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Topic: Magic in the new normal
Message: Posted by: DavidMac (Jun 19, 2020 05:45PM)
I was wondering how everyone is adapting their sets to a more contactless, socially distanced environment or whether people are waiting for old normality to return?

I've not performed for about a year, it's been a paid hobby but a change in job 18 months ago meant I've not really had time. Having spent a long time sorting sets where the majority of the effects happen in the spectator's hands, I now find myself looking at changing routines or looking at alternative affects taking the magic out of the hands and what feels like reach of spectators.

At present the opportunities for walk around aren't available so reviewing what I do seems the right thing to be doing, but even the simple act of having a card signed or a billet written on seems a long way off.

I suppose the current circumstances will drive creativity in some.

I've got visions of being stuck in a corner of a wedding or party with a table performing a parlor set rather than close up.

Just wondered what everyone's thoughts are...

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 19, 2020 07:46PM)
It is not as long off as it seems.
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Jun 19, 2020 10:17PM)
Work the new "rules" into your comedy. Before you hand someone (for example) the coin or ring to hold, make a hand sanitizer packet appear and wait for them, impatiently tapping your foot, while they sanitize their hands. Before you hand them a pen to sign the card from an appropriately "social distance" (as far as your arms can reach out) spray the pen with sanitizer. Bless the objects you handle with the "magician's blessing" - I use: "Hocus Pocus Two Two Oh". Remember, they have all been going through this, too, and will enjoy making fun of the situation.
Message: Posted by: DavidMac (Jun 20, 2020 05:53AM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is not as long off as it seems. [/quote]

That is true, it may not be far off but people's uncertainty will remain long after we return to normal and we'll have to work with it.
Message: Posted by: DavidMac (Jun 20, 2020 05:55AM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, jimgerrish wrote:
Work the new "rules" into your comedy. Before you hand someone (for example) the coin or ring to hold, make a hand sanitizer packet appear and wait for them, impatiently tapping your foot, while they sanitize their hands. Before you hand them a pen to sign the card from an appropriately "social distance" (as far as your arms can reach out) spray the pen with sanitizer. Bless the objects you handle with the "magician's blessing" - I use: "Hocus Pocus Two Two Oh". Remember, they have all been going through this, too, and will enjoy making fun of the situation. [/quote]

Good idea taking a lighter look and using comedy your advantage.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 20, 2020 06:56AM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, DavidMac wrote:
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is not as long off as it seems. [/quote]

That is true, it may not be far off but people's uncertainty will remain long after we return to normal and we'll have to work with it. [/quote]

No it won't. Look at the pictures of Las Vegas and tell me about "new normal" after reopening.

I believe it will only be a big deal as long as performers make it one.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 20, 2020 01:50PM)
Absolutely so true!

Magicians will become their own worst enemy. A new version of stop running when not being chased.
Message: Posted by: DavidMac (Jun 20, 2020 07:32PM)
The US may be different to the UK, given we have only just started having non essential shops opening, kids aren't going back to school until after the summer and employees may not go back to office work until January. Social distancing is very real here.

I personally feel that, at least in the short term, there will be a reluctance from people to get hands on involvement with close up magic and therefore we (or just me) need to look at alternative sets.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 20, 2020 08:03PM)
Yea not we.

The ENTIRE POINT of close up magic is right there in the name.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 21, 2020 05:53AM)
It is good, perhaps, for magicians to consider what makes Close-up different from other approaches -- what appeals and what does not.

Future choices of venue and style can only benefit from such musing. A possible return to close-up may involve a heightened appreciation.

What of social spacing is reduced but there is a reluctance to handle objects. Has the use of masks increased eye contact reluctance or comfort?

Is the physical touching experience going to be changed? More appreciated or forever fearful?

Not sure about these being "new normal." Perhaps the concept of normal as a standard will have changed.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 21, 2020 11:36AM)
Again doubtful. People just won't put up with it. I am living right smack in the middle of a reopened state and tourist area and no new normal exists. Same with Vegas, Daytona and so on. I make no case for it being right or wrong, just that it is.

Look at the political rally, and protests. Sorry new normal will not be a factor long in America.
Message: Posted by: Vandecarr (Jun 21, 2020 07:38PM)
The new normal is the same as its always been.

While my fairs are cancelled until July 28, I've been back out on the streets working for the past 3 weeks.

I still get audiences between 50 and probably around 150...

I still pack them in shoulder to shoulder...

Some where stupid masks, but most don't...

Hats are as good as ever...

People still hang out. after each. show to talk and take photos...

People are still shaking hands, high fiving and having fun!

You are the show - Do your show the way you do it - Be confident and your audience will go along for the ride, just like always.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jun 22, 2020 08:07PM)
Wonder why COVID positive tests and death rates are both hitting highest level in Kansas City...
Message: Posted by: David French (Jun 23, 2020 08:34AM)
Personally I don't like the term "new normal" The issue is that every state, county and region are different in their restrictions. I am headed back this Friday to one of my venues. I will hope to be able to do what I always did. However, of course I will be sensitive to the needs of the business as well as the guests concerns. I am axioms to see how it goes.
I have other venues that will not allow any entertainment for a while. We just have to roll with what is in front of us.
Message: Posted by: Count Hatrick (Jun 25, 2020 05:40AM)
Two perspectives in this discussion. 1. Will spectators be willing to handle your props? There are many truely close up effects that don't require this, colour Monte, crazy man's handcuffs. Sponge balls out and coins across in. 2. What's your risk as a performer. Every card you get selected puts you at risk of exposure. If you do that 50 times a night, your risk goes up.
There is no new normal until we get to normal.
Message: Posted by: Vandecarr (Jun 26, 2020 12:09AM)
Imgic,

I'm not busking in Kansas City...

But good attempt at a weak ploy

The Kung Flu has a survival rate of 99.4%

It's only dangerous for .06% of people.

If you believe everything you hear on TV you are in serious trouble.

Furthermore, mandatory masks are idiotic!

After 7 months of the virus, making masks mandatory now, is like wearing a condom to the baby shower.

Wake up and smell the toast burning!!!

America has been played and it will continue... Until the day after the election!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2020 12:28AM)
Without getting into the politics of it nice baby shower joke!

Also those numbers don't add up to 100.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jun 26, 2020 01:05AM)
Whatever your personal conclusion is about the danger/non-danger of this virus, I think we need to be sensitive to the fact that many people are very fearful of it. As a strolling close-up magician we are likely to barge into someone's personal space, uninvited, and make them uncomfortable, or even angry.

I've been thinking about pitching this idea to a client who hires me to do a strolling gig at an outdoor event every 4th of July. Instead of me 'strolling' why not set up a permanent station? Let the people come to me. That way its their choice. If they are super sensitive to being close to someone they can simply walk on. There are certain advantages of this for me also. With a permanent spot I can use a table and do some routines I normally couldn't do.

What do you think?
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jun 26, 2020 01:24AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2020, Vandecarr wrote:
Imgic,

I'm not busking in Kansas City...

But good attempt at a weak ploy

The Kung Flu has a survival rate of 99.4%

It's only dangerous for .06% of people.

If you believe everything you hear on TV you are in serious trouble.

Furthermore, mandatory masks are idiotic!

After 7 months of the virus, making masks mandatory now, is like wearing a condom to the baby shower.

Wake up and smell the toast burning!!!

America has been played and it will continue... Until the day after the election! [/quote]

Never said you were busking. Just pointing out CDC figures showing increases in your area.

Masks do work. It helps to wear them now. And it’s dangerous to everyone. I work in a hospital system. I see this first hand. But doubt any rationale discussion with you will change your mind.

Good luck to you and all those around you not social distancing or being considerate to others by masking...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 26, 2020 07:24AM)
Well maybe if they hadn't lied to us in the beginning it would be easier for people to see masks work. And isn't that the trouble with lying?

You work in the hospital system and that is where people go who are the worst odd with everything. It is a very skewed perspective. Not an invalid one but a skewed one.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jun 26, 2020 07:28AM)
Mask logic? Good idea? Possibly. Have you been out and about? How many people don't have their noses
covered or mouth for that matter. How many people just keep the mask in the car not changing or cleaning? How many people touch their infected masks and touch other things that other people will touch? We live in a world with bacteria and virus EVERYWHERE. We have to get on with our lives and let Herd Immunity do what it does best. Oh..and the MANY Dr.'s, Immunologists, Virologists who disagree with the way things are being handled are being silinced. Why?

HEADLINE after the election with a certain outcome. " Vacine Found" All OK!!...Time to go back to life as usual..
Message: Posted by: David French (Jun 26, 2020 09:40AM)
Ken -

Your idea of a stationary area/table is perfect. I pitch most of my private parties this way, even before the Covid issues. One other thought, I am going back to one of my restaurants soon. With the social distancing of the tables being 6 feet apart, I am going to have room to carry a small (instand) table. Thus not working on or too close to the guests tables. I like the idea of a stationary area too. It may be a bit awkward for guests in a restaurant to want to come over, but I may just try that!
Message: Posted by: Count Hatrick (Jun 26, 2020 10:01PM)
Ken & David, great ideas and responses to the current situation. I like that these options can also open up more performing options.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jun 26, 2020 10:41PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2020, David French wrote:
Ken -

Your idea of a stationary area/table is perfect. I pitch most of my private parties this way, even before the Covid issues. One other thought, I am going back to one of my restaurants soon. With the social distancing of the tables being 6 feet apart, I am going to have room to carry a small (instand) table. Thus not working on or too close to the guests tables. I like the idea of a stationary area too. It may be a bit awkward for guests in a restaurant to want to come over, but I may just try that! [/quote]

Recently I got a PC stand...nice sized top, very sturdy tripod. You can lay a close up mat on the top, or tape/glue it down. The legs are nicely spaced and and give you solid surface. Then easily fold up when it's time to go. It's hefty, not heavy. And reasonable in mid $30 range

https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-plpts3-portable-height-adjustable-laptop-dj-computer-projector-stand-28-to-41--248-4466?gclid=Cj0KCQjwudb3BRC9ARIsAEa-vUueFnN9XkVxdnNFngcnh_5iND6Ai5tS7BW34GNcf9EymQzmpWJz__kaAi1wEALw_wcB
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jun 30, 2020 11:05AM)
Quote: ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
On Jun 25, 2020, Vandecarr wrote:
"Imgic,
I'm not busking in Kansas City...
But good attempt at a weak ploy
The Kung Flu has a survival rate of 99.4%
It's only dangerous for .06% of people.
If you believe everything you hear on TV you are in serious trouble.
Furthermore, mandatory masks are idiotic!
After 7 months of the virus, making masks mandatory now, is like wearing a condom to the baby shower.
Wake up and smell the toast burning!!!
America has been played and it will continue... Until the day after the election!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see where you are getting your figures, Vandecarr. This morning the Coronavirus tracker had US cases as 2,590,582 and deaths as 126,141.

According to my calculations ( 126,141 / 2,590,582 x 100 ) is 4.87% deaths. Those states that opened up early such as Florida, Texas and Arizona have admitted that they opened up too early and are now putting restrictions back in because of the sudden rise in cases. Best to ignore the politics and go on the best medical advice. It looks like masks, social distancing and testing are going to be with us for a while longer.
It is unfortunate because we may have to rely more on online magic shows for some time into the future.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 30, 2020 11:18AM)
Yea problem with "best medical advice" is we have been admittedly LIED to.

The great people told us masks were not really needed in order to save them for the medical people. They did this for our own good. How can you ever believe a word coming out of their mouths again? And ain't that a problem with liars?

Sorry to break it to you but this is a political issue. Wound up in a web of lies and distortions of the truth to push each sides agendas plain and simple.

But as long as you want numbers from scientists and not online magicians how is the CDC? 0.26% is the rate that they are talking about. I guess you miss the mark with your oh so scary almost 5% number huh? Should we go with your numbers or those of the CDC?

https://in.dental-tribune.com/news/new-estimate-by-the-cdc-brings-down-the-covid-19-death-rate-to-just-0-26-as-against-whos-3-4/
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/05/28/863944333/antibody-tests-point-to-lower-death-rate-for-the-coronavirus-than-first-thought

It is a POLITICAL issue and the sooner people see this the better off everyone will be. Is it still a pandemic? Yea I guess. Is it super scary hide in our houses pandemic? I am not sure. But if you are going to throw about numbers, please at least use accurate ones. It makes things easier.

It is STILL something to take seriously to be certain. I am just trying to add perspective is all. The difference in a 5% mortality rate and .26 is pretty significant if you ask me.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jun 30, 2020 11:44AM)
I just did the math, Danny. It all depends on the numbers you are using. PS. If there are about 2,500,000 cases in the US then 1% of that is 25,000. We know far more than that have died so the death percent cannot be less than 1%. Yes, I agree, there is so much politics and distortion, you have to work to find the real situation.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 30, 2020 11:52AM)
Yea did you read the CDC links and such I provided to show you what is wrong with the math you were doing?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jun 30, 2020 12:22PM)
Hi Danny, Yes I did.
I think the report has confused the death rate and percentage (mathematically they are different).
I used percentage to be clear.
I am glad you find the 5% death percentage to be scary. It means that 95% of those who catch the disease will survive. If you are healthy and below 60 years old your chances of surviving are much higher. I heard a political pundit debate that it was worth it to open up the economy again.

Anyway the numbers will change slightly from day to day, but if you look at the total cases in the US and you know the total deaths in the US, you can calculate the percentage for yourself. (Why are you relying on reports, when you yourself claim there are so many distortions out there?)

Would any mathematicians care to comment?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 30, 2020 01:23PM)
Yea 95% survival isn't bad huh? Again I guess the CDC knows less than you because it is their numbers.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jun 30, 2020 03:02PM)
Yes, but 5% death is scary, as you said. As you emphatically said, don't just believe the reports - I agree.
Your reply sounds sarcastic, so I am not sure you accept your own arguments. You sent me the CDC reports "So I could see where I was wrong". You "guess that the CDC knows less than me."
I accept the CDC as a scientific organization, but the reporter seems to have mistakenly quoted the unit rate as the percentage rate.
Looking at the numbers, the CDC implies less than 1%, which looks wrong)?

To see through the "lies and distortions" that you talk about, why not just work out the percentage of deaths yourself. Get a calculator and a source of US cases vs US deaths and work it out yourself. What do YOU get?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 30, 2020 03:05PM)
Because we don't have a proper T value for the equation. Which incidentally has been the problem from the start.

Without knowing exactly, or close to how many people are actually infected there is no real way to get a death rate of any reliability. It is based on models, much like weather and we know how accurate THAT can be.

If 2,000,000 are infected then 130,000 is a serious number.

BUT if 20,000,000 are infected and 130,000 are dead, maybe it is not as serious huh?

Antibody tests seem to suggest we are WAY off an amount of infected people, and therefore the rate of death.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jun 30, 2020 03:28PM)
Agreed.
130,000 is a serious number out of the current cases. I am in Florida for a week, so I am keeping track daily.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 30, 2020 04:07PM)
Yea the more learned the more that this is not so scary.

But I AM IN NO WAY telling anyone to not wear masks, not saying don't social distance and not saying to flaunt the guidelines. Just pointing out inconvenient truths is all.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Jul 12, 2020 03:00AM)
What we know right now is that more Americans have died of identified COVID-19 than died in Vietnam and Korea put together. More Americans have died of it in the last 5 months than died in all of World War 1.

We know that a lot of people have died. That's not in any way disputed, I hope.

Can we please stop with the argument about the rate? Since when is 130,000 dead acceptable? That's only counting the deaths. That's not counting the people who spend weeks suffering miserably, but recover. If wearing a mask would have cut the chances of those people catching it, why would you not? If you could cut transmission in half just by covering up your breathing, why would you not, unless you honestly don't care about other people?

If you could save one life by covering your mouth and nose with fabric, what kind of person would say "it is worth the loss of the people who die so I don't have to wear a mask?"

Yes, early reports have been contradicted. We know a lot more about it than we did 5 months ago. At the same time, why would we not follow the best science currently available? Or, if you are more swayed by anecdotal "evidence," look to Japan, where infection rates are low and mask wearing is the norm.

It is problematic that numbers are produced different ways. Is the 0.26% figure meant to be a quarter percent of all those exposed? Because the confirmed cases and deaths math is sound. But just being exposed does not guarantee that you will be diagnosed positive. However, you can't assume you will be negative, either.

The fact that this was so mismanaged in our country is a true disgrace. I'm not even pointing at one group over another. If only we still had a pandemic response protocol when we needed it. But we didn't. And instead of taking our cues from nations that now have very low numbers, we are counting on widespread exposure to work. When we don't even know what the long-term effects may be. Chicken pox is a virus that stays in the system and can turn into shingles many years later. Herpes stays in the body and will come out as cold sores during stressful times through the rest of your life. HIV is a virus that stays in the body and can only be controlled, not cured. We don't know what the coronavirus will be like in 10 years. It might be one of those that just goes away after you catch it and recover. It might be one that will be with you for life. We just don't know.

This pandemic was made more of a mess because it was made a political issue. There should not be a political disagreement over whether we need to protect people in this country from a fast-spreading virus (there's no debate on the spread) that is deadly to a very real number of people who catch it. And if we were misinformed about the masks initially, that's no reason to say "well, they lied to us at the start, so I'm not going to wear a mask now that they say it would help." I mean, you are admitting that the early claim that masks are not helpful in controlling the transmission were false, right? That means the masks would help control the spread. But because you were lied to initially, you are going to keep on doing what you now know is the more dangerous course? What kind of sense does that make?

All that said, trying to bring it back to magic, I think it is worth spending some time and effort to craft a performance you can do in a situation where you are asked to remain 6 feet from your audience, with no physical contact. You might think it is silly to minimize contact, but are you willing to pass up a paying gig because you didn't want to do a non-contact show? Personally, I'm trying to find a decent drawing duplication method that would work in the current situation. Anything that involves me handing over a piece of paper or a card would be out. Taking it back again (as most methods require) is likewise off the table. But limitations like this can stimulate creative thought more, sometimes, than unlimited situations. I hope I can find or work out something that I'll be happy with. Only time will tell.

Be safe everyone. And I mean that in two senses. I hope all stay healthy and I hope all choose to practice habits that keep others healthy.

-Patrick
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Jul 12, 2020 03:19AM)
And just because I can't seem to leave it alone when I know I'm beating a dead horse, here's something useful: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

There is a huge difference between the case/death ratio (which does yield nearly 4.5% death rate) and the per capita death ratio. Are you calling it a fatality rate based on number of deaths per 100 people in the area or are you basing it on deaths per 100 confirmed cases? Very different numbers. Both valid, both meaningful. Confusing to laymen (like us here) because we may well be comparing two totally different sorts of things, here.

I don't think there is really any argument about how many people have died off Covid 19. I don't think there's really any argument over how may people have tested positive for Covid 19. The arguments often seem to have to do with assumed (with valid reasons, I'm not knocking it by using the term assumed) number of real infections that are not identified. But known deaths/known infections is a very simple calculation. And it isn't a pretty result.

I wish you all the best of health. I wear a mask in public. Please at least consider thoughtfully whether you would be helping or hurting the situation by doing the same. And be grown up enough to change your mind when new or better evidence (or suggestions) come your way. I have changed my practices several times over the last few months as more evidence was made available as to what was more or less effective. But I have always tried to act in the ways that were most likely to protect my community, based on the science available at the time. In other countries where this was done, infections per 100,000 have dropped far below ours. Fewer infections means fewer deaths. And I don't think anyone on any side of the (stupidly) political argument disputes that last statement.

-Patrick
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 12, 2020 09:06AM)
I remember when we could come in this section to avoid the political bs.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Jul 12, 2020 12:20PM)
A pandemic should transcend politics and I can say I have neither promoted nor denigrated any candidate or party or political ideology. In fact, my view is that I can’t see how or why the issue of protecting people has become political at all.

Since you do find this political, I’ll post no more. I hope all here stay safe. Unless you think safety violates your rights. In which case I hope you at least cause no harm, which is a pretty low bar for being a decent person, no matter your party.

Patrick
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 12, 2020 12:59PM)
Your view should transcend politics is what you are saying.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Jul 12, 2020 06:03PM)
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 12, 2020 06:43PM)
Right and just so everyone believes that then nothing is political.

Again this used to be a refuge from all that. Bringing it in here is uncool.
Message: Posted by: Kaliix (Jul 12, 2020 08:06PM)
If you want to continue talking about masks, you should start a thread over in the [url=https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=32]"Not very magical, still..."[/url]. You can start it by listing all the RCT that support the idea that a cloth mask is effective. (Here's a hint, you won't find any, but you will find a bunch that find cloth masks ineffective)


[quote]On Jul 12, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote:
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 12, 2020 11:20PM)
Anyone who has ever sanded drywall with a cloth mask can attest to how ineffective they really can be. Sort of like using a chain link fence to stop mosquitoes.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jul 12, 2020 11:48PM)
Bill Nye explains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0UclAmrhVI
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 13, 2020 12:01AM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
If you want to continue talking about masks, you should start a thread over in the [url=https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=32]"Not very magical, still..."[/url]. You can start it by listing all the RCT that support the idea that a cloth mask is effective. (Here's a hint, you won't find any, but you will find a bunch that find cloth masks ineffective)


[quote]On Jul 12, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote:
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick [/quote] [/quote]

I have to differ, Kalix. Table Hoppers and Party Strollers are heavily affected by the spread of this virus. Getting it under control is very appropriate for this forum. Bars, restaurants, birthday parties and conventions will be among the last things to normalize enough to support live magic. The faster we beat this thing, the better for everyone.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 12:10AM)
[quote]On Jul 12, 2020, imgic wrote:
Bill Nye explains...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0UclAmrhVI [/quote]
And this explains ol Bill.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/why-bill-nye-keeps-getting-bashed-for-not-being-a-scientist

"He has an undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering, pursued stand-up comedy while working for Boeing and originally invented the bow-tied “science guy” persona as a comic bit."

He is a known political partisan. But that is OK if you agree with him, in which case he is simply telling the truth LOL. LOVE that this place is now political. Oh wait, I mean the other thing.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 13, 2020 01:25AM)
Years ago Bill had a regular TV show called "Bill Nye The Science Guy" in which he promoted Science Education. I enjoyed watching the series. He is much the science enthusiast. Nowadays I see scientists being discredited by anti-science groups like "Flat-earthers" and "Anti-vaxxers". Let's hope that medical professionals fighting this virus scientifically are allowed to lead the battle.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 08:22AM)
Only problem with your point is that SCIENTISTS are his laegest critics not odd groups as you seem to want to portray.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 09:10AM)
Also why does everyone portray people who simply disagree as lunatic fringe groups? It doesn't strengthen your argument to do so.

Again I miss when politics didn't permeate this place.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 13, 2020 09:15AM)
One of the strengths of science is that anyone is free to challenge any scientific statement, and if they have the evidence and logic, they may overturn it. It is almost certain that there will be discoveries in the future that overturn present beliefs. The problem is these "odd groups" you mention that make scientifically dubious claims.
In fact I must confess that I belong to one of these odd groups. I can pull silks out of thin air. Explain that Bill Nye.
Message: Posted by: Kaliix (Jul 13, 2020 10:25AM)
Bill Nye's explanations are his opinion and they are wrong. It is an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. Any claim that cloth facemasks can prevent the wearer from transmitting or catching Covid-19 needs to be proven with Randomized Controlled Trials (RCT), as it is not only Federal law, but RCT are considered the gold standard of research claims. I can cite ten RCT minimum that found cloth masks to be ineffective. You will not be able to find any because I have looked extensively and ALL I keep finding is more evidence that cloth facemasks don't work.

I don't care what you believe, I care what you can prove. I have plenty of the right kind of proof for what I believe so again if you can just show me ONE RCT that supports the hypothesis that cloth facemasks are effective at filtering 0.1 micron virus particles, I'm more than willing to read it. Otherwise, yours is an opinion decidedly lacking in proof.

I should just create the thread myself but...

[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 12, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
If you want to continue talking about masks, you should start a thread over in the [url=https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=32]"Not very magical, still..."[/url]. You can start it by listing all the RCT that support the idea that a cloth mask is effective. (Here's a hint, you won't find any, but you will find a bunch that find cloth masks ineffective)


[quote]On Jul 12, 2020, Mr. Woolery wrote:
My view is that the lives of my fellow human beings matter more than a little minor discomfort from wearing a mask. My view is that politics should serve the greater good of the nation and, extending beyond our borders, the greater good of the world. Which would be for the benefit of our own country in the long run, too.

-Patrick [/quote] [/quote]

I have to differ, Kalix. Table Hoppers and Party Strollers are heavily affected by the spread of this virus. Getting it under control is very appropriate for this forum. Bars, restaurants, birthday parties and conventions will be among the last things to normalize enough to support live magic. The faster we beat this thing, the better for everyone. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 13, 2020 12:15PM)
I have to differ again, Kaliix. In practice, opinions do matter. Even if you are correct that face masks don't work, I would put up with the inconvenience of wearing a mask if a good number of the people around me believed I was protecting them, and also because a lot of stores and businesses would not let me in without a mask. Yes, opinions = politics.
Since you have all the proof you need, would you refuse to wear a mask in public?
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jul 13, 2020 04:38PM)
The virus is 0.1 micron but outside a lab, the virus is bonded to something...like aerosolized water droplets that are emitted by coughing, sneezing, or talking Cloth stop or hinder the spread of these droplets.

Masks work.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 05:25PM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, imgic wrote:
The virus is 0.1 micron but outside a lab, the virus is bonded to something...like aerosolized water droplets that are emitted by coughing, sneezing, or talking Cloth stop or hinder the spread of these droplets.

Masks work. [/quote]

I guess he was asking for the study more than just your own conclusions and declarative statement.

You could be right, I don't know.

But what happens with all these droplets trapped in the mask exactly?

And maybe, just maybe they shouldn't lie to us about it.
Message: Posted by: ekgdoc (Jul 13, 2020 07:51PM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
Any claim that cloth facemasks can prevent the wearer from transmitting or catching Covid-19 needs to be proven with Randomized Controlled Trials (RCT), as it is not only Federal law, but RCT are considered the gold standard of research claims.[/quote]

This statement is incorrect on several levels. First, the statement implies that any public health recommendation, in this case wearing a face mask, must be proven with an RCT. While having such an RCT would be nice, it is not a requirement. Think condom use and HIV. There are no supporting RCTs. Second, Federal law (FDA approval) does not require that all medical claims be "proven" with RCTs. Indeed, medical claims are frequently approved by the FDA without an RCT being done. The context of what the claim is and what the supporting evidence is will determine whether an RCT is required.

Your point regarding appeal to authority being a logical fallacy (since the authority could be wrong) also applies to Randomized Controlled Trials, since any RCT could be wrong. Even so, I'm wearing a face mask when I am inside a public environment. I recommend others do the same. And, when the time is right, don't forget to wear a condom.

David M.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 07:53PM)
I always wear a condom in a public environment. Especially if I'm sharing needles.
Message: Posted by: Count Hatrick (Jul 13, 2020 09:19PM)
Thanks Dannydoyle - made me smile.

I still think the important question for us performers is what would make our audience feel OK. If you're in a space where face masks are expected, then you should wear one whether effective or not. It's not about us, it's about the Audience.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 09:37PM)
I'm doubting much magic in happening in places that require face mask.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 13, 2020 10:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, Count Hatrick wrote:
Thanks Dannydoyle - made me smile.

I still think the important question for us performers is what would make our audience feel OK. If you're in a space where face masks are expected, then you should wear one whether effective or not. It's not about us, it's about the Audience. [/quote]

I just get so tired of these stupid debates. Everyone searches for things that prove beyond doubt they are right and then take a morally superior position and call everyone else dumb names like Anti Vaxers if they dare to disagree or even worse think for themselves.

Meanwhile NOT ONE person has ever actually changed their mind because of one of these stupid threads!

This section actually used to be relatively free from all that bs and I don't see any reason to bring that nonsense here. It is nothing but toxic nonsense.
Message: Posted by: Kaliix (Jul 14, 2020 10:36AM)
I claim that declaring that a surgical facemask (or any cloth facemask) will prevent the wearer from contracting Covid-19 would be subject to RCT. Nothing you have stated disproves that. I don't specifically know if that is the case, but I'd be willing to bet it is.

You do not understand what an appeal to authority is if you call citing Randomized Controlled Trials as an example of it.

Your dismissal of the need for evidence comes as no surprise considering you have none. Again, I can show you TEN RCT studies done on the wearing of cloth facemasks and NONE of them show that wearing cloth face masks are effective at filtering influenza particles. One also needs to ignore the evidence that wearing a facemask is not a neutral act and that if specific mask protocols are not followed, it can make infections more likely, not less.

Your declarative statement that facemasks are effective at filtering Covid-19 particles puts the burden of proof on you to prove your argument. You again are shown to have none. Believe what you want, but before you require me to do something stupidly ineffective, I require proof that what you are requiring works. You have no proof because masks, in general, don't work and the science proves it.

[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, ekgdoc wrote:
[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
Any claim that cloth facemasks can prevent the wearer from transmitting or catching Covid-19 needs to be proven with Randomized Controlled Trials (RCT), as it is not only Federal law, but RCT are considered the gold standard of research claims.[/quote]

This statement is incorrect on several levels. First, the statement implies that any public health recommendation, in this case wearing a face mask, must be proven with an RCT. While having such an RCT would be nice, it is not a requirement. Think condom use and HIV. There are no supporting RCTs. Second, Federal law (FDA approval) does not require that all medical claims be "proven" with RCTs. Indeed, medical claims are frequently approved by the FDA without an RCT being done. The context of what the claim is and what the supporting evidence is will determine whether an RCT is required.

Your point regarding appeal to authority being a logical fallacy (since the authority could be wrong) also applies to Randomized Controlled Trials, since any RCT could be wrong. Even so, I'm wearing a face mask when I am inside a public environment. I recommend others do the same. And, when the time is right, don't forget to wear a condom.

David M. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: imgic (Jul 14, 2020 01:49PM)
The value of the mask is NOT to protect the person wearing it from contracting COVID. For that you need a respirator like an N-95 mask.

The value of wearing a mask is protecting others...in preventing the spread of the disease.

Here's link to good article on masks from University of California, and it has links within to other studies. Though I realize in times like these people will decry it or rebut with links of their own.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 14, 2020 01:58PM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 13, 2020, Count Hatrick wrote:
Thanks Dannydoyle - made me smile.

I still think the important question for us performers is what would make our audience feel OK. If you're in a space where face masks are expected, then you should wear one whether effective or not. It's not about us, it's about the Audience. [/quote]

I just get so tired of these stupid debates. Everyone searches for things that prove beyond doubt they are right and then take a morally superior position and call everyone else dumb names like Anti Vaxers if they dare to disagree or even worse think for themselves.

Meanwhile NOT ONE person has ever actually changed their mind because of one of these stupid threads!

This section actually used to be relatively free from all that bs and I don't see any reason to bring that nonsense here. It is nothing but toxic nonsense. [/quote]
Hi Danny, I agree that everyone tries to prove themselves right, including yourself. You also take a morally superior position, using the words "dumb names" and "stupid threads".
I agree that debates don't change people's minds. I have watched debates between "Anti-vaxxers" and "Science Guys" (stupid names as you say, but descriptive enough) and both sides have their indisputable facts and proofs which they will not give up.
As you say, people have to think for themselves.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 14, 2020 02:44PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, imgic wrote:
The value of the mask is NOT to protect the person wearing it from contracting COVID. For that you need a respirator like an N-95 mask.

The value of wearing a mask is protecting others...in preventing the spread of the disease.

Here's link to good article on masks from University of California, and it has links within to other studies. Though I realize in times like these people will decry it or rebut with links of their own.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent [/quote]


Thanks for the link, Imgic. I found it very informative.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 14, 2020 03:11PM)
[quote]

The Kung Flu has a survival rate of 99.4%

It's only dangerous for .06% of people.

If you believe everything you hear on TV you are in serious trouble.

Furthermore, mandatory masks are idiotic!

[/quote]

There is so much more medical damage that is caused by this virus than is reflected in the death rate:

https://boingboing.net/2020/07/13/how-can-a-disease-with-1-mort.html?utm_content=buffer75463&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 14, 2020 04:22PM)
Here is my question. It is serious.

What if we're living in a world where this oh so scary virus is here to stay, AND there is nothing we can do about it EXCEPT heard immunity?

Do you plan to hide in your cave until it is 100% safe for 100% of the population? What if heard immunity isn't going to happen? What do you propose to do about it? Live in fear?

Life is a risk for me. I accept those risks. I'm not willing to live in constant fear because the media tells me to.

I'm not saying masks work or don't. I'm sick of being lied to by every media outlet of every opinion. I'm tired of being lied to by government officials entrusted with safety.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 14, 2020 05:18PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Here is my question. It is serious.

What if we're living in a world where this oh so scary virus is here to stay, AND there is nothing we can do about it EXCEPT heard immunity?

Do you plan to hide in your cave until it is 100% safe for 100% of the population? What if heard immunity isn't going to happen? What do you propose to do about it? Live in fear?

Life is a risk for me. I accept those risks. I'm not willing to live in constant fear because the media tells me to.

I'm not saying masks work or don't. I'm sick of being lied to by every media outlet of every opinion. I'm tired of being lied to by government officials entrusted with safety. [/quote]

"Hide in your cave"? "Live in fear"? 100% safe? That attitude is not helpful. Like past plagues it will eventually pass, and we know the main ways to control the spread. We have to act intelligently as a society and bring the infection rates down to where they are manageable. I was in Florida last week and they realize they opened too quickly and are now in trouble. The infection rate is unacceptable to the most "gung ho" politician. They had no option but to tighten things up again. Let us be smart enough learn from their mistake and beat this virus.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 14, 2020 06:39PM)
What attitude exactly? I am asking questions and if they make you uncomfortable I'm sorry but that is not my fault. Could you just explain to us how South Dakota NEVER locked down and yet are not experiencing spikes or whatever? 109 people died with no stay at home order.

Better yet don't. Again it is political. You are obviously of a point of view and discussion is impossible. You are scared and cool. No need to continue. Again this is not the place for this nonsense.

I DO love the way everyone is now an infectious disease expert! 4 Google links that prove your point of view is all it takes to be a expert in literally anything!!!
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 14, 2020 07:29PM)
"Hide in your cave" etc. show your attitude, Danny. It is common sense that we don't have to get back to 100% safe - you have taken an extreme view. You imply anyone who wants to take the generally accepted precautions "is scared". You are doing what you yourself denounced and attacking anyone with a different opinion.
As you know, no one is an expert on this virus. We look for the most professional advice. Bluster is not much use.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 14, 2020 07:36PM)
I implied no such thing. You inferred it.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 14, 2020 07:44PM)
Read your post again. You more than implied it, you said "You are scared and cool".
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 14, 2020 07:48PM)
Out of interest, since masks may in use for a while. Has anyone found a mask that it is very comfortable and easy to talk around?
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Jul 15, 2020 05:22AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Out of interest, since masks may in use for a while. Has anyone found a mask that it is very comfortable and easy to talk around? [/quote]
A good question that brings us back to the subject of this thread.

However, I think Danny asks a valid question also. I've read reports that say this will last for 2 years! I hate to bring up Trump (ensuring this thread will be deleted) but he asked months ago at what point is the cure worse than the disease? I think that was a valid question too. Are we really going to halt the economy, and life as we know it for 2 years? And don't say it won't last that long because no one thought it would last this long either back in March.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 08:12AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Out of interest, since masks may in use for a while. Has anyone found a mask that it is very comfortable and easy to talk around? [/quote]
A good question that brings us back to the subject of this thread.

However, I think Danny asks a valid question also. I've read reports that say this will last for 2 years! I hate to bring up Trump (ensuring this thread will be deleted) but he asked months ago at what point is the cure worse than the disease? I think that was a valid question too. Are we really going to halt the economy, and life as we know it for 2 years? And don't say it won't last that long because no one thought it would last this long either back in March. [/quote]

Exactly.

Again take the "T" word out of the equation. That makes it too political and heats people up for no reason. The world can not wait 2 years. People can not hide from a virus that only affects a VERY small percentage badly. But while we are at it lets look at numbers shall we? What ELSE are folks dead from? You won't believe this but they DO die from other things!

From "Wordometer" which everyone uses to scare us about this virus.

6,982,773 Communicable disease deaths this year
262,313 Seasonal flu deaths this year
4,088,552 Deaths of children under 5 this year
22,878,606 Abortions this year
166,256 Deaths of mothers during birth this year
41,944,728 HIV/AIDS infected people
904,232 Deaths caused by HIV/AIDS this year
4,417,672 Deaths caused by cancer this year
527,610 Deaths caused by malaria this year
5,993,455,758 Cigarettes smoked today
2,688,944 Deaths caused by smoking this year
1,345,320 Deaths caused by alcohol this year
576,808 Suicides this year
$ 215,183,400,698 Money spent on illegal drugs this year
726,100 Road traffic accident fatalities this year

Pick one and just think about it for a second. Also consider that MILLIONS die from TB! (Check into who that usually is and get back to me why it seems less important. Here is a hint, America is not the leading country.)

Again I offer this only as thought, not a position. Look at the world around us for just a little bit. Use your brain, don't continue to allow yourself to be cowed into submission.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 15, 2020 09:05AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Out of interest, since masks may in use for a while. Has anyone found a mask that it is very comfortable and easy to talk around? [/quote]
A good question that brings us back to the subject of this thread.

However, I think Danny asks a valid question also. I've read reports that say this will last for 2 years! I hate to bring up Trump (ensuring this thread will be deleted) but he asked months ago at what point is the cure worse than the disease? I think that was a valid question too. Are we really going to halt the economy, and life as we know it for 2 years? And don't say it won't last that long because no one thought it would last this long either back in March. [/quote]


Thank you Ken. This gets to the very heart of the matter. I have been following the situation in Florida since my visit there. When a politician admits he made a mistake (in opening up the state too early) then I believe him. That would have been a hard admission to make. We know the measures than slow the spread of this virus, and they seem to be increasingly implemented. Once we have falling rates of infection (like some states and countries) we can start getting partly back to normal in schools and businesses. Unfortunately, bars (known hot-spots of infection) may have to wait until a vaccine is found, but I hope that is much less than two years.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 09:21AM)
Where exactly did he admit they opened too early?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 15, 2020 11:59AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
What attitude exactly? I am asking questions and if they make you uncomfortable I'm sorry but that is not my fault. Could you just explain to us how South Dakota NEVER locked down and yet are not experiencing spikes or whatever? 109 people died with no stay at home order.

Better yet don't. Again it is political. You are obviously of a point of view and discussion is impossible. You are scared and cool. No need to continue. Again this is not the place for this nonsense.

I DO love the way everyone is now an infectious disease expert! 4 Google links that prove your point of view is all it takes to be a expert in literally anything!!! [/quote]


Looking at your above post, I will ask you to find your own sources of information, as anyone can do. I am more interested in when we can sensibly get back to working again and estimates of when we beat Covid-19 with a vaccine.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 01:38PM)
Again you're taking a position that we can't go back to work.

I'm not necessarily in disagreement. I'm simply pointing out you chose to give up all critical thinking about it and let those who lie to us do it for you.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 15, 2020 03:16PM)
Hi Danny,
In the context of bars and restaurants and rising infections it will be hard to get back to work. Not only because places that were newly reopened in certain states are now closing again. but social distancing, mask wearing and not handing things out make close up magic difficult. Small Birthday parties can be done by Zoom, but I don't think that would work in a restaurant or bar (except maybe online mindreading). My first hope is that daily cases of infection can be brought down so low that these places can reopen and stay open. It has happened in some places. My main hope is that a vaccine becomes available more quickly than expected)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 03:25PM)
Again I ask where did he admit they opened too soon as you claim.

Is the number of new cases shocking to you in some way? How about numbers in hospital or dead? Do you think that more or less relevant?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 15, 2020 05:54PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
What attitude exactly? I am asking questions and if they make you uncomfortable I'm sorry but that is not my fault. Could you just explain to us how South Dakota NEVER locked down and yet are not experiencing spikes or whatever? 109 people died with no stay at home order.

Better yet don't. Again it is political. You are obviously of a point of view and discussion is impossible. You are scared and cool. No need to continue. Again this is not the place for this nonsense.

I DO love the way everyone is now an infectious disease expert! 4 Google links that prove your point of view is all it takes to be a expert in literally anything!!! [/quote]


I already answered you by quoting your above post. I advised you to look up your own sources rather than denigrating mine. Read your own words, Danny, "This is not the place for this nonsense". Let us keep our eye on the goal - beating this virus so we can get back to as near normal as possible. (And temporary work-arounds)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 06:07PM)
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 15, 2020 06:20PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow. [/quote]

Hi Danny, Find out your own information, since so are so concerned about being lied to. By the way, why would I explain anything about South Dakota? I have never been there. Get your trusted sources and find out yourself. Let's get back to the point of this thread.
Message: Posted by: ekgdoc (Jul 15, 2020 08:18PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
I claim that declaring that a surgical facemask (or any cloth facemask) will prevent the wearer from contracting Covid-19 would be subject to RCT. Nothing you have stated disproves that. I don't specifically know if that is the case, but I'd be willing to bet it is.

You do not understand what an appeal to authority is if you call citing Randomized Controlled Trials as an example of it.

Your dismissal of the need for evidence comes as no surprise considering you have none...[/quote]

Kaliix,

Thanks for your response. I have just a few comments.

If a COMPANY wanted to claim that the face mask they manufacture prevents Covid infection, they might need to do an RCT. Such a company would talk to people at the FDA to find out what type of study the FDA would require for the type of claim to be made. For example, if said company could demonstrate through basic benchwork that their mask filters particles smaller than the Covid virus, then the FDA might approve the claim without any clinical studies. (I've run clinical trials and have presented to the FDA. I know the game.)

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy only because the authority might be wrong. RCTs can also be wrong. In the right context, it might be better to trust the right authority over of the results of a poorly executed RCT. I did not mean anything more than that. I think we can agree that RCTs are the gold standard of most clinical research.

I did not dismiss the need for evidence in making public health recommendations. The more evidence the better. (That's the argument for more testing.) I could site evidence supporting the wearing of masks, but I come to the Magic Café to relax. If you go to PubMed and search for "face mask covid", you'll find dozens and dozens of articles in the medical literature on the subject. No RCTs, though!

Best,
David M.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 09:09PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow. [/quote]

Hi Danny, Find out your own information, since so are so concerned about being lied to. By the way, why would I explain anything about South Dakota? I have never been there. Get your trusted sources and find out yourself. Let's get back to the point of this thread. [/quote]

You make assertions and tell others to do research? Not how it works.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 15, 2020 09:24PM)
Oh no, mistakes made in covid testing centers. In Florida and Texas, which have been reported to have a "SIGNIFICANT" increase in covid cases, made errors. 300 testing centers in Florida found 100% positive test results of ALL those tested. (100%) Well they found out it was incorrect. It was inacurate by over 10X. Also, Doctors are saying wearing masks can cause health concerns to the wearer.

We exhale for various reasons. Some of those reasons is to get rid of those things the body NEEDS to get rid of. Restricting this process for weeks and months can be more harmful. We have been lied to and given inacurate information, yet we sheep keep believing the so called authorities. Can you say POLITICS?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 15, 2020 10:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea so ya can't really answer LOL. Got it.

NO worries. It is stupid to discuss anyhow. [/quote]

Hi Danny, Find out your own information, since so are so concerned about being lied to. By the way, why would I explain anything about South Dakota? I have never been there. Get your trusted sources and find out yourself. Let's get back to the point of this thread. [/quote]
You make assertions and tell others to do research? Not how it works. [/quote]


Hi Danny,
I answered your questions by quoting your own posts that show no interest in opinions that differ from yours, despite railing against that kind of behaviour. You demanded an explanation for something in South Dakota. That was just weird. You pulled that out of nowhere. I know little about that state and I made no claims about it. So if you want to know something about that state, you look it up. Don't use the sources you constantly claim are lying, use sources you trust, if any. Since you brought it up, you do the research. That is the way it works. Don't demand that I do it. Why would I even want to? I don't find any logic in your demand, unless you know a lot about the place and want to show off.
Although I have found sensible things in your earlier posts on this topic, I have found some of the later ones a bit strange.
As I said before (and I think you agreed) let's get back to the important stuff.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 15, 2020 10:57PM)
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 15, 2020 11:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong. [/quote]
Ain't that the truth?
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 16, 2020 04:17AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong. [/quote]
Ain't that the truth? [/quote]

Actually, no.

If you look at most of the rest of the world, they got it right and have the numbers to show for it.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 16, 2020 07:26AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2020, MaxfieldsMagic wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
The world is full of experts who got big issues wrong. [/quote]
Ain't that the truth? [/quote]

Actually, no.

If you look at most of the rest of the world, they got it right and have the numbers to show for it. [/quote]
Did you do your "research" ??
;)
Message: Posted by: Kaliix (Jul 16, 2020 08:54AM)
Cloth mask wearing by the general public is not supported by the science. The WHO recently changed its guidance to NOT support cloth mask wearing by the general public. They also describe when masks should be worn and I find their guidance reasonable. https://bit.ly/2WrLqoZ

Randomized Clinical Trials, those being the gold standard of research, the following study found 10 RCT "...that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature...we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks." https://bit.ly/30fPslv

The following trial done with health care workers found that cloth masks were not only ineffective but also had higher rates of infection when using cloth masks. https://bit.ly/2OuleFX

The idea that basic cloth masks can stop virus particles isn't supported by the science.
"Results obtained in the study show that common fabric materials may provide marginal protection against nanoparticles including those in the size ranges of virus-containing particles in exhaled breath." https://bit.ly/3h7fqP2

Here is another study that found cloth masks ineffective.
"Standard N95 mask performance was used as a control to compare the results with cloth masks, and our results suggest that cloth masks are only marginally beneficial in protecting individuals from particles<2.5 microns. Compared with cloth masks, disposable surgical masks are more effective in reducing particulate exposure." https://go.nature.com/32nziJB

The whole point of masks is to prevent asymptomatic carriers from infecting others. The WHO just mentioned that it appears to be rare. This study below lends credence to what other medical professionals are seeing, that asymptomatic transmission is rare.
https://bit.ly/3ev3ZyJ https://cnb.cx/2Ch2mI0

Additionally, one must follow proper mask wearing protocols if one is not going to make spread and transmission of SARS-COVID2. Improper usage can increase the risk of transmission. How many people do you observe breaking these rules? https://bit.ly/30jb7cu

NBC and ABC both did segments about the ineffectiveness of masks before mask wearing became political. Dr. Fauci, Surgeon General Adams and Former CDC Director Frieden all stated masks are ineffective. Two major news organizations that did independent programs on the same topic both reached the same conclusion, that cloth facemasks are ineffective. That is not a coincidence. Nothing scientifically has changed since then to prove cloth masks are effective. https://nbcnews.to/2Chh2qB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZiGJUbxqww


Incidentally, appeals to authority are when you refer to what someone said because they are considered and expert or authority. I referred to actual proof in the form of a RCT versus the opinion of an authority.

[quote]On Jul 15, 2020, ekgdoc wrote:
[quote]On Jul 14, 2020, Kaliix wrote:
I claim that declaring that a surgical facemask (or any cloth facemask) will prevent the wearer from contracting Covid-19 would be subject to RCT. Nothing you have stated disproves that. I don't specifically know if that is the case, but I'd be willing to bet it is.

You do not understand what an appeal to authority is if you call citing Randomized Controlled Trials as an example of it.

Your dismissal of the need for evidence comes as no surprise considering you have none...[/quote]

Kaliix,

Thanks for your response. I have just a few comments.

If a COMPANY wanted to claim that the face mask they manufacture prevents Covid infection, they might need to do an RCT. Such a company would talk to people at the FDA to find out what type of study the FDA would require for the type of claim to be made. For example, if said company could demonstrate through basic benchwork that their mask filters particles smaller than the Covid virus, then the FDA might approve the claim without any clinical studies. (I've run clinical trials and have presented to the FDA. I know the game.)

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy only because the authority might be wrong. RCTs can also be wrong. In the right context, it might be better to trust the right authority over of the results of a poorly executed RCT. I did not mean anything more than that. I think we can agree that RCTs are the gold standard of most clinical research.

I did not dismiss the need for evidence in making public health recommendations. The more evidence the better. (That's the argument for more testing.) I could site evidence supporting the wearing of masks, but I come to the Magic Café to relax. If you go to PubMed and search for "face mask covid", you'll find dozens and dozens of articles in the medical literature on the subject. No RCTs, though!

Best,
David M. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 16, 2020 09:06AM)
Kalix his entire means of discussion is "gotcha" and no proof.

He wants to claim others suffer from the same fallacy as he does therefore his failing is not a big deal. ANOTHER fallacy but no time to soak in the irony LOL.

If you are going to start using things like facts and proof how can anyone actually talk with you on this magic board?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 16, 2020 02:24PM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Kalix his entire means of discussion is "gotcha" and no proof.

He wants to claim others suffer from the same fallacy as he does therefore his failing is not a big deal. ANOTHER fallacy but no time to soak in the irony LOL.

If you are going to start using things like facts and proof how can anyone actually talk with you on this magic board? [/quote]



The exchange between Kaliix and ekgdoc was professional and very relevant. I found your above attack on one of them to be unpleasant and unnecessary. You constantly bemoan the quality of discussion and deceitfully demand proofs that you have already trashed.
I repeat, let us get back to the important stuff of how to handle "the new normal".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 16, 2020 02:32PM)
You do see the irony of pretending to be morally superior by demanding we get back to the topic, while still engaging in the of topic posts right?

And defining what "new normal" seems to be relevant. You don't think there is a choice in doing so. Last time I looked in America we used to have choice in things. It would be nice if the information given to us by those we entrusted to help us was not shrouded in lies they admit to.

Also you made the claim the the Governor of Florida said they opened too early. I can't seem to find him saying that. All I ask is you give a link to him saying that so I can be educated.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 16, 2020 03:40PM)
I didn't name the politician or his position. (I have just checked the post to make sure). You can check it yourself too.
You say "All I ask is a link to him saying that so I can be educated", but you and I know that is a lie - my source for that statement is your previous posts, which are right there for all to see.
I have been reading daily about Florida, but I have no idea why you demanded information about South Dakota from me.You have not addressed that strange behaviour.
I hope you see the irony of continuing a discussion that you have been emphatically calling pointless in a number of your above posts.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 16, 2020 04:14PM)
You're confused. I'm asking where three governor of FLORIDA said he made a mistake by reopening?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 16, 2020 04:36PM)
No you are confused. I said "a politician". Read my post more carefully. (I could quote it but I want you to do your own research).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 16, 2020 07:46PM)
Which politician are you speaking of?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 16, 2020 08:14PM)
I deliberately did not say the name or position of this person so that it would not become political.
The point was that you can trust that a politician who admits making a mistake, is telling the truth. This could apply to any politician.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 16, 2020 10:54PM)
And somehow I am supposed to "research" that? Are you joking or trolling or just don't get it?

I am going to go ahead and doubt it ever happened.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 17, 2020 03:03AM)
I keep hoping the "new normal" on the Café
is magicians helping magicians and discussing magic ...

and only magic effects and their performance
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 17, 2020 07:47AM)
I was watching an interview with Lou Holtz, Hall of Fame Coach who made a profound statement.
"Don't keep me alive to keep me from living"
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 08:54AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
And somehow I am supposed to "research" that? Are you joking or trolling or just don't get it?

I am going to go ahead and doubt it ever happened. [/quote]


Great. I am not researching South Dakota either, despite your demand. After your tirade trashing sources of information as lies, I am not giving you my sources of information. I have said that before and that is final.
Now lets get back to the main topic.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 09:08AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
I was watching an interview with Lou Holtz, Hall of Fame Coach who made a profound statement.
"Don't keep me alive to keep me from living" [/quote]


Thanks for that. It is a version of the saying "in the long run, we are all dead" - John Maynard Keynes. It is a "Carpe diem" or "seize the day" type of philosophy.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 09:29AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
And somehow I am supposed to "research" that? Are you joking or trolling or just don't get it?

I am going to go ahead and doubt it ever happened. [/quote]


Great. I am not researching South Dakota either, despite your demand. After your tirade trashing sources of information as lies, I am not giving you my sources of information. I have said that before and that is final.
Now lets get back to the main topic. [/quote]
So you just make assertions and don't back them up. Got it. Usually though the way it works is you put up supporting information for your claim. It is not up to others to back up your claim. Generally that responsibility falls on toy
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 09:41AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
And somehow I am supposed to "research" that? Are you joking or trolling or just don't get it?

I am going to go ahead and doubt it ever happened. [/quote]


Great. I am not researching South Dakota either, despite your demand. After your tirade trashing sources of information as lies, I am not giving you my sources of information. I have said that before and that is final.

Now lets get back to the main topic. [/quote]
So you just make assertions and don't back them up. Got it. Usually though the way it works is you put up supporting information for your claim. It is not up to others to back up your claim. Generally that responsibility falls on toy [/quote]

I clearly explained why in my post. You keep stirring don't you. By the way what do you mean by your last word "Toy" or is that just garbled. You never took any responsibility for your South Dakota demand, or was that a mistake?
Now, back to the main topic (sigh).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 10:10AM)
It was a point. But no worries. I don't think you made a mistake, I think you made an assertion you don't wish to back up just to further your point of view.

And frankly it is a pretty big deal. You want to talk about moving the conversation forward and that can't be done if things just get said that are felt as opposed to proven.

South Dakota was an alternative way to handle things is all and I thought that point of view should be represented in any real discussion.

It seems as if you only want to push one point of view and any other is stirring the pot. You don't want to discuss you want to implement an agenda. Which is fine if you just say it and don't disguise it as discussion.

And also it must be exhausting taking to people who think instead of being cowed so yea I get your sarcastic sigh.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 10:51AM)
Thanks for explaining the South Dakota thing. (I don't know anything about the place). What happened with the last word "toy" in your previous post? Did you mean something else?
I agree with you that there are lies and distortions in the media, but the tirade you made about sources in one of your posts made me wary about giving up my own personal sources to be trashed. One persons source is another persons "Fake news". It will definitely get much worse as elections get closer and winning becomes all important. Truth will suffer even more. Yes we have to think for ourselves. There are people out there who are trying their professional best, but they are not always the loudest voice.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 12:19PM)
They are RARELY the loudest voice.

If you think the source of information it's not relevant ok. To most it dies master. Information with an agenda is very dangerous don't you think?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 12:32PM)
Yes, very true.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Jul 17, 2020 01:17PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, davidpaul$ wrote:
I was watching an interview with Lou Holtz, Hall of Fame Coach who made a profound statement.
"Don't keep me alive to keep me from living" [/quote]


Thanks for that. It is a version of the saying "in the long run, we are all dead" - John Maynard Keynes. It is a "Carpe diem" or "seize the day" type of philosophy. [/quote]

Really? Translation- "The cure is worse than the disease". Don't know how you you come up with those reponses. But hey, I respect your thought process.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 01:56PM)
Thanks, I also respect your thought processes. I wasn't being critical.
All 4 statements are appropriate for discussion on where we are now and how we are going to handle the problem of how fast we can get back to work.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 04:13PM)
Out of curiosity have you been put out of work by this?
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 06:07PM)
Most definitely. My last performance was a free Zoom Birthday party for a child of someone I know. The next one will be at a Summer Camp in August in a large hall with plenty of social distancing.
Just finishing my 14 days quarantine since arriving from Miami. Probably why your "Are you going to hide in a cave?" comment really irritated me.
Still it is a nice hotel room that I don't have to pay for, so I can't complain.
Looking forward to leaving here and practising with Zoom. I have to work hard to keep everything in view of the camera. Still have to work out a pricing policy and extra lighting for Zoom performances.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 06:31PM)
So I guess you know that just because it irritated you in no way makes it an invalid question.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 06:43PM)
True. Are you also out of work? I assume that bars and restaurants are not hiring right now, but there might be things like Summer camps that are happening over the next month or two.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 07:28PM)
Broadway shut down so that was the end for me.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jul 17, 2020 07:54PM)
Sorry to hear that. Hope things start reopening soon. A big indicator will be if the schools are able to reopen for actual classes at the end of August. At the moment they are talkng about hybrid classes - some days on-line, some days in person.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 17, 2020 10:29PM)
Not everywhere.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 19, 2020 05:35PM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
So I guess you know that just because it irritated you in no way makes it an invalid question. [/quote]

Hey Danny - do you ever have anything positive, or even informative, to add to a thread? Because reading through everything you’ve written on this one, you seem like a stereotypical grouchy contrarian git who enjoys arguing for argument’s sake.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 20, 2020 08:20AM)
That seemed ironically unproductive didn't it?

I suppose others can answer that better than I. But name calling? Seriously?

Why would you come back after the time has passed just to call names? Kind of silly if you ask me but whatever.

But to clarify asking you to post proof of what you claim is being grumpy. Asking people to think for themselves is grumpy. Pointing out inconsistency in things we have been told is grumpy.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 20, 2020 09:07AM)
But as long as you are SO hungry information here is one of those RCT thingies he was talking about. Maybe you have seen it?

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

And some information on kids in schools.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/schools-reopening-coronavirus/2020/07/10/865fb3e6-c122-11ea-8908-68a2b9eae9e0_story.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-07-13/german-study-shows-low-coronavirus-infection-rate-in-schools

Just because I choose actual information gathering over fear does not make me contrarian. Far from it.

To be clear I AM IN NO WAY encouraging anyone not to wear a mask. I am not even taking a position on the subject. I am however encouraging people to educate themselves. Because the people who have been entrusted with doing so for us have lied to us repeatedly.

Now this is the part in a normal discussion where YOU would post some information from some sources YOU have and then it becomes a discussion among adults. You refuse to ever do that so lord only knows what it will become now. Kalix posted links to things to be considered as well. This makes it easier to separate fact from hyperbolic political speech.
Message: Posted by: DavidMac (Jul 22, 2020 09:37AM)
Wow, just checked in on this post, didn't expect it to go in the direction it has.

Can't see performing at any wedding events in the near future with restrictions still in place in the UK, live music is going to suffer too. Finding my feet online for the time being. Will just have to see how it goes.
Message: Posted by: peppermeat2000 (Jul 22, 2020 08:04PM)
I'm finding that some magicians are not interested in the ZOOM format for performing. Curious to find out from those who are reinventing their acts for this medium are moving along.
Message: Posted by: jack_shields (Aug 20, 2020 07:57AM)
There are about 5 useful posts related to the topic. If you want to discuss politics do one to politicscafe.com and do it there.

I'm sort of with you DavidMac, kind of like the idea of a stationary 'performance area' but that does mean that you can't escape troublesome spectators haha.

If anyone wants to actually talk about the topic and has any suggestions on work arounds I for one would be interested to hear.
Message: Posted by: griz326 (Oct 14, 2020 01:23AM)
Aside from being bummed by the limited opportunities to perform, the inability to perform for hundreds of people a month dulls performance skills. You can't video practice your way to razor sharp audience entertainment skill.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 14, 2020 07:40AM)
I'll tell you the thing that really bites is that participation in this is not voluntary. It used to be that if TV talking heads claimed recession I would simply refuse to participate. Go ahead have one without me.

It never matters what they say I lived my life.

THIS is different! This may have opinions, but holy cow is it real. Not participating isn't an option even if you thought that was the why to go. (I don't think that by the way.)

Looks like we may be on the back end of the problem, maybe. The other fallout may take longer though.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Oct 19, 2020 09:30PM)
Here's how I educated myself:

My decision came from:
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeEBn4ttZZY mask types and results, plus no mask (this and similar videos)
2. everyone wears a mask during surgery (raise your hand if you'd prefer them not to)
3. Those I respect e.g., Fauci, Redfield, Birx are adamant about wearing masks and social distancing
4. Based on what I think is common sense, I do not believe in mask conspiracy theories such as (the govt is trying to blah, blah, blah, and drink our blood)

To me it is all quite straight-forward, easy to do, harmless. . . whatevs.

I'll save my outrage for other, more pressing things.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 19, 2020 10:25PM)
Try being claustrophobic and having to wear a mask.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Oct 19, 2020 10:38PM)
Yep. Not fun, I'd imagine.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 20, 2020 08:30AM)
My main point being blanket statements simply don't work.
Message: Posted by: griz326 (Oct 20, 2020 11:19AM)
FACT: Based on molecular weight of the COVID virus, all common masks are porous.

Those common masks do block a percentage of the discharge from a cough or sneeze; that is the limit of such a masks usefulness. Common masks provide a small measure of mitigation. I know this from writing a white paper on ultra-filtration, the separation of molecules by molecular weight.

In the operating room, personnel usually wear an N95 or N99 mask covered by a common mask. This is what you see Joe Biden wearing.

The seal around the mask is also important to proper functioning. Common masks have no seal; 95s and 99s must be properly fitted for maximum seal. Facial hair makes a proper seal impossible.

Mask wearing provides little benefit for the wearer unless it is a 95 or 99. It does provide some benefit for the people near you.

A healthcare worker "with a cold" gave my mother the flu; she was not wearing a mask. It killed her. For that reason, I wear a mask in closed spaces despite O2 saturation issues.

So can we lose the politics in this thread, please!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 20, 2020 12:47PM)
Wow hit seem to be the authority. Please call those in power to let them know.

Wrote an entire paper on it did you?

I have no clue if you are right or wrong. But I'm fairly certain the doctors Frank mentioned have at least SOME experience in the matter as well. Maybe they have even written a paper on the subject.
Message: Posted by: griz326 (Oct 20, 2020 11:40PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

...I'm fairly certain the doctors Frank mentioned have at least SOME experience in the matter as well. [/quote]

Then you'd probably be wrong. Ultra-filtration is a highly-specialized field and far removed from doctoring. Docs likely know far less about ultra-filtration than they do about pharmaceuticals. It is likely that most docs would understand the science once explained to them. When I wrote the white paper almost 40 years ago the topic was just beginning to become commercially available to the research scientists who read the white paper.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 21, 2020 10:07AM)
I'm going to go ahead and believe those in charge of countering infections disease have indeed heard of the concept.
Message: Posted by: Kyoki_Sanitys_Eclipse (Oct 21, 2020 09:43PM)
Ive had to adapt my entire act. I usually perform in the hands close up magic. I enjoy the personal connection it creates at that distance. I don't enjoy being the center with everyone focused only on me.
However, when I recieved the call to perform weekly for my local cornmaze I knew I would have to adapt. So I started practicing a type of street style show? I put together a set that could easily be enjoyed from 6 plus feet back and went to work. I am stationary and call people to me. Then I perform two dollar window, my 3 fly, Laflins color changing silk, and Vernons cups and balls. Its been a nice change but I'm not sure about having a group stare at me. Also, I don't always perform them all or wven in this order.
Message: Posted by: gotgot (Nov 9, 2020 02:30PM)
Hello
What do you guys perform for a zoom kid birthday party?
I'm having my first one soon...
so far I was thinking to do the usual stuff that I do, only much shorter (like 20 min in total) coloring book, teleportation water, SOCKS, rope magic, sponge balls coming from my mouth. I really don't know how that'll play.
are those who do it happy with the way it goes? do the children enjoy it? how long does your show last?
thank you!
Message: Posted by: David French (Nov 10, 2020 07:25AM)
I may get some flack for this, but I have not changed anything in my act. Every area, venue and owner is different. I have been back to a few of my Restaurant gigs for a couple of months. I am shocked at the reception I receive from the guests and staff, which is enthusiastic and welcoming. I work on guests tables with a close up mat, in the hands material and up close. I do wear a mask and take extra time to ensure the guests are comfortable with magic up close. I have had no issues. Again, your area may vary and mine is always subject to change.
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Nov 11, 2020 02:24PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, DavidMac wrote:
[quote]On Jun 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is not as long off as it seems. [/quote]

That is true, it may not be far off but people's uncertainty will remain long after we return to normal and we'll have to work with it. [/quote]

No it won't. Look at the pictures of Las Vegas and tell me about "new normal" after reopening.

I believe it will only be a big deal as long as performers make it one. [/quote]
People who make a special trip to Los Vegas to throw away their money, are not normal.
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Nov 14, 2020 01:38PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2020, Vandecarr wrote:
Imgic,

I'm not busking in Kansas City...

But good attempt at a weak ploy

The Kung Flu has a survival rate of 99.4%

It's only dangerous for .06% of people.

If you believe everything you hear on TV you are in serious trouble.

Furthermore, mandatory masks are idiotic!

After 7 months of the virus, making masks mandatory now, is like wearing a condom to the baby shower.

Wake up and smell the toast burning!!!

America has been played and it will continue... Until the day after the election! [/quote]
If you wore a condom, we wouldn't have to have the baby shower.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 14, 2020 03:12PM)
I bet this stuff sounds funny as you type.
Message: Posted by: EZrhythm (Nov 14, 2020 04:39PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2020, Vandecarr wrote:
Imgic,

I'm not busking in Kansas City...

But good attempt at a weak ploy

The Kung Flu has a survival rate of 99.4%

It's only dangerous for .06% of people.

If you believe everything you hear on TV you are in serious trouble.

Furthermore, mandatory masks are idiotic!

After 7 months of the virus, making masks mandatory now, is like wearing a condom to the baby shower.

Wake up and smell the toast burning!!!

America has been played and it will continue... Until the day after the election! [/quote]

Well said Vandecarr! -Except for "...the day after the election" part. America will continue to be played.

What new normal? I haven't come out of the old normal. I don't change a thing. No mask, no distancing other than what has already been established as normal in society before this scamdemic. There are plenty of people who don't fall for the hype and deception that is being poured out on the people. No sense performing for those who blindly and unreasonably go along with nonsensicle restrictions. Now if there is an instance where someone has a compromised immune system or condition truly warranting precautions then appropriate plannning can be done.
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Nov 21, 2020 10:23AM)
Just giving a progress report since the gloom of Spring and Summer.
This Island (non-US) had very strict precautions (masks, distancing, curfew) in the Summer and still has a 14 day quarantine for all incoming visitors and returning residents. For over two months now there has been no community cases of covid-19 (only among those in quarantine) so everything is open here, schools, churches, restaurants and bars. No masks needed except at the Hospital, groups of up to 500 people allowed. Tourism is zero of course (except for "staycations" for residents which are booming).
So I have been able to get back to doing magic shows since Halloween and I am booked for some Christmas Dinners. Everyone is fairly confident that the virus has been defeated here. A great sense of freedom.
The world has changed, but I hope that other areas soon manage to bring this virus under control. Good luck in your region.
Message: Posted by: shooz (Nov 27, 2020 07:32AM)
Hi all,
Been reading the back and forth and while I don't have any answers, I do have a question and a statement I heard....
A radio personality told a story do a cat that was reported to have died of Covid. He investigated and found that the cat was 16 years old, had many health problems and.... The owner had the cat put down. But doctors "thought" the cat may have had Covid when it died. This led the radio person to ask "how many people have does WITH Covid and how many have died FROM Covid. Makes you think a bit. Also heard that somewhere near Erie, Pa. It was reported a young man had died from Covid. But his mother went on TV in the following weeks to correct the story....he had died from wrecking his truck into a utility pole. And she had a tough time getting a news station that would tell her story. Again, these are statements I've heard.
And question I have is again from stories I've heard...... Do hospitals get more money when reporting a Covid death compared to death from natural causes? I have heard this many times but can't back up this info.
Just some food for thought and looking for answers.
Shooz
Message: Posted by: imgic (Nov 27, 2020 12:37PM)
I work for a hospital group.

Hospitals DO NOT make money from Covid. While the CARES act provides assistance to healthcare facilities for treating Covid patients, it’s to encourage people without insurance, or worried about copays, to seek help to help contain the virus. The money provided often does not cover actual costs.

Hospitals are losing large amounts of money because of Covid. Elective surgeries are not allowed during restrictions. Elective surgeries bring in large amount of revenue. Our campus the does heart and brain surgery is running millions of dollars in the red every month. Smaller hospitals theoughout the country, especially in rural areas, are going bankrupt at alarming rate.

Regarding reporting Covid Deaths, there are strict protocols when reporting deaths. Only deaths directly caused by Covid (as defined by CDC) are listed as Covid as cause of death. Anyone who passes that is positive for Covid reported, but only that they had Covid, not that it’s the cause of death. This is done for tracking purposes. Unfortunately manny misunderstand this metric and says that a Covid is being stated as cause of death. There is no financial incentive for reporting Covid deaths. In fact, hospitals would be better off underreporting Covid deaths so they could do more surgeries and admit more patients.

Lastly,, this is beginning to take a huge toll on caregivers. Recent report has 51% of hospitals across the US facing critical staffing shortages. Doctors, nurses, support staff are getting sick, and dying. Others are getting burnt out and quitting.

We can all help by wearing masks, social distancing, and staying home for the holidays.

Be well and be safe.
Message: Posted by: shooz (Nov 27, 2020 08:18PM)
Thanks Imgic, for responding with this info.
I wear a mask when required and do respect those that I work with.
My company has restricted travel for all sales people for the immediate future. Probably a good idea as I cover 3 states.
I will look further into these stories I hear, to see if I can find answers. But I also don't want to get caught up in the fear that seems to be on all news stations.
Scott Shoemaker ...Shooz
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Nov 28, 2020 12:00AM)
Reality check. Look around you. Watch people as they shop, pump gas or go through the bank drive through. I went through the bank drive through. That's safe right??? You know the capsule you put your transactions in, press the button and it travels to the teller inside? I asked the teller if they disinfect the capsule, he said "NO". How many people used that capsule after wiping their nose or cough in their hand or fill in the blank.

I watched a guy at a grocery store pull his masked down to talk on his cell phone,he then sneezed into his hand and when he was done started to pick up produce and put it back for whatever reason and continued to shop and pick up things to look at.

How about masks? How many people cover their nose as well as their mouth? Unless it is a special N95
hospital grade worn properly anything else won't work.

It's all "feel good". People are people. If everyone in the US was Covid free and just one person
wasn't, guess what, it would spread again just the way it began just like the flu. I'm not drinking the main stream media Kool-aid. You won't hear about the medical experts in the field that have different opinions that contradict what we are being fed. My opinions only.

I am fed up with all the closings and restrictions especially the Governor of Pa mandating that restaurants could not sell alcohol after 5:00 pm Thanksgiving eve until 8:00:am Thanksgiving day. Don't try to save my life to keep me from living.

(Hi Scott -Shooz)
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Dec 17, 2020 01:22PM)
Great that a vaccine is ready for mass distribution. Finally, victory over Covid-19 is in sight. Let's hope that we can hold out a few more weeks and then return to the old normal.
Message: Posted by: snm (Dec 19, 2020 09:02PM)
[quote]On Dec 17, 2020, TheMightyRicardo wrote:
Great that a vaccine is ready for mass distribution. Finally, victory over Covid-19 is in sight. Let's hope that we can hold out a few more weeks and then return to the old normal. [/quote]

A few weeks? It's going to be 6+ months...
Message: Posted by: TheMightyRicardo (Jan 12, 2021 09:19PM)
I was vaccinated yesterday (due to my advanced age), I will get the booster shot on Feb 1st. Some tourist areas are planning to open up in March for those who have a vaccination certificate (with no need to quarantine). The number of people who are vaccinated is going to rapidly increase over the coming months, but I agree that the program in the US looks like it is going more slowly than planned.