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Topic: Cards v. Coins
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Jun 15, 2021 10:24AM)
In general, in which art form is it more difficult to achieve some proficiency (i.e., enough to astonish laymen)? Specifically, once you get into the knuckle-busting card stuff, how does coin conjuring compare? I hope this is not too meaningless a comparison.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Jun 15, 2021 11:43AM)
Card magic has a lot of easy and/or self-working effects that can astonish audiences. You won't have access to the full array of strong card magic unless you're willing to put a lot of work in, but you can kill audiences with easy things.

Coin magic has very little in the way of good self-working effects. You can go the gimmick route, which will have some real foolers in there, but you'll be limited by the fact that you'll be forced to work with your own coins. You're not going to be able to borrow a coin and pull off copper-silver unless you train hard.
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Jun 15, 2021 12:27PM)
Thanks BK. Why do I get the feeling that you've been doing this awhile? :bigsmile:
Message: Posted by: dustrod (Jun 15, 2021 01:35PM)
Teddyboy, I just started working with coins a few months back and my first impressions were this..
A person really needs a routine to make coins work as well as cards. Just knowing a false take or transfer takes literally a second to perform and of itself isn't mind blowing.
On a responsible level, the same could be said about cards but at a beginner level, with cards I could learn a new move and get excited about it and do a a fairly powerful transposition or a penetration or a prediction or something.
With coins, just making one vanish and appear somewhere else doesn't compare but knowing that same coin vanish with a little extra work put behind it to memorize the patter and moves makes for a powerful routine.
I bought Rubinstein's Coin book and it has great moves and helps lay them out in some really fun ways for some amazing effects.

One other thing about switching to coins is, I felt naked without a deck of cards. There's so many ways to manipulate or hide a card in a deck. With coins it's either in your left hand or your right and they're both being watched so it's really fun when you make progress with coins and learn how to be deceptive with them.

That's my 2 cents :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Jun 16, 2021 11:57AM)
Thanks for your two cents. I'm not going to take on coins, but I have always been curious about them. It must be tough coming up with things to do with coins.
Message: Posted by: KungFuMagic (Jun 16, 2021 12:09PM)
A significant difference Incan see it this .... simple techniques with a coin (a vanish and production) requires a stronger presentation than a relatively simple card technique. One difference is the prop itself. 52 cards leading to a vanish/produce has a perceived mystery that a single coin doesn't enjoy.

Another difference with coins is the general need for more fine motor dexterity to perform many of the techniques andnsleights well enough to be effective. Cards have a bit less fine motor, but still motor dexterity.
Message: Posted by: Topper2 (Jun 16, 2021 03:13PM)
The big difference between coins and cards is that coins are just objects which you can make appear, vanish, multiply, penetrate and change in denomination etc. You can do that with cards too, with split fans and back and front palming etc, but you can also do so much more because cards can be used as unique individuals with all the variety stemming from that.

Some of the very first magic I ever learnt was coin tricks, you just put your hand in your pocket, or borrowed one, and you could do a fair bit of impromptu manipulation. If you wanted to do a trick you had the props on you and available at all times. That is not the case today, we are entering a cashless society where people often don't carry notes, let alone coins; and the coins themselves don't lend themselves to the sort of manipulation we would want to do. The days of the glorious old half-crowns, florins and big old pennies are long gone. So we have to use coins we buy from a dealer, often U.S. Kennedy half dollars, these are not everyday items to most people any more, they are just props and you may as well be using stage money, manipulator's coins etc.

For these reasons coin magic to me is not nearly so useful and important as it once was and and if you are going to carry coins around you might just as well carry any other magic prop. So for me the glory days of the impromptu coin effect, vanishing a coin and plucking it out of Grandpa's beard, belong to Hoffmann's era and not the present.

A similar fate has befallen cigarette and smoking tricks of course, which were once legion.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jun 16, 2021 03:56PM)
It always depends on your objective and the expectations of the audience. Essentially, strong entertainment or strong magic. (opinions, of course, but based on 60+ years of doing both).

Most card effects are magical (sotra like magic) and suffer form everybody knowing a trick or two. Therefor, "trick" is expected and "must be magic" difficult to achieve.
There are some exception for cards being used as "small object" instead of pips and pictures and colors, but those can take more practice than coins.

WIth coins, many effects can be framed around "inexplicable phenomena" and lead the observer to expect magic and remember the experience.
You can produce a coin from thin air after showing both hands empty and fully surrounded, and make a coin vanish for a spectator's hand. Neither is possible with cards.

As to motor dexterity, I have created more coin sleights and effects after my hands became crippled than before. But, now I can't do a double lift and there is no alternative.
Yes, I can do "pick a card" tricks but they are not magic for me - or my audiences of choice.

I have had the pleasure of folks talking to me 40-50 years after a performance and remember the experience of awe&wonder.
I have never had anyone even a year later talk about a card trick.

The amount of practice required for each depends a lot on the type of effect desired.
And now there is the problem of coins no longer being "common and carried." Thus, they are now seem more as props with "trick" or "skill demonstration" more expected."

A third option is to consider "small object magic" - mostly using found, available objects that are never seen as props.
Sleights and Moves from both coin and card venues can apply (and balls, of course.)

Kung mentions "stronger presentation" and that may be the key to your decision and focus of effort.
The "real" effectiveness of a magic effect does not depend on the props and objects used.
You should practice presentation skills regardless of object choice.

Exploring coin magic presentation requirements can make you better at card effects too.
Good card techniques will not help much with coins or other objects - more of a "one way street."

So, I guess I am challenging the choice offered or the "vs" implication.
If you want to be a good magician you can't restrict learning to such a simple "either or" choice.

My objective is "Discover what the audience expects of magic and then give them something more."

I can do that with a couple of coins or pieces of candy. Pulling out a deck of cards makes my goal more difficult.

If, however, I am with a group of people already doing and appreciating card tricks, I can do a couple that will blow their socks off.
Message: Posted by: Ravenspur (Jun 17, 2021 08:31AM)
I need to start messing with cards again, but I'm not a huge fan of card magic, especially self-working tricks.

I like a couple of things about coins: 1) you can practice palms anywhere. You can actually practice some moves just sitting in a chair watching TV. 2) When you do a really good move--say, a retention pass with a really good burn--people's eyes bug out. Practicing in the mirror, you can even fool yourself.
Message: Posted by: Kastro (Jun 25, 2021 09:03AM)
What card games are better to play?
Message: Posted by: plungerman (Jul 5, 2021 11:36PM)
Which is more difficult is not a meaningful question I think. As with anything it depends on what you are trying to do. If you have not grown up palming coins or fanning cards you will have a tough time catching up. Either one requires passion, not a careful choice as to which to start in on. Coins and cards are very different areas using very different slights, both because of the size and nature of cards and the nature of coins. Also as has been stated, very different plots. One thing to keep in mind is that there are more ways than one to do something you need whether it is vanishing a coin or a card. Some are beyond exquisite difficulty but others are simply direct.

Like many here I am an addict at learning and collecting slight of hand if only to find "just what I need" from the next book, any day now, of course. My hands purr along with cards or coins in them just to keep the mind working. This is a fine and honorable, if not a money saving, hobby. The pleasure is in the preparation, the learning, sharing and thinking.

The real issue is entertainment. If one is lucky enough to have a gig working for people then your slights must either be dead-on or get yourself a proper gaff. I'll never hesitate to use the easiest means to get the mechanics over and done with rather than slights. It leaves me to concentrate on presentation which is ALL THEY EVER SEE! It is vital not to make the audience the judge of your slight of hand. That must all be invisible, to you as well as them, finished and done without thinking. I hope everyone knows this.

As for effectiveness I know magicians who marvel at good card work of others, as they should. But I have never heard an audience marvel at any card work as magic. Once they know you can fan them or cut them like a pro, which I don't believe in hiding, they will expect you have access to any ACAAN any time you like. They will still enjoy the performance but your skill, not magic, is all they will credit. The way we make this entertaining is to make it meaningful to them, right there. Small, personal, local miracles.

Great card magic, or mine, has always been reported back to me as great skill. But I have heard many times, directly and indirectly of the lasting mystery of my coin magic. Most are like my favorite report, "How did! he get those coins through that table?" Of course this is simple but it stuck with them. And there is the answer.

There is also something to be said about the magic happening in their hands. This can be done with cards and coins but I think people are used to holding coins more-so than cards. Either way that is the best ending to any effect you can find.

Happy to stir up the pot.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 6, 2021 07:54AM)
[quote]On Jun 16, 2021, funsway wrote:
It always depends on your objective and [b][i]the expectations of the audience.[/b][/i][/quote]

With cards, early on I always got, "Oh NO! Not another card trick!" I don't do cards. Much.

Doug
Message: Posted by: TeddyBoy (Jul 6, 2021 09:32PM)
Doug, that is quite an incentive to expand to coins...but they are so hard to learn! At least for me.
Message: Posted by: Cub Sines (Jul 7, 2021 02:29AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2021, TeddyBoy wrote:
Doug, that is quite an incentive to expand to coins...but they are so hard to learn! At least for me. [/quote]

As a solid card man for way too long (I love card tricks, even those self working ones), I found that doing tricks with everyday, borrowed objects is 1) way more fun than just with cards (own or borrowed) & 2) much, much more better for audience, based on the reactions I have gotten.

Yes, cards are easier than coins IMHO, but you actually can do just a simple coin tricks, just like with cards, that doesn't require so much learning, nor need an 'complete' routine to achieve great reactions. Cesaral melting point, sinful, matrix... There are many easy-to-do coin tricks available. But if you want to get more of the 'wow''wow' -reaction from audience, then cards are easier to achieve that.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 7, 2021 10:24AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2021, Cub Sines wrote:

I found that doing tricks with everyday, borrowed objects is 1) way more fun than just with cards (own or borrowed) & 2) much, much more better for audience, based on the reactions I have gotten.

[/quote]

Yes - any idea of "either cards or coins" is far too limiting.

I will soon be releasing a Series of eBooks using "Found" objects like nuts, candy, pebbles, jelly packets and such - ideal for a true Impromptu presentation,
or a Prelude to greater things depending on audience interest and reaction (appreciation of magic). (even coins or cards)

Many "new to you" Sleights and use of Psychological Ploys, but described in a step-learning process requiring only moderate hand skills, but live audience engagement experience.
Old to me as I have always done this type of Effects for sixty plus years. I have performed one of the described techniques more than 20,000 times.

The F.U.N. explanations also go into much more than just mechanics. Foresight, Utility and Nurturing as Planning, Orchestration and Review. -
all geared to teaching "when" and "why" as much as "how."

One eBook will be on "Yours, Not Mine" for borrowed objects that could include coins, but most are meant to be different from either coins or cards.

Cards might be used for Matrix type effects but there are no 'card tricks' in any of these. Other eBooks can deal with those possibilities,
but I never consider any playing card effect to be Impromptu or a deck of cards a "found" object. Besides, show one card trick and someone else wants to show your theirs. ;)

'One Stone', 'Pair of Stones', 'Fist Full of Stones', 'Pile of Stones', 'Yours, Not Mine' and 'Treasure Basket'
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 8, 2021 06:43AM)
Combining cards AND coins...now there is a concept!

Doug