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Topic: Matrixes - what to use instead of cards?
Message: Posted by: levitate (Jun 25, 2004 10:06PM)

I love matrix effects, but I'd rather cover the coins with something other than cards, and something fairly common. I was thinking like a drivers liscense or business card, but they aren't big enough to cover all four coins. Also, it needs to be somewhat flexible for certain pick up moves.


Message: Posted by: Jim Wilder (Jun 25, 2004 10:22PM)
How about your hands... hands are common. :)
I just started doing Shadow Coins. I enjoy the effect.
Message: Posted by: levitate (Jun 25, 2004 10:29PM)
I love those too, but with matrixes I can do all that with no extras or gaffs. Yes I know there are versions of shadow coins like that, but the ones I've seen just aren't as strong. Thanks,

Message: Posted by: cloneman (Jun 25, 2004 11:29PM)
Comp USA sells miniature Persian rug coasters a little bigger than the size of a playing card. When I first saw them I thought they might make for interesting Matrix covers, perhaps with a flying carpet patter (or flying coins as the case may be). They looked large enough to cover dollar coins.
Message: Posted by: Stephen Barney (Jun 26, 2004 12:07AM)
What about beer mats
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jun 26, 2004 12:47AM)
What's wrong with using cards? They work best.
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jun 26, 2004 03:55AM)
The hands of two spectators. :)

Come back when you're ready, and we'll compare methods.
Message: Posted by: Magicusa (Jun 26, 2004 06:20AM)
I use two Plastic cups with four big light up dices. The light up dices look good.
Message: Posted by: andre combrinck (Jun 26, 2004 06:36AM)
Like jwilder said,your hands.Shadow Coins or Chink-a-Chink.
Message: Posted by: mike gallo (Jun 26, 2004 07:17AM)
You can use business cards...just borrow 4 quarters. Or just have your cards printed oversize. Several people have published methods using dollar bills for covers. you can show a magazine that has coupons, explain that they are redeemable for cash...tear or cut them out, produce the coins from them then do your matrix. Look around your home study objects lying around...you'll come up with more ideas than you can imagine!

Message: Posted by: Sirakor (Jun 26, 2004 07:34AM)
Another vote for beer mats =)
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jun 26, 2004 09:12AM)
Check out "Top Billing" from Paul Cummins' recently re-released DVD "Up in Smoke".

This is a matrix routine that uses dollar bills for cover. This is a very practical matrix.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 26, 2004 09:21AM)
Mike Gallo says he's been using folded dollar bills for ages now.

Other folks have used their wallet, folded bits of paper, old IBM punched cards, envelopes, badge cases, larger plastic cards, postcards....

More to the point... what would you like to use, and FAR MORE importantly... what motivates the trick? The story usually has hints as to what the right props could be.
Message: Posted by: levitate (Jun 26, 2004 09:41AM)
I want it to seem very casual when I do a matrix, like "oh lets cover them with these", so something I'd have on me normally (or something that would seem fairly normal). I'm not looking for another method, I just want a replacement for using cards, I don't want it having any corralation to a card trick. I want to leave the impression I could have used anything, quarters and whatever just were common, and that it was anything but contrived.

As for motivation well, why do anything magical? But the basic presentation I give, has to do with a backfire. The coins never travelled at all.

The ideas you have given are good, and I think business cards may work, but I'm not sure yet.


Message: Posted by: Michael Bilkis (Jun 26, 2004 04:47PM)
Two borrowed twenties
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 26, 2004 05:14PM)
Napkins are not quite right for the dingle pick up/snap moves.

Again... what is the PRESENTATION/STORY for the btrick. The STORY usually suggests the right props.

If you were a NYer... I would suggest using quarters and a couple of metro-cards for a story about being late for work... and calling the office at every delay.

It's almost always about the story.... the story is what decides WHAT you have on you and HOW you use the stuff.
Message: Posted by: Michael Bilkis (Jun 26, 2004 08:24PM)
I like to load a jumbo coin under the cards at the end of the routine. It's a good kicker to explain that you use an extra coin and then reveal the jumbo coin.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 26, 2004 08:58PM)
It could kick you later when they think about extra stuff during a trick.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jun 27, 2004 12:30AM)
Michael, my quadra coin reverse matrix from my third set of lecture notes was originally taught with a penny, nickle, dime, and quarter, covered by 4 business cards. It works just fine!
Message: Posted by: JasonDean (Jun 27, 2004 01:56AM)
On 2004-06-26 04:55, Curtis Kam wrote:
The hands of two spectators. :)

Come back when you're ready, and we'll compare methods.

John Born and I have played with this idea for awhile now.
I think the idea of using the spectators hands is really cool! I would like to compare some ideas with you.
Message: Posted by: EricClark (Jun 27, 2004 08:33AM)
I seem to remember somebody using postcards and having some neat little story about traveling, etc.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 27, 2004 10:15AM)
That 'sombody' was likely David Roth and his story about Stonehenge.
Message: Posted by: Review King (Jun 27, 2004 06:57PM)
I do Doc Daley's last trick and then use those cards for Curtis's brilliant Inverted Matrix from his Silverado DVD.
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jun 27, 2004 07:47PM)
I'm with you 100% Chris. Curtis' Inverted Matrix is the only matrix bit that I do. It's very quick, to the point, and very visual.

Well, to be totally honest, I use John Kennedy's Impossible Matrix gimmick once in a while, it's good for all sorts transpo's.


Message: Posted by: martyk (Jun 27, 2004 10:33PM)
A visual killer, USING ANY 4 OBJECTS OR EVEN 4 different objects and ONLY the Hands. It's fun cause you will fool yhourslef with this conceit (a great word for it).
See Dean Dill's versiion. He'll tell you where to get it; I could, but heck, it is his routine.
Marty Kaplan

Need I add that--of course--it is totally impromptu (which Kennedy's first part is not and Ammar's Sahdow Coins are not)
Marty K
Message: Posted by: CardiniMan (Jun 27, 2004 10:58PM)
I love the postcards idea...a lot of good routining could come from that.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jun 27, 2004 11:02PM)
I believe back in the 70's Fred Bauman had a routine where he performed a coin assembly on spectator's hands. He used a concealment that is not used very often in coin magic nowadays, and his routine may be in his book (if you can still find a copy around).
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jun 28, 2004 04:29AM)
On 2004-06-27 02:56, JasonDean wrote:
On 2004-06-26 04:55, Curtis Kam wrote:
The hands of two spectators. :)

Come back when you're ready, and we'll compare methods.

John Born and I have played with this idea for awhile now.
I think the idea of using the spectators hands is really cool! I would like to compare some ideas with you.

A-Hah....I thought Mr. Born had been conspiciously quiet recently. Hmmm, PM me.
Message: Posted by: Steve Dusheck (Jun 28, 2004 12:59PM)
Your business card does not have to cover the four coins. It only has to cover the one coin that is about to magically appear.
I sometimes use 2 one dollar bills that have been cut in half. I ask if anyone has four half dollars. No one ever does so I get to say "Never mind I have four half dollars." and bring the four pieces of the 2 bills from my wallet. There is more to the routine of course but that's how the covers are introduced.
Best wishes,
Message: Posted by: owen.daniel (Jun 28, 2004 02:25PM)
Roth's idea is brilliant and the accompanying presentation is also worth merit.
As for Curtis' challenge...I am going to have to get thinking on this one.
Any more specific's or do you litterally just do a matrix effect with their hands? Sounds like a lot of back palming might be necessary here!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 28, 2004 03:10PM)
How do you intend to sneak all their hands under one card?

Do you thing they might notice if you used extra hands?
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jun 28, 2004 03:46PM)
Jonathan, of course, the last hand travels while it's in their hands!

Owen, there are a few ways one could go with this, and I'm not about to squelch any early explorations. I'm thinking of three different approaches that interest me:

1. The coins on the table assemble, ala the Roth routine, only the spectator's hands cover the coins, not yours.

2. Four borrowed hands cover the coins, which assemble ala Matrix. (No creativity points for suggesting a backfire ending, although it would still be worth doing)

3. It is interesting to consider a one-cover assembly, where you keep changing the cover to make things easier to follow. Perhaps you start by borrowing the spectator's driver's license, then something translucent, then her hand.

But that's just me, you may be interested in exploring other avenues, and more power to you.

P.S. I like the idea of using Roger Klause's "Whisper" gaff for a finale, where all the coins vanish off the back of the spectator's hand, leaving one under her hand, and the other three back where they started.
Message: Posted by: John Born (Jun 28, 2004 04:10PM)
Whatup Curtis!

Yeah, Jason Dean and I put some quality work into this concept. We considered adding our ideas on this in the upcoming DVD's, however, we decided to wait. I can share some of these the next time I see you.

Using your own hands, or the hands of another is extremely magical. Using cards, napkins, and miniature magic carpets is selling any effect of this nature short of its potential...unless you simply like coming across as a "clever coin concealer". At this state in sleight-of-hand, using cards or any kind of covering device is usually used by those who can't perform this type of routine otherwise and pull it off like it should be done (there are a few exceptions). If you have the technical ability, why not present your art through you...as a beatuiful gift (using simply your hands...or better yet, under the hands of your spectator). This is more direct...less to follow, and less confusion. You have now raised the bar from "a trick with 4 coins and 4 cards" to a magical happening in which coins happen to be involved. Your spectators should not be puzzled to how you accomplished this clever feat. They should feel as though they have experienced something special with you and from you..a piece of ART. From that point every time he/she thinks of magic, he/she is reminded of that wonderful experience you brought fourth. This type of experience can hardly be accomplished through the use of napkins "to cover the coins" or an accompanying story about the magic carpets.

John B. Born
Message: Posted by: 007mystic (Jun 29, 2004 08:57AM)
I use mini bykes and jumbo cions. Cover the mini's with the cions and go. Final load box for mini cards.
Message: Posted by: owen.daniel (Jun 29, 2004 09:46AM)
I am going to go away and think hard! I like the last suggestion of the routine becoming progressively clearer...Maybe an ending might be to say that it is the table which is making it confusing, place the three coins which have already travelled into their hand. Snap and the one remaining coin vanishes, to appear in their hand (i won't give a method away because any one can read this...but I would use a technique similar to that taught in AOA 2, in PDQ).
This slightly detracts from the point, making the ending into more of a coins across.

It is an interesting idea to make the cards jump instead of the coins, but is this routine for a lay or magician audience. If for those who don't know matrix then why change the routine... Using Jumbo coins is not something they are used to seeing...let alone mini cards. If for a magician audience then this is a humorous play on the classic.

however I think the use of the spectator's hands is good for a magician or lay audience. People love magic to happen in their own hands (or in this case under), so they will appreciate this more than using cards. For a magician audience, then they will prefer this too as they know that it is far harder to load under a persons hand etc.

A final point...How about performing it as a two phase routine. At the start you have two people with their hands opposite each other. A coin on top of each hand. One by one the coins penetrate through their hands to land underneath them on the table. Then with the hands covering again, they all migrate to one corner!

Maybe a post should be started along these lines in the Triple Dare forum!
Message: Posted by: levitate (Jun 29, 2004 09:50AM)
Hands are the way to go, but under a specs hands? that's insane! I'd love a method like that, but for "impromptu" purposes, I've decided to go with something I carry in my wallet - business cards (and a metro ticket).

Message: Posted by: Justin Hart (Jun 29, 2004 10:42AM)
So all that great brain-storming was boiled down to one thought...I guess spectator hands aren't impromtu enough for some people. Imagine that! ;)

Thanks guys (Townsend, Kam, Born, Owen,) for all your thoughts, time, and dedication to this topic and trying to help others. I know I have ideas running now.
Message: Posted by: harris (Jun 30, 2004 12:52PM)
John B, and Jason the Dean do awesome coin and hand work. Jason just won the Ring 129 Close up Magician of the Year for the 3rd year in a row. John placed 2nd I believe at the BIG IBM event. Are either of them competing in St. Louis or Cleveland??

Break a wand if you are!

I am still doing matrix the old fashion way.
My kicker for this and other set nearly normal routines is producing about 16-20 coins.(without using "explosion")

I like the idea of mini "flying carpets".

Harris Deutsch
Laughologist and "old school coin guy"
Message: Posted by: Magicmaven (Jul 13, 2004 07:05PM)
Hey Levitate, I just use cards, but you can keep it strictly money and just use dollar bills, I know some people who use them, and they work great.
Message: Posted by: mike gallo (Jul 13, 2004 09:20PM)
Four borrowed hands cover the coins


Do you return the hands when you are done ;)?

Message: Posted by: levitate (Jul 13, 2004 09:22PM)
Well, I've finally decided on something to use. I figure the coins are travelling, so the presentation centers around that. Depending on the version, I either use a couple metro tickets, or 4 stubs of airline tickets. When I do matrixes I usually use quarters so they cover everything just fine. I appreciate all the input you all have given.