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Topic: To many people see the same tricks over and over
Message: Posted by: George50 (Dec 2, 2021 07:20PM)
I don't know if this has been covered here so here goes. I have a standing gig every other Friday at a restaurant. The problem is that a lot of the same people come again and again and they have seen all of my stuff. What do you suggest other then buying new props all the time? All so does any one know when I can get a set of Chad Long's Flash? I have used my set so much they have gotten very soiled I tried to clean them but that did not work so if some knows where to get a new set or know a good way of cleaning them please let me know.
Thanks George
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2021 07:57PM)
Buy books and develop skills instead of buying tricks.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Dec 2, 2021 09:52PM)
I had those concerns. Working restaurants for MANY years, I had allot of repeat customers. Sometimes they just appreciated small talk without the need to perform. Others would say "What do you got for us today?"

Like Danny mentions, no need to buy effects. Use what you have in a different way by developing your skills. (Yes books)

Cards- there are a zillion routines, coins, everyday objects, peek wallets
, center tears, ropes, effects with a TT. The list goes on and on and...........

I never came up empty at the restaurants I performed in. Just put on your thinking cap.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Dec 3, 2021 03:59AM)
It is true that repeat patrons will judge you differently than new guests. The novelty is gone but hopefully the friendship and good will is there. You can show them new tricks that you may not have down perfectly “something I’m working on,” bar bets and puzzles are also good.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 3, 2021 08:33AM)
My "Found and F.U.N." series of eBooks is designed to address this problem.
By mastering a few Moves, Sleights and Stratagems you are prepared to present powerful and engaging Effect
using whatever objects are available on table. You can change the storyline to meet the situation and appear to be performing a new Effect.
In some popular approaches you can use a different sleight each time, but just performing an Effect using jelly packets names Lyon, Bear, Wolf
will come across differently that the same Effect done in spectator hands with dinner mints.

I will be releasing complete routines for table hopping or dinner table settings, but the key will be in fueling your imagination rather than "doing it my way."
These will all assume your have mastered the basics of the Series.

Quit buy props and nw "off the shelf" tricks and learn how to discover what the audience of the moment expects by way of magic and give them more.

Some the offered Effect have been presented by me thousands of times BUT were always different - at least in the mind of any observer.

Repeat customers? What an opportunity for a "Garden Path" strategy!

You should be able to approach a table and DISCOVER what is the mix of magic experience, appreciation and expectations.
Then weave mastered Methods and Techniques into a series of Effect that will be remembered as magic.

Save your expensive props and gimmicks for a paid performance for a known audience.

But, in a basic view, ANY live demonstration of something incredible is better than the option of their staring at a cellphone during dinner.
Message: Posted by: Kaliix (Dec 3, 2021 03:54PM)
If you don't want to buy new props but you are out of tricks to show, then you have to learn new tricks with the props you have or perhaps invest in a new prop that has be used for multiple routines.

Cards are a magicians bread and butter. New card routine can use the same cards so there is a place to start. I would also ask you if you use a marked deck as that is also an easy way to add in new tricks to a standard deck while also giving you the flexibility to have checks and backups in place should things go wrong.

Card tricks are so personal. I perform ones that I found good presentations for and can be used FASDIU. For what it's worth my personal A1 set is Pre-prefiguration (Elsdon), Deceit Treat (Francis) and Search and Destroy (Fisher).

I would also add that knowing a few packet tricks is nice. Twisting and Daley's can be done back to back. Color Monte can be done with the Joker(s), AS and QH.

A thumbtip is good for many effects. Sweeter and Lower was always a good one in the restaurant. Silk vanishes, color changes, or the mini thumbtip blendo is like $5 but works.

Torn and restored napkin using the bars napkins or for a one-time investment in the right kind.

Money tricks can work well. Do you do a bill change? I just bought the Mark Young bill change and it is wonderful and tipless. Bill test by Erik Casey is a notable entry to the bill change world that I like. Then there are the extreme burn varieties.

Rope is relatively cheap and can be used is several rope routines like professor's nightmare, a more intense version like Fiber Optics, a cut and restored (thumb tip) or ring on rope (David Williamsons is a great one) are all possibilities.

I like gypsy floss in the restaurant. I know reset is an issue but honestly, I just set up four in my back pocket and that was enough for the night. It is also easy to use as a one-off. Lonnie Chevrie's version is awesome.

For $20 you could get Fantasma magic's ring escape. I know it doesn't look like much, but I've gotten great mileage out of the routine.

Another avenue is rubber band tricks. Rubber bands are cheap and there are all types of routines for them. I do Crazy Man's Handcuffs followed by CMH with a twist and finish with a snort of the final band up the nose. Don't underestimate the nose thing. Adults freakin' love that bit, just sayin'.

How's that for off the top of my head...
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Dec 4, 2021 11:54PM)
I typically tried a new routine every week. I would note the reactions to it and file away the information for future strolling gigs. If it was very strong, I'd develop it further as a regular part of the repertoire. It's best to have a library at home to draw from.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Dec 5, 2021 09:26AM)
Are the people complaining? Some people like to see the same tricks again and request them. I think Siegfried and Roy said Liberace said, "Never change more than 50% of your show."
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 5, 2021 10:24AM)
We had regulars at Schuliens for decades. Charlie never had much more than 20 or so tricks. (Consequently I guess I didn't either LOL.) BUT it never stopped anyone ever from coming back.

I have to doubt people think too much about specific magic tricks they see or how often unless it is every week for a LONG time. I mean they are coming back for a reason. Singers sing the same songs, and other artists don't really suffer from this. I think it is a magician thing.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Dec 5, 2021 11:48AM)
It depends on the "repeat customers". There are those that remember and have no problem stating, "You did that one already". You start into another effect and they say " We remember that one too".Then they say with a smile and a chuckle "We come in so often, are you running out of things to show us?

It happens, everyone is different and mileages vary. As was mentioned, It's good, imo,to have a well rounded reservoir to draw from. The more you know the better. Michael Skinner was known for having a very
large repertoire. He worked close-up in Vegas for years.
Message: Posted by: danfreed (Dec 6, 2021 02:11PM)
Well, you can teach them a few tricks such as ripped and restored napkin. You can also do bigger tricks that you typically only do for stage/parlor and just keep them in back and grab them as needed. Or you can add a non magic skill such as oragami or balloons.
Message: Posted by: George50 (Dec 7, 2021 07:15PM)
Thanks for all the good tips! I'm going back to books and dvd's I have for new material. I do have another question I would like to learn more tricks that doesn't use cards or coins I do a lot of those already. As I mentioned I really like Flash Kaliix mentioned a bill switch could some one recommend a book or dvd that I can get that teaches that or any book or dvd on non cards or coin tricks?
Thanks George
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 8, 2021 05:24AM)
Check out my "F.U.N. and Found" Series of ebooks. Dozens of Effects using 'found objects' like, candy, nuts, coffee creamers, jelly packets, pebbles, etc - and sleight and techniques to fuel your own creativity. Three volumes out and more to come. There will never be a "repeat audience" problem when you learn to use a 'Prelude Approach' and can branch into an Effect based on what you learn about the audience of the moment. No preparation, no gimmicks, nothing carried with you except a desire to create astonishment and awe&wonder for mixed audiences.
Message: Posted by: Magical Moments (Dec 8, 2021 12:50PM)
They are plenty of people out there who like to see a magic trick more than once. In fact, they often ask you to do it again after you perform a trick. They buy tickets to see the same magician do his/her act over and over again. They go on YouTube and watch a demo repeatedly.

So, only in specific circumstances do spectators not want to see the same trick over and over again. Maybe if the trick is really bad in one or more ways so it is painful to see it any more.

Do we magicians not like to see tricks/performances over and over again? Indeed we do!

Of course, we run the risk of a spectator figuring out the trick if they see it again. For that reason, too much exposure to a particular trick by spectators/laymen is not a great idea.
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Dec 8, 2021 04:48PM)
A dear friend of mine would have people follow him to different venues to see him. They knew his script as well as he did. I remember being backstage when I heard many people in the audience speaking his lines to the trick, as he continued, he just stopped speaking and they did his patter. Lots of applause, laughter, and a contract to keep performing at that venue after that show.
Message: Posted by: Jumbopenny (Dec 10, 2021 12:37AM)
You're short on material in 2021 with something called the Internet? Seriously?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 10, 2021 02:22AM)
[quote]On Dec 10, 2021, Jumbopenny wrote:
You're short on material in 2021 with something called the Internet? Seriously? [/quote]

yup, lots of tricks available. Finding good magic effects may take a little more work ;)

Very seriously - the real skill is discovering what your audience of the moment expects by way of magic, and then give them more.
Audience engagement skills, listening skills, voice control skills, enhanced empathic awareness, etc.

These are never found on the Internet in any year.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 10, 2021 03:06AM)
Here is a little story to enjoy on ht e them of performing the same tricks for the same people. Maybe it will inspire some musing about magic altogether.

Kimi

Kimi may be a strange name for a dog, but she grew to fit, shall we say. Her first trainer had been a prison inmate of Algonquin heritage. He had applied the nickname meaning “secret” for the way the Collie pup cocked her head to one side and looked mysterious when asked a question. As a full-grown Service Dog she often used that posture to advantage. Kimi would deflect attention away from me and my disabilities. For a magician this would be called misdirection. For animal lovers it was either cute or mischievous or “less than ideal” show quality. The real secret is that Kimi knew when and how much to “turn it on” depending on her appraisal of the human before her. If I had that ability I might have been a psychologist or professional poker player instead of running a snack concession outside this bank.

I dabble in magic tricks myself to fill the lull between city busses. Most of my customers are folks waiting on the benches under the canopy. Bank customers going in rarely buy anything, but sometimes leave a kid or grandparent for me and Kimi to entertain or guard. With streets filled with perps, hooligans and politicians it is difficult to know whom to trust. Somehow, a crippled Vet with a Service Dog measures up. When not assisting me, Kimi makes sure my customers don’t litter or abuse each other. I have a special variance in a city that does not allow sidewalk concessions or street busking. The way of it is a story for another time. What is important is a more natural kind of magic pervasive at 111 Emory Street.

No one wants to interact much with a one-legged man with his face half shot away. Everyone wants to approach a beautiful Collie with a fetching head-tilt and frolicking manner. Her harness cape reads “WORKING DOG” on one side and “DO NOT PET” on the other. So, there is a push-pull dynamic in play. Strangers feel they should ask my permission with Kimi hinting they must. It is easy for someone buying a candy bar or magazine to chat with me without actually acknowledging me as a person. I am invisible for the price of a pack of gum. It’s a living. Don't judge. It is your kid who is unemployed and not me. I am prone to dropping things too. People are amazed to see Kimi pick up change and drop the coins in a dish, or return a pencil to its cup. She could pick up only the nickels if I asked her to, but folks would think that was a trick or that I was controlling her with telepathy. We want repeat customers and happy thoughts more that strange questions.

I only started doing magic effects to entertain bus hopeful folks because some asked if Kimi did any tricks. Seems silly to me. They observe a dog who can help me on and off the bus, police litterers, pick up dropped objects without a command and keep kids from stealing candy. Instead, people want to see if Kimi can shake hands or play dead. So, it seemed natural for me to say, “No, she is working – but I can.” Then I would perform some simple magic tricks with coins or folding money or paper napkins. I can do wonders with Hershey Kisses when someone buys a bag and hands me a couple. People who know the famous Cups and Balls don’t recognize it when performed with Kisses and snow-cone holders. A sign by my register reads, “No Tips Allowed.” Beneath that is another sign that reads, “Daily Special – peanuts 60 cents.” I hear “keep the change” a lot. Kimi refuses any offered tips by way of treats or food nibbles. But, she goes into a bow with her paws over her nose. What can I say? People are happy to buy another candy bar for later. Shameless.

Now, the point of this story is that I am going out of business. Partly this is from arthritis and growing blindness. Kimi will be twelve this spring and helping me around the house will be enough work. The sad reason is that the bus company complains about the delay of passengers getting on the bus at this one stop. It can arrive five minutes late, but their schedule delay is my fault. They would never blame Kimi, though. An executive of the Transit Company even suggested that my stand might be better staffed by an immigrant who didn't speak English. There are only coin-operated vending machines at the transfer hub. So, the magic is gone and us too with the flow of progress. Some folks will remember, though. That is enough.

Financially, I have no worries. I don’t have much time for magic now as I am writing a book. You see, the other “secret” is that people at a bus stop often gossip about their private lives and I had a finger on the pulse of popular trends. Company presidents exiting a bank and stopping to purchase a Wall Street Journal mindlessly chatted about insider deals. Attorneys grabbing a quick sandwich bragged about shady practices. None noticed the strange mumblings of the invisible guy who could have been making notes on a recorder. That wonder dog could have had a microphone in her harness. That head-tilt could have been a signal to me as to interesting things afoot. Truth is that I just have a good memory and a close-mouthed stockbroker. Picking pockets is illegal. Picking minds might be. Listening to random comments is not. No trickery. A magician just knows things the audience does not. Simple. The real magic is that Kimi and I were at 111 Emery at the same time as you were, and that you will tell a child of wondrous things that can happen every day.
Message: Posted by: Jumbopenny (Dec 10, 2021 04:05AM)
[quote]On Dec 10, 2021, funsway wrote:
[quote]On Dec 10, 2021, Jumbopenny wrote:
You're short on material in 2021 with something called the Internet? Seriously? [/quote]

yup, lots of tricks available. Finding good magic effects may take a little more work ;)

Very seriously - the real skill is discovering what your audience of the moment expects by way of magic, and then give them more.
Audience engagement skills, listening skills, voice control skills, enhanced empathic awareness, etc.

These are never found on the Internet in any year. [/quote]

Great magic is EVERYWHERE on the Internet. From performances by every great magician in the world to tutorials. All available at any time at the touch of a finger. Just ask Shin Lim who learned magic from YouTube. Long gone are the days where all we had were paper catalogs like Tannen's which weighed like 3 pounds.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 10, 2021 06:49AM)
[quote]On Dec 10, 2021, Jumbopenny wrote:
Long gone are the days where all we had were paper catalogs like Tannen's which weighed like 3 pounds. [/quote]


Oh, you meant places to BUY things. Yup, lots of tricks to buy, and even inspiration from watching great and poor video presentations.

Learning how to engage an audience, create astonishment and a memory of "must be magic' - not so much.

If greater availably and access could lead to being a better magician vicariously, then it would also lead for better grammar, vocabulary and wisdom.
Learning "what" and "how" is not enough. Good table-hopping requires understanding "why" and "when."

Just an opinion, of course. I can only rely on tens of thousands of live magic presentations that were all different.

I fully agree that using the internet is good place to start these days. But at some point "live" enters the equation.
Message: Posted by: Jumbopenny (Dec 10, 2021 03:15PM)
[quote]On Dec 10, 2021, funsway wrote:
[quote]On Dec 10, 2021, Jumbopenny wrote:
Long gone are the days where all we had were paper catalogs like Tannen's which weighed like 3 pounds. [/quote]


Oh, you meant places to BUY things. Yup, lots of tricks to buy, and even inspiration from watching great and poor video presentations.

Learning how to engage an audience, create astonishment and a memory of "must be magic' - not so much.

If greater availably and access could lead to being a better magician vicariously, then it would also lead for better grammar, vocabulary and wisdom.
Learning "what" and "how" is not enough. Good table-hopping requires understanding "why" and "when."

Just an opinion, of course. I can only rely on tens of thousands of live magic presentations that were all different.

I fully agree that using the internet is good place to start these days. But at some point "live" enters the equation. [/quote]


No. not just buying magic. Literally everything. From selecting, buying, to performing.

There are many sources of reviews like the Magic Café to help you select magic. There's no shortage of places to purchase magic online.

Performance? Watch AGT, Magic Castle, Penn & Teller, and multiple talented street performer channels all on Youtube. Cyril, Dynamo, David Blaine, Lu Chen and DMC all have multiple season series on close up magic. Not to mention many asian TV shows.

Tutorials? Alex Pandrea, Spidey, Rich Ferguson, Brian Brushwood, and Sankey among many others have Youtube tutorial channels.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. If with all this you can't come up with several dozen things to perform then magic is not for you. Find another interest, hobby, profession.

I'm not sure why you are bringing up this "live" thing. We are magicians. This is our interest, passion, and for some a profession. We sourse our magic then go out into the world and perform. We learn through performing. This is a given. George is a professional performing magician who is asking how to source magic. He's already doing the things you are talking about, and did not ask about.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 10, 2021 09:48PM)
Well, Jumbo, your statement of "I'm not sure why you are bringing up this "live" thing," shows why this is going nowhere.
I have been very clear why I feel that way - and why I am offering my opinions to help George in his search for alternatives to the repeat audience problem.
I do not see where he is asking, "how to source magic." You apparently think he is and challenged his question in "put down" way.

You seem to offer the opinion that "literally everything" can be found on the Internet. I do not, even if one had the time to dodge the ads pretending at a search engine.
More importantly, watching anything on a small electronic screen has a limited learning modality that does not truly represent what performing before a live audience will entail.
It also leads to a top down bias on "copying" rather that the incremental "bottom up" learning essential to creativity and audience engagement.
This and other "learning issues' related to the "illusion of knowledge" problem led to my going back to school and getting a Masters in Educational Technology
to add to several communication degrees. For me, what one a can "learn" by watching video snippets is "the tip of the iceberg" of what can be learned and never will be for many.

So, George and other readers here can consider both of our opinions and those of other posters and perhaps find something of value. That is good.

For you to judge that anyone should give up magic because they don't see learning the way you do is sad.

How can you say that George is "already doing the things I am talking about," and then say you don't understand what I am talking about.

But, you seem to know what he "did not ask" and what "our interests" are. So, I bow to your superior paranormal abilities here.
Most folks getting into performance magic today probably agree with you. Those repeat customers George is worried about probably would prefer watching a TV screen too.
A decade ago on the Café' I suggested table-hoppers should just carry a laptop to plunk on the table and stand back for a YouTube superior performance. More entertaining and no practice required.

Me, I watch the programs and YouTube offerings you mention and see a lot of skill demonstration and "gotcha" and puzzles - but very little magic. My failing, perhaps.
If I could just accept that what is seen by peering at the world through a toilet paper tube is the "true reality" I could quit creating new magic effects and just copy someone else.

I consider that George is interested in orchestrating a unique "experience of magic" for his observers, and that he has already watched all of the stuff on the Internet.
But, maybe he has taken your advice and given up magic.

Then again, maybe he is looking at an old favorite and asking, "How can I use this 'repeat customer issue' to advantage?"
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 11, 2021 08:34AM)
This thread makes me sad now.
Message: Posted by: Jumbopenny (Dec 11, 2021 12:42PM)
[quote]On Dec 11, 2021, Dannydoyle wrote:
This thread makes me sad now. [/quote]

Don't be sad Danny. Sometimes people who are passionate about the same subject have passionate "discussions." Although this one seems to have gone WAY off topic. :crazydude:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 11, 2021 02:34PM)
It is not a passionate discussion. It is more about proving one point of view is better, right, or somehow more valid than another.

The idea that the internet is the solution to all performance is sort of odd. It is not so for everyone. Yes we do have MORE options. Yes there is MORE information and this can be a good thing in many ways. But you seem to be putting forth the idea that it is the "right" way or the "only" way and this is sort of silly don't you think?

You put forth the success of Shin Lim as if it is the way every performer learns now as opposed to the way one has. Is that the ONLY way he learned or was it the way he started? Was his entire Las Vegas show put together ONLY from You Tube?

The internet can be a wonderful resource and it is access to things that is unparalleled in history. Nobody should argue that. But it is far from the "only" way to do things. I don't think this is what you are putting forth, but it sort of comes across a bit like that.

I get sad when "passion" becomes "I am right and you are wrong".
Message: Posted by: George50 (Dec 12, 2021 09:23PM)
Danny I agree with you when I started this post I didn't mean to start a fight! All I wanted was some advice how to improve my act. So everybody calm down and lets get back to helping each other.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 13, 2021 12:02PM)
OK - drop me an email and describe what impromptu effects you now perform using found objects,
and I'll send you an eBook of effects to compliment and add to your list.

ken@eversway.com
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 13, 2021 03:24PM)
[quote]On Dec 12, 2021, George50 wrote:
Danny I agree with you when I started this post I didn't mean to start a fight! All I wanted was some advice how to improve my act. So everybody calm down and lets get back to helping each other. [/quote]
I think you are on the right track even thinking about it.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Woolery (Dec 13, 2021 03:37PM)
Ken, I really enjoyed that story. Having read a lot of your stories in the time I’ve been here, your writing keeps getting better and I think this may be my favorite.

As to repertoire, I know I get an odd sort of tunnel vision sometimes. I’ll have practiced a particular trick until I feel ready to road test it, then in the moment all I can remember is something I’ve done a jillion times before. (Which means I may have the mechanics ready to road test, but the trick itself is not ready. I know.)

I’ll make a list of every trick I know, realize I have maybe a dozen, crack a book and say “oh, yeah, I know most of these, too.”

I have no real solution for the OP, but I can say what I’d love as a restaurant regular. If I’ve seen all your normal material, it would be great fun to have you say “I know you already know most of the stuff I do here, so maybe you can give me some feedback on a new piece I’m working on. It isn’t really ready to show, but if you don’t mind telling me what you think of a work in progress, I’d appreciate it.” That would feel awesome because it is like getting a sneak peek at something others haven’t seen. I may be unusual, but I’d love being the first to see a new trick.

Patrick
Message: Posted by: TomB (Dec 19, 2021 11:33PM)
Bands do that Patrick and it works. And then when it is on the radio you feel special that you heard it first.

Suzanne the magician has a great penguin live and she discusses repeat customers. The bottom line is if they like you, they like YOU. It's not about the tricks. And people can bring in friends to watch.
Message: Posted by: madmalone (Feb 24, 2022 06:33PM)
Develope new material to use in this situations... doesn't have to be all new... in fact all new its a bad idea!