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Topic: Covidiocy
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Sep 8, 2020 07:33PM)
I had my first live show in months last night. My, my -- how things have changed!

This client has booked me for this same event for a number of years. It's an incentive show for salespeople who win contests to go on a trip. Generally this is a very active...really BUSY group. Every other year I have entered the room to a wall of sound: people talking, glasses clinking. Laughter. Ordinarily, I just walk into the room and slide into an event already underway. Not last night.

My client had booked me for "socially distanced personal entertainment." I know that sounds strange. I spent a little time trying to come to grips with exactly what that meant myself. Ultimately my client and I decided it's close-up (performed for small groups of people) with Covid sensibilities and guidelines built into the structure of the show and the effects.

So last night I walked in and saw them all sitting apart from each other. Even so the room was less than half full. They were all wearing masks...and the instant I entered the majority of them turned and looked at me. It was just a little creepy. The room was mostly silent. I looked at my client who shrugged. She had no idea what to do either.

Let me emphasize: the room was almost completely silent. Me. Masks. (Getting creepier.)

So my planned Covid friendly close-up set became a mini-show. They ALL watched in the same way they would have watched a stage event.

It went reasonably well. Laugher and "ooohs" in the right places....but MAN did I work for it! I wound up doing an impromptu Q and A...mini readings...long circles of reveals. I did effects I haven't performed in a while. But it worked.

I was exceptionally grateful because as I said I had only close-up props with me and no sound system. It's a smallish group so I was able to project -- although I was surprised at how out of shape my voice had become during that long layoff.

At the end of the "show" I saw the client standing outside the room. I walked over and we just looked at each other for a minute. Then she looked back at the room and said something about the "new normal" that I can't repeat here. But in our conversation she also said that the turnout for this event was less than half of what had been planned for. The event -- like so many others -- was a breath away from being cancelled. Many of the people invited on the trip chose not to risk travel. She had to make special room layout arrangements...have the liquor served at the tables...provide masks...cancel the buffet...much more. She was a little shell shocked by all these changes.

Me too.

Good as it felt to be performing again -- even 'impromptu' -- there is no question things are very different. A few of the highlights:

1) People are committed to their masks. I get that and I respect it. Of course, I wouldn't dream of asking one of my volunteers to remove their mask. But the presence of masks created some significant challenges. First? I can't see their whole face -- just their eyes. This made reading their expressions much more difficult. Given that so much of what I do involves reading expressions and body language...and many of these expressions and micro expressions are shown on the whole face...I found my abilities severely handicapped. This made cold-reading -- starting with a few of the most basic Forer statements and building from there -- much more important. But to be honest with you, I never realized how dependant I am on being able to see a face.

1a) Since convention demands I keep my mask on...they can't see my whole face either which significantly hamstrings my ability to communicate.

1b) It is a LOT harder to understand someone speaking through a mask and MUCH harder to project to a room through one.

2) People are much more tentative. Fortunately "Covid friendly" meant I had designed effects that don't involve me passing any materials to the volunteer. Think about it: basic effects like MOABT require you to pass a book to the volunteer, right? Many of these people were on red alert for any form of contact. I say again: These were SALESPEOPLE. They are ordinarily the most outgoing of audiences -- ready for anything. Not these people. No pendulum (a mainstay of my closeup shows)...no Cent** Tear...no -- well you get the idea.

3) I had to really REALLY work to get them into a show frame of mind. To enter into the whole notion of a mentalism show...to laugh out loud. Eventually they did loosen up but not all the way. If you've done stage shows, you know what I'm talking about. That...something...between me and the audience was there...but it felt very far away.

4) Masks do something to the way people interact...even with each other. It's weird. To me, mentalism is all about interaction...so.........

We all have our own opinions on the pandemic. I certainly do. But this post isn't about that. I'm not trying to start a fight...just explain that, as an entertainer, I was walking into a whole new kind of environment. Admittedly I have only done the one event...and I did it with props designed for something entirely different...but things have changed. Really. There was a breath of fear in that room and a tentative nature that I have not seen before other than the shows I've done for women's shelters etc.

What people believe does determine their own reality. A certain segment of my audience last night believed there was a threat to their health -- an idea reinforced by the whole strangeness of the event. Masks. Seating...no working the room...no trips to the bar. No buffet. All of it is just going to draw attention to the threat and away from having a good time.

To be absolutely clear: I am NOT dumping on the situation and I am NOT saying the precautions are excessive. I am NOT denigrating the concern people have for their health or the steps they take to protect it. I am simply saying that, judging by what I saw last night, from an entertainer's perspective, the fabric of events has changed. Audiences have changed.

The scope of changes WE are going to have to make in order to keep pace with the "new normal" is huge. Really...huge. I think it can be done. For example: I think I am going to consider wearing a face shield instead of mask -- depending on what that does to a mic.....I guess......maybe I can figure out a way to get sterile face shields for my volunteers? Hmmm. Again.

Hmm...

Welcome to "Interesting Times."

David
Message: Posted by: ElliottB (Sep 8, 2020 09:06PM)
That is a very interesting and informative post.
I am not sure why, but some places only allow masks; no face shields.
I don't know why, or how pervasive this is.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 9, 2020 07:55AM)
I am not performing and have no immediate plans too, but have been re-writing many effect descriptions to allow for social distancing and fear of touching objects.
For conjuring many effects will be eliminated all together as the modifications result in tossing the baby with the bath water - coin work especially.

For Mentalism (real and pretended) I have come to realize how much I have depended on "interactive body language" in the past.
The jab in the side form a spouse, the spontaneous touching of another's arm or knee, whispers, etc.
Mostly I dread the loss of gestalt energy in which excitement and astonishment is infectious and a "powerful witness" or measure of audience temperament, interest and anticipation.
In Helstomism I rely on this as much as the single person contact.

I guess my point is that David's observations accentuate my concerns over how much the "fear of contagion" can stifle attitude and awareness as much as the physical actions.
If the use of this Gestalt energy (or my awareness of it) is a from of ESP, then Codidiocy may have gelded me and my abilities as a mystic arts performer.

I used to observe/sense this group dynamic bonding flow in terms of color, a misty wave of pastel hue that changed in ripples and waves during a performance.
I would speed up or slow down, make gestures to a certain part of the room, modify voice volume, pitch or tenor in response -- all to avoid any drifting in of grey.

Now I may sense nothing but grey or color shifting too slowly to be os use. And yes, such fear on my part could influence my enthusiasm and projection and presence.

Kudo's to those who will go out and perform and bring back news of life beneath the ashes. Alas, I must re-write some effect again ...
Message: Posted by: johnhsawyer (Sep 9, 2020 09:32AM)
Hi David,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm used to presenting and training a live audience. Next month will be my first online training and I'm already dreading not being able to walk around the tables, talk to the participants and see their reactions to what I'm saying. I don't think I would enjoy the alternative with everyone wearing masks and sitting there with guarded expressions and body language.

My family and I were up in Hilton Head a few weeks ago, where I was able to connect virtually with the wonderful Mick Ayres. While there, my wife and I snuck away for a date night to see the Comedy Magic Cabaret (https://www.comedymagiccabaret.com). I'm including the statement below from the site for reference.

[quote]Seating will be less than 50% capacity with separation between parties. The town of Hilton Head requires masks to be worn indoors unless consuming food and beverages. Audience members will not be required to participate without their consent. Also please be informed that performers will not be wearing masks on stage due to the nature of our entertainment. We are excited to resume shows and look forward to seeing you soon![/quote]

As noted, the performers did not wear a mask and neither did the participants who came up on stage. The show was fun and the audience all seemed to have a great time...the great bartenders aided greatly in that. ;)

I think the venue and the set expectations will all have a great effect on how the audience reacts. In Hilton Head, most of the audience are there for vacation and likely less 'afraid' as they're already accepting the risk by being on vacation. Those salespeople may have felt more at-risk because they felt they had to be there for work and may have had to endure air travel, which is no fun these days.

Again, thank you for sharing your experience. I truly hope you see more positive change as you are able to perform more over the coming months.

-jhs
Message: Posted by: The Unmasked Magician (Sep 9, 2020 12:41PM)
Thanks so much for sharing your story, David. I completely agree with your analysis of what happens to the atmosphere and interaction and why in that situation. Please keep on posting your experiences. I really appreciate reading them. And I know many do.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 9, 2020 04:34PM)
I recently did a Blues Brothers gig in the Villages. 40 to 50 golf carts lined the street. There were several lawn parties within the immediate area of the Driveway we sang in. Only one mask that I saw in 70 to 100 people. They sat in their carts sipping their favorite retirement beverage or walked back and forth from the lawn parties or talking to others along the street. The cops came but they were met by residents at the end of the street and never came near our performance area. Dozens got their pictures taken with us and the Blues Mobile. This seams to be the new normal in some areas of Florida and I'm good with it because it's even better than the old normal. The tips for a one hour performance were a little better than my all day fee at Universal. I will be doing a Halloween show this year, Houdini's Ghost, and I'm going to try to use a similar process as this!!!!! :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Danny Archer (Sep 10, 2020 06:48PM)
What is happening around the world affects our kind of entertainment more than any other. You can watch a concert and not go on stage with the band, same with a play, dance, comedy, or practically any other form of entertainment. Only magicians and mentalists go in the audience or bring spectators on stage, borrow props from them or give them things to hold.

The very nature of performance has changed... so we must change the way we present our art...
Message: Posted by: Jed Maxwell (Sep 11, 2020 03:57AM)
Slim King, your admission of running non-socially distanced photoshoots, whilst not wearing a mask, with dozens of non-masked customers beggars belief. You gloat that you made a little more than a days wage at Universal from an hours work. This pursuit of your self-interest during a global pandemic is the prime example of "covidiocy". Your profession draws people together so you can draw a wage. To heck with the consequences, because you finagled some tax-free chump change. You endanger the image of all performers. Does your employer know?

It seems David Thiel agrees with you, which is a shame as I have agreed with him on many points. Not this.

I'm not arguing with any of you. I have lambasted others that have turned this forum into an echo-chamber for the socially maladjusted and internet addicted. I just making a statement because this is my last post. I have been here a year, and quickly realized that there are other ways I can learn mentalism without having to swath through the writings of the lonely and the kooks. Goodbye, and good day to you.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Sep 11, 2020 11:59AM)
I am not sure how exactly a post about how mentalists are going to have to deal with a "new normal" turned into one of those nasty fights. But this IS the Cafť...and there IS a reason why many people have chosen to quit posting here.

I have my own opinions about Covid...but I went WAY out of my way to make clear that my post wasn't about those opinions. Why? Because a discussion of Covid (the disease) has no place in a mentalism site. I absolutely did not want this to happen.

It is a fact that Covid has had a massive impact on mentalism and its performance. That was the point of my whole post. Now I have a complete stranger -- someone I've never even had the slightest communication with -- feeling he has the right to chide me and and then presuming to tell people what I think about Covid. Ummm...what?

I'm not mad (well maybe a little) but mostly you guys just make me tired.

David
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Sep 11, 2020 12:30PM)
Jed, I read Davidís post more as regret that the situation is what it is, not as a desire to ignore safety. Slim, however, seems to be throwing responsibility to the wind.

This is a really bad time. Performers are in an especially unpleasant place. A friend of mine is a stage actor. He was recently hospitalized for kidney trouble and had to use Go Fund Me to pay the bills. He has been out of work for 7 months. Self employed folks who donít have a trust fund are in a scary situation right now. And I canít blame anyone for looking for a way to perform, to do their jobs, and make ends meet.

That said, to ignore safety guidelines and say ďit is my right to lick the plague rats and cough on youĒ is terribly irresponsible and uncaring. In a field of performance like mentalism, it seems like caring about other people would be a natural thing. But apparently not for everyone.

It is important to find safe ways to perform and entertain right now. People need our spirits lifted. But we need that to happen in a way that we can be fairly sure we wonít get that phone call saying we have been exposed to a virus that is killing a thousand people every day in our country. How to balance the safety with the entertainment is outside my area of expertise. But it has to be possible to perform in a safer way than Slim describes.

Patrick
Message: Posted by: Nash (Sep 17, 2020 11:14PM)
Thanks for the write up. The change is real and man its gonna be a strange time leading well into next year.
Wonderful if it'll be a good idea to carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer for whenever we hand out props to people, let them know whoever touched your stuff prior had clean hands.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 18, 2020 08:08AM)
It is interesting that though this is a global problem, the way we perceive it personally is different. It is almost affected by two main factors. Your own personal worldview, and how this is impacting you personally in your daily life.

If you live in the heart of New York (Where I did when this started.) the view you have of this is pretty dire. If you live in an area less affected by this, then often it has you wondering why all the fuss? I mean a HUGE portion of deaths have happened in 3 very populace states. One has to wonder if New York would have shut down if those 3 states were Montana, Colorado and Wyoming? I offer no conspiracy theories, and am accusing neither side of being wrong or stupid. I live right now smack dab in the middle of an area that has just not been hit hard at all by this. I have seen both sides of the equation.

The shame of this ENTIRE thing is it became a political issue, and how stupid is that? I blame each side for this. Each desperately wanting to assign blame or take credit instead of worrying about what is best for the world. They all sicken me deeply.

In some places the ridged restrictions will be in place for a long time, possibly forever. In others they are not that restrictive and are going to pass quite quickly. The "new normal" here is not so bad. Not NEARLY as bad as other places.

I personally have no opinion about this whole disease. I am not an expert and have no qualifications and won't take the time to research. I do have opinions about those in power who lie to me. Gotta say, not a fan of it. I take no side on what "should" happen, just follow the guidelines of what "does" happen. Somehow this is easier for me to get through life not knowing everything.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Sep 19, 2020 05:48AM)
I wonder how history will judge this time.

As brought out by the comments on this thread, there is a stunning difference of opinion about the Covid issue. I have done about 20 shows since the beginning of July and I too have seen these differences. Some places take the temperature of every audience member demand they wear a mask during my entire show. While other places there is not a mask or precaution to be seen.

We live in a difficult and divisive time, but there were much more difficult times than this.

For example, there was a time that roughly half of the population thought slavery was a Ďrightí and worth fighting for and dying for. Now, all these years later, the overwhelming majority of Americans agree that slavery is abhorrent.

Time changes things.

The only thing that will render the final verdict on this issue...is time.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 19, 2020 10:20PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2020, David Thiel wrote:

I have my own opinions about Covid...but I went WAY out of my way to make clear that my post wasn't about those opinions. Why? Because a discussion of Covid (the disease) has no place in a mentalism site. I absolutely did not want this to happen.

[/quote]

Why did you choose the thread title "Covidiocy"?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Sep 22, 2020 03:51PM)
I'm hearing about a "second wave" hitting Europe. Not sure if the USA will get it or how we will react but certainly something to be aware of.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Sep 23, 2020 10:19PM)
I just did another one. No one died. No one was sick. BTW.. I wasn't sick at the last one either. To say I was contagious would have been and currently is a lie. I'm innocent until proven guilty. HCQWORKS. Hypochondria is a mental disorder. :sun:
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Sep 24, 2020 02:49PM)
[quote]On Sep 23, 2020, Slim King wrote:
I just did another one. No one died. No one was sick. BTW.. I wasn't sick at the last one either. To say I was contagious would have been and currently is a lie. I'm innocent until proven guilty. HCQWORKS. Hypochondria is a mental disorder. :sun: [/quote]

In my small town this is the attitude that a local church took. 4 of their members died and many more hospitalized.
Message: Posted by: David Todd (Sep 24, 2020 06:07PM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2020, thomasR wrote:

In my small town this is the attitude that a local church took. 4 of their members died and many more hospitalized. [/quote]

Interesting. What town and what church was that ?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 24, 2020 08:48PM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Sep 23, 2020, Slim King wrote:
I just did another one. No one died. No one was sick. BTW.. I wasn't sick at the last one either. To say I was contagious would have been and currently is a lie. I'm innocent until proven guilty. HCQWORKS. Hypochondria is a mental disorder. :sun: [/quote]

In my small town this is the attitude that a local church took. 4 of their members died and many more hospitalized. [/quote]

And how old were they and what secondary conditions did they have?

But common sense aside let me ask a serious question. There are those who feel that a .026 death rate overall is a risk they are willing to take to have a job and not starve to death.

So what is the end game? Zero new cases? Zero deaths? What if no vaccine comes? Stay scared and do as you are told?

At what point does the rights of the many outweigh the fears of the few? Since it is such a low death rate and all why do the 99% plus not affected suffer for those who do?

I am not an infectious diseases expert by any means. I am not saying anything about what needs to be done or undone. I am asking relevant questions is all. Questions that a lot of people are asking.

If masks work why not issue them to prisoners instead of letting them go? If masks work why does everyone have to wear them? Why put older teachers at risk if kids can give them the virus?

There are a lot of questions out there on each side of the deal. One side at least is telling outright lies and hopefully they are held to account. If tens of thousands died needlessly this is worse than incompetent it is a war crime.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 24, 2020 09:50PM)
No man is an island. This is a contagious disease. All those "willing to take a risk" aren't doing so only at their own risk. And the vulnerable are thereby involuntarily being exposed. Those "willing to take a risk" are taking choice away from the already vulnerable. Double whammy and insult to injury.

It's not so much about fear as it is about love and serious consideration and regard for the vulnerable.

The vulnerable are not disposable, collateral damage. They are precious entities, beloved family members.

Also, no one really knows for sure, either, just who might have an unexpected severe outcome. We are all vulnerable to the effects of this virus. I mentioned on another thread, Marshall Rosenberg's reference to a human evolutionary snag. And I think it's been blatantly illuminated by the way we've seen this situation unfold so far.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 24, 2020 10:37PM)
"When we are stressed or emotional, we are more likely to activate our bodyís 'fight, flight, freeze' mechanisms. This affects how we communicate and how our communication is received."

"Becoming defensive makes people not only less willing to listen, but less able to take in information, and or to appraise it accurately."

Https://theconversation.com/how-to-talk-to-someone-who-doesnt-wear-a-mask-and-actually-change-their-mind-143995
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Sep 25, 2020 01:37AM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

There are those who feel that a .026 death rate overall is a risk they are willing to take to have a job and not starve to death.

So what is the end game? Zero new cases? Zero deaths? [/quote]

Yes, zero.

This is a direct quote from New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy 2 days ago,

[i]ďEven as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that. Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero.Ē[/i]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 25, 2020 10:10AM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
No man is an island. This is a contagious disease. All those "willing to take a risk" aren't doing so only at their own risk. And the vulnerable are thereby involuntarily being exposed. Those "willing to take a risk" are taking choice away from the already vulnerable. Double whammy and insult to injury.

It's not so much about fear as it is about love and serious consideration and regard for the vulnerable.

The vulnerable are not disposable, collateral damage. They are precious entities, beloved family members.

Also, no one really knows for sure, either, just who might have an unexpected severe outcome. We are all vulnerable to the effects of this virus. I mentioned on another thread, Marshall Rosenberg's reference to a human evolutionary snag. And I think it's been blatantly illuminated by the way we've seen this situation unfold so far. [/quote]

Oh it is about exactly that. We trade off many things out of fear. You can pretend it is love all you want but make no mistake it is fear and fear mongering.

So again what is the end game?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 25, 2020 10:12AM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Sep 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

There are those who feel that a .026 death rate overall is a risk they are willing to take to have a job and not starve to death.

So what is the end game? Zero new cases? Zero deaths? [/quote]

Yes, zero.

This is a direct quote from New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy 2 days ago,

[i]ďEven as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that. Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero.Ē[/i] [/quote]

And doesn't this make you think? An unattainable goal with him grabbing power. Hmm.

And so we see the real problem. This is a very scary situation and very real. During which we have people elected to see to our best interest who only seen worried about their best interest.

Again I say this is a REAL serious problem. Global in scale and needs to be addressed. It is deadly and it is scary without doubt in my mind. The reaction from our leaders of any stripe has been mind bogglingly incompetent and political.
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Sep 25, 2020 11:10AM)
My home country eventually achieved 0 cases, along with the state I am currently living in (6 deaths total, thank to leadership taking it seriously in January).

Iím sure plenty of people in positions of power are using it (and literally anything else they can) as a power grab. At the same time though, eradicating it isnít some impossible feat, especially if itís taken seriously early on.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 25, 2020 11:15AM)
[quote]On Sep 24, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

At what point does the rights of the many outweigh the fears of the few? [/quote]

[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

And so we see the real problem. This is a very scary situation and very real.

[/quote]

And so we see who is afraid. Are you one of the few who has fear, then, or one of the many who has rights? And are you one of the fear mongered or one of the fear mongerers?
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 25, 2020 11:46AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:


I blame each side for this. Each desperately wanting to assign blame or
[/quote]

There is only ONE "side".
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Sep 25, 2020 12:41PM)
Okay...since it appears that this thread is NOT going to be about how COVID has changed the fabric of mentalism...let's chat.

I have a good friend, an accomplished performer, who hasn't done a show since the spring. He's been trying to talk himself into going virtual but he (not unlike myself) can't quite convince himself that it's a viable option. He has enough savings to last him another eight months if he's careful.

Another friend, who has specialized in cruise ship shows for the past 12 years has moved out of his condo -- sold it for pennies on the dollar in a killer market -- and is actually living with his parents.

I spent an hour on the phone with another friend who is only now starting to freak out because he's been living on his savings since March and they are depleting with nothing significant to replace them.

And these are just entertainers. What about the hotel industry? The travel industry? How about the restaurants? The many businesses that were already borderline before Covid happened that are not reopening? How about the backbone of the economy: small business...that has been completely decimated by an economy that changed one day without warning? How about ALL the people who work(ed) for those businesses...and the families THEY support? Remember those kindly credit card companies that gave people six months to defer their payments? Well those same credit card companies are now sending notices that those deferrals are ending...which leaves many people now needing to deal with SIX MONTHS of credit card debt with no money coming it. Can you IMAGINE what their world looks like???

Still there are people bleating from their soapboxes that we all have to suck it up for the greater good. They aren't thinking six months -- a year -- into the future. What will the world look like then...not just for entertainers but the whole crippled economy? People who don't have money can't spend it. When people don't spend, businesses do not survive. When businesses don't survive...well...I would hope even the most determined of the sheeple can still muster the basic math skills necessary to work out that equation.

What about alcohol abuse since the "lockdown?" Domestic abuse? Child abuse? Sexual abuse? Suicide? Foreclosures?

People are not thinking clearly. There is a documented case during the Spanish Flu epidemic: a man gets on a streetcar in relative health. By the time it gets to his stop, he's dead. THAT is a dangerous epidemic, folks.

Compare the death statistics from Covid (and I DO mean COVID -- not people who died while they had Covid...or people who died within a six block radius of someone who HAD Covid) to heart disease fatalities...how about cancer? And the whole world is shutting down because of THIS? REALLY???

THINK about it! Set aside what self serving politicians and doctors say. TRY to ignore the opinions Facebook, YouTube etc. are trying to cram into your mind. Think for yourself. IS there risk enough to put our whole society on the chopping block?

I suspect it is already too late. So have a nice ride, guys. Continue to ridicule those people who are trying to warn you...tear up the guys who are trying to make a living in an increasingly hostile climate. Let's look back on those 'ideals' a year from now, shall we? And, as we look up from our societal ruins, the soap box dwellers will be able to congratulate each other on how many of them may be financially destitute...but at least they didn't get the flu. WHEW! That was close, huh?

The inmates are running the world asylum. Sheeple and the intellectually feeble are enabling them, coddling them and defending them. Stop it.

I have no interest in arguing on this thread or any other so I won't. It serves no purpose. You can't argue with crazy. So line up those critics and fire away. Have fun. Grandstand for each other. Knock yourselves out. Send out an alert to all the self-congratulating Thought Police.

I'm done with this.

David
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 25, 2020 12:48PM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
I have a good friend, an accomplished performer, who hasn't done a show since the spring. He's been trying to talk himself into going virtual but he (not unlike myself) can't quite convince himself that it's a viable option. He has enough savings to last him another eight months if he's careful.

Another friend, who has specialized in cruise ship shows for the past 12 years has moved out of his condo -- sold it for pennies on the dollar in a killer market -- and is actually living with his parents.

I spent an hour on the phone with another friend who is only now starting to freak out because he's been living on his savings since March and they are depleting with nothing significant to replace them. [/quote]

My gosh, my advice is stop talking to these friends. They're so depressing.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Sep 25, 2020 01:37PM)
I suspect it depends on how a person defines the word ďfriend.Ē
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 25, 2020 02:51PM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, David Thiel wrote: let's chat...
I'm done with this.

David [/quote]


Some people have known for awhile that those who don't have money can't spend it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 25, 2020 04:57PM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
[quote]On Sep 18, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:


I blame each side for this. Each desperately wanting to assign blame or
[/quote]

There is only ONE "side". [/quote]
Very naive.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 25, 2020 05:01PM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
Okay...since it appears that this thread is NOT going to be about how COVID has changed the fabric of mentalism...let's chat.

I have a good friend, an accomplished performer, who hasn't done a show since the spring. He's been trying to talk himself into going virtual but he (not unlike myself) can't quite convince himself that it's a viable option. He has enough savings to last him another eight months if he's careful.

Another friend, who has specialized in cruise ship shows for the past 12 years has moved out of his condo -- sold it for pennies on the dollar in a killer market -- and is actually living with his parents.

I spent an hour on the phone with another friend who is only now starting to freak out because he's been living on his savings since March and they are depleting with nothing significant to replace them.

And these are just entertainers. What about the hotel industry? The travel industry? How about the restaurants? The many businesses that were already borderline before Covid happened that are not reopening? How about the backbone of the economy: small business...that has been completely decimated by an economy that changed one day without warning? How about ALL the people who work(ed) for those businesses...and the families THEY support? Remember those kindly credit card companies that gave people six months to defer their payments? Well those same credit card companies are now sending notices that those deferrals are ending...which leaves many people now needing to deal with SIX MONTHS of credit card debt with no money coming it. Can you IMAGINE what their world looks like???

Still there are people bleating from their soapboxes that we all have to suck it up for the greater good. They aren't thinking six months -- a year -- into the future. What will the world look like then...not just for entertainers but the whole crippled economy? People who don't have money can't spend it. When people don't spend, businesses do not survive. When businesses don't survive...well...I would hope even the most determined of the sheeple can still muster the basic math skills necessary to work out that equation.

What about alcohol abuse since the "lockdown?" Domestic abuse? Child abuse? Sexual abuse? Suicide? Foreclosures?

People are not thinking clearly. There is a documented case during the Spanish Flu epidemic: a man gets on a streetcar in relative health. By the time it gets to his stop, he's dead. THAT is a dangerous epidemic, folks.

Compare the death statistics from Covid (and I DO mean COVID -- not people who died while they had Covid...or people who died within a six block radius of someone who HAD Covid) to heart disease fatalities...how about cancer? And the whole world is shutting down because of THIS? REALLY???

THINK about it! Set aside what self serving politicians and doctors say. TRY to ignore the opinions Facebook, YouTube etc. are trying to cram into your mind. Think for yourself. IS there risk enough to put our whole society on the chopping block?

I suspect it is already too late. So have a nice ride, guys. Continue to ridicule those people who are trying to warn you...tear up the guys who are trying to make a living in an increasingly hostile climate. Let's look back on those 'ideals' a year from now, shall we? And, as we look up from our societal ruins, the soap box dwellers will be able to congratulate each other on how many of them may be financially destitute...but at least they didn't get the flu. WHEW! That was close, huh?

The inmates are running the world asylum. Sheeple and the intellectually feeble are enabling them, coddling them and defending them. Stop it.

I have no interest in arguing on this thread or any other so I won't. It serves no purpose. You can't argue with crazy. So line up those critics and fire away. Have fun. Grandstand for each other. Knock yourselves out. Send out an alert to all the self-congratulating Thought Police.

I'm done with this.

David [/quote]

All good points.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 25, 2020 10:17PM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Very naive. [/quote]

Why do you say that?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 26, 2020 02:01AM)
To believe there are not agendas at play when politicians are quoted as saying "never let a crisis go to waste" is naive.

There is way more than one side.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 26, 2020 11:06AM)
I was referring to the big picture.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 26, 2020 12:04PM)
I wasn't because it is meaningless. Those in power are the ones in control. The liars and thieves. They all have personal agendas as well as party agendas. And yes this is worldwide.

So again to claim there is only one side is very naive.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Sep 26, 2020 01:20PM)
Slim King must be happy. Florida is opening up completely. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 26, 2020 04:54PM)
[quote]On Sep 26, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
It is meaningful, Danny.

I don't expect you to acknowledge it though, because, although you claim not to know everything, you seem to have a need to invalidate pretty well anything I have to say and exclude me and others you seem to hold contempt for from the big picture. Destructive and gaslighting.

If anyone still wonders why so few women frequent this place, perhaps consider the exclusive nature and lack of empathy illustrated by so many.

Calling someone naive is nothing more than a predictable manipulative tactic to ostracize. It's an easy, lazy way to play magician's choice, and you're an absolute master, Danny. Congratulations. :applause: [/quote]

Sorry but hogwash.

Frame it however you want personally but the absolute fact that we must live with each and every day is that there is why more than one side to this and every debate.

So you tell me what the benefit is in trying to pretend somehow that it is not true?

Frame it as if I'm such a meanie go ahead. Chimpanzees that it is a slight against women, very which it is not. It is a simple acknowledgement of the reality of the world. By definition to try to deny it is quite naive.
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Sep 27, 2020 03:41AM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
People are not thinking clearly. There is a documented case during the Spanish Flu epidemic: a man gets on a streetcar in relative health. By the time it gets to his stop, he's dead. THAT is a dangerous epidemic, folks. [/quote]

Sort of like this? Just one I random heard about that the time, so I donít know how many others.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8179213/amp/Man-infected-coronavirus-dies-spitting-rail-passenger-Thailand.html

Also we have no idea if that person during the Spanish Flu actually died FROM THE SPANISH FLU, or if it was actually from a pre-existing condition like obesity or asthma.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Sep 27, 2020 07:34AM)
[quote]On Sep 26, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
It is meaningful, Danny.

I don't expect you to acknowledge it though, because, although you claim not to know everything, you seem to have a need to invalidate pretty well anything I have to say and exclude me and others you seem to hold contempt for from the big picture. Destructive and gaslighting.

If anyone still wonders why so few women frequent this place, perhaps consider the exclusive nature and lack of empathy illustrated by so many.

Calling someone naive is nothing more than a predictable manipulative tactic to ostracize. It's an easy, lazy way to play magician's choice, and you're an absolute master, Danny. Congratulations. :applause: [/quote]

With respect, I don't understand what being a women has do with it. Danny is an equal opportunity lack of empathizer and ostracizer. LOL
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 27, 2020 10:31AM)
[quote]On Sep 26, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Sep 26, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
It is meaningful, Danny.

I don't expect you to acknowledge it though, because, although you claim not to know everything, you seem to have a need to invalidate pretty well anything I have to say and exclude me and others you seem to hold contempt for from the big picture. Destructive and gaslighting.

If anyone still wonders why so few women frequent this place, perhaps consider the exclusive nature and lack of empathy illustrated by so many.

Calling someone naive is nothing more than a predictable manipulative tactic to ostracize. It's an easy, lazy way to play magician's choice, and you're an absolute master, Danny. Congratulations. :applause: [/quote]

Sorry but hogwash.

Frame it however you want personally but the absolute fact that we must live with each and every day is that there is why more than one side to this and every debate.

So you tell me what the benefit is in trying to pretend somehow that it is not true?

Frame it as if I'm such a meanie go ahead. That it is a slight against women, very which it is not. It is a simple acknowledgement of the reality of the world. By definition to try to deny it is quite naive. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 27, 2020 10:37AM)
[quote]On Sep 27, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Sep 26, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
It is meaningful, Danny.

I don't expect you to acknowledge it though, because, although you claim not to know everything, you seem to have a need to invalidate pretty well anything I have to say and exclude me and others you seem to hold contempt for from the big picture. Destructive and gaslighting.

If anyone still wonders why so few women frequent this place, perhaps consider the exclusive nature and lack of empathy illustrated by so many.

Calling someone naive is nothing more than a predictable manipulative tactic to ostracize. It's an easy, lazy way to play magician's choice, and you're an absolute master, Danny. Congratulations. :applause: [/quote]

With respect, I don't understand what being a women has do with it. Danny is an equal opportunity lack of empathizer and ostracizer. LOL [/quote]

Oh no Ken. It is 2020 so to stiffle debate you use this tactic. Make absurdly false accusations in the hope others will be afraid and stop. Crying victim and hoping others run to your defense (Which we saw happen here.) is now how it works.

Merit based discussion is not allowed. Using facts and proof means nothing. It is all about how you feel. Try to keep up
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Sep 27, 2020 02:26PM)
[quote]On Sep 27, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
" magicalaurie wrote:
It is meaningful, Danny.

I don't expect you to acknowledge it though, because, although you claim not to know everything, you seem to have a need to invalidate pretty well anything I have to say and exclude me and others you seem to hold contempt for from the big picture. "

With respect, I don't understand what being a women has do with it. Danny is an equal opportunity lack of empathizer and ostracizer. LOL [/quote]

I acknowledged that Danny does this to others in the quoted comment. What you don't understand is the effects it has on women, Ken. There's a lot of information about this around, if you're interested.

Here's an article, just as an example:

https://ideas.ted.com/one-invisible-barrier-holding-back-women-at-work-the-conformity-bind/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 27, 2020 09:52PM)
And what you don't realize is the affect it has on people who are constantly and demonstrably falsely accused of such things. The affect it has on society in general when merit based discussion is replaced with how it makes you feel instead.

I thought it was all about equality wasn't it? Why would one thing affect women differently than it would men? Equality is equality isn't it? Pick a horse and ride it please.
Message: Posted by: Michael L (Oct 1, 2020 10:16AM)
[quote]On Sep 25, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
Compare the death statistics from Covid (and I DO mean COVID -- not people who died while they had Covid...or people who died within a six block radius of someone who HAD Covid) to heart disease fatalities...how about cancer? And the whole world is shutting down because of THIS? REALLY???
[/quote]

Yes.
Heart Disease isn't contagious. Cancer isn't contagious. Both of those are extremely serious, but their burden on society and on the healthcare system is more or less predictable.
The problem with COVID isn't just deaths from COVID. It's what happens if the disease runs completely unchecked, because then it places a burden on the healthcare system which it cannot bear. So the death total becomes worse than the death total from COVID. It becomes the deaths from people having heart attacks who could have survived but they were unable to get the medical care they needed. Same for people who suddenly discover they are diabetic, or people in car accidents, or people with appendicitis. If the healthcare system is completely saturated, then people start dying from otherwise survivable issues. It's a snowball effect, and that only takes into consideration death as a consequence rather than the multitude of long-term effects we are seeing in survivors.

It doesn't have to be a complete lockdown. Masks, social distancing, people acting intelligently - all these things can help contain the spread of the disease and allow society to function. It will absolutely hurt society, and the economy, but there's a middle ground between a year-long lockdown and refusing any and all measures.
I definitely sympathize with performers who are struggling, especially as you said with the stress of being shut in (loneliness, alcoholism, etc.). I'm new here and I don't know anybody personally, but please feel free to reach out if you need someone to listen.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 1, 2020 03:14PM)
Tuberculosis seems pretty contagious and deadly and do we hide from it?

Again only asking.
Message: Posted by: Michael L (Oct 1, 2020 09:58PM)
[quote]On Oct 1, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Tuberculosis seems pretty contagious and deadly and do we hide from it?

Again only asking. [/quote]

Yes?
Unlike COVID, you can't catch TB from someone who is infected but isn't presenting symptoms. I personally would not hang out with someone who was coughing up blood with active TB, but you do you.
If you're in the States you almost certainly know someone who is infected with TB, but they don't know it because they're one of the 90-95% of infections which never become active. Even if you know 100 people with inactive TB your odds of catching it are effectively 0%.

Not to mention TB can be treated, and we have a vaccine which reduces the risk of infection and greatly reduces the chance of an infection becoming an active case. We're hiding from it, but we've been working at it for decades.
TB is projected to infect roughly 1% of the world population annually, COVID has already infected more than 2% of the US population in 6 months, and that's with some preventive measures in place. 90-95% of TB cases never become active, 20% of COVID cases require hospitalization.
TB is scary, as far as diseases go, but it's got nothing on COVID.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 1, 2020 10:23PM)
So people without symptoms spread covid and 20% have symptoms?

How serious are those symptoms exactly?
Message: Posted by: Michael L (Oct 2, 2020 12:49AM)
Yes, COVID seems to be able to be spread by people who have been infected but not yet developed symptoms.

I didn't say 20% have symptoms, though. 20% of COVID infections require hospitalization. I don't know exactly what symptoms and treatments that represents, but I assume it's anywhere from fever medication and an IV drip to control dehydration, up to induced coma and a ventilator.
And just to correct that number now, it should be that "up to 20%" require hospitalization. It varies by age group, with older people hospitalized at a much higher rate than the young, but your overall average as per the CDC reports is about 8-9% across all age groups. The other 90ish% include people who have contracted the virus and developed no symptoms at all, or developed symptoms mild enough to not require medical intervention beyond what they can manage at home with over-the-counter medication and rest.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 2, 2020 07:20AM)
How do you account for those who have the virus with no symptoms and are not tested?
Message: Posted by: Michael L (Oct 2, 2020 08:49AM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
How do you account for those who have the virus with no symptoms and are not tested? [/quote]

You can account for that in projections, but aside from that all we have to go with are the numbers we know.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 2, 2020 11:39AM)
So this can be woefully uninformed or incredibly accurate and anything in between?
Message: Posted by: Michael L (Oct 3, 2020 01:17AM)
The only real facts I had to provide were the data from the CDC with regards to infections and hospitalizations, so that's what I stuck with.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 10, 2020 01:53AM)
[quote]On Sep 26, 2020, imgic wrote:
Slim King must be happy. Florida is opening up completely. Will be interesting to see how that plays out. [/quote]
Florida is Kicking @ss!!!!The night clubs are opening up and Thousands of musicians are making money again and paying their bills!!! The Theme Parks won't be doing so well since other places are still closed and tourism is directly in the sights of the economy destroyers. Thousands of new tests are being done revealing thousands who didn't even know they had the virus. The death rate is rock bottom compared to the main attack. The majority of deaths in Florida had about 3 Pre-existing conditions. Less than 6% of the fatalities were by Covid alone. The schools are still messed up. Brothers and sisters who LIVE TOGETHER can't even sit in the same bus seat or eat at the same lunch table. The kids themselves see the lack of logic expressed by their own education system. My 11 year old son got a respiratory infection from wearing the mask and had to be taken to Emergency care. I say INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY just like the Constitution teaches!!! HCQ and Zinc!!!! Florida is leading the way just like Sweden!!! Just a little late... :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 10, 2020 08:46AM)
Here is the part that makes me nervous. I say this with no side in mind.

IF it turns out we live in a world where the "experts" just got it WILDLY wrong, not intentionally but just crazy wrong, then what? Does ANYONE on ANY side of this argument REALLY believe they are going to come out and say "hey man we BLEW it sorry"? I mean what we know NOW about this is so vastly different from what they THOUGHT THEY KNEW THEN it is incredible. So many here in the Cafť' believe things from the first weeks of this nightmare and parrot them as gospel.

What do we do as a people, as a country, or as a WORLD for that matter if this turns out to be the case on ANY level? Then if you like add in your own fears about the other side and agendas and it really is unsettling.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 10, 2020 01:13PM)
Broadway just announced it is closed until May of 2021. Thatís 41 broadway theaters.
The podcasts and interviews Iíve heard from Vegas performers sound like they keep hearing back and forth everyday.
Penn said that they are looking at Caesarís forum and other large venues.

Disneyland is still closed, and Disney parks and resorts as a whole just laid off 28,000 in the USA including hundreds of imagineers.

But then towns like Branson, Pigeon Forge, and the state of Florida are opening up as if there is nothing to worry about. I saw the Dutton theatre in Branson closed because a performer tested positive.

I certainly donít know what the right answer is, it seems like itís a 50 state free for all with everyone deciding for themeselves what is safe and whatís not.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 10, 2020 01:16PM)
Which is how the Constitution is designed. Imagine that.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 10, 2020 01:35PM)
True. And I give you lots of credit danny... you didnít stay in New Jersey.

It amazes me how some people would rather stay where they are and complain about their current situation, rather than looking at a map (literally or figuratively) and moving.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 10, 2020 02:14PM)
To be fair I moved back to where I had a house and by coincidence it was where they have figured out how to do entertainment safe. Not so much a plan, but happy to be part of it.

But yes staying wasn't an option.

The issue as I see it is largely political. Yes this is dangerous. How much so is debatable. But hard to ignore the deaths!

Has mitigation helped? Tough to say because you have to weigh economic impact against human life and how can that even work? What a horrible equation that would be.

Is heard immunity the only way through? Nobody knows and nobody wants to try. Can't say I blame them.

There is political power grabbing going on. Nuff said.

I'll say that states that have little impact by this don't necessarily live under that same fear as the huge hot spots do. No joke there are places that just can't imagine what the fuss is all about. So moving forward is not a clear path.

This is what can cause a HUGE amount of the problems! Individual perception is just skewed. There is no one answer to the problem. Each local municipality knows what they need better than a federal leviathan.

Notice how I never denied this is a real problem or said anything about not being safe? So please no nasty comments about being a denier or what not.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Oct 13, 2020 03:50AM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2020, thomasR wrote:
True. And I give you lots of credit danny... you didnít stay in New Jersey.

It amazes me how some people would rather stay where they are and complain about their current situation, rather than looking at a map (literally or figuratively) and moving. [/quote]

Hind sight is 20/20. This New Jersian thought this was going to last a month, then 2 months, then till the end of the summer, etc. etc. I don't think I would have picked up and moved with hind sight, but I must admit I would have jumped on the virtual bandwagon. I still have not lifted a finger to do that.

As far as I can tell New Jersey has had one death in the past week. And still we are limited to 25% capacity in restaurants--and it is getting cold outside making outside dining uncomfortable. The Governor just raised all tolls the gas tax to begin to pay for all of his social programs he created to protect us and save lives.

I always say someone has to stay behind in New Jersey to turn the lights out.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 13, 2020 02:35PM)
OK let's be REALLY clear. I moved there for work. When Broadway shut down there was no more work.

I did not have some brilliant foresight or premonition. I knew it was the epicenter of the Zombie Apocalypse and the dog and I got tired of prowling the badlands. Clearly it was not getting any better any time soon. So I left.

I had no roots. I had nothing holding me there but work and that stopped.

Anyone can say anything they want but at the front of this thing it was *** scary in that part of our world. If you were not there you would not understand. Forget now and what we learned those first few weeks were really spooky. Forget political affiliation or if you hate or love the president. None of that mattered. In the zone it was outright scary. I think this is something to keep in mind.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 18, 2020 09:35PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2020, Jed Maxwell wrote:
Slim King, your admission of running non-socially distanced photoshoots, whilst not wearing a mask, with dozens of non-masked customers beggars belief. You gloat that you made a little more than a days wage at Universal from an hours work. This pursuit of your self-interest during a global pandemic is the prime example of "covidiocy". Your profession draws people together so you can draw a wage. To heck with the consequences, because you finagled some tax-free chump change. You endanger the image of all performers. Does your employer know?

It seems David Thiel agrees with you, which is a shame as I have agreed with him on many points. Not this.

I'm not arguing with any of you. I have lambasted others that have turned this forum into an echo-chamber for the socially maladjusted and internet addicted. I just making a statement because this is my last post. I have been here a year, and quickly realized that there are other ways I can learn mentalism without having to swath through the writings of the lonely and the kooks. Goodbye, and good day to you. [/quote]
Well, it's been over a Month since the gig and NO ONE GOT SICK ... The HYPOCHONDRIA has got to stop!!! I'm not sick and neither is anyone on the gig... The attendees are on a mailing list and NO ONE GOT SICK!!!! Hypochondria is a Mental Disorder and it even debilitates many brilliant minds.... According to the CDC about 10,000 in the USA died from Covid alone. Three times as many die in car wrecks....THINK!!!! The Pandemic is over. The death rate is now less than the flu... :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Oct 19, 2020 02:14PM)
Shouldn't you compare the stats to car crashes where they had no secondary condition though? They may have been less alert if they already had a health condition, and if they were obese or had asthma or whatever, they may have been about to die any day now, so the car crash bringing it forward by a day or two doesn't really matter (if we are treating them the same as some say we should treat Covid cases).

While it isn't perfect because the lockdown should have reduced a number of other deaths like flu deaths, and may have increased some others, the excess mortality rate is probably the most reliable data to go on, as while the cause of someone's death may be misrepresented, faking the number of deaths themselves in a Western country would be a lot more difficult.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
https://theconversation.com/279-700-extra-deaths-in-the-us-so-far-in-this-pandemic-year-147887
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 19, 2020 07:01PM)
Here is a simple fact. This is something. It is not a car crash.

Now does the response warrant what was done and is being done? This is the real discussion.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 20, 2020 04:09PM)
CDC says that only around 10,000 Americans died from Covid alone. About 35,000 died from car crashes. Are you still driving? CDC says one in a million children die from Covid ... It's more dangerous to drive them to school than it is being at school... The Pandemic is OVER... The death rate has been lowered by 90%.... :sun: Besides ... Studies from 2005 and 2010 prove that HCQ and Zinc stop the virus from replicating...
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Oct 20, 2020 05:36PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Slim King wrote:
CDC says that only around 10,000 Americans died from Covid alone. About 35,000 died from car crashes.[/quote]

As Danny said, the car crash comparison isn't the best to use, but if we are going to use it, you have to use the same conditions.
How many of those died from car crashes alone and didn't have a secondary condition? If they had been healthier, they may have survived.

It's sort of like saying the bullet catch is 100% safe because no magician has ever died from it in the history of the world (who was missing their left leg and singing a Britney Spears song at the time).
Unlike the buried alive trick, which countless people have died of!

If you want to add conditions to the bullet catch, you have to have the same conditons to buried alive. Likewise if you want to use the car crash example, you need to either compare over 200,000 dead to 35,000 dead, OR, 10,000 dead to what would suddenly become a very low number.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 20, 2020 07:58PM)
The point Slim is making, and it isn't really a bad one, is that new information is coming out every minute. The "hide in your bunker" mentality is not a good one to keep fostering. A fear mongering mentality is not a good one to keep fostering.

Is there SOMETHING? Absolutely yes. But what is the net affect? Here is an interesting take on that. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-failed-experiment-of-covid-lockdowns-11599000890
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Oct 20, 2020 08:40PM)
I get that, but I don't think before having that conversation until whatever people are basing their thinking on is properly considered.

Honestly, I'm still in shock at how the US handled things, and is continuing to do so.
In my state, both people and the leadership took it seriously back in January, and people did their part, not out of fear, but in the same way that you put your seatbelt on. We eradicated the virus, and I haven't worn a mask in months, nor do I see anyone else doing so, because it was dealt with straight away. Despite that, the state is still mourning/showing respect for the 6 people who died (taking population into account, that would be less than 400 for the entire USA).

The US seems to have gone crazy with a mix of fear and a fear of fearmongering, but not really putting in proper effort to really deal with the virus, leading to a situation where everyone has to keep on dealing with it badly with no end in sight. It seems like the maximum work for the smallest reward. On top of that, after almost 3,000 people died on 9/11, the world mourned with the US. Now over 200,000 people have died needlessly, and a lot of the country acts like they are a drop in the bucket.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 20, 2020 09:08PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The point Slim is making, and it isn't really a bad one, is that new information is coming out every minute. The "hide in your bunker" mentality is not a good one to keep fostering. A fear mongering mentality is not a good one to keep fostering.

Is there SOMETHING? Absolutely yes. But what is the net affect? Here is an interesting take on that. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-failed-experiment-of-covid-lockdowns-11599000890 [/quote]

Thereís surely a middle ground between what you call ďhide in your bunkerĒ and Slimís take though.

By the way... I donít call respecting local stay at home orders to be ďhide in your bunkerĒ - I call them respecting government officials and healthcare workers.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 20, 2020 10:06PM)
At first there was little choice. We knew so little.

But do either of you accept the fact that this was and may still be a political power grab?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 20, 2020 10:13PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
At first there was little choice. We knew so little.

But do either of you accept the fact that this was and may still be a political power grab? [/quote]

What do you define as ďthisĒ ?
Message: Posted by: imgic (Oct 21, 2020 12:28AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2020, imgic wrote:

CDC says that only around 10,000 Americans died from Covid alone. About 35,000 died from car crashes. Are you still driving? CDC says one in a million children die from Covid ... It's more dangerous to drive them to school than it is being at school... The Pandemic is OVER... The death rate has been lowered by 90%.... :sun: Besides ... Studies from 2005 and 2010 prove that HCQ and Zinc stop the virus from replicating... [/quote]

Thank you for proving my point...

CDC site says something different than only 10,000 deaths: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

And how do studies from 2005 and 2010 show effectiveness of a drug against something not seen until 2019 (The 19 on COVID-19 stands for 2019). Current studies show HCQ not effective https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 21, 2020 07:14AM)
David's initial description was a fair and thoughtful analysis of working under tough conditions in my opinion. Thanks for that, David.

I am not going to discuss the opinions which followed--I've done that too much in other threads, LOL!!

But there are some matters of fact that need to be corrected, particularly this one:

[quote]Florida is leading the way just like Sweden!!![/quote]

Whatever the merits of Slim's posts may be, he picked the absolute worst example to bolster his case.

A reality check:

Deaths due to the virus, followed by deaths per Million:

Sweden: 5922..... 586/M
Denmark: 688..... 123/M
Finland:: 355......... 65/M
Norway: 279.......... 52/M

https://coronavirus.app/map?mode=dead


That is, [i]the number of deaths in Sweden is roughly 10 times the number of deaths in neighboring countries[/i] with similar cultural practices. If anything, Sweden is the example to illustrate the exact opposite of Slim's view. Sure, we must all make up our own minds, but actually look at the statistics so we can make up our minds intelligently.

You can also use the same link to understand exactly how Florida is leading the way--that would be in the top 10 of states with regard to number of deaths.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 21, 2020 09:22AM)
I just performed in another gig at a wedding for several hundred people. No one except the wait staff wore masks. The band didn't, the guests didn't, and the bride and groom didn't. The WHO says lockdowns don't work!!!! If you lived in a plastic bubble for the next 20 years you'd probably die right away when you came out because your resistance and immune system would be so inadequate!!!! I say Zinc and any Ionophore and live life to it's fullest. Works for me and my family!!!! :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 21, 2020 11:00AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
At first there was little choice. We knew so little.

But do either of you accept the fact that this was and may still be a political power grab? [/quote]

What do you define as ďthisĒ ? [/quote]

Reactions to covid protection.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 21, 2020 12:13PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
At first there was little choice. We knew so little.

But do either of you accept the fact that this was and may still be a political power grab? [/quote]

What do you define as ďthisĒ ? [/quote]

Reactions to covid protection. [/quote]

Yes, Reactions in the USA are very political on both sides. Which is a shame.

Belgium, Netherlands, and Ireland are both entering into more restrictions this week. My friend in Belgium is sad the restrictions are back but doesnít feel like itís a political issue and questions why the USA acts like it is. I donít have an answer for him.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 21, 2020 12:24PM)
Perhaps because they are in a different country with different governmental systems in place.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 21, 2020 09:42PM)
I'm looking at scientific evidence that the death rate (As distorted as many say) has dropped to a fraction of what it was during the initial outbreak. Some here seem to be claiming it's as bad or even worse ... If this is true I'd love to see proof. Otherwise I'm believing the Scientists ...... My favorite statistician is Tony Heller on Youtube. Dozens of Drs. were on the Supreme court steps on Friday declaring the Pandemic is OVER!!!!! Did you see that? :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knBC0KPcTPw&t=111s
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Oct 22, 2020 12:25AM)
I didn't see the posts saying it's as bad or worse than before, but I don't think that's true, for both good reasons and no so good reasons.

The good reason is that as more is learned about the virus, hospitals have become far better at treating it. Unfortunately, that won't be the case anymore if the hospitals get too overrun, and they currently have the most cases since August https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1318685548492587008?s=09

The bad reason is that with any cases, the deaths will lag behind greatly (someone might catch it on day 1, show symptoms on day 8, need to go to the hospital on day 16 and die a month or two after that. Then that death needs to be added to the figures).

And there are probably countless other factors at play, such as early on when no one knew anything about it, people would be more likely to think it was just a flu, continue to push themselves, and suddenly drop dead in the street, not realizing their body was incredibly oxygen-starved. Someone resting early on could easily make the difference between living and dying (as could secondary conditions, such as obesity or having the normal flu at the same time as covid).

While an incredible amount has been learned in a short time, there is still a lot to find out, such as the rate of serious long term health issues for those who survive, and under what conditions people can catch it more than once.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 22, 2020 01:21AM)
Death is a lagging indicator. This is true.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 22, 2020 08:37AM)
Slim wrote:

[quote]I'm looking at scientific evidence that the death rate [/quote]

Let's be a little more clear: "the death rate" is an ambiguous term. It could refer to the number of deaths compared to number of reported cases of infection; or it could mean the number of deaths per unit of population. The only relevant statistic is the latter: how many bodies per million are in excess this year, as opposed to last year.

Imagine a jar with 10,000 jelly beans. Some are red, they represent cancer deaths; some are blue, they represent heart attacks; some are green, they represent supposed COVID deaths. Now suppose that every death marked as COVID was really due to a heart attack. In other words, all those green jelly beans should really be blue.

EVEN IF THAT WERE TRUE THERE WOULD BE THE SAME NUMBER OF JELLY BEANS IN THE JAR. But that is NOT THE CASE. What we have is the equivalent of an overflowing jelly bean jar--many many more jelly beans, that is, excess deaths, all of a sudden this year. Where did they all come from???

Even if you allow 10% of the excess to be explained by the lockdown (although how many prisoners die because of lockdown?) it still doesn't explain that other 90%

No, the death rate from COVID has not gone down significantly in recent weeks. No, the number of COVID deaths in NJ (as one poster said) was not down to one last week (in fact it was around 45 deaths for the week).

For gosh sakes, we all have opinions but at least get the basic facts right.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 22, 2020 12:48PM)
Covid has sped up the deaths of many I think is your point?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 22, 2020 01:32PM)
Well the eventual death rate is 100%. That's the downside of being human. But yes, if we look at a given time period, say a year, there are simply more deaths happening in 2020 than in 2019 from all causes. So what's the reason? Sunspots? Chance? Bad haircuts? There are more jelly beans in the jar this year than one would guess based on prior years. That's the essential fact.

"Speeding up the deaths" is one way of putting it, and because of that, it's also bunching them up into a smaller time frame.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 22, 2020 06:20PM)
The average Covid death age ... 78 ... The average life span of Americans ... 78 ... Interesting isn't it. About 3 million die in the USA every year. A true test is to compare the actual number of deaths from 2019 to 2020 or some version of annual death. At first the fear mongers said 13 million would die from this ... Then 2.2 million citizens would die .. The actual number is 220K so far... That's ONE TENTH of the projected death. Did you know that the "Stimulus" package was introduce to congress in January of 2019. FAUCI predicted that TRUMP would have a surprise Pandemic back in 2017... I've seen the video. How did Fauci know if this wasn't planned?... Is he Psychic? Is congress Psychic?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 22, 2020 10:58PM)
[quote] A true test is to compare the actual number of deaths from 2019 to 2020 or some version of annual death.[/quote]

Exactly. And it's exactly what you *didn't* do in any post that you've made on this forum. Instead, you claimed that Sweden which has 10 times the number of per capita deaths compared to its neighbors was the model to follow. Instead, you claimed the virus was disappearing when on average 100 people a day in Florida and 1000 people a day in the US die from it. Those numbers have held realtively steady since June.

The number of excess deaths for the year almost exactly corresponds with the number of estimated deaths due to COVID, that is, 200,000. By the end of the year, at the present rate of about 1000 excess deaths a day, the figure will be close to 300,000 deaths.

That evidently seems to be fine with you as long as it doesn't affect you personally. It's one way of responding to the facts, I suppose.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 22, 2020 11:03PM)
[quote]FAUCI predicted that TRUMP would have a surprise Pandemic back in 2017... I've seen the video. How did Fauci know if this wasn't planned?[/quote]

It's a deep mystery, isn't it? When I was a kid my mother told me if I went out without my winter jacket on, I'd catch a cold. And I did. She must have planned it, right?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2020 10:48AM)
I don't think that the comparison is happening in a vacuum. Meaning that there are other factors as to why people die. To say that all the 200,000 are because of covid is a logical leap and skips a couple steps. Maybe it is true. But the road to proving it is much longer than the short cut you are taking.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 23, 2020 11:56AM)
I think that lots of people are dying and that the numbers are as accurate as other numbers. (Not perfect, but the best that our worldwide doctors and systems can produce).

Now what should we as America do about it? Probably about what we are doing. If some think we should be doing more and some think we should be doing less thatís probably where we need to be.

Danny is performing safely and following local guidelines. That seems reasonable.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2020 12:14PM)
We just may need to learn to live with this. It is possible it may not go away and that life, no matter how much one may not want it to will end and that sucks.

The new normal may be viruses we can't defend against. Anyone ever think of that?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 23, 2020 09:20PM)
If thatís the case there will be less people willing to travel and most likely less ability to travel internationally.

Iím not really worried about what our government should or shouldnít do, the majority of the leaders of the free world have all decided to require masks, socially distance, limited capacity gatherings, etc. Thatís reality. Learning to work and live in the current reality is my focus. Ignoring it or crying about it doesnít do much to further us.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 24, 2020 01:06AM)
We have had a Therapy for 15 years .. HCQ and Zinc ... It has saved thousands but it costs less than $20 so Big Pharma wants nothing to do with it even though the WHO and CDC paid for the SARS research. Thousand of Drs. have saved thousands of Americans with a simple cocktail of an Ionophore and Zinc ... The Zelenko Protocol works..... It cured my in-laws and it's kept my entire family safe. :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Oct 24, 2020 04:13AM)
Fauci has recently said we will be dealing with this (wearing masks, social distancing, etc.) until late 2021 or early 2022! If this is true is it time to find a new career? Seriously. I can't think of a single profession that has been hurt worse than entertainers, especially the ones who thrive on live performances. Yes, there are other things we can do (virtual shows, etc.) but nothing that comes close to matching our previous income.

It will be very interesting to see what happens with the death rate from this latest spike in cases. The increase in number of cases is not too surprising considering the availability of testing, but the death rate should be dropping dramatically. Trouble is it hard to find this data. The media is fixated on TOTAL number of cases and TOTAL deaths making it seem like its the end of the world. In my opinion, the paranoia has never been worse than it is today.

I consider myself to be an optimist, but 2020 making me question that life long habit.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2020 07:26AM)
Consider just how many things Fauchi has fourteen absolutely wrong.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 24, 2020 12:17PM)
Hypochondria is a Mental Illness....Mentalists should see this clearly. It is more dangerous to drive your car now than any danger from Covid.....But the Fear Mongers persist!!!! :xmas:
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Oct 25, 2020 02:55AM)
Please keep your fear mongering about car crashes to yourself. probably 90% of those so called "car crash victims" had other underlying conditions, and 100% of them were already going to die (eventually).
Don't you find it rather suspicious the Government keeps bringing in all kinds of driving laws, requiring people take driving tests and pay for drivers licences, and yet each year they still tell the sheeple that people are "dying" in car crashes?
How fast are people in car crashes going? let's say 100mph in an extreme example. Did you know a human tooth is so strong and durable that it can literally last for hundreds of years, and they are going through an impact every time we bite our food? Teeth are just another bone of our body, yet people try and tell us that even a 100mph impact is enough to damage those bones to the point of death?!?! Also to begin with, they had cars with no seat belts, and now we do have seatbelts to (control us) save us from crashes, and yet they still say that crash deaths are happening?!?!

Finally, have you ever actually talked to someone who died in a car crash? I've spoken to plenty of people who were in a crash and survived, but not one person who said they died in a crash. Please stop spreading the mental illness of car crashes and just let people live freely, without "seatbelts", "driving lessons", having a car that's "roadworthy", or any of the other stupidity the Government wants the sheeple to believe.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2020 06:02AM)
The car crash analogy is not the best. Ask in the end we are so scared of ac thing that is than 1% die from.

I just wish we could move forward without the political agendas.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 25, 2020 11:06AM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
The car crash analogy is not the best. Ask in the end we are so scared of ac thing that is than 1% die from.

I just wish we could move forward without the political agendas. [/quote]

Just today more countries in Europe announced curfews and more restrictions. The US political agendas are what is keeping your show open, so you may want to rethink that.

For better or worse, the US is being pretty ďdo what you wantĒ about this.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2020 06:19PM)
Yea no nothing to think about. Many might argue those agendas are keeping things closed a actually.

I defy you to post ac single thing from a single government in America that says "do what you want". Pure fear mongering and propaganda. That is all that is.

Which is THE EXACT I'm speaking of
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 25, 2020 09:16PM)
Youíre opinions are cute.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2020 10:00AM)
Please post for me a single government official who even remotely said "do what you want".

I'm not giving an opinion. I'm asking you to back up your claim. So naturally you resort to acting like that because you can't.

New York is making great strides in how do deal with this. The lifestyle they have had to dictate response. Using SO MUCH public transportation, living much closer than the rest of the country and so on dictates their necessity to respond how they did.

Chicago not as much but still follow the same sort of idea.

Smaller places like Branson with no public transportation, houses often not within sight of neighbors can have a bit of a different response and still be quite safe. So each place is making decisions seems to be a good move.

I have literally lived in all these situations. But instead of wanting to talk like an adult you use hyperbole and then sarcasm. Is prefer to discuss but since you don't really want to maybe let those of us who do go ahead and discuss?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 28, 2020 09:19AM)
I was just at one of the biggest Jam Sessions in my Life and I've been to hundreds. Not a single person was wearing a mask. They did sanitize the microphones but most jam sessions do that anyway. It's always been a good idea.... Other than that ... NO SOCIAL DISTANCING!!! In fact many people were shaking hands and hugging each other!!! It was back to normal and people were LOVING IT!!!!!!!!!!! Follow the money .... The Billionaires all made more BILLIONS!!!!! You and I took it in the shorts. These lockdowns were a SIN!!! Sweden has shown the way ... A lower death rate than the USA!!!! They didn't lock down... :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Oct 28, 2020 11:24AM)
Apples and oranges... Sweden had a MUCH higher death rate per capita than the US with their attempt at "Herd Immunity"... on the other hand, the US has a much higher rate of infection per capita and thus more deaths by far. You just get out there and keep playing with no mitigation. Those choices will solve themselves.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2020 12:26PM)
Yea but Ray the fact is that 99 plus percent survive this.

Again my question that everyone avoids is what happens if there is no vaccine? What happens if we just have to live with it?

How long can we be afraid? I mean in that case life has to go on doesn't it?
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Oct 29, 2020 04:06AM)
Good point Danny.

And IF and WHEN the vaccine arrives how effective will it be? Flu vaccines are estimated to be 40% to 60% effective. So, if the covid-19 vaccine is 50% effective and we cut the mortality rate from 1% to .5% is that enough? Is that acceptable? There are many leaders with the mind-set that they will not fully open businesses and lift restrictions until there are ZERO deaths!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 29, 2020 06:54AM)
[quote]there are many leaders with the mind-set that they will not fully open businesses and lift restrictions until there are ZERO deaths![/quote]

I think you'd have a hard time actually naming anyone with any power who has said that.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Oct 29, 2020 08:20AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]there are many leaders with the mind-set that they will not fully open businesses and lift restrictions until there are ZERO deaths![/quote]

I think you'd have a hard time actually naming anyone with any power who has said that. [/quote]

This quote is taken directly from NJ Governor Murphy's Facebook page on September 23rd.

"Even as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that. Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero."

It been over a month since he said this. And despite the fact the death rate remains low, some days it has been zero, he has not relaxed any restrictions at all. Indoor dining remains at 25% capacity.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 29, 2020 08:42AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]there are many leaders with the mind-set that they will not fully open businesses and lift restrictions until there are ZERO deaths![/quote]

I think you'd have a hard time actually naming anyone with any power who has said that. [/quote]

This quote is taken directly from NJ Governor Murphy's Facebook page on September 23rd.

"Even as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that. Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero."

It been over a month since he said this. And despite the fact the death rate remains low, some days it has been zero, he has not relaxed any restrictions at all. Indoor dining remains at 25% capacity. [/quote]

Wasn't hard at all to find a person with any power who said that was it? Murphy is a fantastic example of government overreach. He has also extended the state of emergency.

Now the thing that is difficult is those who want to spout talking points from the first few weeks of the pandemic, those who want to use it as a political tool, and those who are just afraid.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Oct 29, 2020 09:20AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea but Ray the fact is that 99 plus percent survive this.

Again my question that everyone avoids is what happens if there is no vaccine? What happens if we just have to live with it?

How long can we be afraid? I mean in that case life has to go on doesn't it? [/quote]

From what I've studied, yes most survive it although many retain lingering respiratory complications. Your question is simple. With no mitigating medical solutions... what happens? A lot more people die. The same as in any pandemic/plague. Life does go on for some, the rest die. 1% OF 300 million is 3 million dead in the US. No big deal if it's not you or anyone you know I suppose. To quote someone else. "It is what it is."
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 29, 2020 09:33AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, Ken Northridge wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]there are many leaders with the mind-set that they will not fully open businesses and lift restrictions until there are ZERO deaths![/quote]

I think you'd have a hard time actually naming anyone with any power who has said that. [/quote]

This quote is taken directly from NJ Governor Murphy's Facebook page on September 23rd.

"Even as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that. Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero."

It been over a month since he said this. And despite the fact the death rate remains low, some days it has been zero, he has not relaxed any restrictions at all. Indoor dining remains at 25% capacity. [/quote]

Don't you wish that the death rate were zero? What you claimed was that leaders said *they would not open up fully* until the death rate was zero. That quote does not say that.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 29, 2020 09:52AM)
BTW, there is no FB posting for September 23rd for Governor Murphy. I did find a Twitter post for that day. Here it is *In Full* the same words you quoted:

"Even as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that.

Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero."

Nothing about refusing to open until the death rate is zero on that day on Twitter or FB.

Look, I am not a professional, so I don't have any standing to say what those who are should do for their livelihood. All I am saying is there is a lot of misinformation, evidently some of it deliberate, and you should make your decisions based on the actual facts, not made-up ones.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 29, 2020 10:25AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea but Ray the fact is that 99 plus percent survive this.

Again my question that everyone avoids is what happens if there is no vaccine? What happens if we just have to live with it?

How long can we be afraid? I mean in that case life has to go on doesn't it? [/quote]

From what I've studied, yes most survive it although many retain lingering respiratory complications. Your question is simple. With no mitigating medical solutions... what happens? A lot more people die. The same as in any pandemic/plague. Life does go on for some, the rest die. 1% OF 300 million is 3 million dead in the US. No big deal if it's not you or anyone you know I suppose. To quote someone else. "It is what it is." [/quote]

But yes 1% of those who catch it, not population. Just to clarify.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Oct 29, 2020 11:22AM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, landmark wrote:
Don't you wish that the death rate were zero? What you claimed was that leaders said *they would not open up fully* until the death rate was zero. That quote does not say that. [/quote]

Murphy was getting a lot of pressure to reopen, and this is his typical response.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 29, 2020 12:24PM)
[quote]On Oct 29, 2020, landmark wrote:
BTW, there is no FB posting for September 23rd for Governor Murphy. I did find a Twitter post for that day. Here it is *In Full* the same words you quoted:

"Even as the numbers of deaths we report every day continue to be low, we cannot take any solace in that.

Our goal must be to get them to zero. Not three or five, or seven like today. Zero."

Nothing about refusing to open until the death rate is zero on that day on Twitter or FB.

Look, I am not a professional, so I don't have any standing to say what those who are should do for their livelihood. All I am saying is there is a lot of misinformation, evidently some of it deliberate, and you should make your decisions based on the actual facts, not made-up ones. [/quote]

The point is to weigh the cost of not being open and Draconian measures against what happens if opening. Because lives are destroyed with the way things are and this is easy to see.

So where is the balance point?

This is why my question of what if there is no vaccine is SO important.

Also my more difficult question is all you are ever doing is complaining about corruption in government and money and blah blah ad nauseum. But here you trust 100% of everything you are spoon fed by the very corrupt system. Seems an odd turn and frankly it seems as if it is opportunity to further your worldview more than anything.

So again let me ask a strange question. We have seen the experts (And I believe they are by the way.) be wildly wrong about many things from the start. They shut down the world and caused amazing chaos in doing so. (In not claiming they should or should not have. Let's say they do so based on best information and intentions at the time for argument sake.)

What if they were just wrong? What if the impact of the cure was worse than the disease and it turns out it was going to be this no matter what we did? Do you believe for a SECOND that they will come out and admit it?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 29, 2020 01:28PM)
Danny, I'm not going to get into the politics of it here; as you know I'm not shy about voicing my opinions, but in this particular forum, as I say, I respect that the people who post here are pros. So everyone here has to make up their own minds how to handle it. What I am about here, because I love both magic and magicians, is to correct misinformation about some basic facts.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 29, 2020 01:35PM)
That has become the problem. Fun the experts what is considered a fact changes pretty regularly.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 30, 2020 12:57AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
Apples and oranges... Sweden had a MUCH higher death rate per capita than the US with their attempt at "Herd Immunity"... on the other hand, the US has a much higher rate of infection per capita and thus more deaths by far. You just get out there and keep playing with no mitigation. Those choices will solve themselves. [/quote]
Not true ... Sweden is LOWER!!!!!! Their economy is kicking @ss ...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2020 09:40AM)
We have received some pretty good economic news today as well.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 31, 2020 01:47PM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We have received some pretty good economic news today as well. [/quote]
Over 30%!!!!! Must be some kind of Economic Record!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 31, 2020 01:59PM)
I don't know what it means or represents. But it seems good.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 2, 2020 06:55AM)
Seems 94% less deaths from Flu and Heart Attack... Wonder why? :coolspot: :coolspot: :coolspot:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 2, 2020 07:36AM)
Slim, do you have a citation for that? A 94% decrease in heart attacks in the country over some substantial period of time this year would certainly be huge groundbreaking news. Please provide a link.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 2, 2020 07:56AM)
[quote]On Oct 31, 2020, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We have received some pretty good economic news today as well. [/quote]
Over 30%!!!!! Must be some kind of Economic Record!!!!! [/quote]

Did your income rise 30%? Did you get an increase of 30% in your healthcare? Do you have 30% more food on your table this quarter than last year at this time?

A rise in GDP is useless for measuring how the average person is doing. It says nothing about how the wealth is distributed, it says nothing about externalities added in pollution, insurance and medical costs to consumers, and most tellingly, it amazingly adds the cost of debt penalties to the figure as an increase in financial services.

"And debt-financed home-price inflation has become a major factor squeezing family budgets in todayís world.
When they fall behind in their payments and are subject to late fees and higher interest rates, these payments are treated as an addition to GDP (ďfinancial servicesĒ), as if the economy is getting richer. So when the specific components of what seems to be empirical statistical evidence of affluence are analyzed, they consist not of real product and prosperity but transfer payments from the economy at large to the Finance, Insurance and Real Estate (FIRE) sector."

https://michael-hudson.com/2019/10/asset-price-inflation-and-rent-seeking/

Yep, as people suffer more economic pain, the GDP rises.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2020 09:16AM)
You are fond of always trying to point out misery. Fact is things have been getting better and then crash. Things are indeed coming back.

No I'm sorry but you have zero leg to stand on claiming it is useless as a measure. It is but exact by any means but it is indeed an indicator.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 2, 2020 09:30AM)
What I'm pointing out is that the number stated is a number that means absolutely nothing with regard to whether things are getting better for people. It has a different purpose and meaning.

If you are going to make a case, use real evidence and numbers that are relevant to the case you are trying to make. Unemployment statistics and mean median income might make a better case that things are improving for people, but I haven't looked into those numbers.

Still waiting for the 94% decrease in heart attack deaths citation from Slim.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2020 10:10AM)
You simply can not say a GDP number is meaningless. You can say others are a better representation or some such way to move the goalposts. But you lose all credibility with meaningless sorry.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 2, 2020 02:36PM)
Look at the CDC's own numbers. You never read any links I post so look it up ...... The CDC has counted them all as Covid deaths. Tony Heller has done a very nice job exposing the numbers. The CDC themselves says that for kids Covid is 5 to 10 times safer than the flu.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 2, 2020 04:48PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2020, Slim King wrote:
Look at the CDC's own numbers. You never read any links I post so look it up ...... The CDC has counted them all as Covid deaths. [/quote]

I read all your links, Slim. In seven pages in this thread you've posted exactly one: a YouTube video. So please provide the link that says heart attack deaths have decreased 94%.


For those who may not want to live an evidence-free life, the number of deaths due to Cardiovascular disease from 2/1/20 to 10/17/20 was about 600,000 (480,000 from heart disease and 110,000 from stroke):

So 600,000 deaths over 8 months is about 900,000 deaths for 12 months of 2020.

https://usafacts.org/articles/top-causes-death-united-states-heart-disease-cancer-and-covid-19/



Now let's look at 2017 for number of Cardiovascular deaths: 860,000.

[b]In other words the number of Cardiovascular deaths reported in 2017 is almost exactly the same as that reported in 2020. No 94% decrease.[/b]


https://www.heart.org/-/media/files/about-us/statistics/2020-heart-disease-and-stroke-ucm_505473.pdf?la=en



But Slim, feel free to show me the figures where it says that the number of heart attacks has gone down by 94%.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 2, 2020 06:23PM)
Funny... but you have no grasp of the concept here at all do you?????? I pointed you to Tony Heller. He's a genius and he has provided all the charts you'd need .... However you will repeat the same Big Pharma liars who gave you the $800 Epipen and the $1500 Insulin..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knBC0KPcTPw
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2020 06:31PM)
Yea the Epipen.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 2, 2020 06:36PM)
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKBk_Se-I8E&t=221s
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2020 06:44PM)
Epipen suddenly HUGE expensive! What a load of corruption that was.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 2, 2020 06:49PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Epipen suddenly HUGE expensive! What a load of corruption that was. [/quote]
Big Pharma is NOT YOUR FRIEND ... They lie....
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 2, 2020 06:56PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2020, Slim King wrote:
Funny... but you have no grasp of the concept here at all do you?????? I pointed you to Tony Heller. He's a genius and he has provided all the charts you'd need .... However you will repeat the same Big Pharma liars who gave you the $800 Epipen and the $1500 Insulin..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knBC0KPcTPw [/quote]

I told you I watched the Tony Heller video. And I watched the other one.

The one where he shows a graph that compares Sweden to Belgium, but does not compare Sweden to its three nearest neighbors: Denmark, Finland and Norway. If he had been intellectually honest, that's what he would have done.

Why didn't he--because it would have shown what I've explained twice Slim: Sweden had from 5-10 times the number of deaths per capita of its nearest neighbors whose culture, economy and climate are most similar to it. Of course the other three countries didn't go Sweden's route, so that's why he had to *censor* that information. How convenient to leave it out.

But now you know better, so you can include that info about the other three countries next time you talk about Sweden.

Still waiting for the link to evidence of that 94% decrease in heart attack deaths.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 2, 2020 08:57PM)
Oh there is a LOT of "censoring" going on in this pandemic my friend.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 3, 2020 08:35AM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 2020, Slim King wrote:
Funny... but you have no grasp of the concept here at all do you?????? I pointed you to Tony Heller. He's a genius and he has provided all the charts you'd need .... However you will repeat the same Big Pharma liars who gave you the $800 Epipen and the $1500 Insulin..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knBC0KPcTPw [/quote]

I told you I watched the Tony Heller video. And I watched the other one.

The one where he shows a graph that compares Sweden to Belgium, but does not compare Sweden to its three nearest neighbors: Denmark, Finland and Norway. If he had been intellectually honest, that's what he would have done.

Why didn't he--because it would have shown what I've explained twice Slim: Sweden had from 5-10 times the number of deaths per capita of its nearest neighbors whose culture, economy and climate are most similar to it. Of course the other three countries didn't go Sweden's route, so that's why he had to *censor* that information. How convenient to leave it out.

But now you know better, so you can include that info about the other three countries next time you talk about Sweden.

Still waiting for the link to evidence of that 94% decrease in heart attack deaths. [/quote]
Prove it!!!!! And quit misquoting me. It betrays your dishonesty.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 3, 2020 09:27AM)
What is that you would like me to prove? That I watched a 3 minute video and a 5 minute video? LOL.

Yes, against my better judgement I wasted 8 minutes on videos that deliberately *censored* data that didn't fit your agenda.

No links to the heart attack data yet?
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 4, 2020 10:54AM)
You've fabricated a statement I didn't make .. That's pretty deceptive even for a failed magician. :dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 4, 2020 11:31AM)
I was going easy on you, Slim.

[quote]Seems 94% less deaths from Flu and Heart Attack... Wonder why?[/quote]

You are the same Slim King who wrote this, yes? It's not a case of mistaken identity is it?

If there is no 94% decrease in heart attacks, then there can only be a 94% decrease in influenza and heart attacks together if there is even MORE than a 94% decrease in influenza.

So now you have a choice. Either provide evidence of a 94% decrease in heart attacks or MORE than a 94% decrease in influenza.

I'll wait for evidence of either one.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 4, 2020 02:03PM)
Stop with your lies!!!!!So you admit to twisting the truth,,, That's a good start!!!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 4, 2020 02:13PM)
Slim, when you post proof of either a 94% decrease in heart attacks or a MORE than 94% decrease in influenza, give me a call.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Nov 4, 2020 02:25PM)
Why would I call you ... You twist the truth.... Nasty business that!!!!
Message: Posted by: imgic (Nov 13, 2020 09:39PM)
Positive cases rising. Hospitals getting overwhelmed. This week the campus I work had a charge nurse pass from covid, 10 others out this week. We've had to re-open the wing we'd outfitted for covid patients (we'd retrofited rooms with negative pressure so virus doesn't spread.) The general opinion is that spikes are occurring about 14 days after Halloween when many disregarded masks and social distancing to celebrate.

Please...reconsider Thanksgiving plans if you're thinking about having family and guests travel.

Please wear masks.

Please social distance and wash hands.

Please be safe and be well.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Nov 28, 2020 04:56PM)
In Canada there are over 37 million people. Since the Covid pandemic began a total of 11,504 people have died (allegedly) from the disease.

Do some basic long division to arrive at a percentage. When 11,504 is divided by 37,000,000 the result is .00030. Move the decimal over two positions (because that's how you get a percentage) and you learn that -- when peering past the hysteria and misinformation...the media lies etc. that the FATALITY rate of COVID is .03%.

POINT ZERO THREE percent. From the BEGINNING of this whole mess.

That's not even HALF of ONE percentage point. That's a NUMBER. A hard number. Flatten WHAT curve exactly???

For this we've decimated society, destroyed economies...spent billions of dollars (in the case of the Americans: TRILLIONS of dollars)...ripped the heart out of convention, travel, hospitality and entertainment businesses...bankrupted thousands of companies and millions of individuals. We have trapped people in their homes and sicced storm troopers on those who refuse to accept that all this is justified by a POINT ZERO THREE PERCENT DEATH RATE.

I fully expect the thought Nazis and the self righteous minds to pop along and do their best to tell me how wrong I am...how my cavalier viewpoint is potentially deadly for those around me. And I will ignore them because the number we all need to keep in mind is this: POINT ZERO THREE.

By the way: our family does fully comply with mask wearing and ALL legal mandates including the one telling us to stay home. Why? Because it's the law and we respect other people and the feelings they have. I think the point for useful debate on this issue is long gone at any rate.

David
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Nov 29, 2020 06:17AM)
And the Governors/Legislators are patting themselves on the back because the death rate is only .03%. Untold and unimagined lives were saved because of their leadership. 3% to 5% of the worlds population died from the Spanish Flu, 50% from the Black Plague. But we are so fortunate to live in an era of strong, brave leadership to save us from ourselves.

(I'm not sure my sarcasm came through here, but it was meant to be sarcastic. :) )
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 29, 2020 07:19AM)
[quote]By the way: our family does fully comply with mask wearing and ALL legal mandates including the one telling us to stay home. Why? Because it's the law and we respect other people and the feelings they have.[/quote]

Thank you, David.



[quote]3% to 5% of the worlds population died from the Spanish Flu, 50% from the Black Plague.[/quote]

Spanish Flu:

"A 2007 analysis of medical journals from the period of the pandemic found that the viral infection was no more aggressive than previous influenza strains.[9][10] Instead, malnourishment, overcrowded medical camps and hospitals, and poor hygiene, all exacerbated by the recent war, promoted bacterial superinfection. This superinfection killed most of the victims, typically after a somewhat prolonged death bed."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Arguing that because many people died 650 years ago and 100 years ago in devastating outbreaks we should then scoff at the number of current deaths seems like a weak argument to me.

More math:

3000/300,000,000 (roughly the US population on 9/11/2001) =.00001= .001% or one one-thousandth of one percent of the population.

and

US Death numbers from influenza and pneumonia for 2017: 55,672
US Death numbers from influenza and pneumonia for 2018: 59,120
US Death numbers from Covid for 2020: 275,000

Over a 450% increase from previous years.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Nov 29, 2020 07:47AM)
[quote]On Nov 29, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]By the way: our family does fully comply with mask wearing and ALL legal mandates including the one telling us to stay home. Why? Because it's the law and we respect other people and the feelings they have.[/quote]

Thank you, David.



[quote]3% to 5% of the worlds population died from the Spanish Flu, 50% from the Black Plague.[/quote]

Spanish Flu:

"A 2007 analysis of medical journals from the period of the pandemic found that the viral infection was no more aggressive than previous influenza strains.[9][10] Instead, malnourishment, overcrowded medical camps and hospitals, and poor hygiene, all exacerbated by the recent war, promoted bacterial superinfection. This superinfection killed most of the victims, typically after a somewhat prolonged death bed."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Arguing that because many people died 650 years ago and 100 years ago in devastating outbreaks we should then scoff at the number of current deaths seems like a weak argument to me.

More math:

3000/300,000,000 (roughly the US population on 9/11/2001) =.00001= .001% or one one-thousandth of one percent of the population.

and

US Death numbers from influenza and pneumonia for 2017: 55,672
US Death numbers from influenza and pneumonia for 2018: 59,120
US Death numbers from Covid for 2020: 275,000

Over a 450% increase from previous years.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm [/quote]
You can compare covid deaths to flu deaths, but that really does not work. Now currently they is only 22,000 flu related deaths in 2019 - 2020.

Looks like a decrease to me.

Based on how you want to present it you could argue that we really whipped the flu this year, but everyone should realize that without context it doesn't mean anything.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Nov 29, 2020 08:16AM)
With respect, Landmark, you are missing the point...as in POINT zero three.

Each death is tragic. Yes. Of course. But the question we need to be asking ourselves -- or SHOULD have been asking ourselves months ago -- is "Does the death rate thus far justify the economic Armageddon that we have caused?" We have not yet started to feel the effects of our way-out-of-proportion response to what is essentially the flu.

The other day our premier -- the Canadian equivalent of one of your state governors -- acknowledged that the economic impact of the tougher Covid guidelines he was enacting was going to bankrupt businesses. People use the term 'businesses' as an antiseptic way of saying 'the livelihood of families.' What he meant was that businesses people have spent their lives building...and in some cases generations...ARE going under. Savings are gone. They cannot sustain themselves any longer. Then he said that fighting the spread of COVID aka 'the flu' was more important to the long term health of the province. He added -- with a suitably mournful expression -- that we are 'all in this together.'

Really?

Is HE facing losing his house...are HIS savings exhausted...?

Alcohol...suicide...drug abuse...all skyrocketing because of people being trapped at home. Not working. Not producing. Not spending...nothing to do but brood. You DO get that society is imploding, right?

POINT ZERO THREE percent.

It's insane.

Businesses are closing. People are not working. The government is spending. There's going to only a fractional representation of a tax base. It cannot be sustained. (More math.) The workforce has been dismantled. We are cut off from each other. We live in fear and wear masks. No visits with family or friends. Just a succession of grey days while we flatten the curve of something that is already pretty much flat. Does one have to be a conspiracy theorist to wonder what's REALLY happening?

Nah.The notion that things don't add up is absurd...paranoid...right? We trust the government. The media never lies. Big business ultimately has our best interest at heart. Google and FaceBook are only looking out for us by censoring what we say in this previously open public forum. The vaccine -- developed at a faster rate than ANY vaccine ever (one that the world is aching to take) -- will save us...because Bill Gates said so. Here in Canada the military is in charge of dispensing it. (And may I add how grateful I am that the military is now a part of the equation? I feel so much safer now.)

But it is also now a belief system -- which, as mentalists know -- is what happens when people quit evaluating what IS and suspend critical thought -- because their minds are made up. When I say it's too late, I mean it's too late. The train is only gathering speed. We can't stop it and all the people who had the will to try have been silenced, ridiculed and attacked. We're done. You can't question wearing masks because in some perverse extension of blackwhite logic the very question is unpatriotic and even raising the notion is proof that the person poses a literal health threat to his world. Raise the issue on any mainstream social media platform and just see what happens. I double dog dare you.

Thank goodness that we've stopped that flu in its tracks and fought an epidemic where the grim death toll of point zero three percent has been slowed.

Whew. That was a close one, huh?

David
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 29, 2020 08:33AM)
David thanks for your respectful response.

It's hard to talk about these matters here as they inevitably include political aspects, the expression of which are limited here.

But let me outline a general response:
There is NO DOUBT that many small businesses have gone under and workers jobs have been cut. This is awful. But those things COULD HAVE BEEN and SHOULD HAVE BEEN mitigated vastly with the correct political response. A sane political response would have included massive help for small businesses and a UBI for workers and others affected people. Instead, here in the US, trillions were given away with few restrictions to huge corporations and almost nothing to the average family. Billionaires have been doing splendidly--there's no economic downturn for them.

And here in the US, unlike in Canada, there's no Universal medical care either. Imagine. The richest country in the world and they did basically nothing for the working person.

It wouldn't have been impossible or even hard. European countries did much better in terms of economic impact because those societies were more prepared to handle the economic hit. They weren't cowed, as we are here, by the cries of "But that's socialism!..."

Respectfully, there would be many fewer arguments of the sort we are having on this board, had the society been more oriented to taking care of ordinary people instead of a small wealthy elite.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 29, 2020 10:55AM)
Maybe this who want what you call a "sane political response" are using the pandemic, which is real, to help further their worldview huh?
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Nov 29, 2020 06:07PM)
[quote]On Nov 29, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
...nothing to do but brood.

David [/quote]

Really? I think what's insane is what humanity's obsession with the dollar has done to life. Low death rate, in your view, but for Siegfried, that included Roy. You respect the feelings of others? I think your comments throughout indicate otherwise.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Nov 29, 2020 06:16PM)
Sigh...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 29, 2020 06:39PM)
[quote]On Nov 29, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
[quote]On Nov 29, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
...nothing to do but brood.

David [/quote]

Really? I think what's insane is what humanity's obsession with the dollar has done to life. Low death rate, in your view, but for Siegfried, that included Roy. You respect the feelings of others? I think your comments throughout indicate otherwise. [/quote]

I think the overall problem with society today is how are we supposed to manifest the respect for the feelings of others?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 29, 2020 07:24PM)
Obviously folks have really strong feelings about this. But let's not forget about David's excellent original post on page 1 at the very top.
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Nov 30, 2020 06:32AM)
[quote]On Nov 28, 2020, David Thiel wrote:
In Canada ... a total of 11,504 people have died... POINT ZERO THREE percent. From the BEGINNING of this whole mess.[/quote]

How many more thousand are likely to die before the end of the whole mess?

I personally took this seriously very early on, as did the state I live in and the people in it. Our death rate is somewhere around 1 in 1 million currently, the virus is completely eradicated, and almost everything is fully open without a mask in sight.

In most countries, there was no need for the economy is be as damaged as it has been (which is apparently the important part), simply by dealing with it early and efficiently, rather than having half-hearted restrictions forever. Nor was there any need for those many thousands of people to die slow painful deaths, along with those who are still to come.
Unfortunately, both the Governments and the citizens in a great deal of the world have been determined to make some of the worst possible decisions. For any Western country, things didn't need to be like this, but a great many people worked together to arrange it. Even without a vaccine, Covid is as temporary as we want it to be, so long as everyone is willing to put in the effort.

Fortunately, due to our incredible advancements in medicine, the death rate is far, far lower than it would be otherwise. If there is ever a far more serious pandemic though, I'm sure all the countries that did a terrible, terrible job in almost every way would suddenly do a good job....or everyone would die while complaining about the economy.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 30, 2020 01:10PM)
You claim they did a terrible job. Are you an infections disease expert?
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Nov 30, 2020 01:47PM)
Considering the US had one of the top infectious disease experts and a huge percentage of the country decided not to listen to him, does it really matter? Regardless, if you have two dentists, and one successfully helps 100 patients, while the other hits all 100 in the head with a sledgehammer and kills them, how many years of dentistry do you believe someone needs before they can say the second may not be as good to visit?
Before you reply though, as we are having this discussion on the internet, I hope you have at least a few qualifications in computer engineering? If not, everything you say is void.

Comparing outcomes to the USA, I prefer not having any Covid, not having to worry about Covid restrictions and having almost no deaths, versus Covid being out of control and growing, countless restrictions, many of which are more for show than actually helping because they are decided from an economic standpoint rather than a medical one, and having a sea of corpses which is still increasing as I type this. On top of that, from the discussions here and media, a lot of people in the US seemed to be living in fear while also fearing fear? It didn't really happen here, and it sounds very exhausting.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 30, 2020 02:25PM)
That is pretty long way too get to no isn't it?

The silly computer analogy and dentist nonsense are just that. But if it makes you feel better cool.

Could there be reasons that the New York, New Jersey area were hit SO HARD that do not involve incompetent handling?

Take out some of the Eest Coast from the equation and turn down the media hype and the numbers are just not so shocking are they? Still horrible yes but much different.

Take out the agenda in your statements, which is loud and clear and just discuss. Should EVERYONE have to follow protocol for areas that are decimated? Things are just not as clearly black and white as you want to make them.

Can we look back and find things that should have been done differently in 20/20 hindsight? Sure. But unfortunately decisions are made in real time. I think it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
Message: Posted by: Blaze Magic (Nov 30, 2020 03:18PM)
I take it from your lack of evidence you have no qualifications in computer engineering? If we were talking in person that would be fine, but as it is how can you possibly make a statement on the internet without it?
The analogy above along with the previous one I made were both extremely silly, because they were dealing with a very silly statement. If qualifications are really that important to you, find a recent statement from Fauci saying the US handled things well and then I will listen to you.

During those deaths in New York, you were posting Youtube videos about how the official death figures were probably fake, and you say I have an agenda?
My only agenda from the very start has been for people to take this seriously to avoid very easily preventable deaths. If everyone worked together, the US could have the virus almost eradicated by the end of the year. As it is, it's likely to spread far, far more over the Christmas season, with many, many thousands more people dying, and even with 20/20 hindsight, it isn't making much difference to the current actions. It's sad and stupid, and I would like above all else for people to prove me wrong by beating the virus.
And while the US is the easiest to discuss since it's where the majority of people here are from, a lot of other countries haven't done much better. I actually agree with you that many Governments around the world have been using it as an opportunity to take more control (as they do with almost everything), but I also think the best way to avoid that is to deal with the virus as soon as possible. As the saying goes, the best time to plant an oak tree is 10 years ago, but the second best time is right now.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 30, 2020 05:01PM)
I was posting video of that? I guess.

Fauchi was IN CHARGE of how it was handled.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Nov 30, 2020 06:25PM)
Wasnít Fauchiís job simply making recommendations based on the information he received and his past experience? Thatís not an elected position. I donít remember him ever being in charge of actually making policy. If he made recommendations (or the CDC or anyone else for that matter) it seems it would have been the responsibility of someone higher up the chain to interpret (or even ignore) his advisors and then make policy accordingly. The CDC makes public recommendations as well. On the other hand, if the WH changes the official CDC work product to suit their message, it would seem to undermine the reputation of the CDC and render their statements moot.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Dec 2, 2020 02:55AM)
Https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/sensible-compassionate-anti-covid-strategy/?fbclid=IwAR0dgTmtET5-IywOPAqzDonnIlEQKj4patEnfM2UhforbRTwLW8UD_4RQZQ

I am struck by how scientific these conclusions are. But many of our leaders make their lockdown and restrictive economic decisions based on 'science', and ridicule any dissenting voice and label them as a science denier.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 2, 2020 08:18AM)
[quote]Https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/sensible-......UD_4RQZQ[/quote]

Short version: None of his arguments hold water. It was written and funded with a particular political agenda in mind. Medicine, science, not so much. You can read about his funding and such here if you like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrington_Declaration

If you've got time, point by point:

1. Arguing about the fatality *rate* is meant to distract and confuse. Fatality *rate* with regard to cases is besides the point--it's the absolute number of fatalities which is important. For example, which would you rather have--5 people die out of a total of 10 cases in the entire country, or 10,000,000 dead out of 50,000,000 cases in a country? Clearly in the first instance the fatality rate is 50% and in the second one the fatality rate is only 20%; yet in the first instance only 10 are dead and in the second one 10,000,000 are dead.

So fatality rate is not a good indicator of a virus's damage. It's the absolute number of deaths it causes which is important.

2. He argues that Covid is more deadly for older people. Undoubtedly true. But he draws no conclusion from such data. Does that mean it's okay for youngsters to be exposed to the virus? What about possible transmission from young to old? He says *nothing* about that--presumably that might upset his agenda.

Until we know what the rate of transmission is from young to old, we do not know that it's harmless for society to allow the young to catch covid.

3. He talks about the economic damage from lockdowns. First of all lockdown is an inflammatory, hyperbolic term bandied about to cover many situations. Julian Assange is in lockdown; prisoners locked in prisons who have no way of escaping infection are in a state of lockdown; a person who cannot have their nails professionally manicured or eat at an indoors restaurant is not in a state of lockdown.

Which is not to say there haven't been real economic and societal costs.

But those economic costs are purely the result of selfishness and greediness by the very same people who fund The Great Barrington statement in the link. If governments wanted to, those economic costs could be largely mitigated. They CHOOSE not to do so. Remember that when you think about the wealthiest country in the world and what actual relief has been offered to people. The agenda of transfer of wealth to the wealthy continues. The US went to covid and all we got was this lousy $1200 check. If that. Compare with many other countries suffering much less--because their govts responded in a way that addressed people's needs.

So his complaints about the economy need to be taken up in the political sphere. Next time vote for people that will actually work to make things better for working people instead of stealing their labor and money.


4.He recommends we wait until we reach herd immunity. In the meantime steps to take include: "nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity." This is complete and utter nonsense *since we have no idea whether acquired immunity exists* We have no time frame at all for this. Six months, one year, two years, forever?

And the recommendation about reaching herd immunity is another grievious mistake. As Sweden--the country that Slim likes to misinform about so much--shows. They relied on the herd immunity theory and experienced *far* more deaths in Sweden both absolute and by percentage than its three closest neighbors.

There are certainly good criticisms that can be made of the way the US govt has handled this pandemic. This statement by Jay Bhattacharya addresses *none* of them and is instead a corporate agenda-driven piece of disinformation.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2020 10:20AM)
Is it a coincidence only that your belief in some science and not others lines up perfectly with your view of government power and what should be done?

How amazing the solutions you propose involve exactly what you want to expand government power to.

Businesses are being shuttered for GOOD landmark. People are not greedy. I know you hate capitalism so this works for you, but folks are dying from the result of lock down. And make no mistake that is what this is. Trying to compare it to your hero is ridiculous. The government calls them lock downs, I think we can as well.

You claim they can mitigate the damage? How about giving me back the 200 grand plus I have lost? The government can not float every small business and every person who has lost money. You blow it off because you are happy to see it as an indictment of capitalism, but I am here to tell you that lock downs are killing people in REAL TIME. You are happy to play silly word games and to debate it as if it matters. People who are being killed, starving, homeless and so forth don't have time to do such a thing.

So save us the platitudes. Those of us impacted by this in real time don't care. It has shattered people's dreams, lives and families. I know it doesn't bother you but it affects PEOPLE. Maybe you should think about that before just pushing your agenda. Normally it doesn't bother me so much but you are just on the wrong side when you say it was caused by folks being "greedy" and that is annoying.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 2, 2020 10:35AM)
As your solutions line up perfectly with your view of government.

Difference is, you've not addressed any of the evidence.

And you ask for expertise, and then choose to ignore the person with the absolute most expertise in the field. As did his boss ignore his advice.

It takes a powerful agenda to do that much ignoring. Read the Wikipedia link for Bhattacharya's agenda, which is what my last post was addressing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2020 10:40AM)
I am doing EXACTLY what the government tells me to do. What EXACTLY am I ignoring?

What evidence do I have to address? Have I said that you should NOT follow guidelines? If not then why would I have to address anything?

I AM addressing the economic impact. Do you believe they are just from selfish and greedy folks and everyone should shut up and wait until your all powerful government steps in to help?

And again if I am complying, which I do, then what have I ignored. I have stated MANY times I am not an expert, which you clearly are. But still help me with what I am ignoring.

Oh and my question to all every time is the following. What if the all powerful government you love so much just got this WILDLY wrong? What if most of this was not necessary and no matter WHAT we did it would have turned out the same? Would you trust them to admit it?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 2, 2020 01:17PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

Oh and my question to all every time is the following. What if the all powerful government you love so much just got this WILDLY wrong? What if most of this was not necessary and no matter WHAT we did, it would have turned out the same? Would you trust them to admit it? [/quote]

Sweden tried that. The economy still crashed, and more people died compared to neighboring countries.

I donít think thereís an easy answer. Itís a global pandemic, so it will affect the globe.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 2, 2020 02:14PM)
[quote]
Businesses are being shuttered for GOOD landmark[/quote]

Absolutely. And people laid off for good. That's the system you're defending. The system that lets that happen.

[quote]You claim they can mitigate the damage? How about giving me back the 200 grand plus I have lost? [/quote]

Absolutely. That's what I'm advocating for Danny. Instead of fighting for a failed system, fight for getting something for actual people instead of a T-Shirt and trillions to corporations that don't need it. Why do you insist on undercutting yourself? Do you think you don't deserve it? Why don't you fight for working people and small businesses so that we can get what the people of other countries get? Instead there's all this rhetoric that the government can't do that. Of course they could have! They gave away *trillions* of dollars--not millions or billions, *trillions*.

By the end of the year unemployment benefits are going to run out for millions; those who lost their jobs are going to lose their health insurance as well--because unlike so many other advanced economies the US govt still denies universal medical care to millions. There's a world out there--we can see with our own eyes the difference in what happens in countries that actually care about their people and those that don't.
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 2, 2020 02:21PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
As your solutions line up perfectly with your view of government.

Difference is, you've not addressed any of the evidence.

And you ask for expertise, and then choose to ignore the person with the absolute most expertise in the field. As did his boss ignore his advice.

It takes a powerful agenda to do that much ignoring. Read the Wikipedia link for Bhattacharya's agenda, which is what my last post was addressing. [/quote]
I don't think anyone really thinks he is the absolute expert on this. He is a speaker with a background that aligns with what he is talking about. There is surely better individuals that have more expertise. They are working behind the scenes.

As for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts. I remember when Trump said about a vaccine coming soon and the media said he was making that up, but looks like he was right. There are experts that take both lines. You can choose which ever side you want and find expert friends.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2020 02:21PM)
Where does the money just appear from?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 2, 2020 02:34PM)
Trillions were appropriated.

When money is distributed to real people, instead of large corporations, the money goes back into circulation into the real economy very quickly; people need it to keep up with essentials, their rent, their mortgage payments, their tuition. When given to large corporations, they often stash it, use it for buyouts (where they can then layoff yet more workers!) or buy up more of their own stock.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 2, 2020 02:41PM)
[quote]He is a speaker with a background that aligns with what he is talking about. [/quote]

No, Andy, he is not just a speaker. He has *decades* of experience as a research medical scientist *specifically* in the field of infectious diseases. It would be like comparing me to Dai Vernon. He's certainly not infallible but I'll believe him over some partisan Senator or failed casino owner. And if you think an expert is wrong about his recommendations, fine, everyone is worthy of being challenged, but in the case of an expert, then it's up to the challenger to provide strong evidence for his point of view.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2020 02:54PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
Trillions were appropriated.

When money is distributed to real people, instead of large corporations, the money goes back into circulation into the real economy very quickly; people need it to keep up with essentials, their rent, their mortgage payments, their tuition. When given to large corporations, they often stash it, use it for buyouts (where they can then layoff yet more workers!) or buy up more of their own stock. [/quote]

I know you believe this but it is not necessarily fact.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 2, 2020 03:15PM)
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx?
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 2, 2020 08:05PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near.
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 2, 2020 08:11PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]He is a speaker with a background that aligns with what he is talking about. [/quote]

No, Andy, he is not just a speaker. He has *decades* of experience as a research medical scientist *specifically* in the field of infectious diseases. It would be like comparing me to Dai Vernon. He's certainly not infallible but I'll believe him over some partisan Senator or failed casino owner. And if you think an expert is wrong about his recommendations, fine, everyone is worthy of being challenged, but in the case of an expert, then it's up to the challenger to provide strong evidence for his point of view. [/quote]
You were the one stating he was the absolute expert. I was saying there must be others better then him.

Now as for an expert being challenged. You don't need strong evidence for a point of view. You simply need evidence that people will believe with the proper advertising. Appearance matters even though that has nothing to do with truth.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 2, 2020 08:52PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Dec 3, 2020 04:33AM)
I think it needs to be reinforced that ĎOperation Warp Speedí was an amazing success and will go down in history as a great moment in time. I would argue this was made possible by Trumpís leadership and a capitalist system.

[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, landmark wrote:
When money is distributed to real people, instead of large corporations, the money goes back into circulation into the real economy very quickly; people need it to keep up with essentials, their rent, their mortgage payments, their tuition. When given to large corporations, they often stash it, use it for buyouts (where they can then layoff yet more workers!) or buy up more of their own stock. [/quote]

This is so backwards.

Large corporations employ hundreds of thousands of people and generate billions of dollars for the government. Large corporations and rich business owners, and the hundreds of thousands of people that are employed by them, are what make the country work! Distributing money to real people sounds nice and compassionate, but what you are suggesting is punishing the very people that are making the country thrive!

And by the way, most of these large corporations and rich people donate millions of dollars to charity. But thatís not enough. When you press a liberal on what the tax rate should be for the rich Iíve heard some say 90%! Really? Whatís the incentive to work hard and prosper?

Back to Operation Warp Speed. It was the INCENTIVE to be the first and to PROSPER financially.

Is capitalism so evil?
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 3, 2020 04:56AM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate. [/quote]
Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 3, 2020 07:01AM)
[quote]This is so backwards.

Large corporations employ hundreds of thousands of people and generate billions of dollars for the government. Large corporations and rich business owners, and the hundreds of thousands of people that are employed by them, are what make the country work! Distributing money to real people sounds nice and compassionate, but what you are suggesting is punishing the very people that are making the country thrive!

And by the way, most of these large corporations and rich people donate millions of dollars to charity. But thatís not enough. When you press a liberal on what the tax rate should be for the rich Iíve heard some say 90%! Really? Whatís the incentive to work hard and prosper?

Back to Operation Warp Speed. It was the INCENTIVE to be the first and to PROSPER financially.

Is capitalism so evil?[/quote]

1. "Generate billions of dollars for the government"

In 2018, how much tax did Amazon pay on 11 billion dollars of income? If you guessed, 30% about 3 billion, or 20% about 2 billion, or 10% a billion or 0%--0 dollars, you would be wrong. They actually received a tax refund of 129 million.

Of course they may have been upset about that since the year before in 2017, they received a tax refund of 137 million.

In 2019 on 13.9 billion of income they paid 162 million. That's an effective tax rate of slightly over 1%. Congratulations.

So generate billions of dollars for the government? No. At best, they collected sales tax for the govt--yours and my money, not theirs. And put thousands of small business people out of business while underpaying their workers, and overburdened an already overburdened US postal service.

2. "And by the way, most of these large corporations and rich people donate millions of dollars to charity."

These charities are often a way to politically influence policy in ways that they would be forbidden otherwise. Michael Bloomberg, for example, was a master at this. When the Center for American Progress was about to come out with a report about Islamophobia in the wake of 9/11, he donated money so that they would take out a section about police conduct, and after the censored report was issued, donated another bunch of money. Just one of many, many ways he used his money to silence critics and consolidate power.

And of course, Apple and Microsoft give all kinds of money to "education" with the express purpose of pushing their brand loyalty on future users. But it's worse than that. Bill Gates's meddling in education programs has been failure after failure starting with the small school movement to Common Core. And of course corporate giving is often used to whitewash a company's misdeeds.

So yes large corporations spend money in their self-interest. But even the Mafia gives out turkeys on Thanksgiving.

3. "When you press a liberal on what the tax rate should be for the rich Iíve heard some say 90%!"

Misleading, though that number 90% was not picked out of the air. That was the actual marginal corporate tax rate under President Eisenhower, under whose administration both the rate of job growth and median family income increased substantially. Talking of a 90% tax rate is misleading--it's a return to a 90% *marginal* tax rate that some have advocated. That means only the portion above a certain number is taxed. So, for example, under Eisenhower in 1953 the 90% tax rate only applied to that portion of income over about 3 million--which was a lot of money in those days. It only applied to a relatively few people.

4. "Back to Operation Warp Speed. It was the INCENTIVE to be the first and to PROSPER financially."

Had the US entered into agreements with the rest of the world to share scientific knowledge, we might have had a vaccine even sooner and at much lower cost. Now once again, US consumers--basically all of us--are on the hook for the whims of the US vaccine makers.

And this for-profit rush has created a secondary problem. *Many* people, rightly or wrongly, have little trust that a vaccine reduced under such a rush system is going to be safe, when pharmaceutical companies have had every incentive to cut corners. It's not like those very same companies haven't blatantly, criminally lied about their products' efficacy in the past when it affected their bottom lime.

And so far, I don't believe that any of the companies announcing vaccines have actually released their research test results. It's all been self-reported. We don't know length of protection, the efficacy of results in gender, age, and race subgroups, and so on. Nor do we know possible frequency and severity of side effects.

So with regard to Operation Warp Speed, the jury is still out. With regard to incentive, you might want to recall instead what Dr. Jonas Salk did with the polio vaccine. It was enough incentive for him that his name would forever go down into history as one of the great medical researchers of all time.

5. "Is capitalism so evil?"

I don't believe inanimate systems can be morally good or evil. But they can be successes or failures. They can be efficient or broken. And a system that cannot provide basic food, clothing, work, and medical care for its people in the worst pandemic in a century, while other Western countries can do so, is broken. People agree to economic and political systems because they feel that they are set up to help them survive. If it can't help, then what good is the system that was set up? Would you keep a car that breaks down every time you really need to get to the other side of town? The car isn't "evil" but it doesn't work. You either need to fix it or get a new one.
Message: Posted by: Ken Northridge (Dec 3, 2020 07:47AM)
Landmark,

I really think it boils down to seeing the glass half empty or half full.

For example, you see Amazon as a company that 'put thousands of small business people out of businesses, underpaying their workers, and overburden an already overburdened US postal service.' I see Amazon as a company that provides a million people with jobs while creating an excellent service for its consumers. That's a million people that are paying taxes instead of collecting unemployment. That's what I mean when I say large corporations and business owners (the rich) generate billions of dollars for the government.

I could say the same about your other points. You see the rich giving to charities as sinister plot to get more money and power. I'm sure that happens, but I choose to see as amazing generosity and selflessness.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Dec 3, 2020 07:48AM)
A look at Amazonís financial statements shows it does pay taxes. In 2017, Amazon paid close to $1 billion in income tax. In 2018, the amount jumped to $1.18 billion, accounting for local, state, and international taxes.

Amazon pays plenty in terms of payroll taxes and also state and local taxes. Nor should you forget the taxes paid by Amazonís employees on their wages. Not only is that direct revenue to various levels of government, but the incidence of those taxes falls somewhat on Amazon, which now must pay higher wages to offset the tax burden faced by their employees

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stephaniedenning/2019/02/22/why-amazon-pays-no-corporate-taxes/?sh=387844a554d5

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 07:49AM)
Socialism is evil. Plus it bas failed every time it is tried.

By the way companies pay ZERO taxes. Raise taxes on a company and they pass it along in a price increase. So who pays that?

Landmark always wants to forget this in his little vision of Utopia.

Sorry landmark in this section where everyone is an entrepreneur your speeches are not going to work.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 3, 2020 08:23AM)
[quote]Raise taxes on a company and they pass it along in a price increase. So who pays that?
[/quote]

That's an interesting argument that is also brought up when minimum wage laws are discussed. And as with the minimum wage, the data generally shows that prices don't go up. Or they go up for brief periods and then go back down.

What in fact happens is that companies cannot raise prices by much because 1) demand will go down, and worse, 2) competitors willing to absorb some of the loss will force the others to match prices or else lose significant market share.

By the way, when there is a tax decrease, is it passed along to the consumer as a price decrease? Almost never.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 3, 2020 08:28AM)
[quote]Landmark always wants to forget this in his little vision of Utopia. [/quote]

I don't consider the systems of England, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, Israel, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway quite Utopia, but they do far better with medical and unemployment benefits than the US. And consequently, the effects of the virus while awful, are significantly less awful in those countries with regard to their economies. Red-baiting doesn't change that. When will Americans stand up for themselves and demand what every other Western country has?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 11:02AM)
We are not every other country. Feel free to move if you hate it here so much and yearn for their systems so badly. I notice how nobody ever does that!

Show us the facts in unemployment and virus please. In pretty certain you're just citing socialist propaganda..
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 3, 2020 11:20AM)
Https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/business/economy/europe-us-jobless-coronavirus.html

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/24/united-states-europe-coronavirus-pandemic-shutdown-unemployment/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/business/europe-unemployment-coronavirus/index.html

When will Americans demand the basic protections that every other Western nation provides?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 12:24PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate. [/quote]
Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it. [/quote]

I think youíre confusing available with widespread availability. Dr. Fauci, and others have said it will be next year spring / summer before itís widely available and distributed. That hasnít changed to my knowledge.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 12:26PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We are not every other country. Feel free to move if you hate it here so much and yearn for their systems so badly. I notice how nobody ever does that!

Show us the facts in unemployment and virus please. In pretty certain you're just citing socialist propaganda.. [/quote]

I was born in this country, love it, and want it to improve. I choose to use my rights to vote for changes that I want to see.

Why do you want people you disagree with to move out of the country Danny?
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 3, 2020 01:13PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate. [/quote]
Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it. [/quote]

I think youíre confusing available with widespread availability. Dr. Fauci, and others have said it will be next year spring / summer before itís widely available and distributed. That hasnít changed to my knowledge. [/quote]
Just looked at a piece from October. He said he was optimistic for a vaccine by the end of the year, but it would not be distributed until next year. That still falls in line with what I had heard in the past. I never heard anyone talk about widespread availability only those who would be first to recieve it.

I should also put in that I don't watch the news constantly I am busy with my work and family.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 01:52PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate. [/quote]
Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it. [/quote]

I think youíre confusing available with widespread availability. Dr. Fauci, and others have said it will be next year spring / summer before itís widely available and distributed. That hasnít changed to my knowledge. [/quote]
Just looked at a piece from October. He said he was optimistic for a vaccine by the end of the year, but it would not be distributed until next year. That still falls in line with what I had heard in the past. I never heard anyone talk about widespread availability only those who would be first to recieve it.

I should also put in that I don't watch the news constantly I am busy with my work and family. [/quote]

Right.. which is correct. Available end of the year, distributed in 2021. So Dr. Fauci was correct.

I donít watch the news constantly, I just donít like it when people say things that are not correct.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 03:29PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We are not every other country. Feel free to move if you hate it here so much and yearn for their systems so badly. I notice how nobody ever does that!

Show us the facts in unemployment and virus please. In pretty certain you're just citing socialist propaganda.. [/quote]

I was born in this country, love it, and want it to improve. I choose to use my rights to vote for changes that I want to see.

Why do you want people you disagree with to move out of the country Danny? [/quote]

Wasn't talking to you. Landmark is constantly saying how much better other socialist societes are. So why not just go instead of constantly complaining?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 05:58PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We are not every other country. Feel free to move if you hate it here so much and yearn for their systems so badly. I notice how nobody ever does that!

Show us the facts in unemployment and virus please. In pretty certain you're just citing socialist propaganda.. [/quote]

I was born in this country, love it, and want it to improve. I choose to use my rights to vote for changes that I want to see.

Why do you want people you disagree with to move out of the country Danny? [/quote]


Wasn't talking to you. Landmark is constantly saying how much better other socialist societes are. So why not just go instead of constantly complaining? [/quote]

Well I canít speak for him, but perhaps he wants to use his voice and his rights to vote to make this country better. Thatís what I think all Americans should have the desire to do.

Iíll ask again, Do you think people who donít agree with you politically should leave the country? Thatís how I took your response to landmark but if I read too much into it, Iíd like to know.
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 3, 2020 06:40PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate. [/quote]
Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it. [/quote]

I think youíre confusing available with widespread availability. Dr. Fauci, and others have said it will be next year spring / summer before itís widely available and distributed. That hasnít changed to my knowledge. [/quote]
Just looked at a piece from October. He said he was optimistic for a vaccine by the end of the year, but it would not be distributed until next year. That still falls in line with what I had heard in the past. I never heard anyone talk about widespread availability only those who would be first to recieve it.

I should also put in that I don't watch the news constantly I am busy with my work and family. [/quote]

Right.. which is correct. Available end of the year, distributed in 2021. So Dr. Fauci was correct.

I donít watch the news constantly, I just donít like it when people say things that are not correct. [/quote]

I don't believe I was incorrect. I really think it comes down to the constant changing in What is and isn't. There is a lot of flip flopping. Once again he said he was optimistic on it coming at the end of the year, not confident it would be.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 07:00PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
[quote]On Dec 2, 2020, thomasR wrote:
ďAs for Trump, he didn't listen to him, but other experts.Ē

Which experts did President Trump listen to, and what were their credentials that made them experts equal to Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx? [/quote]
You'll have to ask him, since I want privy to that.

Just remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near. [/quote]

Which experts are you referring to? Dr. Fauci said late 2020 in August. Which seems to be pretty accurate. [/quote]
Sorry I missed that. I know that in October he was in the boat for next year in the summer. But so did the media and Biden. They all ripped on Trump for suggesting that a vaccine was near.

I didn't watch all his press conferences, but I would have thought the media would have grabbed that and went with it, but there was an electron so maybe they just overlooked it. [/quote]

I think youíre confusing available with widespread availability. Dr. Fauci, and others have said it will be next year spring / summer before itís widely available and distributed. That hasnít changed to my knowledge. [/quote]
Just looked at a piece from October. He said he was optimistic for a vaccine by the end of the year, but it would not be distributed until next year. That still falls in line with what I had heard in the past. I never heard anyone talk about widespread availability only those who would be first to recieve it.

I should also put in that I don't watch the news constantly I am busy with my work and family. [/quote]

Right.. which is correct. Available end of the year, distributed in 2021. So Dr. Fauci was correct.

I donít watch the news constantly, I just donít like it when people say things that are not correct. [/quote]

I don't believe I was incorrect. I really think it comes down to the constant changing in What is and isn't. There is a lot of flip flopping. Once again he said he was optimistic on it coming at the end of the year, not confident it would be. [/quote]

What about that is incorrect? None of us are mind readers. Oh wait... except we are on this site!!!!

It still hasnít been approved in the USA, if all goes well it will be soon but thatís still being optimistic. Several boxes have to be checked still.
1 delay would send it into early 2021.
Message: Posted by: Andy Young (Dec 3, 2020 07:09PM)
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you said you didn't like it when people were not correct. I thought that was directed at my post.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 07:16PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We are not every other country. Feel free to move if you hate it here so much and yearn for their systems so badly. I notice how nobody ever does that!

Show us the facts in unemployment and virus please. In pretty certain you're just citing socialist propaganda.. [/quote]

I was born in this country, love it, and want it to improve. I choose to use my rights to vote for changes that I want to see.

Why do you want people you disagree with to move out of the country Danny? [/quote]


Wasn't talking to you. Landmark is constantly saying how much better other socialist societes are. So why not just go instead of constantly complaining? [/quote]

Well I canít speak for him, but perhaps he wants to use his voice and his rights to vote to make this country better. Thatís what I think all Americans should have the desire to do.

Iíll ask again, Do you think people who donít agree with you politically should leave the country? Thatís how I took your response to landmark but if I read too much into it, Iíd like to know. [/quote]
If you took it that way that is totally on you. I never said or implied anything but what I just said. It was a statement of his right to move, not a demand.

But go ahead and pretend anything you want.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 07:18PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Andy Young wrote:
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you said you didn't like it when people were not correct. I thought that was directed at my post. [/quote]

You said ďJust remember that the experts said their would not be a vaccine anytime soon, but they are near.Ē

I asked if you were referring to Dr. Fauci. The current timeline is exactly what he predicted.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 07:19PM)
You just are determined to argue with everyone aren't you?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2020 07:28PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
We are not every other country. Feel free to move if you hate it here so much and yearn for their systems so badly. I notice how nobody ever does that!

Show us the facts in unemployment and virus please. In pretty certain you're just citing socialist propaganda.. [/quote]

I was born in this country, love it, and want it to improve. I choose to use my rights to vote for changes that I want to see.

Why do you want people you disagree with to move out of the country Danny? [/quote]


Wasn't talking to you. Landmark is constantly saying how much better other socialist societes are. So why not just go instead of constantly complaining? [/quote]

Well I canít speak for him, but perhaps he wants to use his voice and his rights to vote to make this country better. Thatís what I think all Americans should have the desire to do.

Iíll ask again, Do you think people who donít agree with you politically should leave the country? Thatís how I took your response to landmark but if I read too much into it, Iíd like to know. [/quote]
If you took it that way that is totally on you. I never said or implied anything but what I just said. It was a statement of his right to move, not a demand.

But go ahead and pretend anything you want. [/quote]

Sorry I took it the wrong way. Thatís why I asked for clarity. Youíll be in my thoughts, sorry you seem to be upset by my participation in this thread.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 07:40PM)
I am not. But when you jump in the middle of me talking to landmark and start doing things like this you look just argumentative.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 3, 2020 10:09PM)
Let's see. I mentioned that England, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, Israel, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway are not Utopia, but are doing better with medical and unemployment help than the US. Which of those countries do you feel are socialist, repressive countries?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2020 10:55PM)
We are NOT those countries, nor should we try to be. They are indeed doing better with "help" but where were they BEFORE this problem?

Like I said you are preaching in the wrong section here.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 3, 2020 11:15PM)
Before the pandemic? They were in a place where they could respond intelligently to a medical and economic emergency.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 4, 2020 01:01AM)
Riiiight. Little revisionist history going on there. But keep pushing your Utopian socialist agenda. It is what makes you happy.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/03/europe-not-in-a-stable-situation-says-who-as-cases-rise-in-serbia-and-croatia
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 4, 2020 01:19AM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, landmark wrote:
Before the pandemic? They were in a place where they could respond intelligently to a medical and economic emergency. [/quote]

First he asks why you donít leave the country, and now he says youíre pushing a socialist agenda.

Iím not sure why he feels the need to behave this way, but I apologize on behalf of other magicians and other Americans.
Letís keep voting for change :)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 4, 2020 07:18AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Riiiight. Little revisionist history going on there. But keep pushing your Utopian socialist agenda. It is what makes you happy.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/03/europe-not-in-a-stable-situation-says-who-as-cases-rise-in-serbia-and-croatia [/quote]

Yes people in Italy are dying. And three times the number are dying here daily. But your article says *nothing* about medical and economic help for the populace, which is what we are discussing. The question is what are countries doing to mitigate the pain?

And again, since you insist on red-baiting, which of the following countries do you feel is an evil socialist country because they provide universal medical insurance for their people, while many of them allowed people to stay at work by paying them their salaries:

England, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, Israel, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, or Norway?

Instead of insisting "We're Number One" when in this case we clearly are not, we might try and *learn* something from other countries. We don't have to *become* them, but we can be open to learning from them. Believe it or not, there are some countries that do some things better than we do.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 4, 2020 08:20AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2020, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Dec 3, 2020, landmark wrote:
Before the pandemic? They were in a place where they could respond intelligently to a medical and economic emergency. [/quote]

First he asks why you donít leave the country, and now he says youíre pushing a socialist agenda.

Iím not sure why he feels the need to behave this way, but I apologize on behalf of other magicians and other Americans.
Letís keep voting for change :) [/quote]

Apparently you do not read his other posts in NVMS.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 4, 2020 08:24AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2020, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Dec 4, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Riiiight. Little revisionist history going on there. But keep pushing your Utopian socialist agenda. It is what makes you happy.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/03/europe-not-in-a-stable-situation-says-who-as-cases-rise-in-serbia-and-croatia [/quote]

Yes people in Italy are dying. And three times the number are dying here daily. But your article says *nothing* about medical and economic help for the populace, which is what we are discussing. The question is what are countries doing to mitigate the pain?

And again, since you insist on red-baiting, which of the following countries do you feel is an evil socialist country because they provide universal medical insurance for their people, while many of them allowed people to stay at work by paying them their salaries:

England, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, Israel, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, or Norway?

Instead of insisting "We're Number One" when in this case we clearly are not, we might try and *learn* something from other countries. We don't have to *become* them, but we can be open to learning from them. Believe it or not, there are some countries that do some things better than we do. [/quote]

Why not state for everyone your political goals here so they know? Be honest about what you think America needs to be. Tell us all about the failed system that is America you always preach.

It is always such a big part of your criticism and leaving it out is disingenuous.

If you ARE socialist then is it red baiting to simply point it out? I am a capitalist. Why is knowing who is speaking red baiting?

Go ahead and share your vision for America unvarnished and let's then discuss.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 4, 2020 06:35PM)
Please. I've never been shy about my political beliefs and you well know that.

The red-baiting comes in when you don't respond to the content of a post, but do what you think is name-calling. It's a lazy way to avoid dealing with the actual detail of what's been said. It's something out of the 1950s.

You call yourself a capitalist, and yet you argue so vehemently against what the other capitalist countries I've mentioned are doing. Why is that? Are they not capitalist countries? What is your opinion on that? Maybe you're not a capitalist. Or maybe you're only a certain kind of capitalist?

Believe it or not, capitalist countries can learn from other capitalist countries.

My vision for America which I've stated more than once here is one where during a pandemic, workers and small businessmen can get universal medical insurance and a universal basic income at the very least. I've already said that. What's your vision and your solution to 300,000 dead and economic distress? Best I remember--not sure if it was here or NVMS--is you've said probably nothing more can be done. Which is so lame when we have the examples of what *can* be done by looking at other countries who have handled the consequences so much better.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 4, 2020 09:59PM)
How do you plan to do it within the bounds of the Constitution?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 5, 2020 06:44AM)
What part of the Constitution says Congress may not legislate universal medical insurance or a universal basic income or provide for the general welfare?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 5, 2020 08:58AM)
I know you like to expand the general welfare clause, but that sort of thing is the purview of the State. But keep trying.

You want to use it as a blank check to do everything you believe is right. Doesn't work that way.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 5, 2020 10:15AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2020, landmark wrote:
Best I remember--not sure if it was here or NVMS--is you've said probably nothing more can be done. [/quote]

Just to get to this let me say that I said I don't know what more can be done. Meaning I, unlike you and so many others, an NOT an infections disease expert. So I don't know what can and can not be done.

I, unlike you and so many others am not an expert in the Constitution, war, foreign affairs, the Middle East, the economy, elections in literally every state in every level, medicine, heath care, gun control, police shootings, corruption, and the list goes on.

It means I know my limits quite well and stay within them. Even if a politician says something I may agree with but personally know nothing about it carries no weight with me.

You have an agenda and world view that is going to be pushed no matter what. You see everything through the prism of how bad America is and want to change it. Cool this is absolutely your right. I just think it is important to point it out. Which by the way is MY right and it is pathetic when you and thomasR try to suppress MY rights when you call it red baiting and he wants to apologize like he did.

That is the problem with rights isn't it? Everyone has them!