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Topic: Crime reporting
Message: Posted by: funsway (May 31, 2020 09:06AM)
I haven't voice opinion of late, and do not expect many to support my view here ...

the entire circumstance and reactions to an arrested man dying in custody might be rightful cause for demonstration and protest, but ..

This morning news claimed "hundreds of protestors arrested in New York.' Wrong reporting only adding fuel to the fire.

I challenge anyone to show where a single person was arrested for exercising their First Amendment right to peaceable assemble and voice their opinion.

No, these people were rioters, arrested for breaking the law - committing acts of destruction of private property, acts or threats of violence against another.
Worse crime of all is looting. Some ancient cultures would execute looters on the spot. Maybe a good idea.

Looting has NOTHING to do with any protest or message in support of any cause. Certainly not about a death in another State. Not about race or poverty either.
It is about greed and opportunism. It is a crime against my guaranteed freedom from fear of having my person and property destroyed by another's greed.

And our news media treats such crimes as "normal reactions" sugar coated as "protest." Murder is wrong. Vandalism is wrong. Assault against another is wrong.

At least get the reporting correct. People are being arrested for breaking the law. How those police officers and looters and thugs are judged and held accountable
is matter for our courts, not news reporters.

I will always support another person's right to protest what they believe to be a wrongful act or attitude.

I will challenge any act of violence or destruction or deliberate misinformation.

This post is protest.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 31, 2020 10:10AM)
Https://mediacouncil.ca/complaint/
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 31, 2020 12:04PM)
Protest; from pro, before and + testari, testify. A protest was normally a verbal complaint made before the public. But today we have things called protest marches and so on from the American civil rights days. So it went from words to actions. Now we have protest riots and so on, which is all a far cry from the original meaning of protest. I think we will have to learn to live with it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 31, 2020 12:17PM)
I'm with you up until you seemingly overstate the part about your "guaranteed freedom from fear of having my person and property destroyed by another's greed".

I'm fairly certain those rights are not enshrined anywhere in any document from our founders.

I understand what you are expressing, and in sentiment am in agreement. But we can't just make things up and hold society to them either.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 31, 2020 01:36PM)
The main media normally try to paint every protester as a criminal, rather than the other way around. When a few people burn a building down that is big news. A peaceful protest is not news but they get tarred with the same brush by ignoring them. Also what we have in these situations are agitators who are sometimes police infiltrators. Things are not always what they seem to be. Personally I would not join any group of protesters or the like, because you do not know what you are getting into.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 31, 2020 03:47PM)
Ken, I take issue with a lot of the assumptions, omissions, and statements in your post, but unfortunately, past experience here shows that it's very difficult to have a coherent discussion on a matter like this on the Café and not get it shut down. So I'll just leave it at that. I disagree.
Message: Posted by: funsway (May 31, 2020 03:47PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I'm with you up until you seemingly overstate the part about your "guaranteed freedom from fear of having my person and property destroyed by another's greed".

[/quote]

just my spin on "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" I guess.

part comes from "Freedom from fear is listed as a fundamental human right according to The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. On January 6, 1941, United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt called it one of the "Four Freedoms" at his State of the Union, which was afterwards therefore referred to as the "Four Freedoms Speech."

Yup, probably overstated relative to what most folks feel. Maybe some will pay attention. No violence though. No one has that right.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (May 31, 2020 03:49PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, funsway wrote:
Worse crime of all is looting. Some ancient cultures would execute looters on the spot. Maybe a good idea.[/quote]

Seriously?? You can't think of any crime worse than looting? And executing them on the spot may be a "good idea"? For Pete's sake we don't even execute rapists or murderers "on the spot." Arrest and jail the looters for sure, but suggesting we simply kill them on the spot is beyond the pale.


[quote]Murder is wrong. Vandalism is wrong. Assault against another is wrong.[/quote]

Yes indeed. But they are not all equal.

And this article presents another interesting twist to the protests:
https://www.justsecurity.org/70497/far-right-infiltrators-and-agitators-in-george-floyd-protests-indicators-of-white-supremacists/

Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 31, 2020 05:22PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, landmark wrote:
Ken, I take issue with a lot of the assumptions, omissions, and statements in your post, but unfortunately, past experience here shows that it's very difficult to have a coherent discussion on a matter like this on the Café and not get it shut down. So I'll just leave it at that. I disagree. [/quote]

Yea.

BUT just so it is said I am just appalled that racism or any bigotry against others based on superficial issues and not content of character happening in 2020 is just SO TOUGH for me to get a handle on intellectually. I am IN NO WAY saying it does not happen! Oh lord no. But the fact that it DOES happen is just beyond my ability to reason out.

I will try to relate this story and keep in boundaries. I think the point is important. I have a friend who is a person of color. We were driving in Mississippi from one club to another and got pulled over by a State Trooper. Well the dismissive language he used to speak to my friend, who was driving, and the way this started to go was outright scary. I'm not kidding I was wondering if we might end up in a ditch. It is a MUCH longer story with all sorts of colorful language but suffice as to say it was scary for me.

Here is the issue. I am a white dude. I lived with this sort of thing for about 15 minutes. Yea real fear, but NOT 24/7. I am NOT trying to make excuses for ANYTHING done by ANYONE, and believe me with my cop background I get what is happening on each side. But to live in fear is not living. Of course nobody should riot and loot. I don't think this is the point even the looters and rioters are making. I justify nothing happening and condemn the murder of another human being.

All I wanted to do was add perhaps a slight bit of perspective is all. Not argue right/wrong.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 31, 2020 05:23PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, funsway wrote:
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I'm with you up until you seemingly overstate the part about your "guaranteed freedom from fear of having my person and property destroyed by another's greed".

[/quote]

just my spin on "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" I guess.

part comes from "Freedom from fear is listed as a fundamental human right according to The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. On January 6, 1941, United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt called it one of the "Four Freedoms" at his State of the Union, which was afterwards therefore referred to as the "Four Freedoms Speech."

Yup, probably overstated relative to what most folks feel. Maybe some will pay attention. No violence though. No one has that right. [/quote]

Yea that is why we don't get our "own spin" on our rights. They are quite specific and detailed.

No violence is absolutely correct.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 31, 2020 05:56PM)
Isn’t that what the protest is about; police killing people for nothing?
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 31, 2020 07:07PM)
Do peaceful protests work? No!

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/01/family-of-david-dungay-who-died-in-custody-express-solidarity-with-family-of-george-floyd
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (May 31, 2020 09:18PM)
Ladies and Gentlemen... I give you ~ The Human Race ~




[i]`sigh...[/i]
Message: Posted by: Tim Snyder (May 31, 2020 10:18PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen... I give you ~ The Human Race ~
[i]`sigh...[/i] [/quote]

Which is why I shake my head at the idiots who talk about colonizing Mars. If we can't get along on this planet with its fairly plentiful resources, how can any intelligent person believe there can be any semblance of justice/democracy on Mars with its non-existent resources. Mars will be a hellish dictatorship.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 31, 2020 10:35PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen... I give you ~ The Human Race ~




[i]`sigh...[/i] [/quote]
No such thing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 31, 2020 10:51PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Tim Snyder wrote:
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen... I give you ~ The Human Race ~
[i]`sigh...[/i] [/quote]

Which is why I shake my head at the idiots who talk about colonizing Mars. If we can't get along on this planet with its fairly plentiful resources, how can any intelligent person believe there can be any semblance of justice/democracy on Mars with its non-existent resources. Mars will be a hellish dictatorship. [/quote]

So little will change.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 1, 2020 01:55AM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea that is why we don't get our "own spin" on our rights. They are quite specific and detailed.

/quote]

It is interesting that you took my phrase "guaranteed freedom" and 'put the spin on it'
of "document of our founders." We have many legal guarantees not mentioned in documents drafted by our founders,
and certainly "founders" includes others than signers of specific documents.

This includes letters and documented speeches by members of Congress related to the creation of the Bill of Rights. Interesting read.

However, one document includes the words, " that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

Not very specific at all! It certainly states there are other rights not mentioned in that document. (not detailed)

I reserve the right to decide what "happiness" means for me, and the "pursuit" of same. That is not a "spin."

Yes, my "life" is probably more threatened by a person breaking the law by driving with a cellphone than a bigot looting in a distant city,
but it is a threat to my happiness just the same. I have experiences similar to your story on the "racial bias" side,
and others about excessive actions by police. I am appalled by both - even ashamed for humanity.

Was I more affected as to "violation of rights" when they happened to me, or when I observed the violation of other people?

Once, in a classroom setting, I was relating how I had saved a man's life. One student asked about the man's color.
This shocked me more than the horrors of the event. Even worse, no other student seemed to find the question terrible
or were afraid to say anything for fear of being bullied.

Given the apparent class attitude, how was I to respond? Prejudice may be natural to humans. Bigotry is learned.

I stand by my right to feel threatened and fearful back then and now.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Jun 1, 2020 02:46AM)
[quote]I reserve the right to decide what "happiness" means for me, and the "pursuit" of same.[/quote]

Those looters looked pretty happy to me and appear to have pursuit'ed as well...
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 1, 2020 03:49AM)
Difference is, Anima - is that I don't physically harm others, damage property and break the law.

If that distinction escapes you, I am even more saddened.
all personal rights must be mediated by respect for the rights of others in a society.

this concept is embodied in every culture as some form of the "golden rule" or even "an ye do no harm."

I will allow that you are just making an ironic joke as a way of masking your pain and revulsion.
but some may take your statement seriously, and take it as permission to violate someone else.

Is that what you desire - support of violence and lawlessness, even in jest?
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Jun 1, 2020 04:48AM)
[i]It's not us... it's them.
It's not our guys... but those guys.
It's not me... it's you.[/i]

My point is that there isn't any us nor them, ours or theirs, or you or me.

I avoid watching the news. It elevates my blood pressure too much. Unfortunately, I have a Facebook account and have seen the videos. I think when I turn 55 I'll reward myself by leaving FB, but I digress...

When I saw the video of the looters I thought...[i]"If that was my store I would be shooting every looter (even the pregnant woman) and follow them out to their car and redecorate the upholstry..."[/i] but, that is the beast in me. *

I would feel justified because the cops failed to stop them and forced my hand to protect (pursuit & happiness) my business and my God given rights. [b]BLAM! BLAM! BLAM![/b]

Let me throw in a straw man....

You're walking along in your nice shoes (you decide the style/make) and a kid jumps out with a gun and says [i]"Give me your shoes!"[/i] You say "Huh?" the kid then shoots you and takes your shoes.

Too completely different situations right? But in the end, both get killed over a pair of shoes.

I'm not saying you wanted to shoot the looters, nor am I asking. I'm just (poorly) trying to share a revelation.

I have no solution, but there isn't any us... or them...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 1, 2020 06:09AM)
Ond looter has been shot and killed as a matter of fact.

LAWYERS SAY DEADLY FORCE CAN'T BE USED TO FEND OFF LOOTERS, UNLESS THEY'RE ALSO THREATENING TO KILL ETCETERA.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Jun 1, 2020 06:23AM)
Right.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 1, 2020 07:42AM)
Considering all the guns and all the nuts on drugs in all the world, it is surprising that the no policemen have been shot dead in this uprising yet.

The good news is the cop responsible for all this has been charged and his wife is divorcing him in disgust.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 1, 2020 07:58AM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
[quote]I reserve the right to decide what "happiness" means for me, and the "pursuit" of same.[/quote]

Those looters looked pretty happy to me and appear to have pursuit'ed as well... [/quote]

Exactly why interpretation is not allowed individually.

As a society we through a process. Always have, always will.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jun 1, 2020 03:17PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2020, tommy wrote:
Ond looter has been shot and killed as a matter of fact.

LAWYERS SAY DEADLY FORCE CAN'T BE USED TO FEND OFF LOOTERS, UNLESS THEY'RE ALSO THREATENING TO KILL ETCETERA. [/quote]

Not quite true. The standard is reasonable fear of great bodily injury and an inability to retreat.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jun 1, 2020 04:03PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
[i]It's not us... it's them.
It's not our guys... but those guys.
It's not me... it's you.[/i]

My point is that there isn't any us nor them, ours or theirs, or you or me.

I avoid watching the news. It elevates my blood pressure too much. Unfortunately, I have a Facebook account and have seen the videos. I think when I turn 55 I'll reward myself by leaving FB, but I digress...

When I saw the video of the looters I thought...[i]"If that was my store I would be shooting every looter (even the pregnant woman) and follow them out to their car and redecorate the upholstry..."[/i] but, that is the beast in me. *

I would feel justified because the cops failed to stop them and forced my hand to protect (pursuit & happiness) my business and my God given rights. [b]BLAM! BLAM! BLAM![/b]

Let me throw in a straw man....

You're walking along in your nice shoes (you decide the style/make) and a kid jumps out with a gun and says [i]"Give me your shoes!"[/i] You say "Huh?" the kid then shoots you and takes your shoes.

Too completely different situations right? But in the end, both get killed over a pair of shoes.

I'm not saying you wanted to shoot the looters, nor am I asking. I'm just (poorly) trying to share a revelation.

I have no solution, but there isn't any us... or them... [/quote]


I appreciate the thought, but I disagree. If you're an arsonist, you're not one of my "us." You're a "them." If your response to disagreement is violence, you're a them. Innocent people's lives are being lost, livelihoods are being destroyed, and the tax bases and infrastructure of some of the areas that need the most help are being decimated and won't recover in a decade. People with serious mental health issues or life-threatening illnesses aren't getting medication, because people are burning drugstores.

It's not about color; I've seen righteously angry African Americans risking their safely to apprehend white rioters and looters and turn them over the police. I saw an African American woman lay into a group of white people in a Mercedes who were passing out bricks and trying to stir up violence. It's not about politics; I prefer people who reasonably disagree with me to violent or even irrational ones who agree.

It's important to recognize that there are different people out there with different goals. There are many people out there nonviolently expressing anger, frustration, hurt. They're an us.

There are many people out there who are just opportunistic looters. They're a them.

There are many people out there who are anarchists or might as well be, and are trying to violently overthrow the system. They're a them.

And there are many people out there with underdeveloped prefrontal cortices who think they're playing or watching a video game and have no concept of consequences. Some will fall on one side of the fence, and some the other.

I saw a woman put herself between a group of men with weapons and a store they were trying to break into, to prevent it from being looted, and I read of another woman arrested for throwing a Molotov cocktail at an occupied police car (both were white, for whatever that's worth). In my book, you'd better believe one of them is an us, and the other is a them.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Jun 1, 2020 10:12PM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:



I appreciate the thought, but I disagree... [/quote]


All valid points if you look at it that way. But what I my post is more about the human condition rather than right or wrong.

Our prisons are full, all across the world there is atrocity after atrocity, and though you nor I would do these [i]things[/i] the people that are doing are made of the same 'stardust' as you and I.

If we were to eliminate starvation, unemployment, and provide either opportunity or the basis of a fair share... would we still have crimes, abuse, and atrocities?

My gut reaction is to go the violence route. I don't like that.

I guess my point would be... even though we have all these nifty gadgets to make us more aware and provide gratification... we are confusing that sensation with enlightenment when; deep down, we are still that frightened angry beast.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 2, 2020 03:56AM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2020, Animated Puppets wrote:
[ we are confusing that sensation with enlightenment when; deep down, we are still that frightened angry beast. [/quote]

I can agree with a lot of what you have offered,
and "frightened beast" may be accurate. But anger is not a Limbic response or even a reasoned one.

It is trained, no? Where dose the anger or rage come from? Why is it accepted as a substitute for compassion or reason?

Why is it considered OK for people to vent anger in strange ways?

But,back to my original thoughts. I do not see where people are looting or destroying property out of anger or even fear.
They may be using the fear and anger of others as an excuse, but anger is not what drives them to commit crimes.

Anger did to drive the cop to kneel on the neck either. Fear maybe - but fear of what?

I wonder how he would have handled the situation had there been no crowd to perform before? But anger? No.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Jun 2, 2020 05:11AM)
My anger comment was directed at those who (beasts) are feeling justified in killing a looter, not the looters themselves. As stated earlier they (looters) appear rather happy.

Prosecute them? Absolutely. Sue the city for not responding properly (police)? Sure! But the comments I see on FB are mostly people from the shoot them crowd...

On that note I figured out a way to stop seeing those feeds. I will unfollow everyone and only see post when they tag me. Best way to preserve friendships and family relations.

A lot of bad things have been done with 'Justified' as their reasoning.

I still don't have a fix.
Message: Posted by: JoeJoe (Jun 2, 2020 06:19AM)
Boston tea party: whose side are you on? The British promising a crackdown on the rioters, or the Americans demanding freedom?

Hmmm....

-JoeJoe
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 2, 2020 06:22AM)
What I'm saying to you is this: when you're facing a loaded gun, what's the difference?
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 2, 2020 08:11AM)
[quote]On Jun 1, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:


I appreciate the thought, but I disagree. If you're an arsonist, you're not one of my "us." You're a "them." [b]If your response to disagreement is violence, you're a them.[/b] Innocent people's lives are being lost, livelihoods are being destroyed, and the tax bases and infrastructure of some of the areas that need the most help are being decimated and won't recover in a decade. People with serious mental health issues or life-threatening illnesses aren't getting medication, because people are burning drugstores.

It's not about color; I've seen righteously angry African Americans risking their safely to apprehend white rioters and looters and turn them over the police. I saw an African American woman lay into a group of white people in a Mercedes who were passing out bricks and trying to stir up violence. It's not about politics; I prefer people who reasonably disagree with me to violent or even irrational ones who agree.

It's important to recognize that there are different people out there with different goals. There are many people out there nonviolently expressing anger, frustration, hurt. They're an us.

There are many people out there who are just opportunistic looters. They're a them.

There are many people out there who are anarchists or might as well be, and are trying to violently overthrow the system. They're a them.

And there are many people out there with underdeveloped prefrontal cortices who think they're playing or watching a video game and have no concept of consequences. Some will fall on one side of the fence, and some the other.

I saw a woman put herself between a group of men with weapons and a store they were trying to break into, to prevent it from being looted, and I read of another woman arrested for throwing a Molotov cocktail at an occupied police car (both were white, for whatever that's worth). In my book, you'd better believe one of them is an us, and the other is a them. [/quote]

(re Bold) Not sure what "disagreement" you're referring to. But I don't think the majority of protesters would characterize their actions as a response to a mere disagreement (nor would I). To them it is a response to the [I]ultimate[/I] violence that was inflicted on George Floyd. Add to that the long history of unarmed black men killed by cops and it's no surprise that frustrations have reached the boiling point. 'Thoughts and prayers' just won't cut it any more. That being said, wanton rioting, destruction of property, and endangering innocent people is counterproductive, in my opinion. Anyway, good post - thanks Lobo.

Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 2, 2020 10:22AM)
Is anyone out there taking a position that somehow what happened was anything but wrong?
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 2, 2020 11:23AM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Is anyone out there taking a position that somehow what happened was anything but wrong? [/quote]

Apparently the president of the Minneapolis police union, for one:

[I]The president of the Minneapolis police union has written to its members calling George Floyd a “violent criminal”, describing those protesting over his death as terrorists and criticizing the city’s political leadership for not authorizing greater use of force to stop the rioting.

The letter drew a swift rebuke from a former Minneapolis police chief who called it a disgrace.

Lt Bob Kroll, president of the Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis, [b]defended the four officers involved in Floyd’s death[/b], including Derek Chauvin, who kneeled on Floyd’s neck for more than eight minutes in the lead-up to his death on 25 May.[/I]

FULL ARTICLE:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/01/bob-kroll-george-floyd-minneapolis-police-union-chief

Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 2, 2020 12:20PM)
Interesting if true.

Sorry but even as a former cop that video is nothing but a murder in progress.

Regardless of his position, riots are not the answer.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 2, 2020 02:14PM)
While not justifying the actions in any way. I wonder how much of the actions chosen - and decree of sustained action,
was a result of having a large number of spectators. Was the officer performing for the audience rather than following set procedures.

or, are they trained to over react when folks with cameras are about? There has been a hint that the officers thought the man might be dangerous,
as on crack or something - and therefor acted to "protect" the bystanders. (at least at first to justify the neck press).
However, apparently he was already in the car once - but I may be confused.

Regardless, I would be interested in knowing what the officers a TRAINED to do in various situations,
and to what degree the presence of observes influences choices. Also fear of lawsuits if they are perceived to do something wrong.

From my view, the expectations of both "peace officers" and people casually walking the streets has changed dramatically in recent decades.
How much is fear of injury? How much is fear of lawsuit or adverse publicity? How much is biased reporting for sensationalism?
How much is someones political or religious agenda? I still wave at police officers and make my house(s) available for emergency pit-stops.
I want it to stay that way - but I also won't admonish someone who flips off an officer (fear of being shot by the citizen more than by police)

Yet, I also see three cops cars stop to tell a hitch hiker he can't sleep by the underpass - city, county and state all flexing cop muscles.

I am not sure who is to blame, but feel that less than 50% of people choosing to vote has something to do with it.
If people refuse to take control of their own lives, someone else will - that's for sure.

Yes, I realize some people protesting and even rioting think they are taking control of sorts.
The question is why they gave it away in the first place?

So, Danny, in my usually wordy fashion, the officers were at fault here - but so is a lot of other factors. None of it right.
Everyone want to find someone to blame after the fact. Accountability means accepting control before the fact.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 2, 2020 03:22PM)
With all due respect you are starting to swim out of your depth. Nobody trains cops to "over react". In ANY situation. An officer performing a type of "show" for the audience and not controlling their suspect is not a useful public servant.

I am not aware of many departments that allow you to use almost fatal techniques. When training in the PR-24 the body is divided into zones of green, yellow and red. The meanings are fairly obvious. The LAPD eliminated their choke hold long ago as part of training. There is PLENTY of evidence that choke holds turn deadly. It is not even an opinion.

Choking a man who is handcuffed on his face with your knee on his neck is not really a great procedure. Doing it for 9 minutes is even worse. I am going to go ahead and doubt that it is taught. I am not sure but I don't think the penalty for buying cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill is death. He was a big guy with a gainful employment until Covid-19. He offers to get in the car. The officer hears him say he can't breathe. The officer never takes his knee off his neck. He not only is holding him down, he is digging it in. This is not policy ANYWHERE. It is banned by most police departments, and in Minneapolis only if he is actively resisting.

The officer has 17 complaints, and has been in several shootings. No other factors are in play. Not one. None. Sorry. This could have been avoided by following policy.

In reality the crowd was RESTRAINED at the scene! Listen to the people asking the cops to let him up. They are not out of control at all. They are being darn near great citizens. This one is on the shoulders of the cops. The only mitigating factor might be the way they were trained.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 2, 2020 03:47PM)
It seems policemen have now been shot.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/george-floyd-protests-trump-black-lives-matter-minneapolis-usa/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 2, 2020 06:31PM)
To be clear by "RESTRAINED" at the scene I mean not being disruptive in the least.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jun 2, 2020 07:29PM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
With all due respect you are starting to swim out of your depth. Nobody trains cops to "over react". In ANY situation. An officer performing a type of "show" for the audience and not controlling their suspect is not a useful public servant.

I am not aware of many departments that allow you to use almost fatal techniques. When training in the PR-24 the body is divided into zones of green, yellow and red. The meanings are fairly obvious. The LAPD eliminated their choke hold long ago as part of training. There is PLENTY of evidence that choke holds turn deadly. It is not even an opinion.

Choking a man who is handcuffed on his face with your knee on his neck is not really a great procedure. Doing it for 9 minutes is even worse. I am going to go ahead and doubt that it is taught. I am not sure but I don't think the penalty for buying cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill is death. He was a big guy with a gainful employment until Covid-19. He offers to get in the car. The officer hears him say he can't breathe. The officer never takes his knee off his neck. He not only is holding him down, he is digging it in. This is not policy ANYWHERE. It is banned by most police departments, and in Minneapolis only if he is actively resisting.

The officer has 17 complaints, and has been in several shootings. No other factors are in play. Not one. None. Sorry. This could have been avoided by following policy.

In reality the crowd was RESTRAINED at the scene! Listen to the people asking the cops to let him up. They are not out of control at all. They are being darn near great citizens. This one is on the shoulders of the cops. The only mitigating factor might be the way they were trained. [/quote]


Hey Danny...any insights as to what a typical number of complaints is in, say, a 5-year period for an officer in a large city?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 2, 2020 07:59PM)
This number will vary DRASTICALLY. A police officer doing his job and interacting with the public is a target for nonsense complaints. But there is a ratio of complaints that are investigated that have merit.

What I mean to say is once people learned that a complaint can follow a cop, right or wrong, often they are leveled JUST to get even. I will say 17 seems higher than average.

Most cops, and by most I mean a very large majority which is about 90% never even draw their firearm on duty, much less fire it. Even cops in hot zones don't really fire weapons much. It seems as if in this case this particular cop for whatever reason was around a lot when weapons were fired. I draw no conclusion from this other than to say again it seems higher than average.

I will tell you the following. REGARDLESS of what is being portrayed by the "if it bleeds it leads" crowd, the huge percentage of people who have interactions with law enforcement do not go bad. I am not saying some are not uncomfortable and that there are not problems. There ARE and they should be addressed when they happen. To paint the situation as it is being done is just stupid. This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal".
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 3, 2020 01:52AM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal". [/quote]

Care to clarify what you mean? The record is pretty clear that already this year there have been several unarmed black people brazenly killed by police. I could be mistaken but the death tally over the years seems to be the basis of the current protest. Not “one guy”.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 3, 2020 03:09AM)
I think one needs to look a little higher up the ladder. Who is this policeman’s superior officer, how many policemen is this superior officer in charge of, how many has this group of policemen killed and so on.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 3, 2020 03:41AM)
Riots seem to be more contagious than the virus. This is what I have been watching over here in Birmingham.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-birmingham-violence-video
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 3, 2020 04:11AM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal". [/quote]

Care to clarify what you mean? The record is pretty clear that already this year there have been several unarmed black people brazenly killed by police. I could be mistaken but the death tally over the years seems to be the basis of the current protest. Not “one guy”. [/quote]

How many interactions with cops do people of color have yearly and how many are killed?

Yes the number needs to be zero as a goal. But again painting this as "normal" fuels the problem not solves it.

I say this while absolutely unequivocally condemning these officers.

And please don't twist my words. This incident was one guy, or several. I do not in any way imply he is even close to the only one in the country.

Also have there been any unarmed white people killed by cops brazenly this year?
Answer is yes, a lot.

But raw statistics only fuel fear. It seems 24% of those killed by cops are black, while they are 13% of the population. But again without applying spin to induce fear or to justify it is a problem.

Living with the fear of an interaction with authority has to change. The fear is very real.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 3, 2020 04:58AM)
Actually that video I had just been watching was old.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 3, 2020 07:00AM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Living with the fear of an interaction with authority has to change. The fear is very real. [/quote]

I thought you had no right to be afraid. (couldn't resist)

Interesting phrase though. Is "fear of an interaction with authority" different from "living with an ...?"

"Fear of authority" is also different from "Fear of interacting" with same.

How one chooses to react to fear and of events "making fears come true" should be a focus of education, religious teachings and even political speech.
Yet, we see reactions to events claimed to be "fear based." Are they? Is prejudice fear based? Perhaps. But shifting to bigotry is a choice not based on fear. (opinion)

Yes, each person should look to the roots of any fear, but also their preparation to deal with it.
Fear is often defined as "False evidence appearing real," but also "The unwillingness to do the work to discover the truth."

We all seem to have some fear of the results of interaction with authority, if not fear of the authority. That is often because the results are unpredictable.

If I am pulled over on the highway, I expect to be asked for drivers license and registration. I expect to learn the reason why I was pulled over. I do not expect trouble,
but am still uneasy any time a person with a gun is talking on a radio about me. No guilt, not fearful, but certainly confused and wary.

If I was black passing through a mostly white town I might have different expectations and some fear or anxiety. TodayI think that is normal. Sad.

Yet, when I was at a jail visiting a friend in need, I over heard the Sheriff instructing his officers.
"Remember, every person out there is guilty of something. Your job is to find out what that is." Yes, I was suddenly very afraid.

I don't "live with that fear," however. I worked to get another man elected in his place.

That said, fear is very real for many today, and they have no idea of how to resolve it, dissipate it or change it.

How is change to happen? Not by politicians. I listen to speeches made in the last days and am more fearful than ever.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 3, 2020 08:44AM)
When you are of a color that is killed by authority at a rate far higher than you represent as a segment of the population it creates fear.

Playing word games on the internet and voting because you don't like one attitude from one sheriff isn't change, or at least change they are looking for and society needs.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jun 3, 2020 11:44AM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal". [/quote]

Care to clarify what you mean? The record is pretty clear that already this year there have been several unarmed black people brazenly killed by police. I could be mistaken but the death tally over the years seems to be the basis of the current protest. Not “one guy”. [/quote]

Probably a lot fewer than you'd think. More unarmed whites than blacks are killed by police, but I'm guessing you can't name any of them. When adjusted for population, on a per capita basis, it's true that it's more blacks than whites, but probably to a lesser extent than most people who haven't looked at the numbers would guess, and also probably way fewer (as a raw number total) than most people would guess. It wasn't an isolated incident, but Danny's quite correct that it's hardly the norm, either.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 3, 2020 02:13PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
And please don't twist my words. This incident was one guy, or several. I do not in any way imply he is even close to the only one in the country.
[/quote]
A. I’m not twisting your words. I’m asking a question. Don’t read into it anything more than that.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 3, 2020 02:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
on a per capita basis, it's true that it's more blacks than whites. [/quote]
You just obliterated your own attempt to minimize the outrage over the repeated and now very public execution of blacks at the hands of police.

As Danny has admitted, these killings need to be stopped. As do all killings of unarmed people by our law enforcement.

Those who use language and statistics to minimize the very real perspective of the black community appear to show a lack of concern for that community and indeed for the problem itself.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jun 3, 2020 04:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
on a per capita basis, it's true that it's more blacks than whites. [/quote]
You just obliterated your own attempt to minimize the outrage over the repeated and now very public execution of blacks at the hands of police.

As Danny has admitted, these killings need to be stopped. As do all killings of unarmed people by our law enforcement.

Those who use language and statistics to minimize the very real perspective of the black community appear to show a lack of concern for that community and indeed for the problem itself. [/quote]

I'm sorry if facts get in the way of the narrative of your agenda. It's ironic that this post immediately follows one of your asking that Danny not twist your words.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 3, 2020 08:09PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I'm sorry if facts get in the way of the narrative of your agenda. It's ironic that this post immediately follows one of your asking that Danny not twist your words. [/quote]

Well, those are your facts and your words. You posted them. They undermine your agenda. And I didn’t ask Danny to stop twisting my words. Go back and read what I ACTUALLY said.

Nothing ironic about it. Ya see, irony is Danny (apparently) jumping to the conclusion I was twisting his words. It is his favorite dance. But it is clear for all to see, I just asked a question. But it’s all good, Danny and I have some history, so I don’t blame him jumping right on the defensive from a simple question.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 3, 2020 08:12PM)
What if George Floyd told the cops that he had the virus and started spitting at them, then would the cops actions be regarded as self-defence?

Do you or do you not believe an accused is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty?

Are the protesters acting like a lynch mob?

Do protesters want justice and what is that?

Can this accused cop get a fair trial?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jun 3, 2020 08:21PM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 3, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:

I'm sorry if facts get in the way of the narrative of your agenda. It's ironic that this post immediately follows one of your asking that Danny not twist your words. [/quote]

Well, those are your facts and your words. You posted them. They undermine your agenda. [/quote]

No, they don't. They enhance my agenda. Because my agenda is simply the truth. I hope that even those who disagree with me strongly here would recognize that I wouldn't be stupid enough to cite that per capita figure if my agenda were as you claimed.



[quote]
And I didn’t ask Danny to stop twisting my words. Go back and read what I ACTUALLY said. [/quote]

Mea culpa; my misreading. Bummer. I love irony.
Message: Posted by: lynnef (Jun 4, 2020 02:39PM)
The manner of killing George Floyd was both horrific and symbolic. I heard a 19 year old Black student speaker in Oakland compare it to the yoking of necks of runaway slaves. The march in Oakland on Monday specifically announced it did not condone and it would distance itself from any violence or looting; but at the same time all speakers took the attitude that racism had to go. And that BLACK LIVES MATTER! There was an 8pm curfew; YET at 7:40pm the police shot teargas into the peaceful protest!!! Lynn
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 4, 2020 02:43PM)
All lives can't matter until they matter equally. It is sort of clear that there is still work to do on this front.

Violence helps nothing.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 5, 2020 05:43AM)
It is unfortunate that the race issues and violence issues are so commingled (back to my reporting theme)

a headline was briefly posted today : California: Vallejo police kill unarmed 22 year old." Tragic. The police were in their car and the boy kneeling with hands in air.

Notice there is no mention of color or race. We therefore know he was not black./colored.
You probably have to search to find this report. It certainly won't be headline for days and no one seems to be rioting as a result.

So, are folks protecting against police misconduct. Is the killing of a young man cause for concern (any man)

I agree with Danny's "until they matter equally." Yet it seems in the media that the death of a back man is more important than that of a non-black.

It also suggests that in the future when no mention of race is in ANY headline, we will still have headlines of people being killed -- by police, rioters and your neighbor.

If violence helps nothing, why is it the most consistent message in history? It is easier to steal than work.
It is OK to kill a person who stands in the way of your plan. It is Ok to loot under the guise of protesting.
Perhaps people don't want "help - just more bobbles and trinkets and whatever someone else has first.

When I see a young man approaching me on a street. I am not fearful because of the color of his skin. (don't assume any color)
I might be wary because of a bulge in his pocket or smoke rising from a building behind him.
I would become alarmed though, if he wears expensive sports shoes and gold jewelry with otherwise shabby clothes and a hungry glaze in his eyes.

But, I would become afraid and hide when six police cars arrive. Soon bullets will be flying everywhere and they are color blind.
Yup, before even a call out to this young man, the barrier cars bristled with shot guns, rifles and handguns. No 'peace officer" has an empty hand.

Six cars? 14 officers? All armed and ready against a single man standing alone in the street?

Now it is OK to guess the color of his skin.

I am more concerned over the training of these officers and their directed "standard procedures."

Did the radio call mention the color of this man's skin, or is every single person on the street to expect such a response.

The evening news report did mention a "response to a suspicious fire with no arrests being made." At least they did not kill him.
If they had shot him and I was discovered as a witness ...

Am I afraid of the police? No. Do I feel they must be armed in this country? Yes.

But, I am fearful in a society where pulling a gun is the first reaction to every situation,
and half of the available police force responds to a "suspicion call."
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 5, 2020 07:25AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, funsway wrote:


But, I would become afraid and hide when six police cars arrive.[/quote]


[quote]
Am I afraid of the police? No. [/quote]

?

Ron
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 5, 2020 08:10AM)
I thought I made that clear R.S. - it is not fear of police, or the concept of police in our society.

My concern is the apparent trained or directed over-response, and "guns drawn" approach to every situation.

to me, this means that the officers are operating out of fear themselves - meaning an emotional response is more likely that a reasoned one.
I am afraid of their fear, not that they are police. I would react the same if pick-up trucks of civilians carrying guns arrived instead.

I would hide from the expected random bullets, not to hide form the police.

Why are police today trained to react in this manner? How much of that is related to racial profiling or "neighborhood" bias?
How much is that some bully types are drawn to law enforcement? How much is because of sensational mews reporting?

No answers - just questions I used to ask and will ask tomorrow.

I am not afraid of guns either, but wary of the ability of that weapon to cause death driven by emotion or accident more than reason.
When I see a lot of guns in the hands of any group I do not want to be there.

Maybe "being afraid" is no the best terminology. Fear is based on assumptions. I know that police will often over-react and have gun in hand most readily.
Therefore, I stay home more and avoid crowds and "popular spots." That is not fear, but is related to being aware of volatile situations.

I am fearful of the future of our society when such situation seem to be on the increase.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2020 08:13AM)
Yea this not the time for rhetorical flourishes. Or to parse words and find our feelings.

Murdering innocent people is wrong. Looting and destroying minority owned businesses under the guise of peaceful protest is wrong.

The real problem is AS ALWAYS the issue has been coopted by people with another agenda and peaceful demonstrations have been turned.

Rioting is wrong as is the violence. Murder is wrong. And oddly enough the 4 officers involved have been charged. Now it has to play out.

If EQUALITY is desired the system must be used. Otherwise the goal is something else.

Now the time is to get to training issues and community outreach. Unless three goal is continued unrest.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 5, 2020 01:21PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, funsway wrote:
I thought I made that clear R.S. [/quote]

No, it wasn't too clear to me. But thanks for the further clarification, funsway.

Ron
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 5, 2020 01:29PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The real problem is AS ALWAYS the issue has been coopted by people with another agenda and peaceful demonstrations have been turned. [/quote]
Danny, can you clarify what you mean? I ask because your words from the very beginning appear to always ignore one part of the issue, while blaming the other. Admittedly my perception, so not saying that is what you mean to do. It is rather easy to accidentally use language which leans toward “them not us” and also easy to read into words a “them not us” perspective which is not meant by the author.

When EXACTLY the action being protested against is acted out time and time again across the country, that sure can look like a systemic issue. That sure can look like the norm. But we shouldn’t loose sight that every time there is an accolade of the many peaceful protests going on, that is not just a one sided accomplishment. That is both parts of the equation working as they should. All it takes to ruin that balance is one side or the other to escalate things beyond peaceful.

There are people, organized, coopting peaceful protests for their own, entirely different agendas.

There are also people, apparently organized, coopting peaceful crowd control, for What appears to be their own “violence and blood lust”.

The difference is, one group comes very clearly from outside their target group. The other group comes, very clearly, from within it, protected by it, and at times it appears fostered by it. That gives the appearance of a systemic problem.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 5, 2020 01:34PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea this not the time for rhetorical flourishes. Or to parse words and find our feelings. [/quote]

This seems directed to me, so I'll respond (correct me if it wasn't directed at me). How is a simple "?" a "rhetorical flourish"? Or a "parsing of words"?

Anyway, one could argue that now is the perfect time to find out what people are feeling. If not now, then when?


[quote]

If EQUALITY is desired the system must be used. [/quote]

Sure, but what if the system itself is biased/corrupt?


Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2020 02:34PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea this not the time for rhetorical flourishes. Or to parse words and find our feelings. [/quote]

This seems directed to me, so I'll respond (correct me if it wasn't directed at me). How is a simple "?" a "rhetorical flourish"? Or a "parsing of words"?

Anyway, one could argue that now is the perfect time to find out what people are feeling. If not now, then when?


[quote]

If EQUALITY is desired the system must be used. [/quote]

Sure, but what if the system itself is biased/corrupt?


Ron [/quote]


Nor directed to you sorry.

And if the system is corrupt then we have to watch this play out don't we? Do you propose we just assume it is and not let it work?

Why not see how it plays out? Then IF corruption rears its ugly head we move to fix it. Crazy huh?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2020 02:44PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The real problem is AS ALWAYS the issue has been coopted by people with another agenda and peaceful demonstrations have been turned. [/quote]
Danny, can you clarify what you mean? I ask because your words from the very beginning appear to always ignore one part of the issue, while blaming the other. Admittedly my perception, so not saying that is what you mean to do. It is rather easy to accidentally use language which leans toward “them not us” and also easy to read into words a “them not us” perspective which is not meant by the author.

When EXACTLY the action being protested against is acted out time and time again across the country, that sure can look like a systemic issue. That sure can look like the norm. But we shouldn’t loose sight that every time there is an accolade of the many peaceful protests going on, that is not just a one sided accomplishment. That is both parts of the equation working as they should. All it takes to ruin that balance is one side or the other to escalate things beyond peaceful.

There are people, organized, coopting peaceful protests for their own, entirely different agendas.

There are also people, apparently organized, coopting peaceful crowd control, for What appears to be their own “violence and blood lust”.

The difference is, one group comes very clearly from outside their target group. The other group comes, very clearly, from within it, protected by it, and at times it appears fostered by it. That gives the appearance of a systemic problem. [/quote]

You miss the point. I am not saying that any actions being protested are necessarily wrong. What they are attempting to bring awareness to needs attention.

I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places. In saying that three destruction of minority owned businesses HAPPENS ironically enough in protest of how minorities are treated. And this not how the SYSTEM treats them, this is how the PROTESTERS are treating them.

The people who show up with an alternative agenda then use peaceful protests as cover for violence. When this happens it takes away from the people with very real grievances.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 5, 2020 04:51PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places. In saying that three destruction of minority owned businesses HAPPENS ironically enough in protest of how minorities are treated. And this not how the SYSTEM treats them, this is how the PROTESTERS are treating them.

The people who show up with an alternative agenda then use peaceful protests as cover for violence. When this happens it takes away from the people with very real grievances. [/quote]
There is nothing “ironic” about it. It is calculated, planned, and executed for that exact purpose. To disrupt a protest of an issue people of color have by creating and the inciting further violence. This not, NOT, protesters generating these actions. This is a force outside the protesters which has come to undermine their peaceful protest.

I see you deftly skipped the point that the violence on the side of the protesters is instigated and fanned by an outside force while the violence on the side of the police is coming from inside the ranks of the police. THAT internal, systemic violence IS what this protest is about. The only irony might be that the police are putting that on full display, though I am cautious of using that word, as it generally is used to refer to humorous things. This topic is not humorous.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 5, 2020 06:39PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places.[/quote]

And many of these "planted" bricks claims appear to be false...

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/bricks-protests-fact-checking/507-9cb2c41b-ee24-4373-ac38-9d46a130b334

and:

https://www.insider.com/were-bricks-planted-at-protests-by-police-video-debunk-2020-6

Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 5, 2020 07:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am however saying there are pallets of bricks and incendiary devices just "showing up" in convenient places. In saying that three destruction of minority owned businesses HAPPENS ironically enough in protest of how minorities are treated. And this not how the SYSTEM treats them, this is how the PROTESTERS are treating them.

The people who show up with an alternative agenda then use peaceful protests as cover for violence. When this happens it takes away from the people with very real grievances. [/quote]
There is nothing “ironic” about it. It is calculated, planned, and executed for that exact purpose. To disrupt a protest of an issue people of color have by creating and the inciting further violence. This not, NOT, protesters generating these actions. This is a force outside the protesters which has come to undermine their peaceful protest.

I see you deftly skipped the point that the violence on the side of the protesters is instigated and fanned by an outside force while the violence on the side of the police is coming from inside the ranks of the police. THAT internal, systemic violence IS what this protest is about. The only irony might be that the police are putting that on full display, though I am cautious of using that word, as it generally is used to refer to humorous things. This topic is not humorous. [/quote]

I am sickened to be in the position of "defending" police here BUT one must ask just what they are supposed to do? These protests are being taken over by an outside force. Fine. Gotcha. I NEVER blamed those who peacefully appeal for a redress of grievance. But cops being ambushed, cops being murdered, cops being assaulted and business owners being burned out and beaten. You tell me what SHOULD the cops do? Let it just go? What is your solution?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 5, 2020 10:05PM)
The phrase "should do" reads as a dialectal trigger. Should or could ask why the officer(s) on video did not get arrested that night.

Today the NFL took a small step forward by recognizing player protest activity.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 5, 2020 11:20PM)
While looking for some answers to "why are police uniforms black rather than blue?" I came across [url=https://www.policeone.com/police-products/apparel/uniforms/articles/the-psychological-influence-of-the-police-uniform-bhN9cdehTsvjzbMh/]this[/url] site and noticed some contrast between what is discussed in the article and the gear advertised at the top of the page.

Maybe folks missed the announcement "Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts." hours before looting was the focus on news networks and then tales of bricks. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1266231100780744704
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 6, 2020 12:33AM)
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
But cops being ambushed, cops being murdered, cops being assaulted and business owners being burned out and beaten. You tell me what SHOULD the cops do? Let it just go? What is your solution? [/quote]
Danny, you seem very comfortable with the perspective of “isolated events, let the system take care of it”. In the case of cops being murdered (which seems to be getting under reported by your representation) how about you roll with that. Cop murdered. Find the person(s) responsible. Let the system handle it.

NOT charge into peaceful crowds of people smashing about with your shields while firing respiratory inflamants at people so the chicken can cross the road.

NOT shove peaceful senior citizens to the ground such that they strike their head and are knocked unconscious and bleeding on the sidewalk.

NOT lying about that incident to the point it gets inaccurately reported.

NOT making a fake photo op with peaceful protesters and then brutally charging them unprovoked hours later.

Simply find the person(s) responsible for this (without violating the Civil rights Of innocents) and let the legal system handle it.

The police have acted in grossly over violent manners. There are many factors at work contributing to that, no doubt. But they are starting to look like power mad bullies. And yup, that is what the news on one side wants to feed the masses.

Bottom line. There is an air... no, a stench... of vile aggression which has taken over this country. Some of that is coming from within, some from beyond our borders. Until we get THAT under control, until we understand and address that, there will be no peace.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 6, 2020 06:38AM)
From the accuracy of reporting, the original theme of this thread,
several commentary of BAC live this morning focus on cops' cultural mandate never to speak out against another cop,
and that even "good cops" are wrong in allowing abuses to happen.

There seems to be consensus of perception that cops lie regularly and bury evidence to cover up wrong doings,
and that they are trained and encouraged to do so. Some mentioned that rich, white folks have insisted on cops being brutal
and violent against "lesser social types" and are only now outraged that they might be effected.

The 57 cops who resigned over outrage of how their fellow officers were treated opens a new can of worms.

I need more info before forming an opinion, but feel much of the reporting may have an antagonistic bias --
that is, I do not trust the reported reasons for their actions with injected words like gestapo and "following orders" defense.

It was after curfew and these officers were ordered to "clear the square." What methods are allowed and what are excesses?
To the extent they seem "over aggressive," what has led to this behavior being normal or expected?
What do violators of the law have a right to expect by way or response by law enforcement?
Why don't I trust what is being reported by the media?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2020 09:58AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, Tom Cutts wrote:
[quote]On Jun 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
But cops being ambushed, cops being murdered, cops being assaulted and business owners being burned out and beaten. You tell me what SHOULD the cops do? Let it just go? What is your solution? [/quote]
Danny, you seem very comfortable with the perspective of “isolated events, let the system take care of it”. In the case of cops being murdered (which seems to be getting under reported by your representation) how about you roll with that. Cop murdered. Find the person(s) responsible. Let the system handle it.

NOT charge into peaceful crowds of people smashing about with your shields while firing respiratory inflamants at people so the chicken can cross the road.

NOT shove peaceful senior citizens to the ground such that they strike their head and are knocked unconscious and bleeding on the sidewalk.

NOT lying about that incident to the point it gets inaccurately reported.

NOT making a fake photo op with peaceful protesters and then brutally charging them unprovoked hours later.

Simply find the person(s) responsible for this (without violating the Civil rights Of innocents) and let the legal system handle it.

The police have acted in grossly over violent manners. There are many factors at work contributing to that, no doubt. But they are starting to look like power mad bullies. And yup, that is what the news on one side wants to feed the masses.

Bottom line. There is an air... no, a stench... of vile aggression which has taken over this country. Some of that is coming from within, some from beyond our borders. Until we get THAT under control, until we understand and address that, there will be no peace. [/quote]

The premise is flawed. Show me where ONE cop said he did any of those things because of the others being killed.

The aggression you seem so comfortable with is not from 99.99999% of cops.

You seem determined to justify looting and rioting.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2020 10:47AM)
Also Tom just tti be REALLY clear what percentage of interactions with law enforcement with people of color do you think are killing black citizens?

Is it an issue? Yea. But let's try to talk about it with statistics and facts. Yea crazy I know.

The media is fanning this fire in predictable form and the defund police calls from pretty mainstream sources are starting. All because of what percentage of interactions?
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jun 6, 2020 11:25AM)
What exactly is all this BS about? WHite cops killing a black man? Ever heard of Tony Timpa? didn't think so. He was a white man that was killed by 4 "white" police officers. He was handcuffed and face down with cops kneeling on his back. He couldn't breathe. He eventuall died laying on the ground while cops were laughing and mocking him. He was unconscious for several minutes with the cops still kneeling on his back. Paramedics came and when he was put on the stretcher they told the cops he was dead. THis happened almost a year ago. Stop turning this into a race war. It makes you look stupid and at best, your fueling hatred. Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them. And this is only one example. For every example you find, I can find two of my own..
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2020 12:42PM)
I guess my point is more that when cops kill anyone it is bad for everyone. Rioting and looting seem to hinder making that point.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 6, 2020 02:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The premise is flawed. Show me where ONE cop said he did any of those things because of the others being killed.

The aggression you seem so comfortable with is not from 99.99999% of cops.

You seem determined to justify looting and rioting. [/quote]

Danny, you have dipped into that mode where you are hallucinating again. I am NOT comfortable with the aggression of the cop mobs. My words are pretty clearly against that. Whatever your hallucination about what I say is, does not make it so.

Want to talk about percentages? Let’s talk about a very telling one.

“Data collected by the Washington Post on the use of lethal force by police officers since 2015 indicate that, relative to the proportion of the population, Blacks are over-represented among all those killed by police. As is evident in the figure below, (looking at the top blue bar) according to the US Census estimates, Blacks made up 12% of the population. However, from 2015 – 2019 they accounted for 26.4% of those that were killed by police under all circumstances. In other words, Blacks were the victims of the lethal use of force by police at nearly twice their rate in the general population. Whites make up the majority of victims of police use of lethal force (50.3%) from 2015 – 2019, BUT they also currently make up the majority of the population (61%). Asians make up about 5% of the US population but just 2% of the victims of the lethal use of force by police. Hispanics make up 18% of the US population and just over 18% of the victims of the use of lethal force by police. Native Americans make up 1% of the US population and 1.7% of the victims of the use of lethal force by police.”

From https://thesocietypages.org/toolbox/police-killing-of-blacks/

While I don’t blindly trust any media source these days, this info has been out and has not been disputed. There are attempts to steer the conversation away from it, attempts to minimize it, and attempts spin it, but it has never been disputed as accurate of the data.

So why is it that blacks might have an experience of being targeted by police?

It is clear when people try to wash away a problem with, “It’s not really that bad.” They even like to throw shade and say, “yeah killing is bad, but it’s not that bad is it?”

If whites were being killed at twice the rate of the percentage of the population they represent there would be tirade against that. Mostly because that would mean only white people are being killed by police. That would be weird wouldn’t it.
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 6, 2020 02:45PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I guess my point is more that when cops kill anyone it is bad for everyone. Rioting and looting seem to hinder making that point. [/quote]
And again, you are confusing the outside forces coming in to riot and loot, with the peaceful protesters.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2020 02:46PM)
Why name calling Tom? YOU said I was pretty comfortable with things I wasn't and all I did was exactly the same thing to YOU in order to see if it could be done without you overreacting. Obviously not.

What cop mobs? What do you mean by that exactly?
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Jun 6, 2020 02:46PM)
I'm sitting in an asparagus field, in northern Germany.
I'm seeing 'protesters' ride by, on the trains...
'Protesters', in the news,...newspapers,..on the radio,
...around the World,
shouting for Afro-Americans.

When my Bulgarian and Romanian co-workers ask me,,..
i play stupid.
.."No idea."

But, in the back of my head,
...in my soul,
i think....

"According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of White victims killed by Whites and 93% of African American victims killed by African Americans.[60][61][62]

In 2013, African Americans accounted for 52.2% of all murder arrests, with Whites 45.3% and Asians/indigenous Americans 2.5%. Of the above, 21.7% were Hispanic.[63][64]

Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims and arrestees in the US while Whites (including Hispanics) account for the majority of non-gun homicide victims and arrestees. Of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007 and 2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% indigenous American. Non-gun homicides represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were also over-represented in such homicides, although only by about 2.5 times their share of the general population.[65] Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007 to 2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% indigenous American.[66]

It's taken from wiki's lastest info,.."Race and Crime in the U.S.'.

I feel a bit ashamed,.,
but,..
i believe until these numbers are faced,.
by ALL,...
the masquerade will continue.

I believe, as well,
there IS NOT a 'racial' discrepency here,..
but a 'cultural' one.
Gallagher
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2020 02:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This number will vary DRASTICALLY. A police officer doing his job and interacting with the public is a target for nonsense complaints. But there is a ratio of complaints that are investigated that have merit.

What I mean to say is once people learned that a complaint can follow a cop, right or wrong, often they are leveled JUST to get even. I will say 17 seems higher than average.

Most cops, and by most I mean a very large majority which is about 90% never even draw their firearm on duty, much less fire it. Even cops in hot zones don't really fire weapons much. It seems as if in this case this particular cop for whatever reason was around a lot when weapons were fired. I draw no conclusion from this other than to say again it seems higher than average.

I will tell you the following. REGARDLESS of what is being portrayed by the "if it bleeds it leads" crowd, the huge percentage of people who have interactions with law enforcement do not go bad. I am not saying some are not uncomfortable and that there are not problems. There ARE and they should be addressed when they happen. To paint the situation as it is being done is just stupid. This was ONE guy, or a few, doing a horrid thing. It needs to be addressed. It needs to be condemned. It does not need to be portrayed as "normal". [/quote]

Tom before you continue to twist my words and spin meaning here is the point.

I'm done. You are no longer looking for clarification you are trying to twist things.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 6, 2020 02:56PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, gallagher wrote:
I'm sitting in an asparagus field, in northern Germany.
I'm seeing 'protesters' ride by, on the trains...
'Protesters', in the news,...newspapers,..on the radio,
...around the World,
shouting for Afro-Americans.

When my Bulgarian and Romanian co-workers ask me,,..
i play stupid.
.."No idea."

But, in the back of my head,
...in my soul,
i think....

"According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of White victims killed by Whites and 93% of African American victims killed by African Americans.[60][61][62]

In 2013, African Americans accounted for 52.2% of all murder arrests, with Whites 45.3% and Asians/indigenous Americans 2.5%. Of the above, 21.7% were Hispanic.[63][64]

Blacks account for the majority of gun homicide victims and arrestees in the US while Whites (including Hispanics) account for the majority of non-gun homicide victims and arrestees. Of the gun murder victims in the United States between 2007 and 2016, 57% were black, 40.6% white (including Hispanic), 1.35% Asian, 0.98% unknown race and 0.48% indigenous American. Non-gun homicides represented about 30% of total murders in the time period. Blacks were also over-represented in such homicides, although only by about 2.5 times their share of the general population.[65] Of the non-gun murder victims in the United States between 2007 to 2016, 61.5% were white (including Hispanic), 32.9% black, 2.29% Asian, 1.89% unknown race and 1.43% indigenous American.[66]

It's taken from wiki's lastest info,.."Race and Crime in the U.S.'.

I feel a bit ashamed,.,
but,..
i believe until these numbers are faced,.
by ALL,...
the masquerade will continue.

I believe, as well,
there IS NOT a 'racial' discrepency here,..
but a 'cultural' one.
Gallagher [/quote]

These are inconvenient for those with an agenda.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 6, 2020 03:18PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, funsway wrote:


The 57 cops who resigned over outrage of how their fellow officers were treated opens a new can of worms.

I need more info before forming an opinion, but feel much of the reporting may have an antagonistic bias --
that is, I do not trust the reported reasons for their actions with injected words like gestapo and "following orders" defense.

[/quote]

As far as I've seen, the "following orders" defense came from the union leader, directly. Today, further info:


"The Buffalo police officers’ union told members they would no longer be covering legal fees related to the protests"

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/5/57-buffalo-cops-resign-from-team-after-two-are-sus/
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 6, 2020 04:33PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:
What exactly is all this BS about? WHite cops killing a black man? Ever heard of Tony Timpa? didn't think so. He was a white man that was killed by 4 "white" police officers. He was handcuffed and face down with cops kneeling on his back. He couldn't breathe. He eventuall died laying on the ground while cops were laughing and mocking him. He was unconscious for several minutes with the cops still kneeling on his back. Paramedics came and when he was put on the stretcher they told the cops he was dead. THis happened almost a year ago. Stop turning this into a race war. It makes you look stupid and at best, your fueling hatred. [/quote]


There are some significant differences between the Floyd killing and the Timpa killing. First, the Timpa incident occurred in 2016 – not a year ago. It took 3 years and much battling for the police bodycam footage to be released by court order. Had there been realtime eyewitness footage (as in Floyd's case), the immediate aftermath would likely have been much different. However, it’s hard to evoke the same reaction to something that happened more than 2 years ago as it is to something that just happened and has garnered so much media attention. Timpa has long been buried, while Floyd hadn’t even had a funeral service. Second, the officer was kneeling on Timpa’s back, arguably less potentially deadly than kneeling on the neck. Third, the medical examiner at the time wrote that Timpa’s death was caused by a combination of “cocaine and stress from physical restraint, sometimes referred to as excited delirium syndrome.” The independent autopsy report on Floyd says he died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."

Of course, none of this is meant to minimize or justify Timpa's death. It's tragic and it should not have occurred. Just pointing out some key differences.

[quote]

Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them. [/quote]

Why “especially white” cops?

By the way, and as you already noted, Timpa was killed by "white" cops.

Ron
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 7, 2020 02:15AM)
With the cops it‘s more of a class thing: when was last time the cops killed a millionaire?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 7, 2020 06:30AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, tommy wrote:
With the cops it‘s more of a class thing: when was last time the cops killed a millionaire? [/quote]

not sure, but I have known rich folks of color pulled over in obvious racial profiling. After being hassled with some lie cover story,
he was released with a warning, "might be better to take another route home."

The officer had no idea that the man was a millionaire. He could have been shot. Wealth is not the issue.

Yes, if he was driving a nice car and wearing a tuxedo he might have been let go with less verbal abuse,
but he would have been stopped just the same to make sure he wasn't a drug dealer.

Profiling by apparent wealth is just as bad as by race. The key is how the officer is prepared to act.

When this happened years ago the officer approached with only a note pad in hand.
Today they would have hand on gun or have it drawn.

Th likelihood of someone getting shot (me in the back seat) is greater today.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jun 7, 2020 06:45AM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Jun 6, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:
What exactly is all this BS about? WHite cops killing a black man? Ever heard of Tony Timpa? didn't think so. He was a white man that was killed by 4 "white" police officers. He was handcuffed and face down with cops kneeling on his back. He couldn't breathe. He eventuall died laying on the ground while cops were laughing and mocking him. He was unconscious for several minutes with the cops still kneeling on his back. Paramedics came and when he was put on the stretcher they told the cops he was dead. THis happened almost a year ago. Stop turning this into a race war. It makes you look stupid and at best, your fueling hatred. [/quote]


There are some significant differences between the Floyd killing and the Timpa killing. First, the Timpa incident occurred in 2016 – not a year ago. It took 3 years and much battling for the police bodycam footage to be released by court order. Had there been realtime eyewitness footage (as in Floyd's case), the immediate aftermath would likely have been much different. However, it’s hard to evoke the same reaction to something that happened more than 2 years ago as it is to something that just happened and has garnered so much media attention. Timpa has long been buried, while Floyd hadn’t even had a funeral service. Second, the officer was kneeling on Timpa’s back, arguably less potentially deadly than kneeling on the neck. Third, the medical examiner at the time wrote that Timpa’s death was caused by a combination of “cocaine and stress from physical restraint, sometimes referred to as excited delirium syndrome.” The independent autopsy report on Floyd says he died of "asphyxiation from sustained pressure."

Of course, none of this is meant to minimize or justify Timpa's death. It's tragic and it should not have occurred. Just pointing out some key differences.

[quote]

Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them. [/quote]

Why “especially white” cops?

By the way, and as you already noted, Timpa was killed by "white" cops.

Ron [/quote]

Ok. When you say it's "hard to evoke the same reaction to something that happened two years ago"...
Why are people still enraged at something that happened 100 years ago and didn't even effect them? And still touting "hands up don't shoot". That was from years ago. Your point is invalid.

Also the first autopsy report said differently and when the family paid for their own medical examiner, it changed if course.

Also lay on the ground. Have someone kneel on the back of your neck. Then have someone kneel on your back. Much harder to take a full breath when your lungs are getting compressed by someone's weight.

Not saying this death is ok AT ALL. It's sad and the cops involved need to be punished accordingly. But I don't think Floyd was "choked" to death. I think it was more a knee on the corotid artery that caused his death. Either way he died. Sad indeed.

And I brought up the "white thing" because this is a police brutality thing, NOT a race thing that people keep turning it into. There is a video of a black police officer choking a black man against his car yelling "make me", provoking the mann to fight back. The man is heard trying to say he can't breathe. Again, you haven't seen that one.

Point is, it happens with EVERY race. This is turning into much more than it actually is. And yes, there are plenty examples of Asians, whites, Hispanics, etc dying the same way AND CAUGHT ON FILM that goes unheard of. All you have to do is search and they are out there. Sadly they will never appear in the media and it just fuels the frustration of all the people that ask "why not"
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 7, 2020 08:41AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:

Ok. When you say it's "hard to evoke the same reaction to something that happened two years ago"...
Why are people still enraged at something that happened 100 years ago and didn't even effect them? And still touting "hands up don't shoot". That was from years ago. Your point is invalid. [/quote]

What are you referring to that happened 100 years ago that people are still enraged about and didn’t even affect them?

Do you think that we would have seen the same unrest in the streets over the past week and a half if the George Floyd incident had never occurred?


[quote]

Also the first autopsy report said differently and when the family paid for their own medical examiner, it changed if course.[/quote]

The Medical Examiner's Office concludes the cause of death was "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

So either way you get “neck compression/pressure.”


[quote]
Also lay on the ground. Have someone kneel on the back of your neck. Then have someone kneel on your back. Much harder to take a full breath when your lungs are getting compressed by someone's weight. [/quote]

Well then thank goodness the cop wasn't kneeling on Floyd's back! Who knows what could have happened if he did.

Floyd said repeatedly “I can’t breathe.” The video shows the cop kneeling more on the side of Floyd’s neck – not the back of the neck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve8S0rGd9-c

But either way, I think most people would rather take their chances with a knee on their back rather than the fragile neck/throat area.


[quote]

Not saying this death is ok AT ALL. It's sad and the cops involved need to be punished accordingly. But I don't think Floyd was "choked" to death. I think it was more a knee on the corotid artery that caused his death. Either way he died. Sad indeed. [/quote]

Who is saying he was “choked” to death? And why is that semantic triviality even relevant in light of what amounts to murder by cop?


[quote]
And I brought up the "white thing" because this is a police brutality thing, NOT a race thing that people keep turning it into. [/quote]

When you say “Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them”, YOU are making it a race thing. Why “especially” white cops?


[quote]

There is a video of a black police officer choking a black man against his car yelling "make me", provoking the mann to fight back. The man is heard trying to say he can't breathe. Again, you haven't seen that one. [/quote]

Can you please provide the video? Thanks. And what about it should lessen the outrage over Floyd?


[quote]

Point is, it happens with EVERY race. This is turning into much more than it actually is. And yes, there are plenty examples of Asians, whites, Hispanics, etc dying the same way AND CAUGHT ON FILM that goes unheard of. All you have to do is search and they are out there. Sadly they will never appear in the media and it just fuels the frustration of all the people that ask "why not" [/quote]

Why do you suppose these other incidents that were “caught on film” did not garner as much attention as the Floyd incident?



Ron
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jun 7, 2020 09:02AM)
Re read the first autopsy report.

And here is an example of the videos I'm referring to.

https://youtu.be/d4lYGl2roDQ
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 7, 2020 09:38AM)
It is my understanding that in Britain a death sentence by hanging can either state, "Hung by the neck until dead." or "Hanged by the neck."
The difference is in the placement of the large knot. In the first case the knot is in back and death is my strangulation/loss of air.
In the second the knot is on the side and the neck is broken - death my neural shock.

But, to the public the accused died by legal means. The accused cannot tell which method is better.
Yet, there is a difference in the perceived amount of suffering and pain that might ensue - a matter left to the judge.

So, does it really matter which form of excessive force was applied? Everyone can agree that it was excessive and it resulted in death about a possibly bad bill.

Surely the issues of race and military posturing and accurate news reporting and overreacting protestors are more important.
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jun 7, 2020 09:44AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, funsway wrote:
It is my understanding that in Britain a death sentence by hanging can either state, "Hung by the neck until dead." or "Hanged by the neck."
The difference is in the placement of the large knot. In the first case the knot is in back and death is my strangulation/loss of air.
In the second the knot is on the side and the neck is broken - death my neural shock.

But, to the public the accused died by legal means. The accused cannot tell which method is better.
Yet, there is a difference in the perceived amount of suffering and pain that might ensue - a matter left to the judge.

So, does it really matter which form of excessive force was applied? Everyone can agree that it was excessive and it resulted in death about a possibly bad bill.

Surely the issues of race and military posturing and accurate news reporting and overreacting protestors are more important. [/quote]

Well said
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 7, 2020 11:11AM)
What if the two of them worked at the same club? What if there was a preexisting beef between them? One that transcends the race issue and was just one guy who hated another guy? Well the charges would be upgraded to premeditated I should imagine, and then all the looting and rioting seems to be for nothing huh?

Interesting hypothetical is also what if the patrons of the bar complained about the way the off duty cop handled them? Seems as if this guy was bad news on almost all of his jobs.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 7, 2020 11:26AM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:
Re read the first autopsy report.[/quote]

You mean the one that I already mentioned? The Medical Examiners report??

[quote]

And here is an example of the videos I'm referring to.

https://youtu.be/d4lYGl2roDQ [/quote]

Thanks for that. What is the context? Who is the man? When and where did it occur? Did he die at the hands of the police? What was he accused of? And most importantly, what about it should lessen the outrage over Floyd’s death?

What are you referring to that happened 100 years ago that people are still enraged about and didn’t even affect them?

Do you think that we would have seen the same unrest in the streets over the past week and a half if the George Floyd incident had never occurred?

Who is saying he was “choked” to death? And why is that semantic triviality even relevant in light of what amounts to murder by cop?

When you say “Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them”, why did you say “especially” white cops, as if hating white cops is more offensive than hating cops of color?

Why do you suppose these other incidents that were “caught on film” did not garner as much attention as the Floyd incident?

Ron
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jun 7, 2020 12:15PM)
Lol. I had a long winded response but decided to just leave it out. You already know the answers to the questions you're asking..

Bottom line is this is turning into a "race" war and becoming more about a white man killing a black man then just a cop killing someone do to excessive force.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 7, 2020 04:57PM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:
Lol. I had a long winded response but decided to just leave it out. You already know the answers to the questions you're asking.. [/quote]

No, I don’t.

[quote]
Bottom line is this is turning into a "race" war and becoming more about a white man killing a black man then just a cop killing someone do to excessive force. [/quote]

But you yourself make it a “race war” when you say [I]“Those of you who hate cops and especially white ones, god help you if you ever need them.”[/I] Do you see how the sentiment conveyed in your statement just fans the flames? Why do you value white cops more than cops of color?

Ron
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 7, 2020 05:54PM)
I mentioned, the two worked in the same club and that there might something personal in it, some time ago. That is what a lot of black people are saying about it but it seems to have been censored, so I better not say it again.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 23, 2020 12:45PM)
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:
Lol. I had a long winded response but decided to just leave it out. You already know the answers to the questions you're asking..

Bottom line is this is turning into a "race" war and becoming more about a white man killing a black man then just a cop killing someone do to excessive force. [/quote]

Totally agree Bobby. Funny how in the mainstream media you never hear about blacks killing blacks at record levels in Chicago. Doesn't fit the agenda. Bottom line is over 99% of cops are good. You will always have bad in everything, that's nature. Yes, I agree there has to be a way to rid/stop the less than 1% of bad cops. It's totally unacceptable and needs to be addressed. It's rather interesting how rioting and destroying of businesses is portrayed as ok in the mainstream media and gets very minimal attention and that there is no backlash from the media regarding "defunding" the police. Crazy times were are living in.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 23, 2020 03:05PM)
How is that Utopia thing working out for the Chop thingie? Pretty great huh? Built a wall FIRST THING, then set armed guards and regulate who goes in and out.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 24, 2020 02:49PM)
[quote]On Jun 23, 2020, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jun 7, 2020, Bobby Forbes wrote:
Lol. I had a long winded response but decided to just leave it out. You already know the answers to the questions you're asking..

Bottom line is this is turning into a "race" war and becoming more about a white man killing a black man then just a cop killing someone do to excessive force. [/quote]

Totally agree Bobby. Funny how in the mainstream media you never hear about blacks killing blacks at record levels in Chicago. Doesn't fit the agenda. Bottom line is over 99% of cops are good. You will always have bad in everything, that's nature. Yes, I agree there has to be a way to rid/stop the less than 1% of bad cops. It's totally unacceptable and needs to be addressed. It's rather interesting how rioting and destroying of businesses is portrayed as ok in the mainstream media and gets very minimal attention and that there is no backlash from the media regarding "defunding" the police. Crazy times were are living in. [/quote]

From
https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/06/stop-using-black-on-black-crime-to-deflect-away-from-police-brutality.html

[quote]
[b]Stop using ‘black-on-black’ crime to deflect away from police brutality[/b]

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- “Why aren’t we talking about black on black crime?”

If you’ve expressed support for Black Lives Matter, spoken out against police brutality, or written a modest column in the past few weeks, you’ve probably been asked (or chastised) for not mentioning how many more black people kill other black people compared to the police.

There are answers to the question, “Why aren’t we talking about black on black crime?” But critics of Black Lives Matter don’t want to hear them.

If they cared, they’d be asking about crime within the African American community year-round, as many black activists and neighborhood leaders do. But as Doughboy told Tre in 1991’s “Boyz N the Hood” (and it’s still true today), “Either they don’t know, don’t show, or don’t care about what’s going on in the hood.”

When an opponent of Black Lives Matters talks about “blacks killing blacks” it’s almost always to deflect attention away from police brutality. As if one issue makes the other more acceptable.

When someone commits an act of terrorism against in the United States, which rightfully leads to anger and sadness, no one asks, “Well what about how many Americans kill other Americans each year?” Because that would crazy, now wouldn’t it?

But, by all means, let’s talk about “black on black crime.” You’ve probably heard a statistic like this before – The majority of black people murdered are killed by other black people. That’s true, but also misleading. The overwhelming majority of white murder victims each year are killed by white assailants. So, when’s the last time you heard the term “white on white crime?”

As shocking as it may be for some to hear, people generally commit crimes against people they know or live near. If you want to have a real discussion about crime, let’s talk about the factors that contribute to it happening in the first place.

White supremacists have attributed the fact that crime rates are higher among African Americans than whites to people of color being biologically more prone to violence. In reality, crime is directly linked more to poverty than race or any other factor.

According to the Bureau for Justice Statistics, People living in households with income below the federal poverty threshold are twice as likely to commit a violent crime than people in high-income households, regardless of race.

We live in a country where the poverty rate is more than twice as high among black Americans than white. And that has as much to do with 400 years of systematic racism than anything else.

White supremacists will tell you slavery was abolished more than 150 years ago. So, get over it. Yet, just as that was a hard sell to African Americans during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, it’s equally hard to accept 30 years after Rodney King and the L.A. Riots and weeks removed from the deaths of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd.

Thomas Abt, a senior research fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, writes:

[I]“Racial disparities in crime and punishment are real, but they have been produced in large part by a sustained campaign of persecution by whites against disempowered minorities, particularly African Americans. Officially, that effort has ended; overt racial discrimination has been prohibited by law for decades. Nevertheless, the brutal legacy of that campaign — racism, segregation, concentrated poverty, and violence — remains.”[/I]

None of this necessarily means a black person being killed by another black person is more or less significant than if they were killed by a police officer. Death is death and murder is murder.

Yet, what if it were captured on video? Could a victim’s family take solace in knowing evidence exists for that person to be prosecuted? That’s usually the case. But that may not matter for George Floyd. It certainly didn’t matter in the cases of Eric Garner or Tamir Rice.

What is someone supposed to do when you can be murdered legally? When police can harass you and then choke you out because you’re selling loose cigarettes or when a cop can kneel on your neck as you cry out “I can’t breathe" while his colleagues stand by and watch.

That’s why police brutality is its own unique horror. And African Americans are two and half times more likely than whites to be killed by law enforcement.

When you step outside every day knowing you’re twice as likely to be killed by someone sworn to protect you just because of the color of your skin, you’re dealing with a different type of fear. Don’t let statistics, ignorance or flat out racism cloud that.[/quote]

Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 24, 2020 03:49PM)
Ron how about a straight answer from you just for a change? HOW MANY COPS do you believe are brutal and killing people of color? What percentage? Just give us a number. Don't give it a lot of qualifier bs nonsense. Just tell us WHAT PERCENTAGE of cops are doing this please.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 24, 2020 04:44PM)
Https://www.gq.com/story/how-violent-police-culture-perpetuates-itself

"Policing is a relatively dangerous job, but less deadly than working as a roofer or driving a cab. Garbage collectors are killed at twice the rate of police"
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 24, 2020 06:34PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ron how about a straight answer from you just for a change?[/quote]

Hey Danny, what about my post elicited that sort of retort?? When have I not given a straight answer? Anyway, what in that post do you disagree with?

By the way, I noticed you didn’t admonish Bobby for not giving a straight answer (or any answer) when I asked him more than once to explain his “especially white cops” comment. Why is that?

[quote]

HOW MANY COPS do you believe are brutal and killing people of color? What percentage? Just give us a number. Don't give it a lot of qualifier bs nonsense. Just tell us WHAT PERCENTAGE of cops are doing this please. [/quote]

Why that framing? Why “brutal and killing people of color”, as if evil predators are systematically and boldly hunting down their prey? I think that whatever racism exists is a lot more subtle and more nuanced than that. A more accurate framing might be “How many cops are influenced in who they profile/apprehend/restrain by their prejudices? And to what extent does the color of one’s skin dictate how much force to use in any given situation?

But to answer the question as you asked it, I have no idea. I think the number/percentage is quite low, but whatever it is, it’s obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. I think most cops are good and deserve respect. They do a thankless job and we need to recognize that. But we also need to recognize that simply being a minority in this country seems to automatically put you at a disadvantage when it comes to encounters with law enforcement. If you would much rather be white when getting stopped or pulled over for something by a cop (and I think almost everyone would) then you have to reflect on why that’s the case.


Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 24, 2020 07:48PM)
Yea OK how about the number of unarmed people of color killed by cops then?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 24, 2020 07:49PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Https://www.gq.com/story/how-violent-police-culture-perpetuates-itself

"Policing is a relatively dangerous job, but less deadly than working as a roofer or driving a cab. Garbage collectors are killed at twice the rate of police" [/quote]

Nice straw man.

Being Pope is pretty dangerous as well. Almost 100% die in office. Heck so is Supreme Court Justice.

How many straw men do we need?

Also just to be clear how many roofers are killed by other people on the job as a DIRECT RESULT of being a roofer? ? How about garbage collectors? I mean if you want to make a comparison please at least make it relevant.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 24, 2020 08:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea OK how about the number of unarmed people of color killed by cops then? [/quote]


Good question.

[I]Mapping Police Violence, a crowdsourced database that includes deaths by vehicle, tasering or beating in addition to shootings, estimates 25 police killings of unarmed Black men in 2019.[/I]

(obviously, if you include ALL minority killings – not just blacks - then the number would be higher)

Full Article:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/23/fact-check-how-many-unarmed-black-men-did-police-kill-2019/5322455002/

Also:
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/data-show-deaths-from-police-violence-disproportionately-affect-people-of-color

Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 24, 2020 08:44PM)
25. 25 is a horrible number. It should be zero without a question.

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?

Also lets look at how many cops are killed in 2019. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/us/2019-officers-killed-trnd/index.html

Go ahead and spin this for me if you will.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 25, 2020 12:34AM)
It's relevant to indicate that police seem to consider their tasks life threatening at a rate disproportionate to actual threat level. I think that is actually highly relevant. Using excessive force against perceived threat.

I also think much of the public has in the past considered policing generally more dangerous than garbage collection. I know I was somewhat surprised by the reference cited.

And for the garbage collector, some of that danger, of course, comes from the behaviour of others- not stopping their vehicle for the truck, racing around it and hitting the garbage man, for example. Or garbage truck driver backing up and running over pick up guy. Slightly less direct: hazardous wastes tossed in the trash.

Re. cab drivers: "In addition to the inherent risks of collisions on the roadway, taxi drivers also need to worry about potential altercations with their clients — who in most cases are complete strangers. Some 43.3% of workplace deaths for full-time taxi drivers and chauffeurs in 2016 were attributable to violence at the hands of another individual. Half of all deaths were roadway collisions."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/2018/01/09/workplace-fatalities-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Jun 25, 2020 07:31AM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
25. 25 is a horrible number. It should be zero without a question.

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?[/quote]

I don’t know. Do you? And why is it relevant? How does that data help the George Floyds, Philando Castiles, Laquan McDonalds, Walter Scotts, Eric Garners, etc. of the world?

[quote]

Also lets look at how many cops are killed in 2019. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/us/2019-officers-killed-trnd/index.html

Go ahead and spin this for me if you will. [/quote]


Why would I try and spin it? I don’t dispute it at all. I’m not arguing with you. I think it’s tragic anytime someone in the line of duty gets killed. One difference though is that policing REQUIRES that one place themselves in precarious situations. Dealing with heated domestic disputes, bank robberies, drug dealers, drunk a***oles, hard core criminals on the lam, etc. are built-in hazards of the job. So we shouldn’t be surprised that a certain percentage of people who sign up for that job tragically get killed. In fact, the job is deemed SO dangerous, that we give them guns! (and rightly so) In fact, we would be surprised if nobody in such a dangerous job ever got killed, right? But when unarmed civilians are getting killed by the very ones who are sworn to protect us it gets our attention (and rightly so).

But I agree with you. 25 is a horrible number and should be as close to zero as possible. I’ll also add that the number of cops that get killed is horrible and should also be zero, although for the reasons stated that is probably unrealistic. Thanks for the link.


Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 25, 2020 11:29AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
It's relevant to indicate that police seem to consider their tasks life threatening at a rate disproportionate to actual threat level. I think that is actually highly relevant. Using excessive force against perceived threat.

I also think much of the public has in the past considered policing generally more dangerous than garbage collection. I know I was somewhat surprised by the reference cited.

And for the garbage collector, some of that danger, of course, comes from the behaviour of others- not stopping their vehicle for the truck, racing around it and hitting the garbage man, for example. Or garbage truck driver backing up and running over pick up guy. Slightly less direct: hazardous wastes tossed in the trash.

Re. cab drivers: "In addition to the inherent risks of collisions on the roadway, taxi drivers also need to worry about potential altercations with their clients — who in most cases are complete strangers. Some 43.3% of workplace deaths for full-time taxi drivers and chauffeurs in 2016 were attributable to violence at the hands of another individual. Half of all deaths were roadway collisions."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/2018/01/09/workplace-fatalities-25-most-dangerous-jobs-america/1002500001/ [/quote]
No it is just not a comparison for any reason other than to try to mitigate the danger and push an agenda. As Ron points out these people are required to run TO danger. No roofer or garbage collector is. The comparison is ridiculous at best.

Again I ask how many garbage men are targeted simply for three job they do? The comparison is specious at best. Try doing the job for 5 seconds your mind will change. But it also involves the doing the job and then having your every word and action poured over by self appointed experts who have seen an episode of CSI and want to pretend they get it. If you have not done the job you don't.

I can't imagine why anyone does the job any more. 99.99% of cops are great people doing a thankless task. Oh and would show up to defend those tarnishing them the loudest because that's who they are. It is sad it comes to this nonsense.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 25, 2020 11:37AM)
If there are too many brutal policemen, too many unemployed and not enough nice trees, then sack the brutal policemen and instead of paying them unemployment benefit, ask them to plant trees and pay them for that.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 25, 2020 01:31PM)
"Police training needs to go beyond emphasizing the severity of the risks that officers face by taking into account the likelihood of those risks materializing."

"In percentage terms, officers were assaulted in about 0.09 percent of all interactions, were injured in some way in 0.02 percent of interactions, and were feloniously killed in 0.00008 percent of interactions. Adapting officer training to these statistics doesn’t minimize the very real risks that officers face, but it does help put those risks in perspective."

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-gun-shooting-training-ferguson/383681/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 25, 2020 02:53PM)
Ever been in officer training? I have. THEY DO tell you the HARDEST part of the job is the fact that it is LOOOOONG periods of boredom, interrupted by moments of start terror. Sounds to me they DO emphasize this part of the job. But obviously I have no clue what I am talking about.

Also if the statistics are what you say they are then the amount of interactions that go bad out of those small numbers must be even SMALLER! Only stands to reason doesn't it? So the number of things we are talking about is very small. Thank you for unintentionally proving my point.

And yet again let me stress that 25 is WAY too high a number for unarmed people of color killed. But that number without context, which is how everyone chooses to portray it, is meaningless. For example if 1,000,000 people of color have interactions with cops and 25 are killed unarmed then it is not as big a deal as if 100 have an an interaction and 4 are killed. I hate that these conversations have no context to them ever. They just blame cops because it is cool to do so.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 25, 2020 04:59PM)
“The Minneapolis police academy trains young soon-to-be officers for 16 weeks before they're assigned weapons and sent out on the streets as rookie cops. They then spend six months paired with training officers who show them the ropes.

On May 25, two rookie officers, J. Alexander Kueng and Thomas Lane, held down George Floyd's back and legs as their training officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee down on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes.”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-training-weeks-united-states/

I6 does not seem enough training but it is much the same here in the UK.

Incidentally, I knew a fellow who ran the police firearms training school here in Birmingham. He had an affair with married women and they were arrested for conspiring to murder her husband. Strangely, the husband paid bent police officers to fix the trial so that she would not go to jail because he still loved her.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 25, 2020 05:35PM)
Do cops run the courts in the UK?

If that guy was a training officer that is a major problem. He had a load of complaints against him. Plus was involved in more than one shooting.

I don't think he would fit the model of a proper training officer.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 25, 2020 07:41PM)
Http://collections-search.bfi.org.uk/web/Details/ChoiceFilmWorks/150422880

I could explain how it works.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 25, 2020 08:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:


Also if the statistics are what you say they are then the amount of interactions that go bad out of those small numbers must be even SMALLER! Only stands to reason doesn't it?
[/quote]

No, I don't think it does.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 25, 2020 09:00PM)
The universe of cops is FAR smaller than the universe of people of color. So yea it stands to reason big time.

But these little inconvenient truths don't really help the hate cops movement now do they?

Again with the 25 person estimate we are talking about an INCREDIBLY SMALL percentage of people. An incredibly small number of cases that go bad.

The larger problem is that policing has changed, and in the past couple decades not for the better. There used to be what was called a "community based policing" effort. Cops were not in cars, they got INVOLVED in the community they patrolled and protected and served. The beat cops knew 4 things. People, places, the things people do and the times they do them. They did not get suspicious of a black owner of a business taking out the garbage at 3 in the morning because he did it every night. They were part of the community. If something unusual happened to an uninformed person odds are good when he knew those 4 things he knew what was going on.

Take cops OUT of the community they serve and put them in cars that isolate them and it makes things different. Some people the ONLY interaction they have with cops is when something bad has happened. Not a great thing. It can foster an "us vs. them" attitude and it is not healthy.

I think these are the things that are out of balance right now. I think that looking back to this form of police work will go a long way to helping the situation and perception. But the way people all think they just know because they think they know is crazy. There ARE ideas out there that don't include a lot of tarnishing 99.99% of the great people doing that job.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 26, 2020 05:22AM)
Https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/06/police-violence-protests-us-george-floyd
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 26, 2020 03:00PM)
"Under four presidents, the Feds neglected duty to collect statistics on police killings
Why has the Justice Department failed to follow a law from 1994?"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/06/11/george-floyd-police-killings-violence-neglected-federally-column/5320501002/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2020 03:55PM)
Obviously it is some cops fault somewhere.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 26, 2020 04:25PM)
"He acknowledged government and academic studies have found high rates of traumatic injuries among people struck by less-lethal rounds."

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2020/jun/12/spokane-valley-man-struck-by-less-lethal-round-dur/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2020 04:47PM)
Isn't that the point of firing the less than lethal round? I mean if the situation has degraded to the point of having to use force all in all less than lethal options are better, but will still hurt. Nobody is going to stop if it doesn't hurt.

I mean do you want them to throw pillows at them?

What a silly way to frame the discussion.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 18, 2020 09:17PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, R.S. wrote:

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?[/quote]

why is it relevant?

[quote]


Ron [/quote]

Because it has direct bearing on the magnitude of the issue.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 19, 2020 06:31AM)
How many murders are acceptable?
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Jul 19, 2020 01:54PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, R.S. wrote:

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?[/quote]

why is it relevant?

[quote]


Ron [/quote]

Because it has direct bearing on the magnitude of the issue. [/quote]
👏👏👏
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 19, 2020 03:06PM)
[quote]On Jul 19, 2020, tommy wrote:
How many murders are acceptable? [/quote]

Sort of depends what you mean by "acceptable." How many drunk driving deaths are "acceptable"? We still have cars. We still have alcohol. So I guess we "accept" thousands, let alone any nonzero number.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 19, 2020 05:47PM)
I mean pleasant and agreeable.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 20, 2020 11:15AM)
I'd say the only pleasant, agreeable number is zero.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 20, 2020 11:53AM)
So the number is not the issue.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 20, 2020 12:14PM)
New York's crime reporting last week was murders up 220% and other criminal activities up over 600%. I see defunding the Police and degrading them is working out well for New York citizens.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 20, 2020 12:46PM)
I am not so sure how the defunding has impacted yet. The degrading however is in full swing.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 20, 2020 03:54PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2020, tommy wrote:
So the number is not the issue. [/quote]

There is no "the issue." There is a multiplicity of issues. Your question was "What is the number beyond which things are not pleasant and agreeable?" Someone else's question might be "What is the number below which, while recognizing that improvements need to be made, it's not justified to to cause tens of millions of dollars in property damage and decimate poor communities' tax bases?"
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jul 20, 2020 07:53PM)
I don't know. What is the number that makes those "improvements" occur? The ball has always been in their court.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 21, 2020 08:53AM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, R.S. wrote:

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?[/quote]

why is it relevant?

[quote]


Ron [/quote]

Because it has direct bearing on the magnitude of the issue. [/quote]


There is no "the issue".
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 21, 2020 05:05PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2020, landmark wrote:
I don't know. What is the number that makes those "improvements" occur? The ball has always been in their court. [/quote]


I believe, though I'm not sure, that improvements have been implemented fairly consistently, and police violence/unjustified fatalities have been declining consistently if not annually.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 21, 2020 05:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2020, tommy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 18, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, R.S. wrote:

How many interactions did people of color have with police in 2019?[/quote]

why is it relevant?

[quote]


Ron [/quote]

Because it has direct bearing on the magnitude of the issue. [/quote]


There is no "the issue". [/quote]

Well played, sir. It has direct bearing on the magnitude of an issue.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jul 21, 2020 05:47PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Jul 20, 2020, landmark wrote:
I don't know. What is the number that makes those "improvements" occur? The ball has always been in their court. [/quote]


I believe, though I'm not sure, that improvements have been implemented fairly consistently, and police violence/unjustified fatalities have been declining consistently if not annually. [/quote]

Let's see. Nationwide protests against police brutality, and the police response has been marked by even more instances of unprovoked police violence against protestors, bystanders and journalists even as they know they are being videoed. If that's an improvement, I hate to think about what the base line was here.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jul 21, 2020 06:29PM)
I think the baseline was pretty bad in the 20th century, certainly pre-Rodney King.

With the prevalence of video and all in 2020, I wonder what the baseline was for arson and shoplifting.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jul 21, 2020 08:23PM)
I appreciate your attempt to be even-handed, but can you understand how even post Rodney King things still suck, and that people have had it? It's not just about one death, horrific as Floyd's death was, but about the whole enchilada: corrupt law enforcement, corrupt courts, corrupt prisons, and I won't even get into the medical system, the corrupt financial system etc., the corrupt corporations, etc.

BTW, All quite independent of political party. On the contrary, when you hear the words "bi-partisan agreement" that's when you know you're really in trouble. It's a System Fail. If it were a computer program, you'd tear up the program and start from scratch.

The Powers That Be have created a situation where there's little left to lose for too many. It's a fairly historic moment. And there is *no one* in politics who is up to meeting it. The moment requires one of those once-in-a-generation leaders and s/he's nowhere to be seen. Instead mediocrity reigns everywhere.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jul 21, 2020 09:32PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2020, landmark wrote:
And there is *no one* in politics who is up to meeting it. [/quote]

I think it's time people looked elsewhere, indeed.

Marshall Rosenberg spoke of a human "evolutionary snag".

I think it's been pointed out very clearly now.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jul 22, 2020 12:41AM)
I do not agree. The law or new laws is what you need.

Social engineering techniques vary but, it seems to me, the best way is to gradually bring in new laws. You bring the laws is one at a time, to give the police and public a chance to get used to them, until you get the new norms and values that you want. Excessive force and the like is essentially an abuse of power.

What changed the norms and values of the British police for the better was the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, which was not a set of new laws but rather a set of guidelines, a code of conduct, used by the courts to judge if the police had behaved properly or not.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 4, 2020 12:46PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2020, landmark wrote:


Let's see. Nationwide protests against police brutality, and the police response has been marked by even more instances of unprovoked police violence against protestors, bystanders and journalists even as they know they are being videoed. If that's an improvement, I hate to think about what the base line was here. [/quote]

"unprovoked police violence against protestors" LOL! Right, because these protests are always so peaceful. Not once has a protestor attacked the police for no reason. Keep living in your bubble.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 4, 2020 02:57PM)
Whether protestors are peaceful or not is irrelevant. I am not talking about actions against someone who is doing something violent. I am talking about UNPROVOKED violence by police. There has been plenty of it, and everyone knows it and has seen it.

As for bubble, unless you're in LE, I suspect I've been to more demonstrations than you have.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 4, 2020 04:33PM)
If protesters violence is not relevant neither is that of cops.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 4, 2020 10:01PM)
"Other protesters were violent, so THESE protesters will PROBABLY be violent. So I should bust their heads NOW instead of later!"
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 5, 2020 06:34AM)
Chauvin has been charged with second-degree murder.

The three other officers involved in Floyd's death -- Kueng, Lane and Tou Thao -- were also arrested and charged with aiding and abetting second-degree murder and aiding and abetting second-degree manslaughter.

So given that these officers have been brought to justice, what is the point of protesting this case?

Why don't the people instead protest cases where police have not been charged where rightly they ought to have been?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 5, 2020 07:40AM)
[quote]On Aug 4, 2020, ed rhodes wrote:
"Other protesters were violent, so THESE protesters will PROBABLY be violent. So I should bust their heads NOW instead of later!" [/quote]

These cops are bad so defund all cops. Funny how you seem to miss this point isn't it?

Anyone can play that silly game Ed.

Now how about we actually discuss it instead of using talking points? Because nobody said what you said in this quote.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 5, 2020 07:44AM)
[quote]
Why don't the people instead protest cases where police have not been charged where rightly they ought to have been?[/quote]

It's way past the point where people are protesting just one particular case or another. People are protesting the whole judicial system from top to bottom. For better or for worse, the co-ordinated ongoing injustices on display during these protests have moved many people past the "one bad apple" point of view to "the system is thoroughly corrupt" point of view.

The kinds of questions that are being asked now are not so much about individual police officers but more like, what is the purpose of the police, what are the origins of policing, who controls the police, who exactly do the police serve?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 5, 2020 10:33AM)
Nonsense.

Sorry you stepped way too far. You may be asking those questions but that is because they fit your agenda. Not because they are a reality.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 5, 2020 03:57PM)
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.


https://garygindler.com/2020/07/22/black-camo-eng/
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 5, 2020 05:37PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, tommy wrote:
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.


https://garygindler.com/2020/07/22/black-camo-eng/ [/quote]

Wow that was like stumbling upon some MS-DOS computer program where some guy threw together some random words and told the computer to make something that looks like a blog post, only it's like version .02a. It's like instead of discovering Artificial Intelligence this guy discovered Artificial Stupidity.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 5, 2020 06:12PM)
Https://www.joplinglobe.com/opinion/columns/larry-elder-wheres-black-lives-matter-when-you-need-them/article_dae98758-d8e7-5339-9b4a-f34b6ba77ed8.html
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 5, 2020 09:43PM)
Why don't we stop using nonsense talking points and falling for landmarks game?

So Jack, just HOW MANY unarmed people of color do you believe are killed each year by cops? Let's start there. The word "genocide" is thrown about pretty often so lets see just how many makes a genocide.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 5, 2020 09:45PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 4, 2020, ed rhodes wrote:
"Other protesters were violent, so THESE protesters will PROBABLY be violent. So I should bust their heads NOW instead of later!" [/quote]

These cops are bad so defund all cops. Funny how you seem to miss this point isn't it?

Anyone can play that silly game Ed.

Now how about we actually discuss it instead of using talking points? Because nobody said what you said in this quote. [/quote]


I defy you to find a post where I suggested "defunding the cops" was a good idea.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Aug 5, 2020 09:49PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, tommy wrote:
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.


https://garygindler.com/2020/07/22/black-camo-eng/ [/quote]

Wow that was like stumbling upon some MS-DOS computer program where some guy threw together some random words and told the computer to make something that looks like a blog post, only it's like version .02a. It's like instead of discovering Artificial Intelligence this guy discovered Artificial Stupidity. [/quote]

I used to have a book of computer programs. One of which allowed you to make DATA statements and string them together into what looked like a coherent speech... if you didn't look to closely. This reminded me of that.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 5, 2020 10:51PM)
ELIZA and OpenAI GPT-2 but rather than Rogerian therapy, weight the text for Inflammatory phrases.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 5, 2020 10:56PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 4, 2020, ed rhodes wrote:
"Other protesters were violent, so THESE protesters will PROBABLY be violent. So I should bust their heads NOW instead of later!" [/quote]

These cops are bad so defund all cops. Funny how you seem to miss this point isn't it?

Anyone can play that silly game Ed.

Now how about we actually discuss it instead of using talking points? Because nobody said what you said in this quote. [/quote]


I defy you to find a post where I suggested "defunding the cops" was a good idea. [/quote]
How about first you show where anyone suggested what YOU said in your quote?

Nice game huh?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 5, 2020 11:06PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Why don't we stop using nonsense talking points and falling for landmarks game?

So Jack, just HOW MANY unarmed people of color do you believe are killed each year by cops? Let's start there. The word "genocide" is thrown about pretty often so lets see just how many makes a genocide. [/quote]

Danny, the question is how many people of color have been brutalized, unjustly arrested, bloodied, harassed, lied about in court, left to rot in jails and prisons, made to confess, had false evidence planted on them, been the subject of racist remarks, pepper sprayed, tear gassed, executed, denied promotion, denied proper legal counsel, subject to the whims of racist judges enforcing racist laws...let's start there. Then you'll understand why Chauvin was just the last straw.

People aren't buying the "bad apples" excuse anymore. It's over.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 5, 2020 11:11PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
ELIZA and OpenAI GPT-2 but rather than Rogerian therapy, weight the text for Inflammatory phrases. [/quote]

That was kind of my thought. It was the crudeness of the effort that amused me. Propaganda (excuse me, opinion formation) has gotten so much slicker and sophisticated than that. It was like watching one of those 1950s cigarette commercials where 9 out of 10 doctors recommend Camels.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 6, 2020 03:45AM)
It would all be reminiscent of empty shop shelves in the former Soviet Union if only we had some shops.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 6, 2020 06:57AM)
What the data say about police shootings

How do racial biases play into deadly encounters with the police? Researchers wrestle with incomplete data to reach answers.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 6, 2020 09:02AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Why don't we stop using nonsense talking points and falling for landmarks game?

So Jack, just HOW MANY unarmed people of color do you believe are killed each year by cops? Let's start there. The word "genocide" is thrown about pretty often so lets see just how many makes a genocide. [/quote]

Danny, the question is how many people of color have been brutalized, unjustly arrested, bloodied, harassed, lied about in court, left to rot in jails and prisons, made to confess, had false evidence planted on them, been the subject of racist remarks, pepper sprayed, tear gassed, executed, denied promotion, denied proper legal counsel, subject to the whims of racist judges enforcing racist laws...let's start there. Then you'll understand why Chauvin was just the last straw.

People aren't buying the "bad apples" excuse anymore. It's over. [/quote]
So you just make up stuff and claim rioting is ok.

Sorry back it up. Show proof of your claims please. Not rhetoric, not other people making claims. Show me how many cops do this regularly.

Point is you can't back it up with anything but cops and America sucks and capitalism failed. You have nothing but talking points to stir crap. No plan nothing.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 6, 2020 09:21AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.joplinglobe.com/opinion/columns/larry-elder-wheres-black-lives-matter-when-you-need-them/article_dae98758-d8e7-5339-9b4a-f34b6ba77ed8.html [/quote]

Here is some data. Most will ignore it.
It will be eye opening for some.
I like the last line best.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 6, 2020 10:59AM)
Most will ignore it twice as it is unavailable to most for legal reasons, among other things.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Aug 6, 2020 11:29AM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Why don't we stop using nonsense talking points and falling for landmarks game?

So Jack, just HOW MANY unarmed people of color do you believe are killed each year by cops? Let's start there. The word "genocide" is thrown about pretty often so lets see just how many makes a genocide. [/quote]

Danny, the question is how many people of color have been brutalized, unjustly arrested, bloodied, harassed, lied about in court, left to rot in jails and prisons, made to confess, had false evidence planted on them, been the subject of racist remarks, pepper sprayed, tear gassed, executed, denied promotion, denied proper legal counsel, subject to the whims of racist judges enforcing racist laws...let's start there. Then you'll understand why Chauvin was just the last straw.

People aren't buying the "bad apples" excuse anymore. It's over. [/quote]

Weren't you the guy making the argument about people doing a uniquely difficult job that people outside the profession didn't understand well enough to judge? My bad...we were talking about teachers then.
:bat:
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 6, 2020 01:28PM)
Odd news day with one story about a suit against the NRA and a different story about a law proposed in Arkansas to give concealed carry to judges.

Anything but talk about privilege?

* https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/aug/05/an-american-uprising-in-second-world-war-england-by-kate-werran-review

And still not talking about inertia and the forces which move people.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 6, 2020 02:21PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2020, landmark wrote:
The Powers That Be have created a situation where there's little left to lose for too many. It's a fairly historic moment. And there is *no one* in politics who is up to meeting it. The moment requires one of those once-in-a-generation leaders and s/he's nowhere to be seen. Instead mediocrity reigns everywhere. [/quote]
The powers so great you did not name. (is that a union thing?)
That yearning for a strong opinion and charisma is exactly the vulnerability being exploited.
We risk skipping past a discussion of Lenin versus Lennon (about revolution) and going directly to Stalin era fear driven social programs.
Just a suggestion: Please don't ask for guidance from "nowhere to be seen".


"someone to save us - someone to follow - someone to lead us - some brave Apollo"?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 6, 2020 06:08PM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2020, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, magicfish wrote:
Https://www.joplinglobe.com/opinion/columns/larry-elder-wheres-black-lives-matter-when-you-need-them/article_dae98758-d8e7-5339-9b4a-f34b6ba77ed8.html [/quote]

Here is some data. Most will ignore it.
It will be eye opening for some.
I like the last line best. [/quote]
Here are some data...
https://statisticalatlas.com/neighborhood/Illinois/Chicago/South-Chicago/Race-and-Ethnicity
... that have also been noticed.

Though if we try a dollar value / acre map it might look rather different.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 6, 2020 06:12PM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, landmark wrote:


Danny, the question is how many people of color have been brutalized, unjustly arrested, bloodied, harassed, lied about in court, left to rot in jails and prisons, made to confess, had false evidence planted on them, been the subject of racist remarks, pepper sprayed, tear gassed, executed, denied promotion, denied proper legal counsel, subject to the whims of racist judges enforcing racist laws...let's start there. Then you'll understand why Chauvin was just the last straw.

People aren't buying the "bad apples" excuse anymore. It's over. [/quote]
So you just make up stuff and claim rioting is ok.

Sorry back it up. Show proof of your claims please. Not rhetoric, not other people making claims. Show me how many cops do this regularly.

Point is you can't back it up with anything but cops and America sucks and capitalism failed. You have nothing but talking points to stir crap. No plan nothing. [/quote]

NYPD lawsuit settlements for 2019: $200 million+; LAPD: $100 million +; Chicago $100 million +.
Those are just the settlements. Imagine, One Billion dollars over three years in just three cities. It's fairly mindboggling.

As for "no plans, nothing," I've been talking about what I think could be done for fifteen years here. Gets kind of boring to keep repeating it. But just because you don't like or agree with the ideas put forth doesn't mean I haven't articulated them.

Meanwhile your plan evidently is to continue the failed policies. But denying doesn't make things go away.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 6, 2020 06:24PM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2020, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2020, landmark wrote:
The Powers That Be have created a situation where there's little left to lose for too many. It's a fairly historic moment. And there is *no one* in politics who is up to meeting it. The moment requires one of those once-in-a-generation leaders and s/he's nowhere to be seen. Instead mediocrity reigns everywhere. [/quote]
The powers so great you did not name. (is that a union thing?)
That yearning for a strong opinion and charisma is exactly the vulnerability being exploited.
We risk skipping past a discussion of Lenin versus Lennon (about revolution) and going directly to Stalin era fear driven social programs.
Just a suggestion: Please don't ask for guidance from "nowhere to be seen".


"someone to save us - someone to follow - someone to lead us - some brave Apollo"? [/quote]

Didn't think I would have to spell it out, but The Powers That Be= Those who hold the economic and political power in the country. Too numerous to mention by name. The individual names aren't that important--there will always be other individuals to replace them. What's important are the institutions to preserve the elite class's power: the two major political parties, Wall Street, the military and police apparatus that enforces the inequality.

When I spoke of leader, I specifically mentioned *in politics*--that is, someone from the ruling class who might mitigate things to save capitalism from itself as FDR managed to do.

But quite right, the working class does not need leaders in that sense. If there's a revolution in this country, it will happen through patient organizing on the ground, and through constant acts of courage. There are extraordinary ordinary people all over the place fighting to make their own and other people's lives better.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Aug 6, 2020 06:28PM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2020, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Aug 5, 2020, landmark wrote:

Danny, the question is how many people of color have been brutalized, unjustly arrested, bloodied, harassed, lied about in court, left to rot in jails and prisons, made to confess, had false evidence planted on them, been the subject of racist remarks, pepper sprayed, tear gassed, executed, denied promotion, denied proper legal counsel, subject to the whims of racist judges enforcing racist laws...let's start there. Then you'll understand why Chauvin was just the last straw.

People aren't buying the "bad apples" excuse anymore. It's over. [/quote]

Weren't you the guy making the argument about people doing a uniquely difficult job that people outside the profession didn't understand well enough to judge? My bad...we were talking about teachers then.
:bat: [/quote]

You're quite right, I've made that point several times here, and I've made it not only with regard to teachers, [i]but also specifically to police officers.[/i] I think it holds true for almost all jobs as a general rule. I think being a police officer is a very difficult job.

But it doesn't affect one iota the reality of what I listed above.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 6, 2020 07:02PM)
All you proved conclusively is we live in a litigious society.

Then you do what you always do to prove your fantasy land bs. "Imagine..." and go on to fill in with your own private agenda ad if it were fact.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Aug 6, 2020 09:24PM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2020, tommy wrote:
Most will ignore it twice as it is unavailable to most for legal reasons, among other things. [/quote]
Incorrect
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 6, 2020 10:46PM)
451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
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Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 7, 2020 09:06AM)
The DA offices are full of retired police officers, which a conflict of interest where police officers are being prosecuted or not as the case may be. What you have got there is an illusion of independence as people think the DA offices are just full of bunch of independent layers. It is no wonder some police officers think they can get away with murder.