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Topic: I'll probably get my butt kicked for saying this.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Sep 11, 2020 12:59PM)
I'm only 14 months into learning and studying magic so maybe this is a very naive opinion but I keep seeing the same thing in every book I open... "Give your magic meaning."
This is emphasized so many different ways with so many different examples of how just "a pick a card trick" will fall flat without some relatable storyline. Some substance. At this point in my life, I think I might disagree some. As someone who was recently a layman but watched and enjoyed many magic shows both in person and on my television over the years I can honestly say, I think a fresh perspective might not hurt.

The theory I keep reading makes it sound like magic is this delicious cheeseburger fresh off the grill but before we can serve it to the public we need to cover it with a cup of salt & pepper and every condiment we have and a story about 4 kings and a queen before we can expect a magic-seeking paying audience to force it down their throat. I just like the cheeseburger and I think that the magic just needs to speak for itself.
I think the reason that David Blaine and Shim Lin are some of the biggest recent household names is because the general public comes for the effects, just the effects, not the patter. Meanwhile others are completely turned off by much of the magic of the last few decades because they envision some geeky guy telling some cheesy story, a story they would never want to hear in real life unless they were 5 years old.. They just want to see some magic.

I've heard it said so many times that unless your audience can relate with your props(cards to gambling, Coins to slot machines, sponge objects instead of spongeballs) that your presentation will lack substance. I've also heard it said that many are against using items that aren't relatable or found in the "real world" like spongeballs because they exist only in the world of a magician (these same people often have no problem using a $300 cups & balls set or a several thousand dollar stage prop used only for cutting a lady in half). Personally, I think people want to enter the world of magic and be entertained. Not only that, I think they want to leave their normal world, escape & be entertained in the magic world with.... not some made-up storyline about how you're banned in Vegas but... Magic.

Like I mentioned, I've only been studying the craft for a tad over a year but I've been booking entertainment for a chain of casinos for a decade (still early in my career, I know) but I've hired many magicians. Some you've neverd heard of, some who have written the book on magic. I try to study what works and what doesn't before booking and re-booking. I also handle all the casino's social media and respond to every bit of feedback that comes through regarding putting on "another magic show". I've heard a lot of interesting feedback from laymen who both hate or love magic.

Don't get me wrong, some people really have it down and have brought me to tears with a great relatable storyline that actually enhances the magic rather than dilutes it but most of the time they don't, it's so cheesy that I think they should skip the patter and let the magic speak for itself. Anyway take it easy on me with your responses, I'm still learning and this is just an observation. Maybe next month I'll completely disagree with this line of thinking.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Sep 11, 2020 04:54PM)
You are lucky that in your job you have an opportunity to observe a good variety of performers and audience reactions--more opportunity than most. You've got a theory now about what works. Now see if it carries over into your own practice. That back and forth between theory and practice is what's going to bring you to your own style.

Personally, my take on what you've said is, it depends. Pop Haydn, a very fine magician, has often expressed similar sentiments here to what you've written. He doesn't think that "meaning' is something that you slather on like ketchup onto an effect. The meaning in magic is the magic itself is his feeling about it.

OTOH, some enjoy the Eugene Burger/ Jeff McBride/ Robert Neale "mystery school" approach.

For me, personally, I like to watch magic that is utterly fooling, performed by an engaging and compelling personality who comes off as someone who I'd like to know more about. Telling stories about your spooky grandfather is less than compelling to me. Give me something funny or horrible, but original and creative that evokes a real emotion in me.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 11, 2020 05:25PM)
The only story that matters is the one they tell tomorrow and twenty yeas for now about the experience of magic that you and they created together.
All the rest (except the moment of astonishment) is to grab and sustain interest, set up false expectations and get them to trust you (maybe like you).

One problem today is any understanding of what an audience expects, what their experience with magic is, and what other factors are fighting for their attention.
This may be worse in Las Vegas or other major entertainment centers. So, performers go overboard to make themselves the center of focused attention.

Astounding magic is fairly easy when the audience TOGETHER knows you are a magician (understand what that means), know that you a re intending to demonstrate something astonishing or inexplicable,
and that you are doing it NOW. This is tough with so many distractions, confusion and the "illusion of knowledge" prevalent.

I am from Reno originally. Please recognize you are not in an normal entertainment setting. Be patient and forgiving.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Sep 11, 2020 06:18PM)
First, this is a forum for opinions and I don't believe anyone should ever get their butt kicked for sharing an opinion. For me, the term "Give your magic meaning" might not resonate correctly for many people. I want it to have meaning to me. If it resonates with me on a deeper level, that should translate to my audience without me necessarily having the need to even explain it. I do NOT think it means to make everything into a literal "story" as some do. That can sometimes weigh down an effect to the point of making the viewer weary. Yes, as performers we are all storytellers to some degree but again, it doesn't have to be literal. When I'm directing magicians, I always say that each object we introduce is a character in our story. The more unusual and out of place that character is, the more we are required to justify its existence in some way. The story we tell begins from out first step on stage. our first line, look and expression. Yes, it must all have meaning to us and in turn, must intrigue the audience to the point of them wanting to listen and watch more closely to understand our inner meanings as we take them on the journey that is our "Act" or show. There are segments where I am actually playing a character in our show and at other times just presenting magic as a pure mystery. In both cases... what I'm doing always has meaning to me. It is the through-line that keeps me on track and keeps the overall show together. Each piece is a part of that story. The audience might not know it intellectually but if I've done my job correctly, they will feel it.

You mentioned Shin and David. They exemplify my point above. Everything they do means something to them. You might not know what it is... but you can feel it.

That is everything to me.
Message: Posted by: Kanawati (Sep 11, 2020 06:54PM)
Just want to say that every observation and insight from dustrod, landmark, funsway and Ray Pierce has given me plenty of food for thought. Thank you guys. John
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 11, 2020 11:22PM)
With regard to meaning I agree with Dustrod.

With regard to the general public coming for the effects and just the effects, I disagree with Dustrod.

Both of these issues are dealt with in Our Magic.

https://archive.org/details/ourmagicartinmag00mask

I would suggest one reads the whole book carefully but the chapter on the difference between Drama and Magic deals with meaning and why people cannot relate to magic and the chapter on Speed in Presentation deals with why the general public do not come for the effects and just the effects.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Sep 12, 2020 09:23AM)
Thanks everyone for the very insightful responses. Tommy, I will read Our Magic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 18, 2020 10:28AM)
You are entitled to your position. You have reasoned it out and that is great.

I think the phrase may mean different things to different people.

I'm glad to see you putting so much time and effort into your positions. It will serve you well. Never stop even if some kick your but, which they shouldn't.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Sep 18, 2020 12:19PM)
Thanks Dannydoyle!
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Sep 18, 2020 12:26PM)
One of the things we have to be careful of in Our Magic is that it was written many years ago and audiences have changed. The basic principles discussed are still valid, but we need to spend some time thinking about how they apply today.

As mentioned above, slathering meaning onto a magic trick that stands on its own is pointless. I've seen many performers who tried to make up a story that didn't make sense, and it just comes across to me as the performer just wanting to hear himself/herself talk. And then there are those who shovel "comedy" into it, like they really want to be comedians doing magic, or like they're bored with the whole thing and just want to entertain themselves. You can always tell whether it works or not by paying close and honest attention to the audience response.

There are plenty of good performers out there that we can learn from. But we have to relax and let it happen.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 18, 2020 12:42PM)
Good insights, George. Of course "attention to audience response" can be different from a long term impact or memory.

Sometimes I have been unimpressed by a magic performance, but some part of it lingers or reappears in memory.
Then I go back and try and figure out what part worked vs most that did not.
In similar vein, the effect that people talk about to friends may be ones they figured out and not the better magic ones they could not.

Magician, "Wow, that is the biggest applause I've ever received!"

Friend, "Yup, they were so glad you were finally done!"
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Sep 19, 2020 12:23PM)
For the most part, I think people who perform magic are the worst at judging a general audience's response. They see magic differently.

I've been hanging around the Café for about fifteen years, and I'm totally convinced of it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 19, 2020 05:43PM)
I think the audience respond in three different ways to three different interrelated aspects of the effect.

1, The audience respond subjectively to the patter, whether it is mimed or spoken, by willingly suspending their rational faculties, going along with it for their amusment, because the patter aspect is obviously fiction being offered.

2, The audience respond objectively to each step of the magic experiment by engaging their rational faculties, logically questioning each and every step, because the experiment aspect is obviously sensible facts being offered.

3, The audience respond at the climax with amazement and amusement because they know the fictional nonsense asserted in the patter cannot possibly be true but that is just what the facts of the experiment have proven it to be.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 20, 2020 06:05AM)
My specific purpose in using incredible patter, is to get the company to receive it with polite but absolute incredulity, so that when I proceed to prove the assertion true, they are amazed and amused. If one simply performs magic without any bosh, then they may be amazed but not amused.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 20, 2020 12:38PM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2020, George Ledo wrote:
For the most part, I think people who perform magic are the worst at judging a general audience's response. They see magic differently.

I've been hanging around the Café for about fifteen years, and I'm totally convinced of it. [/quote]

I actually think magic "fans" who perform magic are the worst at judging audience response. Those who are professionals working day in and day out are generally quite good at this in my experience.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Sep 20, 2020 04:40PM)
[quote]On Sep 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I actually think magic "fans" who perform magic are the worst at judging audience response. Those who are professionals working day in and day out are generally quite good at this in my experience. [/quote]

You have to, your survival depends on it. As a general rule: perform more, pontificate less.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 20, 2020 09:09PM)
[quote]On Sep 20, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
[quote]On Sep 20, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I actually think magic "fans" who perform magic are the worst at judging audience response. Those who are professionals working day in and day out are generally quite good at this in my experience. [/quote]

You have to, your survival depends on it. As a general rule: perform more, pontificate less. [/quote]

EXACTLY.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Sep 22, 2020 11:18AM)
Thank you, gentlemen, I stand clarified.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Sep 23, 2020 07:51PM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2020, George Ledo wrote:
For the most part, I think people who perform magic are the worst at judging a general audience's response. They see magic differently.

I've been hanging around the Café for about fifteen years, and I'm totally convinced of it. [/quote]

To be fair, if that is your sample of magicians your POV would be totally understood. The only time I'm around other magicians is doing a group show like "It's Magic" or something along those lines. Most in the show are in the same relative peer group so it might yield different results.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 4, 2020 09:22PM)
The audience decides if an act is entertaining. The audience decides whether something is wonderful, astounding, clever, magical, or just good/nice...
[quote]On Sep 11, 2020, dustrod wrote:
...I've been booking entertainment for a chain of casinos for a decade (still early in my career, I know) but I've hired many magicians. Some you've neverd heard of, some who have written the book on magic. I try to study what works and what doesn't before booking and re-booking. I also handle all the casino's social media and respond to every bit of feedback that comes through regarding putting on "another magic show". I've heard a lot of interesting feedback from laymen who both hate or love magic.

Don't get me wrong, some people really have it down and have brought me to tears with a great relatable storyline that actually enhances the magic rather than dilutes it but most of the time they don't, it's so cheesy that I think they should skip the patter and let the magic speak for itself. Anyway take it easy on me with your responses, I'm still learning and this is just an observation. Maybe next month I'll completely disagree with this line of thinking. [/quote]Please say some about what you wanted from the booked acts and what you saw (or heard about via feedback) [i]not working[/i] in that venue. Not to name names but rather to describe the venue and how the performer missed the mark.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Oct 4, 2020 10:47PM)
During the advertising process we get a lot of negative comments that say, "Not another magic show!" during the discussion,fans will run to the magician's defense often (as do I).
The complainer will usually hint and sometimes explain why magic shows have grown tired and lost their interest, usually referring to the "geekyness" of the magician or the "complete cheesiness" that accompanies it.
Often times these complaints are on shows that are nothing of the sort but they assume so because that's all they've seen and they think they're all the same. I always get backlash like this when I book magic shows.

There's one act I've hired twice. The first time he was amazing but the second time I don't think he got enough sleep (I suspected maybe even under the influence of drugs). He did the exact same routines but for the second show we had lots of complaints and even people tell us they figured out how to do some of the illusions. (I don't think they actually fully figured out the tricks, I suspect they just knew there was No Way this clumsy angry guy was magical and they believed what they wanted) Although, This second show was when I personally figured out how to do the lady on the broomstick act because the magician's grace and finesse were completely gone that day and all of his movements were staged and unnatural. The fans were absolutely correct. Originally I was impressed with some of his very impressive and unique stage props & illusions but after the 2nd show, I realized props won't save you from a bad presentation.

We had another magician recently that had lots of big props, women, and fire but an impressive amount of positive feedback came from a short mostly silent closeup act in the middle of the show where he did some very simple effects. Ambitious card, a Spongeball routine, and Double Cross. I thought that was interesting.

I've hired some local magicians to do a few different style shows but upon arrival they sprung it on me that they needed to cut their set length down significantly or almost cancel last minute because they didn't ask important questions about the parameters of venue or didn't bother to advance the show. I hired a walk around magician locally once who decided he couldn't perform unless on stage because none of his tricks permitted any angles other than straight on from stage.

I've hired a few magicians that were so dead set on using their 1,000 year old lapel mic and refuse our audio advice and the show suffered terribly.
Some magicians have brought their own techs who know nothing and refuse to learn or accept the advice of my techs who know the room dynamics, the lighting equipment, or the mixing board and the show has suffered. (this happens with music too and because of it, I've seen the opening acts outsell the merch table over the headliner and while they're buying their album they ask, why did the other band's microphones not work? Or weren't their amps working? Or I couldn't understand them, too much reverb?)

I've realized pitching a mentalism show can be difficult to the general public from a venue perspective. Unless people already know what a mentalism show is or know who the act is, we get a lot of backlash from anti-psychic people that start the heckling the second we announce.
Some of them who attended anyway have called me afterwards to tell me how amazing the show was even though they were expecting something completely different.


I've found it is true that if the fans figure out 10% of the trick, they think they know it all and this is true the most when the show lacks the "it" factor. I often stand at the back of the room to gage the audience's response and I'm approached often as someone leaves for a bathroom break and they'll sometimes whisper to me, "He's good but I know he had it in his hand the whole time" or "that wasn't a real dove". Although I've noticed if the show is really good,Especially high energy, they won't mention this to me,hasn't happened. One show, the blade fell off the saw-the-lady- in-half box and exposed everything but the magician didn't even acknowledge it, just kept the energy going. I heard about 1/4 of the room gasp for a second and it was over. It was a great show overall and Nobody mentioned it to me. It was forgotten.

There was a famous magician who brought his psychotic girlfriend with and she stayed up all night picking fights with security and hotel staff. They're not allowed back even though their show is awesome!

I've also run into newer tour managers spilling the secrets of the star and realized if you need to pick a tm who knows your secrets, make sure they can keep their mouth shut offstage.

There's a few examples. I probably went off topic but these are some of the ones that really stick out to me.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 5, 2020 08:05AM)
[quote]On Oct 4, 2020, dustrod wrote:
I probably went off topic but these are some of the ones that really stick out to me. [/quote]


For me you actually "got on topic" as to something I can use or build on. Thanks for that!

For decades I have clamored that magic can only happen if the performer creates the expectation that it will --
that the audience must expect and even desire magic to occur. This can be difficult, perhaps more so in Las Vegas.

But, it is easy for performer to kill the "must be magic" result as you have described.

I would suggest that many magicians today do not even have "magic" on their agenda, but just an opinion.
They may even believe that puzzle, shock, confusion or revulsion are mystical substitutes.

They maybe right! Is there any magic in the mind of the spectator? Has the concept been killed by Hollywood, marketing and childhood stultification of imagination?

You can't fish for trout in a bottle of distilled water!

What does the audience expect when the see "magician" on the billing?

Your comments suggest that some might appreciate magic if it occurs. That is nice to hear.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 5, 2020 08:50AM)
We own a bar and book magicians now and again for private functions and we get feedback mainly from the bars face book page. Some are better than others and some reviews are fantastic. They get very excited telling their stories about their experience. We ask the client what sort entertainment he wants and he can either book an act himself or we can do it. I am silent partner and don’t have anything to do it but go down to watch the magicians when they have booked one as when I can.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Oct 6, 2020 10:03AM)
Thanks funsway. Those are good, thought provoking questions.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 7, 2020 04:56AM)
There is more to patter than meets the eye or ear of course. It is or can be used as misdirection to cover moves, especially mined patter; see Cardini for example.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Oct 7, 2020 10:50AM)
[quote]On Oct 7, 2020, tommy wrote:
There is more to patter than meets the eye or ear of course. It is or can be used as misdirection to cover moves, especially mined patter; see Cardini for example. [/quote]

That's very true Tommy. In fact just yesterday or so I was reading some things about that and thought long and hard about it... and also that certain communication needs to happen, usually verbally, to make sure the spectator understands the premise or the expectation of an effect. As I'm learning more and more each day I find what you're saying to be true, "There is more to patter than meets the eye."
For those that have their patter down pat, where it adds to their effect without taking away from it, I give them a lot of credit.
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Oct 21, 2020 08:19PM)
As corporal Shultz would say, "very interesting".
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 15, 2020 07:08PM)
Dustrod, the observations from life are helpful. It's not about [i]who[/i] but "what/when" things did not go well.

As a group we can learn from examples of what was poorly set up or tried in the wrong context
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 16, 2020 05:56PM)
Speaking of Mine:

“The audience comes to see you; not the illusion.” Tony Montanaro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plt1wY_t1FI
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Nov 18, 2020 09:03PM)
[quote]On Nov 15, 2020, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Dustrod, the observations from life are helpful. It's not about [i]who[/i] but "what/when" things did not go well.

As a group we can learn from examples of what was poorly set up or tried in the wrong context [/quote]



Yeah, for sure!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 20, 2020 04:26PM)
You're in a great position to observe acts. You know the setup at that venue and you see when the audience likes something. And as a student in magic you know enough to see when a trick or idea is falling flat, gets that "yeah so what... maybe some kind applause will get this guy to do something better" reaction.
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Nov 20, 2020 04:39PM)
Yeah I'm pretty fortunate to be in this position. I'm trying to get the most out of it.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Dec 18, 2020 06:06PM)
I would agree with what I took from Ray's and Johnathan's posts: "Perform more; Pontificate less" and "the Audience decides".

many people would disagree with my opinion or taste, and that's how it should be.
Message: Posted by: KungFuMagic (Dec 20, 2020 12:52PM)
Another perspective from a fairly new practitioner of the legerdemain. Magic seems, to me, its most powerful when the "relationship" between performer and audience is well developed. That depends on all sorts of things from venue to magician personality to style of magic to makeup of the audience to type of show to audience expectation. The engagement of an audience in a street/walkup scenario has to be quick, so a Ricky Jay style flowery dissertation has no place. For example. My take is that the presentation has to be an "organic" extension of the magician's personality and style.

Not all that many performers are as compelling as Tomsoni, Teller, or Shin Lim in the silent style. Not a lot of people are too interesting in the "Hey, look at this magic trick out of the blue that has nothing to do with anything else happening around you or me" style. In a show, it seems there is the BIG invitation to the magic, and then smaller invitations to each effect. Magic doesn't simply "happen" so much as it is a miniature relationship that the magician uses as a venue for the miracles. The magic is another party in the relationship .... we have a relationship with our magic, and bring that to the performance. Those who find their voice are more successful in performing WITH the audience for greater impact .... those who don't end up performing AT the audience for, too often, less to disastrous impact. Each magician has to find their authentic voice in performing to each group and with each effect. The engagement of the audience gives greater range to redirect attention and guide their perception of the effect at the right times as well.
Penn performing to a group of people who never heard of him, with just a perfunctory quick setup .... nowhere near the impact he gets doing his thing (them he doesn't do much high traffic busking, either). Right "voice" with the right effect in the right venue in the given moment with the given audience.

Just dumping my thoughts in to the conversations I've been wrestling with this part of my development as I watch more and more recorded performances that appear to be a varying degree of "success". Mostly by audience reactions. Still learning and still watching. This thread has been challenging and stimulating for me.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 20, 2020 06:10PM)
Good Kung. Since one cannot easily assess an audience's experience or appreciation of "strong magic" it may be advisable to start with effects that can test the level of interest, attention, etc. Then the performer should be prepared to shift in several directions, including "stop."

Of course, remember that immediate reaction is not always the best test of a routine.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Dec 21, 2020 06:41AM)
I've never given my magic meaning... never. I don't want anyone thinking; I want them to have fun.
The immediate reaction is all I've cared about.

I want people laughing and clapping.

If they're left pondering their existence, or in a couple of cases making me swear it wasn't the work of the devil... I feel like I've done them a disservice.

Yeah, laughing and clapping is my thing!
"Meaning" is for those mentalists who pretend Cold Reading isn't why they can tell that one out of the 20 people in the audience has a dead grandma.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 21, 2020 08:13AM)
I do not think giving magic meaning is my goal. I do however give it context so it is not just a series of disjointed experiences.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Dec 21, 2020 12:34PM)
Magic is the message.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 21, 2020 12:39PM)
Way back when I started performing magic, I did what most new magicians do: a series of tricks I liked, without any thought into who the audience was, or whether the tricks worked for me, or anything else. Sometimes I used the patter in the instructions and other times I didn't. I tried out a bunch of tricks as I went along, but never gave "meaning" or the audience makeup any thought.

Later, when I started taking magic seriously, I realized that I was developing a specific style and persona that I liked and worked for me, so I began to market to audiences that I thought would like my stuff: adults at company or social functions. Not blue material, just material and delivery that would have probably not been of much interest to kids or family audiences. Even later, when I developed my cards-and-doves act (around the time Channing Pollock was hugely popular), I marketed to very specific audiences too.

So, basically, I tailored my material to specific audiences that I wanted to work for and thought would enjoy it. And it totally worked for me.

Which, incidentally, brings up an "interesting" story. Whenever I mentioned that I didn't do birthday parties, but worked for adults, people invariably asked me if I did blue material. At first it caught me off-guard, and it took a while before I finally figured out how to say I didn't, without lecturing or looking like I was on the defensive. I never did understand that assumption
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 22, 2020 06:26AM)
Art with a message is propaganda and is the most powerful force on the planet.

“No prison can hold me; no hand or leg irons or steel locks can shackle me. No ropes or chains can keep me from my freedom.”

Harry Houdini
Message: Posted by: ChrisPayne (Dec 22, 2020 01:56PM)
[quote]On Dec 22, 2020, tommy wrote:
Art with a message is propaganda and is the most powerful force on the planet.

Can't let that slip by!

"Propaganda" promotes a political or organisational message, with a particular purpose, it may occasionally be artistic. But art with a message usually communicates a particular individual's "take" or view of the world - a quite different thing. The Harry Houdini quote (and his whole appeal) taps into a deep, primal need in the onlooker. In his case the magic is indeed the message.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Dec 22, 2020 04:04PM)
Art with a message is not art. It is propaganda. Art raises questions, it doesn't give answers.
The principles of art can be used to increase the power of a message, but that is not art for it's own sake.

In the same way, magic can be used to deliver a message, but if it does, it is no longer art. Magic for it's own sake is art. Magic in service to some other goal is not.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 22, 2020 07:48PM)
All art is a lie. Does a lie become the truth by carrying a wealthy patron’s message?

Is the Last Supper by Italian artist Leonardo da Vinci a work of art?
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 23, 2020 12:10PM)
"All art is a lie."

Sorry, tommy, but that statement is way too broad and just not accurate.

A lie is a statement (in some form) specifically intended to deceive someone by passing off something untrue as true. We have seen lots of those recently on this side of the Atlantic. And yes we can argue that magic is a lie.

However, art museums all over the world are full of items such as vases, paintings (some of which are commissioned portraits), sculpture, jewelry, furniture, and many other objects that were not intended to deceive anyone. They were put there by curators, academics, and others who are in the art field and consider them to be works of art because they fit a specific set of parameters for what constitutes art.

In the entertainment world, works like movies, TV shows, novels, operas, and similar things are considered art because (if) they meet the same parameters. But they are intended to amuse and entertain people, not to deceive them.

We can think or believe anything we want (we're seeing a lot of that on this side of the Atlantic too), but a broad fit-all statement like "all art is a lie" is just not accurate.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 23, 2020 12:48PM)
Sorry, the 30-minute time limit kicked in and I couldn't edit the above.

Did Leonardo really intend to deceive people into believing that his fresco was a photographic snapshot of the table and the people on the evening portrayed? I don't believe that for a microsecond.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Dec 23, 2020 09:09PM)
Isn't Propaganda a message? I'm not talking about the truth of the message here.
Maybe I'm thinking too much about what these words mean... I have been known to get things wrong. I won't even touch on "art" because no one will agree with me.

"Meaning in magic" [u]to me[/u] seems like the guy using mentalism to get people to believe in god, or whatever.
Whereas the magic I try to do and enjoy watching doesn't try to get you to change anything about yourself, just offering enjoyment and hopefully remembering the experience.

This is Food for Thought after all, and we might try to get to the deeper message... but I want to laugh and clap, be surprised, and baffled watching a magic performance, and I want to MAKE people laugh and clap, be surprised and baffled. I don't feel like there is much meaning there, or a message. Probably not art.

A short escape from reality, that's all.
Message: Posted by: ChrisPayne (Dec 24, 2020 08:47AM)
I think we might be using "meaning" and "message" interchangeably, while there is some overlap, they are quite different. A beautiful sunset, spontaneous act of generosity, uplifting piece of music can all be deeply meaningful but not carry any "message". Astonishing magic has the power to move and be meaningful in it's own right, and for reasons we hardly understand. Tamariz points out that many of the classics of magic are appealing because they tap into universal hopes and longings - quoting the egg bag and ambitious card as examples.
The paradox here is that if we, as performers, try to make this explicit it will likely kill the impact, spectators feel things more strongly when they react emotionally rather than having all of the dots joined for them.
On a more superficial level we need a narrative hook or premise that draws the audience in, engages their interest so that they give their full attention - I see that as a presentational ploy to make the magic engaging, rather than distracting from the core event - the magical experience.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 24, 2020 09:56AM)
In other words, entertainment?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 24, 2020 05:20PM)
Magicians are usually hired to entertain. Reinforcing beliefs, social norms, or political positions [i]through demonstrations managed by trickery[/i] is a different service.

[quote]On Dec 22, 2020, tommy wrote:
Is the Last Supper by Italian artist Leonardo da Vinci a work of art? [/quote] It was a commissioned work. The artist hired to put something decorative in place. The idea of setting a scene so that the viewer is sitting next to the table for those dramatic moments - wow!
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Dec 24, 2020 05:30PM)
[quote]On Dec 24, 2020, George Ledo wrote:
In other words, entertainment? [/quote]


It is more than that. There are two ways for the artist to explore the world of the fantastic and impossible.

One is through the vicarious experience of the impossible. In this, the audience becomes interested in a magical character, such as Peter Pan, and follow his adventures into fantasy worlds. The audience experience the magic vicariously through the eyes of the characters like Wendy or Peter. In narrative presentations, the artist wants to lull the audience into a receptive state--lowering their critical thinking, suspending disbelief, and allowing themselves to experience the impossible in their imaginations. Magic effects might be used to help make the presentation more believable and fantastical. But as Maskelyne and Devant say, the rules of Magic must be sublimated to the Rules of Theater; e.g. the needs of the story. The magic must not take the audience out of their reverie--their imaginary participation in the story.

The second way is for the performer to create the actual experience of the impossible for the audience. This is the way of Magic. In this, the audience is asked to approach the presentation with their critical thinking on alert. A presentation will attempt to prove that the magic is real, creating an argument that the onlookers will find extremely convincing whether presented seriously or tongue in cheek. The audience knows that it is a "play" but can't escape the conviction that the proof of the impossible engenders. They are faced with a dilemma which they can't completely reconcile. It is very much like an actual experience of the impossible.

In Magic, the elements of character and story are meant to serve the needs of the magic. In theater, the magic is meant to serve the needs of the story. Both can be artistic, and can be Art, but it would be difficult to accomplish both in the same presentation--Art can't have two masters.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 24, 2020 08:03PM)
There are those who gamble and there those who make a living from those who gamble.

Today, there are also poker players getting paid as much as $5k to wear a hat.

If you were booked to perform a gambling act on TV and offered $5k to wear this hat, would you?

https://img.i-scmp.com/cdn-cgi/image/fit=contain,width=1098,format=auto/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/images/methode/2017/10/26/efa874ea-b9e7-11e7-affb-32c8d8b6484e_1280x720_090653.JPG?itok=Ngbh4rmD
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 25, 2020 09:33AM)
[quote]On Dec 24, 2020, Pop Haydn wrote:


...In Magic, the elements of character and story are meant to serve the needs of the magic. In theater, the magic is meant to serve the needs of the story. Both can be artistic, and can be Art, but it would be difficult to accomplish both in the same presentation--Art can't have two masters. [/quote]

“But I am the opposite of a stage magician. He gives you illusion that has the appearance of truth. I give you truth in the pleasant disguise of illusion.”

― Tom Wingfield in Tennessee Williams's [i]The Glass Menagerie[/i]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 26, 2020 10:38AM)
In my amateur card guy opinion, the dinosaur bones in the Birmingham museum are not art because nature never lies.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 26, 2020 10:52AM)
On the patter side, the point of telling a lie too incredible to be believed true is to convey to the audience that the lie being told to them is a lie. In so doing, the audience can then appreciate the lie as art, suspend their disbelief, believe true the lie while knowing it isn’t for their amusement and enter into the spirit of the thing.

Then, I think, is the time to use deceptive hidden lies, to make it appear that the evidence being presented in the experiment is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The point of this credible evidence in the experiment is to persuade the audience that the lie that they know is a lie, is true!

In my view, the entertainment does not serve magic or vice versa. I think that the entertainment and the magic are equal and opposite states, that serve one another equally, that when crossed create a moment of equilibrium, a simultaneity of opposites, where the lie and the truth become one.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 26, 2020 11:07AM)
[quote]On Dec 26, 2020, tommy wrote:
In my amateur card guy opinion, the dinosaur bones in the Birmingham museum are not art because nature never lies. [/quote]
Dinosaur bones in museums all over the world are not presented as art. They are presented as real historical objects.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Dec 26, 2020 12:47PM)
Liar:

[img]https://viola.bz/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Protective-Eyes-on-butterfly-wings.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 26, 2020 12:51PM)
So they were not put there by curators, academics, and others who are in the art field and consider them to be works of art because they fit a specific set of parameters for what constitutes art. So what I would like to know, is who put them there?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 26, 2020 01:04PM)
A scorpion, which cannot swim, asks a frog to carry it across a river on the frog's back. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung by the scorpion, but the scorpion argues that if it did that, they would both drown. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I couldn't help it. It's in my nature."


It would not surprise me if was non-other than Pop Haydn, when he passed through Birmingham on his way to Blackpool.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Dec 26, 2020 04:13PM)
Let's not sidetrack into who made the objects presented in Plato's allegorical cave or whether the depiction of dinosaurs is more historical fact or fantasy. Similarly we don't yet need to worry about those who promote art on behalf of museums or invest in artists with an eye on returns. That capital A in art is about the capitalization of art. Different market for selling supplies, lessons, kits, postcards, coffee table books...

I'm still curious about what's been observed to work well in context and what has been tried and failed in context. What bad ideas surprised by working for audiences and what fine ideas have failed due to sound or scale or visibility in the venue?
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Dec 26, 2020 10:36PM)
[quote]On Dec 26, 2020, tommy wrote:
A scorpion, which cannot swim, asks a frog to carry it across a river on the frog's back. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung by the scorpion, but the scorpion argues that if it did that, they would both drown. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I couldn't help it. It's in my nature."


It would not surprise me if was non-other than Pop Haydn, when he passed through Birmingham on his way to Blackpool. [/quote]

That is ridiculous, tommy! Scorpions don't talk.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 27, 2020 04:55AM)
When I visited the Louvre back in 1965 my friend and I got bored/inundated after room after room of art with seemingly little distinction and a droning guide in French I scarcely understood. We noticed that every room had a small fireplace edged with incredible tiles. We back checked a dozen rooms to verify that each room was different in pattern, color, etc. This attracted the attention of a guard and other visitors who also began examining the tiles. A curator arrived and explained that indeed, when the Palace was built each room tile was commissioned to be different and made by dozens of different kilns across France. After that, all of the tourists went to look at tiles along with the pictures on the walls. It is my understanding that an explanation of the tiles was added to the printed guide book.

At what point did these tiles become art? The care of the artisan? The will of the architect? Our noticing their uniqueness? That they are in an art museum? The printing of a brochure? The experience was magical but certainly not magic.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 27, 2020 08:21AM)
The question is, what works; a talking frog or a princess?

A young magician was crossing a road one day when a frog called out to him and said, "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess."

He bent over, picked up the frog and put it in his pocket.

The frog spoke up again and said, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a beautiful princess, I will stay with you for one week."

The young magician took the frog out of his pocket, smiled at it and returned it to his pocket.
The frog then cried out, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a princess, I'll stay with you and do ANYTHING you want."

Again the young magician took the frog out, smiled at it and put it back into his pocket.

Finally, the frog asked, "What is the matter? I've told you I'm a beautiful princess, that I'll stay with you for a week and do anything you want. Why won't you kiss me?"

The young magician said, "Look I'm a magician. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is cool."
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 27, 2020 08:38AM)
The tiles became art when they were created by the arm of man; prior to that, they were nature.
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 27, 2020 09:20AM)
[quote]On Dec 27, 2020, funsway wrote:
At what point did these tiles become art? The care of the artisan? The will of the architect? Our noticing their uniqueness? That they are in an art museum? The printing of a brochure? The experience was magical but certainly not magic. [/quote]
They didn't become art.

Certainly the care of the artisan had to do with their popularity, but they were originally intended to be decorative elements in the palace, and apparently they were. Nothing more.

What most people don't realize is that a huge lot of the people we call "artists" nowadays were considered craftsmen or artisans back in their day. And the vast majority made works on commission, not to hang in a museum. In fact, the word "masterpiece" was originally just that: a work created as proof that a journeyman was ready to become a master and start his own workshop and take apprentices. Kinda along the lines of a master's thesis in a university.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 27, 2020 09:47AM)
What is the difference between a Vase and a Tile in a museum?
Message: Posted by: George Ledo (Dec 27, 2020 12:47PM)
You can think whatever you want to think about a field (art) you obviously don't know anything about. That's your prerogative and I'm okay with it.

I'm done with this thread.

Happy New Year, all.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 27, 2020 11:58PM)
The difference is the tile is an Earthenware tile, dust-pressed body with moulded decoration simulating tube lining in the form of a stylized peacock feather in the Art Nouveau style in bold coloured glazes of yellow, green, blue and brown; Maker's mark on reverse. And the vase is a piece of junk, called modern art, commissioned by the CIA to wind up the Soviet Empire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5YSikO6JRM
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 31, 2020 09:58AM)
If a magician is a man playing the role of a magician, then what is a vase, if it isn’t clay playing the role of a vase?

You know, you really need to understand the word understand to prevent vases and the like fooling you again.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jan 1, 2021 01:03PM)
[quote]On Dec 27, 2020, tommy wrote:
The question is, what works; a talking frog or a princess?

A young magician was crossing a road one day when a frog called out to him and said, "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess."

He bent over, picked up the frog and put it in his pocket.

The frog spoke up again and said, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a beautiful princess, I will stay with you for one week."

The young magician took the frog out of his pocket, smiled at it and returned it to his pocket.
The frog then cried out, "If you kiss me and turn me back into a princess, I'll stay with you and do ANYTHING you want."

Again the young magician took the frog out, smiled at it and put it back into his pocket.

Finally, the frog asked, "What is the matter? I've told you I'm a beautiful princess, that I'll stay with you for a week and do anything you want. Why won't you kiss me?"

The young magician said, "Look I'm a magician. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is cool." [/quote]

Laugh of the day. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Jan 3, 2021 06:25PM)
I too would take a talking frog over a princess any day!
I've watched Shrek, seems like a lot of work. Would I have to babysit the Dragon/donkey babies?

Also, my wife would get jealous.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 3, 2021 07:52PM)
Artless: free from deceit, not artificial; natural.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 3, 2021 08:19PM)
My lord did that joke pop up on Facebook? It is about a billion years old. But I keep seeing people telling it in different places as if it were new.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 4, 2021 04:46AM)
Perhaps, but I would not know since I do not have Facebook.

Art is based on imitation. In the case of the art being an imitation of Art, then spell it with a small case a. But whatever the case may be, always remember, it is the way you tell them lies that really matters.
Message: Posted by: 1KJ (Jan 21, 2021 01:40AM)
This is an old thread, but for anyone who stumbles on it, I would suggest watching the second Dani DaOrtiz penguin Live lecture where he talks about how if you are entertaining, then the audience will enjoy it, and if you aren't entertaining, then they won't. Of course, magic is your vehicle, so you need to be as proficient as you can.

I think that the reason David Blaine was so successful is because of two things:
1. His magic is good., but secondly,
2. He is like watching an anomaly. It's like Zombie magic. He is entertaining like watching a Zombie movie.
Only one of those wouldn't cut it.

I think a better example of an outstanding magician who doesn't have long patter is Jeki Yoo. His magic is phenomenal, AND his personality is HIGHLY entertaining.

So, you don't need long patter, but you must be likeable and skilled.

KJ
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jan 21, 2021 02:10AM)
How does one make him/herself likeable?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 21, 2021 05:40AM)
[quote]On Jan 21, 2021, 1KJ wrote:

1. His magic is good., [/quote]

This is debatable, or at least begs the question, "Relative to what?"

If the objective of "good magic" is to leave the memory "inexplicable - no possible explanation," then the efforts to 'be likable"
or even "to entertain" can work against this goal as being a skill demonstration or allowing a reveal of method (or deliberate).

Or is magic "good" if it produces the desired result of applause, repeat bookings or acclaim?

I will agree that "magical" is often more entertaining the strong magic, but that "ain't good" if it attracts (ed) newbies with a 'buy today, perform tomorrow' attitude.

Some of what Whit does (did) is strong magic and some only magical, but all are entertaining as he presents them -
they may not be with other trying to emulate. Is his character likable? Read his notes on changes over the years.
He can be irritating at times - character and self ;) but his stuff is "good." Magic - not always

opinions, of course, but with greatest respect.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 21, 2021 01:09PM)
[quote]On Jan 21, 2021, Pop Haydn wrote:
How does one make him/herself likeable? [/quote]

Agree with everybody.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jan 21, 2021 03:39PM)
Agree with the audience? About what?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 22, 2021 12:26PM)
Whenever one asks the audience a question one will normally agree with their answer. “There are no more Queens in the deck? Thanks!" "But are we all quite sure that the cards on the table are the four Queens? Please examine them.” "They are the four Queens?”

Ladies and gentlemen, my next trick is called the secret of peace and tranquillity, which is a most unusual trick because we will all know the secret.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jan 22, 2021 12:30PM)
That sort of agreement won't make you "likeable."

My question was serious.

I hear people recommend performers be "likeable" all the time.

What does that mean? How does one go about it?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 22, 2021 01:03PM)
I think it means to trust. Con men win the trust of the victim and people gravitate to people they trust. People are naturally a little anxious of strangers, new performers and so on. They say that one has 30 seconds to win their trust and if one fails it is an uphill battle from there. If one is a well-known performer the audience are not so wary perhaps. Essentially one has to begin well.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 22, 2021 10:12PM)
Thinking about it, I will say that if a magician follows all the rules in the book in Our Magic he is bound to be liked and the more of them there rules that he breaks the more disliked he is bound to be. That is because the rules are designed to help the magician give his audience complete satisfaction, to win both their hearts and minds. Apart from curing sick, I can't what else a magician can do.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jan 23, 2021 01:59AM)
I think a major thing is the magician's attitude toward his work and his audience. What does he want from them? What does he want to give them? He must enjoy what he is doing--fill it with joy.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 23, 2021 06:34AM)
Yes, but a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Attitude is one aspect of our magic but the audience is not going to like one or one’s act just because one has a wonderful attitude. If one or more other aspects are bad it can spoil the whole thing. According to Our Magic, the audience wants entertainment and magic, in other words, they want their hearts minds won. Some call it whole-brain satisfaction. The bosh wins their heart the action wins their mind. How much so depends on how well it is all done. I think you are going soft. The professional wants their money. To get the money you have work hard constantly because you are up against the competition. Some of the competition might not like you. Such is life.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 23, 2021 06:54AM)
"whole-brain" satisfaction! The mind boggles. Folks to day have only half the brain of earlier generations (knowledge, vocabulary, reasoning ability, etc.),
and that half is manipulated by marketers. The old saying, "I have half a mind to ..." is true.

So, does one try and satisfy the half that is there or the half that is missing/sublimated/hiding?

But, I am glad that you know what the audience wants. Studies show they only want what the latest ad pop-up told them to want.
Many in an audience today are there because they are chemically addicted to entertainment.

Me, I'll go and watch Pop because it is joyful and and I like being around fun energy rather than dismal news junk.
Doesn't matter if I like him or not. Nothing to do with winning my mind or heart either.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 23, 2021 12:39PM)
Yes, people, today don’t even know that vases are clay playing the role vases, nor that jewellery is gold and stones, taken from nature, which never lies and fashioned by the arm of man to play the role of jewellery and they think these things do not lie. Some even ask, when did a tile become art? When you tell them, they don't believe you!
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Jan 23, 2021 02:38PM)
[quote]On Jan 23, 2021, tommy wrote:
...taken from nature, which never lies... [/quote]

I know it's been said before, but nature lies all the time.
Manny creatures pretend to be something else. Sometimes to stay alive, sometimes to steal, sometimes to kill.

For instance the larvae of [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_blue]this butterfly[/url]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 23, 2021 06:59PM)
It has been said before:

"Unlike people, nature never lies."

- Dr Yanagimachi

Awards and honors:

Fulbright Scholarship, USA-Japan, 1960 and 1964
Lalor Foundation Scholarship, USA, 1964-1966.
Zoological Society Prize, Japan, 1977
Research Award, Society for Study of Reproduction, USA, 1982
University of Hawaii Regents' Medal for Excellence in Research, USA, 1988
Recognition Award, Serono Symposia, USA, 1989
Marshall Medal, Society for the Study of Fertility, UK,1994
International Prize for Biology, Japan, 1996
Honorable Degree of Philosophy from the University of Rome, Italy, 1997
Distinguished Andrologist Award, American Society of Andrology, USA, 1998
Induction to the Polish Academy of Sciences, Poland, 1998
Carl G. Hartman Award, Society for the Study of Reproduction, USA, 1999
Honorable Degree of Philosophy, University of Pavia, Italy, 1999
Honorary Member, European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology, 1999
Pioneer Award, International Embryo Transfer Society, 2000
Induction to the National Academy of Sciences, USA, 2001
Honrable Degree of Philosophy, Hokkaido University, Japan, 2002
Induction to Hall of Honor, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, USA, 2003
Donald Henry Barron Lecture, University of Florida, USA, 2003
Pioneer Award in Reproduction Research, USA, 2012
Lifetime Achievement Award, Society of Reproductive Biologists and Technologists, USA, 2014

https://manoa.hawaii.edu/kaunana/uhms-ryuzo-yanagimachi-unlike-people-nature-never-lies/
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Jan 23, 2021 07:08PM)
Unlike Dr Yanagimachi, nature never lies.
Haha, just kidding

Tommy, I've been reading Our Magic on your recommendation. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Jan 23, 2021 11:01PM)
Nature does lie though. The link I offered proves undisputedly so. The grub -that is NOT an ant- smells like an ant, and even makes noises like the queen so it will get preferential treatment and be fed by or feed on the ants.
That's not the only example. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photuris]"imitating the light signals of other firefly species' females to attract, kill, and eat the males."[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown-headed_cowbird]"lays its eggs in the nests of other small birds, The young cowbird is fed by the host parents at the expense of their own young."[/url]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuttlefish]"smaller cuttlefish use their camouflage abilities to disguise themselves as a female cuttlefish. Changing their body color, and even pretending to be holding an egg sack, disguised males are able to swim past the larger guard male and mate with the female"[/url]

I mean, if it were a person doing it it would undisputedly be dishonest.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 24, 2021 03:34AM)
It is interesting to me how different folks interpret the word/concept "lie"

are deceptions and camouflage a "lie" or a special truth? Is wearing makeup a lie or establishing a new truth? A push-up bra?

As a magician I never lie. I tell my audience I am going to demonstrate something considered impossible using guile, artifice and trickery - then do exactly that.
I may be the most truthful person they encounter all day compared with politicians, ministers, accountants, doctors, etc.

As a sales person/trainer I never lied about a product or service, but was expert and creating new truths.

I used to be very good at knowing when a person was lying in a conversation. Today I hope I can tell when they are telling the truth.

Thus, in a sense all of the post above are equivocating on what "lie" means as related to truth, honesty, accuracy or intent.

Even saying that nature "lies" or does not "lie" is a false statement since nature does not "do" anything.
Anthropomorphizing creates an illusion or reality that is interesting and impactful but certainly false. Is it a lie? I think not since the illusion is obvious and the intent benign.

If I say that a tree told me it would snow tomorrow, am I lying, delusional, confused or describing a truth you might not understand?
If, because of my statement, you go shopping today rather than tomorrow as planned, are you lying to yourself or open to "natures's truth?"

When a doctor give a placebo to a dying patient it is a lie and of questionable ethics.
If I keep an accident victim from going into shock by lying about his dead wife, it is falsehood but ethically sound and even necessary. I would not feel "dishonest."

A recent university study of squirrel behavior shows that they a expert in deception, misdirection, palming, false loads and more - all the sleights/action C&B performers are proud of.
Now, any magician claiming to have invented such a move or that C&B evolved from a shell game is lying. But, they don't know any better so they are not - maybe.

When the students give the squirrel a nut, observe where it is hidden and then steal it - they are creating a lie far worse than any deception of the squirrel;
but that is just an opinion about the importance of truth in scientific testing.

My wife thinks I am up at 4AM working on a novel. I had better get back to bed before she catches my in a lie.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2021 06:01AM)
Misleading by "telling the truth" is today called: paltering.

https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-pspi0000081.pdf
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2021 08:04AM)
Anything artificial, art, for example, is made by the arm of man, that is where art comes from. Artists take materials from nature, that which is and fashion them to play the role of something which they are not. Nature never lies, there are no contradictions in nature, it is simply that which it is. We do however run into, misinterpretations of our observations. You might see a stick insect and mistake it for a stick but that is your problem. A stick insect is still a stick insect and a stick is still a stick, regardless of what you or anything else thinks. It is a natural phenomenon like a mirage is a natural phenomenon and a mirage can promise you the earth the stars and the moon if you misinterpret your observations of what it is. If you mistake a cow for a horse it does not follow that the cow is a liar. A black cat is black because it hunts at night - that is its nature.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 24, 2021 11:31AM)
A Merlin Hawk is a successful hunter because it can mimic the flight pattern, wing movements and cry of different bird species
considered "non-threatening" to the target birds. It does not change its coloring or shape. Instead it lies.
It pretends to be something it is not just to get close to its prey. Kind of like on-line dating ;)

Amazingly, it can mimic birds never seen when moved to a new environment. Instinct? How? Telepathic? Maybe.
Regardless, it deliberately sends a false message about what it is for the purpose of gaining an advantage - a lie.
It also chooses which lie to tell according to the species it hunts. It does not just mimic other birds near by.

Thus, it does not learn to lie from observing other birds. Lying (deliberate falsehood to gain advantage) is its nature.

I don't know about its mating habits. Perhaps there it tells the truth.

There are insect species that lie as well - deliberately sending out false messages of identity or purpose by use of sound, sent and energy pulses.

Yes, it is its nature to hunt other birds to survive. It has developed the
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2021 01:30PM)
Monkey see monkey do is a pidgin-style saying that appeared in American culture in the early 1920s. The Merlin Hawk naturally mimics other birds for its amusement and the other birds observe this and misinterpret their observation and as a result, they get killed. Such is life. :)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 24, 2021 04:15PM)
Amazing conclusion or projection, tommy. So you don't think a bird is capable of lying, but do think it can mimic birds it has never seen for amusement.

How does it know which mimicry will most amuse the birds? Lying is easier than thinking. That is why people do it to.
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Jan 24, 2021 07:01PM)
Honestly I don't even know why I chimed in, besides my own arrogance... maybe the misguided belief I'll change an opinion. What does that accomplish?

It doesn't matter even slightly! Nature does what it does and has done for a long time, and we can call it whatever we call it.

Philosophy appears to be a largely human thing, Tardigrades will probably outlive it.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 24, 2021 07:56PM)
...in circuit lies? paltering :(

[quote]
Tell all the truth but tell it slant —
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind — [/quote] [url=https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/56824/tell-all-the-truth-but-tell-it-slant-1263]Dickenson[/url]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2021 08:32PM)
Some birds are pretty good Parrots.

If you teach a parrot to tell a lie, tell me, is it lying?
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 24, 2021 09:33PM)
I personally think that wether there is a patter or not, wether there is a presentation or not, there allways is.

If Shin Lim, for example, makes a trick and uses music, and gestures and faces, instead of words, then that's the presentation.
The same applies for any act of magic.

Magic, I think, is a subgenre of theatre, where the narrative is: there is a problem, the magician resolves it.

How you present the problem? Silent? Wiht music? With just some words? With some witty comedic lines? that's all presentation...

How do you resolve the problem? With a wand? With a gesture? With some hocus pocus? that's all presentation too...

It was a long time ago since I posted, well, here I am, again...
Cristóbal
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 24, 2021 09:44PM)
[quote]On Dec 22, 2020, Pop Haydn wrote:
Art with a message is not art. It is propaganda. Art raises questions, it doesn't give answers.
The principles of art can be used to increase the power of a message, but that is not art for it's own sake.

In the same way, magic can be used to deliver a message, but if it does, it is no longer art. Magic for it's own sake is art. Magic in service to some other goal is not. [/quote]

I do not quite sure agree with you here Pop.
Do you know what art is? Not rethorical, but real question. At least I don't.
I must admit that when someone uses art and leaves a message I normally think that it is kinda worthless, as that would suit much better a non fiction book where you can theorize about whatever as long as you want.
Now, that I don't like it doesn't mean it isn't art.
I think that one shouldnt limit art, or what it can be. After all, havent revolutions, on any discipline, been a breaking of the limits?
doesn't art happens when the viewer appreciates the experience as art?

Cheers to all
Its fun posting again ;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2021 05:35AM)
The reason the propagandist embeds his message into art is that nobody questions fiction; the art carries the message to the subconscious, bypassing the rational faculties, which have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment side of our magic is fiction/art which bypasses the rational faculties that have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment speaks to the subconscious, to the heart, as opposed to the head; the irrational right hemisphere of the brain. That satisfies that half of the brain only. The other half, the rational left half of the brain, the heart, is satisfied when the magician offers the facts of the experiment. Thus, the whole brain is satisfied, hearts and minds have been won, simply by perfuming magic in the usual manner. i.e., with patter and an experiment.

If you want to put a message in our magic then put it into the entertainment side where it gets through to the heart. I am not a mentalist but it seems to me, that a mentalist understanding how this works might use it to embed a message into the patter to get it into the subconscious for the purpose of a trick. Darren Brown has probably already done this.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2021 09:25AM)
[quote]On Jan 23, 2021, funsway wrote:
"whole-brain" satisfaction! The mind boggles. Folks to day have only half the brain of earlier generations (knowledge, vocabulary, reasoning ability, etc.),
and that half is manipulated by marketers. The old saying, "I have half a mind to ..." is true. [/quote]


One cannot rationally determine that folks today do not have the faculty of reason because such a statement is an obvious contradiction. If folks today, like you, lack the power of reason, then folks today, like you, can make no rational criticisms.

And, as Ayn Rand wrote, there are no contradictions in nature.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jan 25, 2021 12:01PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2021, tommy wrote:
And, as Ayn Rand wrote, there are no contradictions in nature. [/quote]

Ayn Rand was wrong. How about the rattlesnake with poisonous fangs on one end and a warning rattle on the other? ;)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 25, 2021 12:08PM)
Why in the world would you say "like you". Did I step on your toes or something?

I did not say that people today do not have the faculty to reason, so you told a lie.

But yes, scientific studies can determine the relative brain activity in various age cohorts
as to the functions of the orbital cortex in sending message to the higher reasoning areas.

It is lower for those who rely on vicarious input form sources like TV and Internet than those who read books and newspaper.

Reasoning ability does not guarantee better decisions, however, since the validity of the input data is questionable in either case.

A study in 2019 of college students showed they had half of the critical reasoning capacity of a college graduate in 1960.

One might argue they don't need it since anything can be found on the Internet if truth is not a standard.

SAT tests dropped short answers in favor of multiple choice because of complaints over having to think and reason.

Ayn Rand wrote fiction, which may not be lies but is certainly other than truth. So, she offers opinions, just like you and me.

One could view that every DNA action is based on a contradiction as each either creates or destroys a water molecule,
and there chain is held together by a hydrogen bond where hydrogen can't bond with anything. The mysterious energy shifts
cannot be explained rationally, so scientists made up a convenient lie to explain it. But, it can't be a lie
since everyone agrees to the fiction rather than say, "I don't know." Another contradiction.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2021 01:40PM)
You said folks today and going by the date of your post and the absurdity of it you are one of them.
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 25, 2021 03:39PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2021, tommy wrote:
The reason the propagandist embeds his message into art is that nobody questions fiction; the art carries the message to the subconscious, bypassing the rational faculties, which have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment side of our magic is fiction/art which bypasses the rational faculties that have been suspended to allow the fiction.

The entertainment speaks to the subconscious, to the heart, as opposed to the head; the irrational right hemisphere of the brain. That satisfies that half of the brain only. The other half, the rational left half of the brain, the heart, is satisfied when the magician offers the facts of the experiment. Thus, the whole brain is satisfied, hearts and minds have been won, simply by perfuming magic in the usual manner. i.e., with patter and an experiment.

If you want to put a message in our magic then put it into the entertainment side where it gets through to the heart. I am not a mentalist but it seems to me, that a mentalist understanding how this works might use it to embed a message into the patter to get it into the subconscious for the purpose of a trick. Darren Brown has probably already done this. [/quote]

OK Freud.

Shall you share some sources to support this ideas?
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 25, 2021 03:41PM)
About nature.

I don't get the idea.

Humans are nature, why do you see nature outside of human beings?

Like we were some robots, or machines made by x guy. Which is possible, but then our surroundings are too.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2021 05:51PM)
Read my nephew’s book:

https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9780970312594?gC=5a105e8b&gclid=CjwKCAiA9bmABhBbEiwASb35V3ZWZj1p12KoTVKPv58Yn_NMIJVIz7xY1FiFHPtl1KBj-_7QSWdyURoC_aYQAvD_BwE
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2021 08:52PM)
A magician is a man playing the role of a magician.

The man is nature and so the man is not a lie.

The magician is created by the arm of man, and it is a lie, an artificial, fictional character.

Do you follow?
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 25, 2021 09:33PM)
Then, how would you define nature?
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 25, 2021 09:36PM)
[quote]On Jan 25, 2021, tommy wrote:
Read my nephew’s book:

https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9780970312594?gC=5a105e8b&gclid=CjwKCAiA9bmABhBbEiwASb35V3ZWZj1p12KoTVKPv58Yn_NMIJVIz7xY1FiFHPtl1KBj-_7QSWdyURoC_aYQAvD_BwE [/quote]

Interesting, the dude who teached woman to smoke, Ill read it.
Now, an acclaration, maybe his methods worked, but I must say that a lot of this psychoanalytical theory is dismissed in todays science.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 26, 2021 05:06AM)
The audience demands both entertainment and magic. To satisfy both the unconscious and conscious mind of the audience, the magician has to give them an equal amount of both Entertainment and Magic. The reason the audience demand both entertainment and magic is that the right hemisphere of the brain, the unconscious mind, is irrational and the left hemisphere of the brain, the conscious mind, is rational. Entertainment is what the audience wants while magic is what the audience needs. To sell an act to a client, appeal to the unconscious mind, as recommended by my nephew. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 26, 2021 01:19PM)
[quote]On Jan 26, 2021, tommy wrote:
The audience demands both entertainment and magic. To satisfy both the unconscious and conscious mind of the audience, the magician has to give them an equal amount of both Entertainment and Magic. The reason the audience demand both entertainment and magic is that the right hemisphere of the brain, the unconscious mind, is irrational and the left hemisphere of the brain, the conscious mind, is rational. Entertainment is what the audience wants while magic is what the audience needs. To sell an act to a client, appeal to the unconscious mind, as recommended by my nephew. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s [/quote]

Are you a scientist or something?

As Im very interested in psychonalysis, but I understand that it is pretty much dismissed in todays science, obviously not its contributions, but there is been, by what I know, major advancements on it.
It appears that you talk as some expert on pseudoscience, Id advise you to read more.

Warm wishes
Message: Posted by: markmagic (Jan 26, 2021 01:40PM)
I do lots of repeat dates, county fairs in Kentucky. One fair I have performed weekly at for 20 years and running. One of the committee members once told me why they kept hiring me back. He said "you are approachable and the audience sees you as one of them. You're not dressed in a tuxedo and everyone has a good time." I try to make the patter relate to my audience. I talk about my "trouble with women, divorce, and my childhood. Stories everyone can relate to. I believe the magic has to be good, but the story has to be better than good.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 26, 2021 09:04PM)
I am not a scientist or something. I host gambling parties for a living and as we say in the fraternity; take my advice and do as you please.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 26, 2021 10:40PM)
"Patter" normally relates to the effect that one is about to perform. Much like the set-up line of a joke that relates to the punch-line. Normally the magician, with what we call patter, first makes an incredible assertion and then he proceeds to prove that assertion true with an experiment. i.e.

"Ladies and Gentlemen. It is a fact well known to archaeologists that many very wonderful arts which were possessed by the ancients have, through the course of ages, been completely lost to modern civilization. Prominent among these superior accomplishments was the mysterious power of divining the presence of water or metals that lay hidden far under the ground. Now it may be that the assertion I am about to make will be received by you with polite but none the less absolute incredulity; but it has been my very great good fortune to discover, by the merest accident, the underlying principle of this lost art, and I have mapped out a plan of experiment and study that will in time, I trust, enable me to give once more to the world complete and scientific data for positively ascertaining the immediate whereabouts of such metals as gold, silver or copper by a process as simple as the waving of a willow wand over the prospected area."

"I do not myself as yet fully understand the exact nature of the power I have stumbled upon, but I know it to be a sort of magnetic or sympathetic attraction, and I shall illustrate to you the principle involved by experimenting with a deck of cards."

S.W.E. 1902

The above patter might have also related to the audience of the time, who might well have been gold prospectors. Back then there was a relationship between prospectors and cardsharps; they gave the miners a way to spend their money.
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 27, 2021 04:59PM)
[quote]On Jan 26, 2021, tommy wrote:
I am not a scientist or something. I host gambling parties for a living and as we say in the fraternity; take my advice and do as you please. [/quote]

Look, man, the only thing Im saying is that it would not make any harm if you included: by what I know...

Cheers!
Message: Posted by: weirdwizardx (Jan 27, 2021 05:01PM)
By the way, I find it rather very interesting that you have this whole theory behind your effects.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 27, 2021 05:36PM)
Know thy self.