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Topic: Automatic Placement: Overkill vs The 32nd Sense vs The EP Principle?
Message: Posted by: ipe (Jul 20, 2020 09:02AM)
Originally posted in The Worker forum, I repost it here hoping for more participation. :-)

Hi everyone,
I'm deepening my study on the "Automatic Placement" principle.

I saw this principle implemented in John Bannon's "The 32nd Sense" (Move Zero Vol.3). I'm wondering whether Woody Aragon's "The EP Principle" and Paul Harris's "Overkill" are using the "Automatic Placement" principle too.

Here are a some differences between Bannon's effect and the other two:

- "The 32nd Sense" vs "The EP Principle". In "The 32nd Sense" the cards removed from the spectator are not added again to the deck and the order of the deck is not changed during the counting. Whereas in "The EP Principle" the counted cards are reversed and the removed cards are place on top of the deck.

- "The 32nd Sense" vs "Overkill". In "The 32nd Sense" you count from the top, whereas in "Overkill" you count from the bottom of the pile. This has a great impact on the overall effect: in "The 32nd Sense" you force an unknown chosen card to end up to a specific position, but in "Overkill" you are forcing a specific card.

Are all three effects based on the "Automatic Placement" principle? Are there other and different applications of this principle or are there other similar principles?

From a spectator point of view, "The 32nd Sense" and "The EP Principle" are the same effect. Which one do you prefer and why?

Thank you
Message: Posted by: mantel (Jul 21, 2020 11:39PM)
I don’t know what the automatic placement principle is. However I am familiar with Overkill. That being what you described reminds me of Gene Finell ‘s Free-Cut Principle.

Message: Posted by: ipe (Jul 24, 2020 09:47AM)
Hi mantel, thank you for pointing me out the Free-Cut Principle, I didn't know and I think it is a little gem. ;-)

Regarding the automatic placement, I learn it in Move Zero Vol. 3 (John Bannon). In Move Zero you can find the principle implemented in the effect "The 32nd Sense" but there is also a stand-alone chapter all dedicated to the theory behind this principle.

Other sources for the automatic placement principle: https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/category/722. (But I didn't read any of those books.)

Since you know Overkill, do you know the name of the principle behind it?

Lastly, I want to mention another principle similar to the automatic placement: the PM principle. You can read it freely here: http://mallofmagic.com/free%20stuff/PM%20Principle.PDF
Message: Posted by: mantel (Jul 24, 2020 05:47PM)
I have sent you a private message
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Jul 26, 2020 06:47AM)
As you certainly already know, the original article where the name of the principle has been introduced was:
Ed Marlo's Automatic Placement in: New Phoenix, #329, August 1955, p. 126.

However, as you can see from the conjuringarchive references, the principle has been used before (some historical notes can be found in The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley, Vol. II, "Spell by the Numbers" (p. 349).

And one more child belonging to the same family is: "The Principle of Equal Piles" in Ramón Rioboó's "Thinking the Impossible" (p. 13).
Message: Posted by: ipe (Jul 27, 2020 03:27AM)
Hi Saxonia,
thank you for the references. Good, so the Woody Aragon's "The EP Principle" of which I speak in the opening post is a variant of the Automatic Placement.
Message: Posted by: ipe (Jul 27, 2020 03:39AM)
Thanks to Mantel, I discovered that the principle in Overkill is the Clock Principle. Besides, the Clock Principle is a variant of the automatic placement principle.

So, at the end, as I have hypnotized in my opening post, all three effects (Overkill, The 32nd Sense and The EP Principle) are using the automatic placement principle (or variations of it).

Another similar principle is the Undo Principle (in Simon Aronson's Prior Commitment).

I think there is still much to explore!
Message: Posted by: IZ1POZ (Nov 7, 2020 01:26AM)
I studied the EP principale a bit, in particular the handling of Woody Aragon. I was playing with the deck and I probably found another good (I hope) method to reveal the selected card after shifting it in a more easy to force position. Can't write more there but I'm ready to discuss it with anyone interested.