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Topic: Deluxe Linking Rings by Michael Ammar & TCC
Message: Posted by: TCC Magic (Oct 16, 2020 08:00AM)
Hello friends,

We are honored to announce our New Project, a collaboration with the legendary Michael Ammar. We present the Deluxe Linking Rings.

What we are presenting to you is not just a set of Linking Rings, but the accumulation of the meticulous process in crafting a set of exquisite Rings; Michael Ammar's passion for the Linking Rings; as well as his 40 years of knowledge and experience on the subject.

Probably the 2 greatest classics in the world of magic, are the Cups and Balls and the Linking Rings. Magicians should learn as much about them as possible from the greatest living source of magic knowledge.

Michael Ammar is recognized as one of the greatest living magicians and one of the most influential magicians of our time.

Through numerous consultations and back and forth with Michael Ammar for the past 12 months, we have produced what we believe will be the go-to set of Linking Rings going forward. No matter if you are a magic enthusiast or professional performer, this set will suit the majority of your needs.

Every aspect of the Rings, from the diameter, thickness, weight, sound, even down to the carrying bag, has been meticulously thought out.

And probably the best, most affordable 12 inch Linking Rings you will ever see.

I think you will love it.

In addition, Michael Ammar has graciously included a 60-90 Minute 1 to 1 Private Online Session (only limited to 40 People. This is a chance to have Michael answer your personal, specific questions about the performance of this classic of magic.

Available on Kickstarter on 21st OCT, 11 p.m. EST.

Details in the preview link below. Follow the project and to be the first to know of the latest developments:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192168930/862993077?ref=3vd0a6&token=56d98091
Message: Posted by: the_man_who_knows (Oct 16, 2020 10:11AM)
Brah, they be skinnier than tom elderfield
Message: Posted by: skyfire (Oct 20, 2020 07:37PM)
Not sure if I missed it on the website, but what are the spec's on these Rings. What I saw was kind of vague, by saying they are just the right size, just the right circumference, just the right Diameter. They look really nice, and personally I have some TCC Rings already, and every set I got from them was really nice, and all happy purchases, but right now the Diameter, and Circumference is what's going to make me pull the trigger if I can find that out. (It's going to be embarrassing if those measurements are in big bold letters and I didn't see them).

Thanks to whomever can answer...
Message: Posted by: videoman (Oct 20, 2020 09:27PM)
They’re 12” rings, and yes it does say that in pretty large letters on the second line.
However, I did not see a thickness listed.
Message: Posted by: skyfire (Oct 20, 2020 09:32PM)
Thanks Video Man
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Oct 20, 2020 11:53PM)
A five-ring set? Perhaps good for Ammar's routine, but not Vernon's, which is a six-ring routine.
Message: Posted by: Carnac (Oct 21, 2020 09:44AM)
There is a place to order any additional combinations of rings that you may need. 😎👍
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Oct 21, 2020 09:56AM)
[quote] On Oct 21, 2020, Carnac wrote:
There is a place to order any additional combinations of rings that you may need. [/quote]

Good deal.
Message: Posted by: TCC Magic (Oct 21, 2020 06:45PM)
The Campaign is live.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1192168930/deluxe-linking-rings-by-michael-ammar-and-tcc?ref=6oet2f
Message: Posted by: TCC Magic (Oct 21, 2020 06:58PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, skyfire wrote:
Not sure if I missed it on the website, but what are the spec's on these Rings. What I saw was kind of vague, by saying they are just the right size, just the right circumference, just the right Diameter. They look really nice, and personally I have some TCC Rings already, and every set I got from them was really nice, and all happy purchases, but right now the Diameter, and Circumference is what's going to make me pull the trigger if I can find that out. (It's going to be embarrassing if those measurements are in big bold letters and I didn't see them).

Thanks to whomever can answer... [/quote]


Thickness: 1cm (~0.39 inches)
Weight: 0.2kg (~7ounces)
Message: Posted by: TCC Magic (Oct 21, 2020 09:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2020, Ray Haining wrote:
A five-ring set? Perhaps good for Ammar's routine, but not Vernon's, which is a six-ring routine. [/quote]

The 5 Ring set is suitable if you perform a routine similar to Pop Haydn (You will have a spare single) :).

You can leave us a message on KS if you want to change the combination of the rings (e.g. 5 Ring set -->Key, Single, Chain of 3) then add on another single.
Message: Posted by: Jonmaddgician (Oct 22, 2020 12:03AM)
Being primarily a close-up magician, I was never really interested in linking rings. Until I met Shoot Ogawa once at a magic workshop, & was convinced to pick up a set of Ninja Rings. They are now my daily carry for a gig as they fit nicely in my inside jacket pocket (with an invisible deck in the other inside pocket), even if I don't really use them much. Occasionally I use them for the few stage shows I've started not being able to refuse, & I'm thinking perhaps it's time to upgrade to stage rings for stage appearances...

My question was going to be if the 8 ring set was worth getting, if my routine has mostly been based off the Ninja 4 ring set? I've always appreciated having a spare single ring to switch in for examination, so the 5 set seems like a perfect setup. However, I am also wondering if I should get the 8 set & learn the full routine again from scratch?

Any ring workers opinions please, & cheers!
Message: Posted by: dyoung (Oct 22, 2020 06:11PM)
I don't do stage rings, but I have TCC's small set, which I really like. And TCC have really been on a roll lately with quality products at great prices. So I'm sure this won't disappoint!
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Oct 22, 2020 07:21PM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2020, Jonmaddgician wrote:
Being primarily a close-up magician, I was never really interested in linking rings. Until I met Shoot Ogawa once at a magic workshop, & was convinced to pick up a set of Ninja Rings. They are now my daily carry for a gig as they fit nicely in my inside jacket pocket (with an invisible deck in the other inside pocket), even if I don't really use them much. Occasionally I use them for the few stage shows I've started not being able to refuse, & I'm thinking perhaps it's time to upgrade to stage rings for stage appearances...

My question was going to be if the 8 ring set was worth getting, if my routine has mostly been based off the Ninja 4 ring set? I've always appreciated having a spare single ring to switch in for examination, so the 5 set seems like a perfect setup. However, I am also wondering if I should get the 8 set & learn the full routine again from scratch?

Any ring workers opinions please, & cheers! [/quote]


Do note that the handling of the 'stage' sized rings will be completely different from the close-up rings. So, you'd most likely be learning from scratch IMO. The good thing about the rings is that once you get the basics down, you can come up with your own routine with any type of ring combinations you'd like.

Levent had the most comprehensive DVD set on the linking rings that I know of. check it out too.
Message: Posted by: Julie (Oct 22, 2020 07:31PM)
Chinese Linking Rings made in China :)
Message: Posted by: Carnac (Jan 31, 2021 12:48PM)
Mmmmmm...... the rings are finished. They are sending them from China soon. Will post a review after I get to play with them.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Jan 31, 2021 04:19PM)
Here are the specs on this set from the Kickstarter site. The thickness is 1 centimeter which is the equivalent of 25/64, right between a quarter and half and inch:

Material: Stainless steel (Hollow)

Diameter: 30cm (~12 inches)

Inside Diameter: 28cm (~11 inches)

Thickness: 1cm (~0.4 inches)

Weight: 0.2 kg (~7 ounces)
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Jan 31, 2021 07:09PM)
As comparison, my Owen Magic Supreme 12" rings are:

Material: Stainless Steel (Hollow)

Outside Diameter: 30.6 cm (12.04 inches)

Inside Diameter: 28.65 cm (11.28 inches)

Thickness: 95 mm (0.37 inches)

Weight (of a single ring): 0.225 kg (7.9 oz)


The comparison could suggest that the stainless steel wall thickness of Owen Rings might be slightly thicker. Or, the little bit of extra weight might be because the Owen Rings are slightly larger.

All in all, it appears the TCC rings compare nicely to the Owen Rings as far as specifications go. But how do the welds look? I have a set of 12" hollow stainless steel rings from China and the welds are nice, but not as close to perfection as the Owen Rings.

But then, my set from China cost 1/4 the price of the Owen Rings.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Jan 31, 2021 10:08PM)
According to TCC the rings are on their way. Until they arrive on our front porches, the comparisons will have to wait. Ammar was the consultant behind this Kickstarter campaign and he had a lot of input. His name is behind this product which leads me to believe he's on top of quality control.

Mark--is that 95mm correct? One centimeter is ten millimeters.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 1, 2021 12:19AM)
Missed a decimal. 9.5 mm thickness on the Owen rings. It’s probably closer to 9.6 or 9.7, I eyeballed it against a ruler.

Mark
Message: Posted by: e-man (Feb 3, 2021 01:22AM)
Prop : Joe Proper locking Rings
Routine : Chriss Capehart 3 Ring Routine Tannens Stars of Magic
Only my thoughts.Of Course...Perhaps Darren Browns as well. :birthday:
I love ALL of you
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 7, 2021 02:51PM)
Hi,

my rings arrived yesterday. They look very beautiful, the weight is good and the sound ok. But the quality of the key ring is definately not ‚deluxe‘.
I doubt that Michael Ammar would be satisfied with the key ring.

Best, Clemens
Message: Posted by: rhettbryson (Feb 7, 2021 03:08PM)
What, might I ask, was the defect in the key ring?
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 7, 2021 03:16PM)
Hi Rhett,


The ends in the opening were only welded with two caps. But there are still small gaps. The crash link is therefore not working optimally.

Best, Clemens
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 7, 2021 03:23PM)
Hope you can see it in the picture
Message: Posted by: rhettbryson (Feb 7, 2021 04:13PM)
That looks VERY unfinished - disappointing for sure.
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 7, 2021 04:42PM)
I wrote to Jack Wu from TCC and sent him the same picture. I will give you an update when he responds.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Feb 7, 2021 05:01PM)
I haven’t received mine yet but that does not look great.
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Feb 7, 2021 06:32PM)
[quote]On Feb 7, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Hope you can see it in the picture [/quote]

Yes, this part of the ring that no one will ever see doesn’t look so great.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Feb 7, 2021 10:05PM)
Agreed that it’s an unseen part and f the ring. Possible that a step in the end cap could cause some magic bes to be less smooth and perhaps talk when they shouldn’t
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 7, 2021 10:35PM)
For reference... Owen Rings don't have a cap on the ends of the key ring. Rather, the Owen Rings have a plug that is the diameter of the center of the hollow stainless steel. The face of the plug is completely flush with the cut and it is cleanly welded in 3 spots on the face of the end of the cut and then everything is polished. It is very clean and smooth.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Mac_Stone (Feb 8, 2021 04:51AM)
How much do those rings cost Mark?
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 8, 2021 08:05AM)
Jack answered me and complained about this. He will talk to bis team an they try to get a new key ring for me. So far so good.
Since they have holidays in China right now I have to wait a little. I will keep you updated.

Have a nice week! Clemens
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 8, 2021 11:18AM)
[quote]On Feb 8, 2021, Mac_Stone wrote:
How much do those rings cost Mark? [/quote]

The last linking ring sets Owen sold before going out of business were in the $900 to $1,000 dollar range. You had to purchase the complete eight ring set.
Message: Posted by: rhettbryson (Feb 9, 2021 03:42PM)
Is anybody else as disappointed as I am with the quality of the instructional video? The sound is terrible. Michael’s instruction and the clever idea of covering the rings with different colors is a good idea but it only covers one routine. I would’ve thought it was going to be more comprehensive than that and show some real basic handling of the rings . It’s not that I don’t know how to do the rings of course I do but I thought Michael would show us some more unusual moves and routine possibilities. I have yet to get my rings but I have looked at the video.
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 9, 2021 04:30PM)
[quote]On Feb 9, 2021, rhettbryson wrote:
Is anybody else as disappointed as I am with the quality of the instructional video? The sound is terrible. Michael’s instruction and the clever idea of covering the rings with different colors is a good idea but it only covers one routine. I would’ve thought it was going to be more comprehensive than that and show some real basic handling of the rings . It’s not that I don’t know how to do the rings of course I do but I thought Michael would show us some more unusual moves and routine possibilities. I have yet to get my rings but I have looked at the video. [/quote]

I agree 100 %!! The quality is really bad.
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Feb 10, 2021 03:48PM)
[quote]On Feb 8, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Jack answered me and complained about this. He will talk to bis team an they try to get a new key ring for me. So far so good.
Since they have holidays in China right now I have to wait a little. I will keep you updated.

Have a nice week! Clemens [/quote]

Keep us updated if they do replace it as previous faults in their productions have been answered by "you can fix it yourself" rather than replacement.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Feb 11, 2021 03:31PM)
I got my rings. I think they’re fine. The end cap is on more cleanly than the one shown above. I think I have seen Owens rings at a convention with a special Owens display. You would not mistake these for Owens rings but if you want large, hollow, noisy rings that don’t break the bank to do Pop Hadyn or Chris Capeharts routine I think you will be satisfied.
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Feb 11, 2021 05:57PM)
Anyone have a set of Mikame Rings to compare? On first glance, these reminded me of Mikames.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 12, 2021 06:58AM)
[quote]On Feb 11, 2021, Xcath1 wrote:
I got my rings. I think they’re fine. The end cap is on more cleanly than the one shown above. I think I have seen Owens rings at a convention with a special Owens display. You would not mistake these for Owens rings but if you want large, hollow, noisy rings that don’t break the bank to do Pop Hadyn or Chris Capeharts routine I think you will be satisfied. [/quote]

Thanks for the mini review Xcath. The option of obtaining a set of 12 inch Owen rings is no longer on the table. At this point, the only way of purchasing a nice 12 inch set is Proline and this TCC set.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Feb 12, 2021 07:32AM)
Good point. I can’t compare with ProLine.
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 12, 2021 05:39PM)
Xcath1,

did you mesure your rings? Mine are 11 inch instead of 12. When we asked TCC they answered that Michael Ammar changed the size. But they never informed the Customers.
Would be very interesting how big your rings really are.

Best, Clemens
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 12, 2021 06:50PM)
[quote]On Feb 12, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Xcath1,

did you mesure your rings? Mine are 11 inch instead of 12. When we asked TCC they answered that Michael Ammar changed the size. But they never informed the Customers.
Would be very interesting how big your rings really are.

Best, Clemens [/quote]

Holy bait and switch, Batman!

Mark
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Feb 12, 2021 10:21PM)
I did measure. I could
Message: Posted by: kipling100 (Feb 13, 2021 10:52AM)
Note the gap is very large as well, which may be a deal breaker if you’re used to 1 inch gaps or have smaller hands. Also, not sure if this is normal but the key ring is a bit oval and not completely circular. Mine also has the unfinished key caps shown in the earlier posts.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Feb 13, 2021 01:43PM)
These are sounding less and less like they are “Deluxe”.
But of course that has become a meaningless marketing term anyway.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 13, 2021 02:19PM)
It appears that the letdown here is the key ring. Let's see if TCC decides to make good on it. Haven't read a complaint about the rest of the set. Are there weld spots? Are the rings smooth?
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 13, 2021 02:48PM)
[quote]On Feb 13, 2021, kipling100 wrote:
Also, not sure if this is normal but the key ring is a bit oval and not completely circular. [/quote]

That would suggest that the key ring was originally exactly the same size as the other rings. Then instead of cutting out a section of the ring (to create the gap), they simply separated the two ends and, thus, made the key ring not only a little larger but gave it a little bit of an oval shape in the process.

It would be interesting to see a photo of the key ring lined up on top of a single ring.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 14, 2021 02:29PM)
Mark,

my key ring is absolutely the same size like the single ring.(11 inch) The opening is definitely cut out.
I only criticize the quality of the caps in the key ring but wait for a replacement by TCC.
Everything is absolut fine with the set. I will send some pictures in the next days. Axel Hecklau borrowed my set to do a review.
It will be back in the next days.

Clemens
Message: Posted by: kipling100 (Feb 14, 2021 06:45PM)
(Edited) Trying to post a picture of the key on top of a single, but not sure how.
Message: Posted by: Futureal (Feb 14, 2021 06:58PM)
They confirmed in the Facebook group that the rings were smaller than 12 inch and then deleted the guys post, like they didn’t want people to know. Very strange.
Message: Posted by: allan31 (Feb 15, 2021 01:36AM)
If you buy a 12" ring , you don't have to recieve a 11" one !!! And on the top of that, there is a problem with the caps on the key ring !!! Are you really going to accept everything and not ask for a refund ? We, as customers, should not accept all these BS products put on the market every day...
Message: Posted by: rhettbryson (Feb 15, 2021 04:20AM)
I thought I would weigh in on this topic thread. I have received my non-advertised reduced size rings. I have the sloppy key cap on my rings -Uupsetting. I do NOT like at all the size of the HUGE key ring gap. Impossible to hide it and the handling is very awkward. I realize it likely was designed to go with Michael's routine but it is completely wrong for me. I despair that I will not be able to flex the ring and close it up properly. I have already offered my low opinion of the teaching video with its truncated instruction and very poor sound quality.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 15, 2021 09:08AM)
The width of the gap in my Owen key ring (and the key on the older China-made set that I have) is adjustable. You simply pull the ends away from each other, gently, with just enough force to cause movement, to widen the gap. Do the reverse (again, gently, with only enough force to cause movement) to close the gap.

I suspect the same can be done with the TCC rings. DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Carnac (Feb 15, 2021 12:46PM)
I wanted to give a review of the new rings. They took 2 days to get from China to New York City. And they’ve been sitting there for over 2 weeks now. I only live 60 miles from NYC. I wish I could just there and take them. Who knows how long they will sit in some warehouse. Grrrr!! 😫
Message: Posted by: rhettbryson (Feb 15, 2021 03:57PM)
Mark - the key. ring would have to be flexed a GREAT deal to narrow the gap satisfactorily for the way I like to handle them. I do worry about either distorting them or possibly snapping them (as they are hollow.)

I have a set of Featherlite rings from Abbotts that I have been using for over 30 years. They are 10" and I thought the promise of the TCC high quality plus the 12" size might be a suitable upgrade for me to use - guess NOT! Wrong on several counts. I have had fine things to say about other of the TCC products - all of which I have completely liked. These rings are the exception.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 15, 2021 04:19PM)
[quote]On Feb 15, 2021, Carnac wrote:
I wanted to give a review of the new rings. They took 2 days to get from China to New York City. And they’ve been sitting there for over 2 weeks now. I only live 60 miles from NYC. I wish I could just there and take them. Who knows how long they will sit in some warehouse. Grrrr!! 😫 [/quote]

You could be in for a long wait Carnac. A card packet trick I purchased from a seller in Britain sat in NYC Customs for a month and a half before I finally received it. After calling them up they told me they could hold a package for 45 business days with no explanation. My rings are also held up in NY, but I'm not in a hurry for this.
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 17, 2021 05:31AM)
Hi,

Axel Hecklau produced a review of the Deluxe Linking Rings. It is in german language, but you can see and hear the rings. It is my set and his conclusion is that you
will get a nice set of rings for a valuable price. He mentions that the key ring has a big opening, but also sais that this is absolutely fine with his kind of working. You can see him doing
some silent links and unlinks in the end of the video. He told me that he will do a review in english as well but come out with it probably in march. His conclusion is also that the video is of poor quality and to call everything a ‚deluxe‘ set you must offer more. But than the price would be higher.

You can see the german review here:

https://vimeo.com/512517061

Before Axel got my rings for the video, I did a short unboxing video. It is also in German but you can see everything (except the secret spot). But I already posted a Photo earlier in this thread.

https://vimeo.com/513334421

I am very satisfied with the whole set. I paid about 160€ for the set and shipping. The smaller size of 11 inch is perfect for me, but I understand that it is not ok to keep this secret
until you got your rings. My concern about the caps in the keyring is reported and I wait for a replacement. The rest of the set is beautifully made. It is not ‚deluxe‘ but to be honest for this
price I never expected a deluxe version.
What is really bad is the content and the quality of the video. But as Axel said in the review, if you are really interested in performing this great classic of magic you should read the books and study that piece from other sources.

All the best, Clemens
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 17, 2021 06:07PM)
Clemens--Ich möchte mich recht herzlich bedanken.

The rings look nice!
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Feb 18, 2021 08:23AM)
You are welcome Leo !
Message: Posted by: Futureal (Feb 19, 2021 07:19PM)
So the key has a cut out section, not a bent open section?
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Feb 19, 2021 07:51PM)
It appears cut our not bent. And it would be very hard if not impossible to change the size of the opening
Message: Posted by: leosx1 (Feb 20, 2021 12:55AM)
I am very pleased with my set. The value for money is great. I made my opening a bit smaller by carefully pushing the ends towards each other somewhat, it was not hard and the reslut is satisfying for me.
Message: Posted by: Michael Daniels (Feb 20, 2021 03:07AM)
I bought the full set of eight rings even though I only ever use six (Dai Vernon routine).

PROS:

These are lightweight, look very nice, and are reasonably priced.

The welds are almost invisible and the plating is smooth.

11 inch is a good size for me. I had worried that 12 inch might be too large for some of the chain displays, especially the falling ring.

Useful carry bag.


CONS:

Not 12 inch as advertised.

They sound rather tinny - certainly in comparison with my 45-year-old 10-inch solid metal set, which ring like a bell and still look great (they cost £50 back then for a set of eight).

Can't adjust the key ring.

I haven't bothered with the tutorial.


ON THE FENCE:

It remains to be seen how well the plating (and caps) will survive extensive use.

The larger gap makes some moves much easier, though greater care and some adjustment is needed in handling. As a result, I might try out some different handling or new moves.


OVERALL: 7/10.


Mike
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 20, 2021 12:19PM)
These rings are plated? I thought they were stainless steel only. There is some adjustability with the key with a slight push or pull where the key is held at the three and nine o clock positions and the gap at 12. It's a given with any set of rings.
Message: Posted by: Michael Daniels (Feb 20, 2021 12:45PM)
[quote]On Feb 20, 2021, Leo H wrote:
These rings are plated? I thought they were stainless steel only. There is some adjustability with the key with a slight push or pull where the key is held at the three and nine o clock positions and the gap at 12. It's a given with any set of rings. [/quote]

I could be wrong about the plating, but assumed they are plated to cover the welds.

Mike
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 21, 2021 01:42AM)
Thanks Mike!
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 24, 2021 09:37PM)
My set arrived today and for me it's a mixed bag. They are indeed eleven inches. The gap in the key is definitely too wide. I tried to shorten the gap by brute force but the ring is too thick to budge it. Not good. The aforementioned ugly caps are also on the key as in the photo posted by our German friend. When lightly tapped against each other or linked, there is no sound at all, just a dull clank. No ring, no chime, not even a ping, just a clank. The rings are smooth with no weld spots, so in that aesthetic they're okay.

I see this project as a failure of the folks on this side of the Pacific. The Chinese are still fairly new to the manufacturing process and should have been better instructed on how to make a deluxe set of rings. If I had been in charge of the project I would have flown there with a set of twelve inch Owen rings for them to study and copy. Unless I receive a correct key, this set goes in the closet.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Feb 24, 2021 11:12PM)
The idea of the Chinese being new at this and needing instruction on how to make a proper set of Chinese linking rings is pretty funny.
Message: Posted by: allan31 (Feb 25, 2021 12:29AM)
Ok guys ! You bought these "Deluxe Rings" because there was Michael Ammar's name on the project... and they does not seem to be "deluxe", there is a lot of imperfections, the sound is bad, the key ring is not great, the diameter is not the advertised one...
What does Michael Ammar thinks about this product sold under his name ???
Come on guys, ask for a refound !!! Enough is enough on the magic market ! Too many BS products on the market ... We all should tell the creators and manufeacturers we will not be great guys anymore and put all these BS products in our drawer box anymore !
Message: Posted by: videoman (Feb 25, 2021 01:00AM)
[quote]On Feb 24, 2021, allan31 wrote:
Ok guys ! You bought these "Deluxe Rings" because there was Michael Ammar's name on the project... and they does not seem to be "deluxe", there is a lot of imperfections, the sound is bad, the key ring is not great, the diameter is not the advertised one...
What does Michael Ammar thinks about this product sold under his name ???
Come on guys, ask for a refound !!! Enough is enough on the magic market ! Too many BS products on the market ... We all should tell the creators and manufeacturers we will not be great guys anymore and put all these BS products in our drawer box anymore ! [/quote]

Totally agree and post the same message on here about once a week.
Magic is the only industry where they can misrepresent a product or sell absolute junk and magicians simply say thank you sir, may I have another?
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 25, 2021 12:10PM)
I can't help but wonder what Ammar thinks about the end result of this project. He was never a magic seller that misrepresented a product or sold junk. I suspect he was more of a spokesperson than the quality control supervisor.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 25, 2021 02:34PM)
I sent an email to Michael Ammar to make him aware of the concerns voiced in this topic.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 25, 2021 03:35PM)
That's great Mark! Please let us know what he has to say about this.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 25, 2021 03:44PM)
I'm hoping he'll post something in this very topic.

Mark
Message: Posted by: rhettbryson (Feb 25, 2021 05:13PM)
I know Michael - was about to eMail him myself. I am glad you did Mark. Surely he will have a response.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 25, 2021 11:29PM)
Michael Ammar responded directly to me and asked that I share this with the forum. This is a direct quote from his email:

[quote]Hey Mark,

Thank you so much for letting me know about this... I haven't seen the rings yet, I'm sorry to say. Seems they're stuck at LAX for several days. But please pass the following:

What I'm hearing about the quality of the rings really concerns me. I had worried about promoting the product before seeing the final product, but I looked at the quality of the Cups they've produced, and seen other products and I assumed these would be absolute top of the line. Those Cups would have been a great value at twice the price, so I assumed the same would be true of the rings. But it doesn't sound good to hear you can't alter the gap on the key ring... I like a large gap, but I know others would like to make it the size they're used to. In any case, I'll share my thoughts with you after mine arrive! More anxious than ever for them to arrive!

Michael[/quote]


Mark
Message: Posted by: videoman (Feb 26, 2021 12:28AM)
Interesting that Michael would still be waiting for his rings. I understand he said there was a holdup at LAX but others have received their rings and you would think Michael would have received his long before the general public.
Message: Posted by: allan31 (Feb 26, 2021 01:19AM)
[quote]On Feb 26, 2021, videoman wrote:
Interesting that Michael would still be waiting for his rings. I understand he said there was a holdup at LAX but others have received their rings and you would think Michael would have received his long before the general public. [/quote]

Do we understand that Michael Ammar never saw a picture from the final product or any pictures at the different steps of the production or something from TCC before the rings were shipped all around the world and that he was not the first one to recieved them weeks before everybody ???
Message: Posted by: videoman (Feb 26, 2021 01:32AM)
Well obviously he wasn’t hands on every step of the way.
Sounds like he basically just licensed the use of his name to the project.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 26, 2021 11:08AM)
[quote]On Feb 26, 2021, videoman wrote:
Well obviously he wasn’t hands on every step of the way.
Sounds like he basically just licensed the use of his name to the project. [/quote]

Yes--from his e-mail message it seems he was disconnected from the project to a certain extent. I feel misled about this, but money lost is an educational investment. TCC products are hit or miss. Buyer beware.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Feb 27, 2021 05:53PM)
I received the following from Michael Ammar and he asked me to share it with the group. I am posting his comments in their entirety:

[quote]From Michael Ammar:

After being delayed for several days by the weather, my Linking Rings from TCC finally arrived yesterday afternoon - and I opened the box with great apprehension. I say ‘with great apprehension’ because Mark sent a link Thursday to the conversation about the Rings, and frankly, I was a bit scared. It sounded like a disaster was waiting for me inside that box.

But what I saw was not a disaster. I saw a beautiful leather bag, and what I took from the bag was a beautiful set of Linking Rings. I hoped for a great, beautiful, functional set of Rings that could easily have sold for twice the price - and that’s what I received. Now… was it exactly what I had hoped for? Well, no. Not exactly. So let’s look at the difference between what I expected and what I got…

To begin, the ends at the opening of the key Ring are sealed with a plug, which I haven’t seen before. It doesn’t affect the functionality in any way, and of course, the gap will never be seen by anyone, so it doesn’t break my heart. But… it wasn’t what I expected, so there’s that.

Regarding the size of the Rings, I was hoping for 11.5 inches. These turn out to be 11 inches. Is that a disaster? Not really, BUT in the Kickstarter campaign they were listed as 12 inch Rings. Naturally, if I expected 12 inch Rings but I got 11 inch Rings, I would be disappointed, the same as you. But frankly, I believe the discrepancy in the Kickstarter ad was a cultural issue - for them, English is a foreign language, and they use centimeters, not inches. I just don’t believe there was any intent to deceive, because this is a professional company - why would they set themselves up for problems?

As for the sound of the Rings, I am a huge fan of the quality TCC strives for, so even though I’ve never heard other Rings sound like a bell, in my dreams, these Rings were going to produce music. As it turns out, they simply sound like metal Rings striking together. Which is more of a blow to my idealistic hopes than it is a complaint about TCC’s manufacturing.

The other issue discussed here concerned the edited video teaching my routine, which I haven’t seen yet. But I did see the raw footage, and what I saw was a good, effective teaching of the routine I perform - which is all that was promised.

For years Louis Falanga, owner of L&L, and I discussed producing a project on the Rings similar to what we did with the Cups and Balls. But we decided against that, because when it comes to the Linking Rings, people typically wanted to learn a specific routine, so more information than that wasn’t necessary. So our goal here was to effectively and efficiently teach my routine, just like anyone else who has taught their routine has done before. The one difference we brought to the table was the ability to distinguish exactly which Ring was which at all times during the explanation, which, hopefully, was helpful.

As far as the quality of the final image is concerned, it’s possible there was a functional loss in quality in getting the footage to China. We filmed in 4 K, but that made the file so large TCC wasn’t able to download it through any of the methods we tried to send it. In the end, we had to save it in 1080 resolution in order to get the footage to them. On our end the image still looked great, but it’s possible that in the process some of the quality was lost. That’s my guess.

There is no question… expectations would have been managed better if I had been able to handle the exact set of Rings others would receive before the Kickstarted ad was made public. The details should have been accurate, and in all future advertising, they will be. That’s a no-brainer. All ads tend to romanticize their product, but when it comes to measurements, again… why would anyone intentionally set themselves up for complaints? At the same time, the diameter of the Rings doesn’t affect the quality of the magic itself, or there would be 15, 20 and 30 inch Rings on the market. So the main issues comes down to what people expected.

In a perfect world, I would’ve flown to China 5 months ago to personally oversee production. Actually, in a NORMAL world I would’ve done that. I’ve returned to China every year since 2013, but Covid made 2020 the exception. I believe TCC is a fantastic company. From what I’ve seen, they always try to produce the highest possible quality at the most affordable price, and I believe they’ve done that here.

As far as what advice I’d give to those who are disappointed, well… my personal policy is if someone isn’t happy with a purchase, I give their money back. I don’t know what TCC’s policy is, but I bet they feel the same way. A no questions asked return policy is how we’d all like to be treated, isn’t it?

Otherwise, please forgive the length of this message… this was more than the average person would want to know about all this, but I think guys on the Magic Café are more interested in the details than most others. So if any questions remain, I welcome the chance to provide answers![/quote]


Mark
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Feb 27, 2021 06:33PM)
Thanks for posting this Mark! Mike didn't mention the large gap in the key that's too wide and not adjustable. Will TCC produce a better key for those who backed this project?
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Mar 1, 2021 09:36AM)
Leo, I guess Michael read your post because he emailed me last night and asked me to post this:

[quote]From Michael Ammar:

Hey guys, about the big gap in the Key Ring… that gap is the exact size of the gap in the Rings I used before TCC came along. I’ve always like a big gap in the Key Ring because it makes so many of the moves I use easier to do without looking at my hands. My rationale is that if I can conceal that gap and it makes it easier to do the links and unlinks, then why not make it a functionally big gap? I did try to close the gap on the Rings I got, and it’s very hard to do - more difficult than any other Rings I own. I don’t think the metal is any different - I think the walls are just thicker, even though the Rings are hollow.

If you own TCC’s Cups and Balls, you know they are the heaviest Cups on the market. That’s because the Cups are cut from a bar, not spun from a disk of metal, and the walls are a bit thicker than others. Those Cups, and I now suspect these Rings, were designed to last 100 years - or more! These are the only props I own that will outlast me, my children and my grandchildren.

For those that want to close the gap a bit, it can be done. I’ve just never seen Rings this sturdy, so… like I said, it’s hard to do. In retrospect, we should probably have made the gap a bit smaller, because I think it’s always easier to pull the gap wider than it is to push it together. But if you watch the video of my performance and explanation, you can tell that’s the same big gap that I use.

As a side note, last night, in Moultrie, GA of all places, I gave my first live performance since last February in Blackpool. Of course I used these Linking Rings and the reactions felt SO good. Frankly, everything went great but in a show featuring cards, Coin in Bottle, Ropes, Cups and Balls and Bill to Lemon, it was the Rings that really gave the show texture. I suspect most of you guys have done the Rings before, but if you haven’t, you should give them a try. It’s truly one of magic’s greatest classics for a reason![/quote]


I should mention: Michael hadn't used his Magic Café account since 2006. He tried to log in but had forgotten the password. When he tried to reset the password he didn't get the email. The reason for that (which I learned from Dave Scribner) is that AOL blocks the Magic Café. Michael's email address is an AOL address. And, since January 24, the Magic Café has been closed to new registrations, so Michael can't create a new account either.

Mark
Message: Posted by: leosx1 (Mar 1, 2021 09:40AM)
I really like my set, also the looks of it, I think I got more than my moneys worth, also they ring nicely if you handle them with the appropriate subtle touch.
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Mar 1, 2021 09:48AM)
I don't think people should be worried about the sound/ring of the rings. Even the hollow Owen rings don't "ring like bells" as some seem to think.

In my experience, SOLID rings have a better ring tone. The only hollow rings that have a nice sustained ring are the aluminum ones by ProLine. These videos compare the ring of ProLine hollow aluminum rings to Owen Magic Supreme hollow stainless steel rings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Rlh9R3X18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEnHQpPeok

I strongly suspect that these TCC rings have a ring tone that is pretty similar to the Owen rings.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Mar 1, 2021 05:19PM)
The main problem with this set is the key ring. The extra wide gap isn't adjustable. A substantial amount of the ring was removed to make the gap. Does anyone know if TCC has responded to this issue?
Message: Posted by: yin_howe (Mar 1, 2021 06:47PM)
Thank you @Magic Mark for posting Mr. Ammar's comments.

Could it be that people are disappointed because they were expecting Proline or Owen's quality rings (of which 1-2 single rings would have cost the same as the entire TCC set! @_@). Compared to my elcheapo and very thin set, The tcc ones are waaaaay better.
Message: Posted by: Leo H (Mar 1, 2021 07:50PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2021, yin_howe wrote:
Thank you @Magic Mark for posting Mr. Ammar's comments.

Could it be that people are disappointed because they were expecting Proline or Owen's quality rings (of which 1-2 single rings would have cost the same as the entire TCC set! @_@). Compared to my elcheapo and very thin set, The tcc ones are waaaaay better. [/quote]

Sure, you could say that. The Kickstarter video presented the rings as something comparable to Owen or Proline at a fraction of the cost. The rings I saw in the video don't appear to be what I received. My main concern is the key ring with the unusually large gap and how TCC plans to address that.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Mar 1, 2021 08:08PM)
Maybe they will offer a ring with a smaller gap at a reduced cost to purchasers. I doubt it will be free as I’m not sure the advertisement was a misrepresentation.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Mar 1, 2021 08:08PM)
I also find the rings of satisfactory quality but wish the gap was smaller.
Message: Posted by: Carnac (Mar 2, 2021 07:22PM)
I'm another "unsatisfied customer",which is a real bummer because I'm not a picky guy. I sold my 12" Clark Fonda rings to get this set. I didn't need an 11" set as I have 4 10" sets already. This would be replacing my only 12" set. The large gap was good for me, I usually cut a piece of the key ring to make it bigger. (even my Orb Eternals) But I totally understand that it is too big for many and not "adjustable". The tone? Forget about a "ring', definitely more of a "clunk", which kind of sucks but not a deal breaker. The finish on the gap, while not visible to the audience, looks/feels unfinished for sure. I would have used a "bullet nose" type of plug. The welds are not visible, which is great, but again, the finish is mediocre. I do like the thickness of the rings. That was a hit.
Oh yeah, I ordered 5 rings, as offered, because my routine also uses just 5 rings. Guess what? I received NO bag! Was that mentioned in KickStarter? No it was not!
What really kills me is that Linking Rings are not hard to produce. Maybe 50 years ago they were. But not with today's machinery. Think about it. There are no fancy wood cuts, no intricate paint job, no complicated gimmick, and no new idea. Good Lord, they are just oversized bracelets. Not difficult. (Yes, I checked with two sources) Are these oversized bracelets better than some? Yes. Are they more expensive than many? Yes. Were they advertised with better expectations? For sure. Will anybody buy these at what will be the retail price when they are available to purchase? I can't imagine.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Mar 3, 2021 01:02PM)
[quote]On Mar 1, 2021, Magic Mark wrote:
I don't think people should be worried about the sound/ring of the rings. Even the hollow Owen rings don't "ring like bells" as some seem to think.

In my experience, SOLID rings have a better ring tone. The only hollow rings that have a nice sustained ring are the aluminum ones by ProLine. These videos compare the ring of ProLine hollow aluminum rings to Owen Magic Supreme hollow stainless steel rings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Rlh9R3X18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFEnHQpPeok

I strongly suspect that these TCC rings have a ring tone that is pretty similar to the Owen rings.

Mark [/quote]

Interesting that someone would have compared the sounds of the rings, but what isn’t on YouTube these days?

But I can confirm that my Proline 12” rings do ring like they do in that video.

I personally also like the Proline magnetic key ring. I use it only once briefly during the chain display in Pop Haydn's routine. Just never liked having to hold the chain with 2 hands. I find it to be an added convincer for those that “think” they know.

I’m curious if you put the TCC key ring in a bar clamp and tightened it up, if the ring would kink before the gap reached your preferred size?
Message: Posted by: Carnac (Mar 3, 2021 07:15PM)
IMPORTANT UPDATE: I am happy to say that very shortly after my last post TCC reached out to me to say that I should have received a bag with my 5 ring purchase. That is very good customer service and I really appreciate it. Also, I wanted to say in that last post that I was Very Happy with the instructional video. I remember, many years ago, when I purchased my first set of linking rings. As far as directions are concerned, I received a poorly copied half sheet of "directions" consisting of 4 paragraphs and 3 terrible illustrations of a bunch of circles intersecting. It's amazing that I stuck with magic and didn't pick up a guitar! I loved the fact that I got a full video with performance and explanation from one of the top teachers in our field. It was well shot and wonderfully explained. The idea of marking the rings so I could follow along was terrific and Michael's teaching is always a joy to watch.
Message: Posted by: MrFinix (Mar 4, 2021 08:01AM)
Hi Mark, thanks for sharing Michaels thoughts with us!
Message: Posted by: Futureal (Mar 8, 2021 03:30PM)
I like Ammar but that statement is a load of garbage.

China has some of the fastest internet in the world, of course they could download a 4K video file.

And THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD uses centimetres. That doesn’t mean they can’t still measure things in inches and know how long 12 inches is! What an absurd statement, that’s almost comical.

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/5tpdWPPD/CDB401-D5-240-F-436-F-87-B8-13-B20-E5416-D4.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: videoman (Mar 8, 2021 03:46PM)
What difference does 1080 vs 4K make in an instructional video?
It’s certainly high enough resolution to enable one to learn handlings and routines.
Besides, wasn’t the main complaint in regards to the audio quality?

As far as the rings not being the size advertised, at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter to the consumer whether it was an intent to deceive or an honest mistake. For those that wanted or needed 12” rings, those people should be able to get a refund.
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Apr 20, 2021 11:08AM)
Hi,

as I promised here is my update to my key ring issues. I wrote to TCC about my concerns and received
a ‚perfect‘ one. It is so well made that even I could not find the gap. No kidding....they sent me another single
ring. No key-ring. 😂😂😂
Today Axel Hecklau and I cut this ring with a ‚dremel‘ and got very good results. Finally I have now a perfect set
for me, but I doubt it will work for everyone.

All the best, Clemens
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Apr 20, 2021 11:28AM)
Key Ring....

sorry I tried to upload a picture, but after almost 30 minutes I give up. Why is it so complicated ???
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Apr 20, 2021 01:02PM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Hi,

as I promised here is my update to my key ring issues. I wrote to TCC about my concerns and received
a ‚perfect‘ one. It is so well made that even I could not find the gap. No kidding....they sent me another single
ring. No key-ring. 😂😂😂
Today Axel Hecklau and I cut this ring with a ‚dremel‘ and got very good results. Finally I have now a perfect set
for me, but I doubt it will work for everyone.

All the best, Clemens [/quote]

That is both hilarious and extremely sad at the same time.

I've never purchased a TCC product and, the way things are going, I never will in the future either.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Futureal (Apr 23, 2021 02:54AM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Key Ring....

sorry I tried to upload a picture, but after almost 30 minutes I give up. Why is it so complicated ??? [/quote]

It’s not. It’s been the exact same method on internet discussion boards since the early 1990s. You just don’t know how to do it.

Upload it to postimages.org and put the complete link in between [ img ] x [ /img ] tags without the spaces. X is the URL.
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Apr 24, 2021 08:18AM)
Hi,

here are two pictures of my self made key ring.

[url=https://postimg.cc/G8LDkrDc][img]https://i.postimg.cc/G8LDkrDc/88668928-167-B-4-DED-8-B2-E-ED9-EC8153-CB6.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/Q9mpPVD9][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Q9mpPVD9/ABB657-C9-3982-4-B14-A9-D5-F9-EE35-C118-CF.jpg[/img][/url]
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Apr 24, 2021 08:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2021, Futureal wrote:
[quote]On Apr 20, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Key Ring....

sorry I tried to upload a picture, but after almost 30 minutes I give up. Why is it so complicated ??? [/quote]

It’s not. It’s been the exact same method on internet discussion boards since the early 1990s. You just don’t know how to do it.

Upload it to postimages.org and put the complete link in between [ img ] x [ /img ] tags without the spaces. X is the URL. [/quote]


Thank you for helping me! Indeed it was easy now. But to be serious we are living in 2021 not in the early 90‘s. Even my cellphone in those days made pictures
bigger than 75 KB. It would be more convenient to have just a button to upload the pictures.

Best, Clemens
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Apr 24, 2021 11:49PM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2021, Clemens Ilgner wrote:
Thank you for helping me! Indeed it was easy now. But to be serious we are living in 2021 not in the early 90‘s. Even my cellphone in those days made pictures
bigger than 75 KB. It would be more convenient to have just a button to upload the pictures.

Best, Clemens [/quote]

We're getting off on a tangent, but here's the reason it's not as easy as you wish... Photos eat bandwidth and storage. You can fit a LOT of typed words into the same storage space as a single photo. Storage and bandwidth cost money. And, last I checked, there was no fee to be a member of this forum. So, the costs of storage and bandwidth are being borne by the forum owner.

With 70K registered members, if only 10% of them uploaded a few photos a day, that could become a large storage expense for the forum owner.

Thus, the way you share photos is by hosting them somewhere else and then linking them with the IMG tags that were previously explained.

If you'd like, you can PM me and I'll give you an email address you can send the photos to. I'll host them on my photo site and then link them in this thread. You can send me as large of photos as you like. The bigger the better.

Just reach out via PM if you'd like me to do that.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Magic Mark (Apr 24, 2021 11:58PM)
Never mind, I was able to find your images via your broken link message above. I download the photos and here they are (via hosting on my photo site);

[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-WDvmTQc/0/1e914f47/XL/i-WDvmTQc-XL.jpg[/img]


Much larger version of that photo: https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-WDvmTQc/0/1e914f47/O/i-WDvmTQc.jpg


[img]https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3DMNkSN/0/78a8e878/L/i-3DMNkSN-L.jpg[/img]


Much larger version of that photo: https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3DMNkSN/0/78a8e878/O/i-3DMNkSN.jpg


Mark
Message: Posted by: Clemens Ilgner (Apr 25, 2021 06:46AM)
Thank you Mark,

I think now everybody can see how it is possible to make your own key ring.

All the best!