mark you think you're seeing. But I like Cag's wording better: "just a suggestion" that something is there. Great.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 22, 2020 10:24PM)
[quote]On Jan 22, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:

So now that I understand the parameters of this daub, I feel anyone who makes daub could essentially make a professional level daub with the known formulas + tweaking, but don't due to not everyone being able to use such a substance. Is this fair to say? [/quote]

There is some truth to that observation. There is no magic here. We are initially looking at the skill of the practitioner first and foremost.

However, the daub should meet certain minimum standards. Not all know formulas will do the job because they cannot satisfy the following criteria.

It cannot break the glaze or shine on the back of the card. The first and easiest way that even an amateur can detect daub or shade work is simply by flashing the card back against the light to see if it breaks the shine. Also, it cannot smudge or blotch when you put it on.

It cannot show up under black light. Much standard commercial daub will do so even if put on subtly.

Very importantly it must be controllable so it can be applied consistently each and every time which is why I prefer hard rather than soft mushy daub.

The color, if any, must be blend with the back of the card but does not have to be the same color as the card back. I don't care for red and blue for red and blue cards...too obvious, too old and too passe.

There are more subtle tints that really fool those that look for the standard red, blue, silver or golden colors.

It can be made permanent or made to disappear after a period of time. There are also some eyeglass lenses that can enhance reading daub that is virtually invisible without the glasses. When I say eyeglass lenses, I am not talking about luminous work or infra-red work. Luminous work always has always been a joke and strictly a chump item, and infra-red is passe.

It can be made to either disappear over a period of time or be permanent. Depends if one is making one play or multiple plays and if in a casino play, how carefully the cards will be examined after the play.

With the above caveats under consideration and if the daub meets the above standards, once again it is just a hint regardless of the color used, even if using a standard color which is not recommended. It is hard to describe, which is why it is so deceptive. It is the skill of the practitioner. I have even seen red daub used on blue cards in a pinch. However, it was applied so lightly and was so slight, you just could not see it unless you were already skilled and capable of reading the work to begin with.

I hope this helps but that is about as far as I can go on this.

Also you just can't cut down any commercial daub or just any daub like substance because it will not adhere to all or most of the above standards. Plus, you have to know how to correctly cut it down. But if the stuff you are making up adheres to the above criteria and ends up being simply a hint of something on the card, and you can read that hint by just briefly glancing at it, then you have something good and you are good at reading it. If not...???
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 22, 2020 10:37PM)
Cliff,

After Rod and I talked, what I came away with was just a larger appreciation that the "daub doesn't make the man" so to speak. Imagine getting hung up on what type of golf clubs Tiger Woods uses and thinking that if only you had his clubs you'd be a better player. It's just not true. You could give me Tiger's clubs and I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with them since I'm not a golfer. Meanwhile, Tiger could clean up at the local municipal course with a set of clubs from Wal-mart. Only if Tiger went to a big tournament would he likely need his clubs to compete at the highest levels.

Daub is similar. Do full-time professional cheaters that specialize in painting up their own cards on the fly want specific combinations of ingredients? Sure they do. Why wouldn't you? But most of them would do just as well using a slightly inferior recipe in a pinch (as Cag alluded to above). How is this possible? If the recipe is so critical, how could they possibly get by with anything less than EXACTLY the right combination of ingredients?

Well, it's because daub doesn't make the man and if you really understand the concepts and ideas behind daub, you start to realize that the recipes are NOT that critical to the vast majority of applications. Only at the highest levels of scrutiny might a specific recipe make a difference.

Jason

PS: Forte's [i]Casino Game Protection[/i] has a section that delineates the differences between "classic daub" and "daub substitutes." He makes the case that just about anything that can be smeared onto the back of a card can be (and has been used as) a "daub" (of sorts). My claim that "anything can be used as daub" is probably hyperbole, but it's largely true if you don't try to take the comment literally. That idea comes from talking with guys like Rod and Steve about this (and other, similar) things. I'm much more interested in concepts and the intersection of ideas/techniques than getting caught up in one particular recipe or formula for accomplishing something.
Message: Posted by: Scodischarge (Jan 23, 2020 11:19AM)
Thank you to both Cag and Jason for your contributions to this conversation. I'm not qualified to talk about any of the topics discussed, but I greatly appreciate both of you taking the time to answer the question.

Cag, your story isn't perceived as "gobble gook" in any way. Quite the opposite, it's extremely interesting and informative, especially as I can recognize myself in the way you describe yourself as teenager, so I try to learn as much as possible from your posts. Thank you very much for your very detailed answers!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 23, 2020 01:46PM)
[quote]On Jan 23, 2020, Scodischarge wrote:

Cag, your story isn't perceived as "gobble gook" in any way. Quite the opposite, it's extremely interesting and informative, especially as I can recognize myself in the way you describe yourself as teenager, so I try to learn as much as possible from your posts. Thank you very much for your very detailed answers! [/quote]

You are quite welcome. Glad it was helpful.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 23, 2020 04:09PM)
If the daub can not be dull and the daub can not be shinny then what else the daub could be is a mystery to me.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 23, 2020 05:17PM)
[quote]On Jan 23, 2020, tommy wrote:

If the daub can not be dull and the daub can not be shinny then what else the daub could be is a mystery to me. [/quote]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Wm. Shakespeare (Hamlet)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 23, 2020 07:11PM)
In that regard what is the best daub to use is relative to the sort of playing cards one is working with. Different sorts of playing cards have different finishes: some have a shiny finish some a matt finish. It is not the daub so much that needs to match the finish but the carrier which is, as a rule, a clear substance.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 24, 2020 08:43AM)
[quote]On Jan 23, 2020, tommy wrote:
In that regard what is the best daub to use is relative to the sort of playing cards one is working with. Different sorts of playing cards have different finishes: some have a shiny finish some a matt finish. It is not the daub so much that needs to match the finish but the carrier which is, as a rule, a clear substance. [/quote]

Is this like the old song, "Different strokes for different folks?" :P
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2020 09:19AM)
Which reminds me that one can get ante stroke fingerprint dust. We have some which is white and is quite invisible on Ken cards on the white border or the white edges of the cards but can be seen with an IR cam.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 24, 2020 11:32AM)
[quote]On Jan 24, 2020, tommy wrote:
Which reminds me that one can get ante stroke fingerprint dust. We have some which is white and is quite invisible on Ken cards on the white border or the white edges of the cards but can be seen with an IR cam. [/quote]

Didn't Erdnase say that the resourceful professional will have nothing do do with prepared cards...and ...isn't he the final word on card table chicanery.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 24, 2020 04:22PM)
Tommy, by carrier, are you referring to the medium with which the pigment is mixed, is always clear?

I wouldn't have thought that. It seems with the basic formula I have here from litzau, the daub goes on clear and does not disrupt the consistency of the back of the card... However the base substance is far from clear as you probably know.

As for the "fingerprint dust". I'm not sure if you spelled the name wrong to slightly disguise the powder to which you're referring to or not... But if you are talking about what I think you are, I wasn't aware it would be visible with an IR cam. Usually such a pigment is advertised as needing excitation in a specific wavelength to create a fluorescence into the visible spectrum. I have some of this powder coming in the mail. I will have to run more tests with it than I thought. You're telling me it's an IR blocking substance too?

Speaking of powder, I had a question regarding "juice dust" or powdered forms of daub...
In my messing around with the litzau stuff, I made a type of "juice dust", however it's much more messy than a typical paste or chunky powdered classic daub. I've seen the types of bags that expertmagician sells his juice dust in, and it all seems more messy no matter how you look at it. Do pros actually prefer a powdery dry substance like this? Or are they typically still slightly on the paste/packable (compressible) powder side?



Jason, thanks for the reply. I understand your golf club analogy well. It makes sense to use the best only in the situations where you will need to be the best.
Also thanks for the tip about the GPS book. I went back and checked what he wrote about daub, and something struck my curiosity.

Steve mentions that usually almost always, the center or off center of the card is hit. This would denote a high card or desired card depending on the game played... but earlier cag's reference to the marks on the cards only being suggestions and having to guess the value right, indicates that he would be marking the actual value of the card and not only denoting a high card.

you and cag both agreeing on the analogy of a suggestion tells me it must be common place to denote actual value,/(almost)full identities of cards. Is this the case? Was Steve's book a little inaccurate in saying they're almost always marked in the middle?
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Jan 24, 2020 06:52PM)
The game dictates where you hit the cards. In blackjack, just hitting high cards 10s, Js, Qs, Ks, and As would allow you to crush the game. All of them can be hit in the center. In baccarat, 7s, 8s and 9s would be hit. Again, hitting in the center would allow you to crush the game. Depending on the type of poker, you could hit only high cards all in the center (lowball, where knowing your opponent caught a high card and has a worthless hand, is a good example) or you could go for more information fidelity and hit all, or many of the values in different spots. It just depends on the game.

J

PS: the "suggestion" comment means that the work is so light that even you, the guy who KNOWS it's there, sometimes has doubts about whether you're seeing it or not and/or reading it correctly. This is especially true when looking at a card you haven't hit yet. You'll often think, is card clean or am I just having trouble seeing it?
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Jan 25, 2020 05:57PM)
Jason,

You are 100% correct. Most people who I know want marks cards that are easy to see. They simply do not understand that light and subtle is far better.
As they say in the stock market "Bears win, Bulls win, but, Pigs loose".

Bottom line don't mark every card, don't make the marks easy for you to see and your will be around to be very successful. Don't be a "pig" by marking every card with easy to read marks.

But, then again, I know that most people will not listen...oh well.... to each his own :-)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 26, 2020 06:05AM)
The basis of ink used on playing cards is colour and vanish, the latter being the carrier of the former. The finish is clear varnish of one sort or another. In my view, the perfect carrier for card making solutions would be the very varnish used by the manufacturer for the card finish.

Not being a mind reader I do not know the stuff you are thinking of. I can say though that the powder we have is certainly excited by the IR LEDs fitted around the lens of our IR sensitive camera which sees it.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Jan 28, 2020 09:52AM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2020, Expertmagician wrote:
Jason,

You are 100% correct. Most people who I know want marks cards that are easy to see. They simply do not understand that light and subtle is far better.
As they say in the stock market "Bears win, Bulls win, but, Pigs loose".

Bottom line don't mark every card, don't make the marks easy for you to see and your will be around to be very successful. Don't be a "pig" by marking every card with easy to read marks.

But, then again, I know that most people will not listen...oh well.... to each his own :-) [/quote]

Considering the number of players that get caught using the product you're associated with, your advice is questionable at best.
If you feel obliged to call me out here in the forum, I'll be happy to share all the details.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 28, 2020 10:55AM)
If one looks at the reported cases where somebody has been caught using daub in a casino it often down to greed.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 28, 2020 01:10PM)
Mr. Bones posted this in regard to Expertmagcian's post above.

[quote]On Jan 28, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:

Considering the number of players that get caught using the product you're associated with, your advice is questionable at best. [/quote]

Just curious, what product are you referring to and can you elaborate further. (I am not up on what products forum members are currently selling.)
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Jan 28, 2020 06:15PM)
Jason, Thanks for your input. I guess it's not completely uncommon to mark more than just "high card" or not.

As for the suggestion comment. I understand very well what you guys meant about a suggestion. I am by no means new to the gambling scene. I have done many tests with marked cards, juice and luminous etc, I understand exactly what a suggestion would be. I always try to get the marks as light as possible in person, but when I try to film an update for someone or anything like that, the marks are pretty invisible on camera.

My guess is that a professionally applied mark with daub would practically not appear on camera at all? Would this be true?

Tommy- thanks for the tip about the varnish. I realize it's hard to find that specific varnish, but it's conveniently sold on the same website that sells litzau.
I wouldn't have thought to use a varnish like that, but it makes sense and would almost allow for any kind of powder or pigment to be sealed into the card, even if the solution would ruin the card's finish had it not been mixed with varnish.

As for the excitable powder we were discussing. The one I am referring to can only be, or is mostly only excited by lasers of a specific wavelength. All the LEDs I've seen are just below or above the excitation range of the pigment to which I am referring. However, we should be talking about the same pigment due to what you say about it, and the name you called it. In which case, the LEDs are not exciting the pigment on your cards, they should be simply illuminating the area with IR light. Your camera can pick up the markings because in the IR spectrum, the ink should be blocking all the ir light, thus no color reflects off of it.. Does it look black on camera? If so, it is blocking IR light. If it glows or fluoresces, it is being excited by the light. This same pigment you are referring to might glow a bright green in the visible spectrum when simulated by a specific wavelength of laser light.
Maybe you should look into that. Could be an easy way to get busted lol. Someone only has to bring that laser and your cards will light up like a Christmas tree.

Mr bones, are you referring to ultra luminous?
I thought that would be a much better alternative to classic luminous daubs. Admittedly, I can see some of the "ultra luminous juice dust" on the back of the card without the filter in his demo video, but it overall looked much brighter than any luminous mark I've seen... Which to me means you could make the mark insanely subtle and still see it well. But I am very interested in hearing how or why so many people are getting caught with it. I thought the pigment was supposed to be practically invisible without filters?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2020 05:16AM)
The book I mentioned above is called Optical Document Security - Rudolf L. van Renesse. It may be out of print and somewhat outdated now. The place to go to see the latest materials is the big printing trade shows, like IPEX. It is not only the materials one can see there but also the devices that see or read them.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 29, 2020 12:52PM)
[quote]On Jan 24, 2020, Cliff Rusnick wrote:

Speaking of powder, I had a question regarding "juice dust" or powdered forms of daub...

In my messing around with the litzau stuff, I made a type of "juice dust", however it's much more messy than a typical paste or chunky powdered classic daub. I've seen the types of bags that expertmagician sells his juice dust in, and it all seems more messy no matter how you look at it. Do pros actually prefer a powdery dry substance like this? Or are they typically still slightly on the paste/packable (compressible) powder side? [/quote]

In my many years of experience, I have never seen a pro hustler, and I have known quite few in my lifetime, who used juice dust, daub dust, daub powder or [i]any kind[/i] of powdery substance for daub use in play. It is not controllable and it is tremendously messy. Pros use either a soft or medium daub, or better still for complete controlability, a hard daub is best. That is from direct experience, not from reading books or from talking to supposed gambling experts. It must go on the same each and every time---no exception. Exceptions produce too strong a hit which are known as "screamers," in hustler terminology...work that is so strong it can be seen by others.

[quote] Steve mentions that usually almost always, the center or off center of the card is hit. This would denote a high card or desired card depending on the game played... but earlier cag's reference to the marks on the cards only being suggestions and having to guess the value right, indicates that he would be marking the actual value of the card and not only denoting a high card.[/quote]

All the cards of the deck are almost never hit on daub plays. You simply don't have the time or accessibility to all the cards during a game. Groups of cards are usually hit depending on the game...high group, medium group and low group are designated for BJ. For Hold'em, high cards would be hit but again rarely if ever are all the card hit when daubing. The middle or off center are the easiest and fastest places to hit a card, but not necessarily the best or the most deceptive. If you hit the center of the card, it must be super-light in strength or it will be too easily seen by others. There are many superior and more deceptive ways to hit cards that are not in the center.

Real world descriptions of how these things are actually done are not necessarily the same as demonstrator or gambling expose descriptions as to how it is applied in the real world.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2020 04:04PM)
Does anybody here know what Karas was using?
Message: Posted by: happy003 (Jan 29, 2020 04:07PM)
[quote]On Jan 28, 2020, tommy wrote:
If one looks at the reported cases where somebody has been caught using daub in a casino it often down to greed. [/quote]

A perfect example is Bruce Koloshi. The guy is busted at the L’Auberge Casino in Baton Rouge for marking the entire deck on a Mississippi Stud table with luminous ink in 2013. A dealer became suspicious and reported his behavior to a Shift supervisor. By marking every card Bruce had just over a 200% advantage, however, he would have had just a little under 35% advantage had he of only marked the jacks. He also wouldn't have been caught so easily.

Side note: Daryn Hokie, Surveillence Director at the L'Auberge said looking back he should have realized something was wrong sooner. When he first made contact with Bruce months before they had the evidence for an arrest. His team made Bruce empty his pockets. He had change, keys, and 1 empty contact case. Yet Bruce was wearing glasses. Of course later he found out the contacts were luminous readers used with his glasses.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 29, 2020 06:52PM)
Yes, there have been a few busted lately using invisible ink and contact lenses to see it, which I think is quite a different idea than marking cards in a way that the operator himself can hardly see. I have not seen them in reality only on film where the marks appeared bold and black when seen through the filter.
Message: Posted by: Cliff Rusnick (Feb 1, 2020 03:18PM)
Wow, thanks for the actual title of the book Tommy. Apparently one of the libraries around me has it.

And thank you Cag for your detailed response regarding the daub dust and where/how cards are hit.

Happy, interesting story.

I was under the impression that luminous systems were always for suckers. Are they becoming sophisticated enough to where pros are giving them a try?... Yet they are still getting busted?

Why do you all suspect that so many get caught using luminous systems? Is it because they don't know how to play the game? They're not subtle cheats? Or because the markings or contacts are actually visible somehow, whether that be through the eye in the sky or a suspicious dealer/player?
Basically, if a mark is invisible, shouldn't it be undetectable in the hands of a pro regardless of the system due to their playing style/ "grift sense"?
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Feb 8, 2020 02:01AM)
I'm curious about that too - my guess would be that if you're marking a whole deck, and each value differently, you're probably going to end up with some pretty convoluted hand movements that would raise suspicion.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 8, 2020 05:07AM)
The action does look pretty obvious when one looks at some of the eye-in-the-sky examples on the net. Still, I don't think anybody would and I have never known anybody notices the action live. In my experience, the dealer or a player will notice a mark, rather than see the action of somebody marking the cards.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 8, 2020 09:38AM)
[quote]On Feb 8, 2020, tommy wrote:

The action does look pretty obvious when one looks at some of the eye-in-the-sky examples on the net.
Still, I don't think anybody would and I have never known anybody notices the action live. In my experience, the dealer or a player will notice a mark, rather than see the action of somebody marking the cards. [/quote]

Good points, tommy.

However, if the marks can be seen by the eye in the sky or surveillance, then the work if no good---it is a sucker item type daub or "paint." For a pro, his first requirement is the work CAN'T be seen through the cameras or surveillance.

What kind of moron would play daub that can be seen through surveillance? Yes, I know there are a lot of morons out there, and these are the guys that usually get caught and end up on video, although even the best can occasionally get "caught" (meaning primarily getting winning heat and have to judiciously move on to another spot for a while).

To last and get it on time after time for significant money is not easy. To become a successful long time pro is hard work and takes a lot of experience. But it is worth it to them because of the money they can make...much better that any 9-5 job they could get...and the travel spots they go to and free time they get are much better also.

To magicians and demonstrators (99% of whom have never "been there") exposing some garbage daub work that a 3 year old could see blindfolded, while pontificating about their knowledge and expertise during their "expert" demonstrations...now [i]that's[/i] easy.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 9, 2020 12:34AM)
We were not suggesting the marks can be seen by the eye. What normally happens is the hustler marking the cards gets greedy and surveillance starts looking at the eye tapes to see if they can see what he is doing. In that process, they see by the action of his fingers that he appears to be marking cards. So without and before seeing the marks themselves surveillance already knows what he is probably doing. The action and marks are two different pieces of evidence.
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Feb 9, 2020 05:15AM)
Finding the marks as the first piece of evidence makes it easier to then go back and gain the other piece from the camera (at least in the casino environment).
Unfortunately, it isn't as easy the other way around... first recognizing the suspicious action ... then looking for marks.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 9, 2020 06:05AM)
When the surveillance become sus of greedy players betting patterns, they do not know he is making cards or switching or anything. All they know is the fellow seems too lucky for their liking. It is likely at that will first look at tape before checking the card in my view. It depends, it is not unknown for hustlers marking cards in casino BlackJack games to hit on 20 and get and get an Ace, which of course will wake the dead. to the fact that the cards must be marked.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 9, 2020 06:54AM)
Speaking of eyes seeing marks;

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/nyregion/card-cheater-learns-invisible-ink-was-not.html
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 9, 2020 09:21AM)
[quote]On Feb 9, 2020, tommy wrote:

When the surveillance become suspicious of greedy players betting patterns, they do not know he is making cards or switching or anything. All they know is the fellow seems too lucky for their liking....it is not unknown for hustlers marking cards in casino BlackJack games to hit on 20 and get and get an Ace, which of course will wake the dead. to the fact that the cards must be marked. [/quote]

It [i] is [/i] unknown for anyone to has lasted long enough to become a pro to hit a 20 with a small card coming up, if fact they would not hit 17, 18 or 19 in that situation. Of course, sometime a yahoo will come out of the woodwork and do something like this, but a pro???

Without giving away the store, one would be hard pressed to figure out what was happening on a pro play...all you would know is the game is losing money which can happen at any time. It can be mixed up so much it would drive you crazy to figure what was happening...plus the take off man may not be making any bad plays at all.

Also I would defy anyone to detect a pro hitting the cards with daub. It is not like a second or bottom deal with definable points of reference.

But as I said, I am not giving away the store on a public site.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 9, 2020 11:15AM)
I am speaking of actual reported cases.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 9, 2020 11:44AM)
[quote]On Feb 9, 2020, tommy wrote:
I am speaking of actual reported cases. [/quote]

Tommy, I don't doubt what you say about this occurrence or what the report may have said.

I don't know what the actual situation was or who the clown was that hit hard 20 against a big card, but surely you will admit that is moronic. Then again there are some total morons or whack jobs taking shots from time to time but they are not pros.

Also, a pro playing paper in any game, BJ, Poker. Gin, or whatever, would use his additional knowledge to finesse his plays, not hit his opponents over the head to where it would be obvious the cards were marked.

But tommy, you already know that. You have been involved in live gaming and know what you can and cannot do in a game. Further, if a pro who does something inexplicable and which makes no sense on the surface, he would do so because it is a setup and part of the overall scam and in that light makes perfect sense.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 9, 2020 04:09PM)
Well, I am not a professional, but if I were a professional, then my professional opinion would be, that fooling the camera is ****ing hard. :)
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Feb 10, 2020 01:41AM)
In 52 Steve used a "Speed Hop", a move designed to fool a camera because of the speed. If the guy in the video knew that concept he could become a blur if he did it really fast. Imagine him jumping at the deck of cards and switching it with a ferocious attitude and speed. I would suggest to use the same concept in marking cards, but.. I might be giving away too much of the store. I hope the shop owners are not angry at me.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 10, 2020 03:36AM)
What if they look at it in slow motion?
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Feb 10, 2020 04:13AM)
[quote]On Feb 10, 2020, tommy wrote:
What if they look at it in slow motion? [/quote]

It is about making it in between the frames.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 10, 2020 04:43AM)
How does the fast company know when the camera is in-between frames and time to do something quickly?
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Feb 10, 2020 06:42AM)
[quote]On Feb 10, 2020, tommy wrote:
How does the fast company know when the camera is in-between frames and time to do something quickly? [/quote]

The "Speed Hop/Shift" from 52 worked on premise that the surveillance cameras are cheap or old. That means that the cameras have a low frame rate. Video is just a collection of pictures and the framerate is a frame (picture) per second. That is why "Speed Hop/Shift" works (in theory), because on a surveillance camera it would look like a blur, and when you try to put it in a slow motion (increases the time per frame) or "look at each frame individually", you would not see the movement or see only blur, because the camera cannot catch up with your movements.

You just move fast, that is it. There is no timing. Only the speed of movement.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 10, 2020 08:51AM)
If one can move as fast as that plane that one cannot see hit the Pentagon it might work I guess.

:)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 10, 2020 12:32PM)
[quote]On Feb 9, 2020, Peterson wrote:

In 52 Steve used a "Speed Hop", a move designed to fool a camera because of the speed...I would suggest to use the same concept in marking cards, but...I might be giving away too much of the store. I hope the shop owners are not angry at me. [/quote]

Giving away the store implies that the inventory (knowledge) in the store has value. :D
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 10, 2020 08:04PM)
Some of these reported cases I have seen are hilarious.

“Describing himself as a ‘player and cheat with an international reputation’, Ampollini told a criminal court in nearby Grasse that he was proud of his ‘work’.”


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2434735/Parmesan-Stefano-Ampollini-Italys-high-tech-card-shark-gambler-cheats-French-casino-79k.html
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Feb 11, 2020 12:43AM)
How can he be proud of his work if he bought it from China and then got caught? This was interesting - "‘The Israeli’, who sniffed or snorted to signal what cards Ampollini should choose."

Sometime you wonder how truthful those articles and "confessions" are.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 11, 2020 04:56AM)
Did you hear what happened to the goldfish?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 11, 2020 07:46AM)
This thread is really getting deep and lost me sometime back. :confused:
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 11, 2020 02:25PM)
The betting police soon launched an investigation; listening to telephone conversations that revealed the two casino employees and their card-marking plans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bdLo6Xpag