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Topic: Hypnosis
Message: Posted by: aamwood (Aug 30, 2004 10:43AM)
Hi friends,

I have some help and explanation about the below issue:

I am more into card magic. Nowadays, I would like to learn more about hypnosis, as I have read about some very bad crimes on our local newspaper.

On our local newspaper, it said that a woman was shopping and then suddenly a stranger (a man) tapped her shoulder, and then he started to ask her if she could show him the direction to a certain address.

To make the story short, the woman ended up giving her ATM card and money to the stranger. After she came home she realized that she has just been hypnotized by a stranger. She went straight to the police station to report the crime that just occurred.

A couple of days later, the same crime happened again to another woman.

My question is this: is it really hypnosis? How could that happened so fast? I am afraid that it could happen to me or my family members or friends.

Since I am always curious about anything (another reason why I learn magic tricks ), where can I learn about this stuff (I am not sure if this is hypnosis or not)? I don't want to do any crime with it. I just want to know the secret and how to avoid being victimized. Is it some kind of stage hypnosis?

Any explanation is appreciated .

Aamwood - Indonesia
Message: Posted by: alexhui (Aug 30, 2004 11:23AM)
Aamwood,

I don't think the concerned news have any direct connection with hypnosis, since hypnosis does not 'allow' to do such feats.

But I think if the news is real, one of the explanations is that the stranger can use some very good psychological technique to obtain the information. It is quite possible.

Alex Hui
Message: Posted by: MikeDes (Aug 30, 2004 11:28AM)
I can guarantee you there is something else going on here other than hypnosis.

I have studied hypnosis for two years and here are some plain truths:

You can't be hypnotised against your will.
The subject MUST be cooperative in the process.

The subconscious, although less inhibited, is more self-preservationist than the conscious mind.

You CAN'T hypnotise someone to do something they are against doing normally, i.e., steal, kill, jump off a building, etc.

Don't worry, be happy,

Mike
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Aug 30, 2004 12:16PM)
Hi Mike,

Apologies, but the late Martin Orne (UPenn) did a few studies that showed people, when hypnotized, do indeed follow suggestions to harm other people. Moreover, while I agree that you can't be hypnotized against your will, you can be hypnotized without knowing it.

However, for the sake of this thread, it's most likely one of three things:

1. A hoax story, like stealing kidneys for the black market.

2. A fake story, where the victim was bilked and felt stupid about it, so they file a fictitious claim against the criminal.

3. The real thing, but it would most likely be a very persistent criminal who searches for people who are easily intimidated or are very trusting - to a fault (and there are many such people, though they comprise a very insignificant part of the population).

Best,

James.
Message: Posted by: wiseman (Aug 30, 2004 02:42PM)
Sounds a little like this:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=71340&forum=15

// w
Message: Posted by: discjockey (Aug 30, 2004 08:23PM)
According to Kenton, the person's morals are embedded in the brain. He knows not to touch a stove that has fire expelling from it. It seems like it would be able to happen, but I don't think it's probable. Perhaps, he hypnotized her to think she gave him the ATM card while he pick-pocketed her instead.
Message: Posted by: aamwood (Aug 30, 2004 08:38PM)
Thanks for the explanation.

Yes, I think something is missing on the news. May be the stranger did something else that we don't know.

Where should I start to learn about this knowledge? DVD is preferred.

I am working with some police officers to stop such of this crime.

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Mezmer (Aug 30, 2004 09:22PM)
I have studied hypnosis for 10 years and worked as a professional hypnotist for many years.

A subject under trance will not break his moral code. Hypnosis is the absence of the conscious mind which acts as a filter so suggestions cannot enter our subconscious mind. The subconscious mind believes anything that gets to it. Thus the Conscious mind acts as a filter so suggestions do not enter our subconscious.

Whenever a subject is in trance and asked to do a task against their moral code (something stupid), the conscious mind will come in and break the trance. Remember hypnosis is all about trusting the hypnosis. Any break in this trust will result in a suggestion with no "anchor".
Message: Posted by: Seth speaks (Aug 31, 2004 12:18AM)
Hmm... yes, but this presupposes that the immoral act was the result of a direct hypnotic command, instead of an indirect suggestion. Most of the "studies" done on hypnosis have been on the basis of the authoritarian style, and that's where we get nonsense like "some people can't be hypnotized," and so forth. Have you ever been driving along a stretch of road, transfixed by the rhythmic lines on the asphalt, and realized you missed your exit three miles back? Did you give your "consent" to that?

Theories have been devised around the idea that while in trance a person could be convinced that the immoral act in question WAS a part of their moral code, by clever languaging. For instance, the subject might never murder someone in cold blood, but they certainly might kill if, by means of suggestion, they felt it was in self-defense or defense of their child.

When it comes to something as ephemeral as hypnosis, we should be careful about proclaiming absolutes -- "such-and-such is impossible under hypnosis" or "this-and-that only happens in hypnosis..." As a clinical hypnotherapist myself, I find it amusing that various people speak very confidently about exactly what the "subconscious" is, what it's capable of, how it differs from the "unconscious" or the metaconscious or superconscious or collective unconscious, etc.

This may or may not be true, but the fact is no one has ever demonstrated conclusively that there even IS such a thing as the "subconscious" or "unconscious" in the sense that we use them here, as distinct and separate states of consciousness. For that matter, the definition (or even existence) of hypnosis itself varies depending on who you talk to and what they believe.

I've noticed that many people into NLP like to speak of the unconscious as being a protective mechanism, with the person's best interest at heart. This is a New Agey concept, and it certainly may be true, but there is little hard evidence of it (read some books by Michael Yapko, PhD). If a person can be convinced, persuaded, manipulated or fooled while fully conscious, there is no reason to suppose that being hypnotized creates a magical barrier that prevents the same from happening while in trance.

For one thing, since the hypnotic state tends to be one of focus and imagination, it is astoundingly easy to create the seeds of false memories. Unskilled therapists do it all the time, even without a formal trance, as do other authority figures such as law enforcement officials. Suggestion is extremely powerful, and hypnosis, whatever it may be altogether, is only one method of planting it.

As to whether there is actually some brainy thug going around hypnotizing people so he can commit theft while they're in trance... well, that is highly unlikely. But many people can be persuaded by some kind of suggestion, even their own. Crime victims can, newspaper journalists can -- even hypnotists and magicians can...

Seth
Message: Posted by: aamwood (Aug 31, 2004 09:16AM)
Hi Seth, you made a good point. I agree that someone still have a great chance to be fooled, manipulated or persuaded while fully conscious. This is a good argument. I think at some level hypnosis can also do the same thing.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Aug 31, 2004 09:31AM)
There is now thinking along the lines that states of hypnosis can be used conversationally. That language structured in certain ways can bypass the critical faculty and activate parts of the mind in the same way as overt trance inductions.

I suppose it is possible that trance like states could induced out of confusion or fear. Even if the thief wasn't skilled in hypnosis.

I would imagine that most of us have had experiences where we have done something or fufilled someones request and didn't want to. Only to wonder why we did later..
Message: Posted by: Seth speaks (Aug 31, 2004 06:38PM)
Yes, conversational hypnosis and "zero trance" hypnosis seem to be the newest paradigms, and they are really fascinating. Of course, Erickson is usually referenced as the father of the conversational style -- he would often induce trance and engage in other changework by simply telling involved stories full of metaphors. (Detractors say he was just utilizing boredom as an induction, but either way, it worked!)

Metaphor and clever language can be very effective in inducing trance, especially if we just drop the outdated views of trance as zombie-like catatonia, and simply look at it as focused imagination.

And now that you mention it, fear certainly could be a strong trance inducer. Have you ever been sitting alone in your home watching TV late at night, when suddenly you hear a sound from elsewhere in the house -- a small creak or knock that shouldn't be there? Suddenly your body freezes in place, your eyes widen, your pounding heart blocks out the TV noise, every sensory input you have is focused into a tight point -- that small sound. That's trance if there ever was one.

If this thug was stepping in and scaring these people while they were doing something else, then politely asking for their money while they're still in a state of shock, then disappearing, that might qualify as classic pattern interrupt to induce a quick trance, followed by suggestion. IF so, I think it's doubtful the thug was conscious of doing it, but he could certainly be construed as a hypnotist after the fact... kind of interesting to consider.

Seth
Message: Posted by: shrink (Aug 31, 2004 08:47PM)
Fear or any heightened emotional state will render you more suggestable. Stage hypnotists uses this all the time.
Message: Posted by: Seth speaks (Sep 1, 2004 12:19AM)
Very interesting. I've never done stage hypnosis, but I've had many clients tell me not to make them cluck like a chicken.

I remember in the book "Monsters and Magical Sticks" that Steven Heller talks about a man with chronic pain from metastasized cancer whom nothing had helped. When they first met, Heller used terror to induce trance by smacking him in the head, ordering him to shut up, and telling him he was going to stomp on his foot and break all the bones.

The man was cowering, terrified. Then he told him to close his eyes and relax, because he couldn't hurt someone with their eyes closed. The man did, and dropped into deep trance like a stone, to escape the fear, and Heller was able to do some impressive pain control work.
Message: Posted by: majhra (Sep 1, 2004 01:23AM)
Anything can be used to direct your attention (be more suggestible). Just reading this sentence directs your attention to your big left toe.

Now, using strong emotions like fear, anger and especially confusion assists in that process by enabling the 'hypnotist' to make larger jumps in attention.So not just from not being aware to being aware of your big left toe, but from being comfortable to hand over your wallet.

;-)

Enjoy,

M.
Message: Posted by: Zanther (Sep 2, 2004 04:46AM)
I haven't been able to figure this one out. Most people who study hypnosis are told "all hypnosis is self-hypnosis" and you can't make someone do something they don't want to do.

Perhaps those are just limiting beliefs, though.

I doubt the story is a hoax, as this happened to an aunt of mine. She came out of the bank, guy asked her an unrelated question. She came to in a daze and realized she had just handed over her purse to him.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Sep 2, 2004 04:50AM)
Some stage hypnotists know that certain things can be done with certain individuals that go beyond what they claim. Otherwise no one would volunteer.

There are a percentage of people out there who are so suggestable they would do almost anything. Not everyone but a small percentage.
Message: Posted by: KJ (Sep 2, 2004 05:42AM)
While I don't know much about hypnosis I can add this:

It sounds like you are talking about the body going into "shock" like when you get hit by a car. Your mind locks up thinking only of what just happened, you lose some motor skills, feel dizzy, and would probably do anything someone asked you to do.

What makes this interesting, is you are implying that someone could be put in shock by one quesion. So I am going to guess that whatever it is these people are asking must be pretty cool. It also sounds like this would be a bad thing to do with people with high blood pressure....
Message: Posted by: Gary D (Sep 2, 2004 06:47AM)
This is a very interesting post.
I'm very interested in all this stuff about pattern interrupts and trance induction.
Message: Posted by: Nickelsun (Sep 2, 2004 06:56AM)
I am also very interested in this issue of pattern interupts.

Does anybody have a view of how effective they are when addressing soemeone in other than their native language?

Having spent some time learning foreign languages I know from experience that I'm struggling to follow the content of any conversation without even noticing many subtleties. I would have thought that you need to be tuned into these in oredr for pattern interupts to be effective.

Perhaps some of our excellent non-native speakers of English could comment.

Cheers
Nickelsun
Message: Posted by: shrink (Sep 2, 2004 07:09AM)
Its not just the question its the context that will also have an effect.
Message: Posted by: discjockey (Sep 3, 2004 03:35PM)
Perhaps a memory wipe would be possible, but its only for short term.
Message: Posted by: True-Gossiper (Dec 11, 2004 10:34PM)
Aamwood, yes there are A LOT of those 'hypnosis crime' happening in Indonesia, and I believe they're not the real hypnosis as is stage or clinical one.

Up to this point, I personally view that they're actually a combination of conning, good theatrical appearance and plain robbery. And the filed report by the victims are questionable too cos they're very much influenced by the Indonesian myth of occult magic such as voodoo (or 'gendam' in Bahasa).

I was trying to write an ebook about this subject too a couple of times ago, but got stalled since I need more data to make the material more convincing.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Dec 12, 2004 05:59AM)
[quote]
On 2004-08-30 13:16, procyonrising wrote:
Hi Mike,

Apologies, but the late Martin Orne (UPenn) did a few studies that showed people, when hypnotized, do indeed follow suggestions to harm other people. Moreover, while I agree that you can't be hypnotized against your will, you can be hypnotized without knowing it.

However, for the sake of this thread, it's most likely one of three things:

1. A hoax story, like stealing kidneys for the black market.

2. A fake story, where the victim was bilked and felt stupid about it, so they file a fictitious claim against the criminal.

3. The real thing, but it would most likely be a very persistent criminal who searches for people who are easily intimidated or are very trusting - to a fault (and there are many such people, though they comprise a very insignificant part of the population).

Best,

James.
[/quote]

James, just for the record, the Orne studies were seriously flawed. They were performed after the volunteers were given the usual American Psycological Association information sheet on how experimental volunteers are to be handled and the issue of safety for all concerned is stressed throughout that document, making it a confounding variable for the tests. Thus, they believed the guns were loaded with blanks before they were hypnotized and the control groups in follow up studies showed that this was the case.

Secondly, with regard to the acid test (throwing "acid" at the target person) several of the volunteers and some of the experimenters stated clearly that the "invisible glass" wasn't invisible when viewed from several different angles.

Sorry to disagree, but those studies are currently being used as examples of flawed experimental design in several psych programs in several universities across the USA.

As to the news reports being fake or a cover story for being gullible - you are probably right. Many people will try to blame some sort of hypnosis instead of admitting that they got taken by a con artist.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.H. (Certified Hypnotherapist, National Guild of Hypnotists)
Message: Posted by: Ian Broadmore (Dec 12, 2004 06:33AM)
I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation. They have to WANT to be hypnotised. Now I am going to contradic twenty years of clinical experience you can hypnotise ANYONE (except alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will. (But its not hypnosis). I am not going to elaborate here due to ethical reasons Ian. MBHA, SQHP MIAH, NLP D.Hyp-Psy.
Message: Posted by: bsmith (Dec 12, 2004 08:42AM)
Hypnosis is a belief system that the subject and hypnostist participate in. If the 'subject' (willing or unwilling) are under the belief that they have no control over what is happening, wouldn't that belief system cause them to do things against their will?

Wouldn't the seed of suggestion be planted when people watch the news and here stories of people that have been robbed? Viewers at home might say "It happened to these people so it could happen to me" creating a (false, but true to them) belief system for themselves about hyposis.

Ian, your authority on the subject is credible.
[quote]
"I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation."
[/quote]
That is enough for the readers of this thread to know that it is true, but what about the people that don't have the advantage of reading this thread or talking to a hypnotist? What if the only thing they know about hypnosis is what they hear through these stories?

Respectfully,
Robertson
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Dec 12, 2004 12:46PM)
[quote]
James, just for the record, the Orne studies were seriously flawed. They were performed after the volunteers were given the usual American Psycological Association information sheet on how experimental volunteers are to be handled and the issue of safety for all concerned is stressed throughout that document, making it a confounding variable for the tests. Thus, they believed the guns were loaded with blanks before they were hypnotized and the control groups in follow up studies showed that this was the case.
[/quote]

Hi Lee. I want to believe you here, I really do. However, I need you to clarify a couple of things for me.

1. There's no such thing as a "usual APA information sheet." If you can let me know where you got that information, as well as what exactly it's supposed to be, I'm sure we can figure this out.

2. Orne didn't use a gun. (Where are you getting this information?)

[quote]
Secondly, with regard to the acid test (throwing "acid" at the target person) several of the volunteers and some of the experimenters stated clearly that the "invisible glass" wasn't invisible when viewed from several different angles.
[/quote]

Lee, this isn't considered a major point that would preclude a study from being published. After all, if that did come up in the debriefing, who's to say that they couldn't have removed the glass? (You'd actually be coding intent rather than the actual action; did the subject make an effort to go over to the glass?) Moreover, Orne did several different studies looking at the same thing, so it becomes increasingly difficult to argue that the effect isn't true.

[quote]
Sorry to disagree, but those studies are currently being used as examples of flawed experimental design in several psych programs in several universities across the USA.
[/quote]

It's fine to disagree, but really? I'm not some Orne loyalist, but I'm pretty sure the opposite is true, that a lot of researchers actually praise Orne's originality and innovative approaches to hypnosis research. (I mean, people are still using his real-simulator paradigm...)

[quote]
As to the news reports being fake or a cover story for being gullible - you are probably right. Many people will try to blame some sort of hypnosis instead of admitting that they got taken by a con artist.
[/quote]

Yeah... I've always thought that a good con makes the mark confused and disoriented. When they come out of that and realize what went wrong, it's easy to see how they can attribute it to hypnosis. (Just a theory though...)

Best,
James.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 12, 2004 01:45PM)
The way I see hypnosis is through an extended definition. If someone is confused and disorientated in such a way that it renders them either more suggestable or unable resist a "command" then for me and my definition it is actually hypnosis.

While I also agree it may be that other explanations such as hoax or hiding embarressment may be just as valid I personally believe that the orgininal claim is well within the realms of possibility.

Within the definition I use to describe hypnosis it is a process that is happening all the time.

Teachers, political leaders, counselors, parents,religeous leaders, Authority figures are all hypnotists without realising it.

Shrink
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Dec 12, 2004 04:50PM)
Right, I'm not going to go into it but I have a unique condition allowing me to understand the subconscious better then most people, this is not an ego statment, my condition is a curse. As a result I know more about hypnosis then is even in some books. For moral reasons I'm going to allow the reasons and answers to above quesations already stated, to stand and only say that some of the information stated in this thred is entirely misdirection put in place to protect people.

H.W
Message: Posted by: hkwiles (Dec 12, 2004 05:25PM)
Here is a little anecdote that will interest you and I would welcome any serious comments.This is perfectly true.

This summer I was out in the garden on a redhot day doing some serious sorting out.I dug all the boarders and then started on the hard graft.. digging over a rough area at the top of the garden. I slogged at this all morning with out hardly stopping.
Around dinner time my daughter came over was was on the sunbed trying to get a tan along with my wife. I took a short break as I was quite whacked and had a sandwich and a drink...

here the important bit and what after 5 months seems very relevant.....

I went over to my daughter and pretended to hypnotise her whilst she had her eyes shut..."relax..imagine you are on sunbed on a beautiful beach... listen to the sea..."etc etc. she started laughing and said not to be stupid.I wandered on to the lawn and lay face down , shut my eyes and started thinking about the scene to myself. After only a minute or so (so my wife tells me)
I got up went back to the top of the garden and started slogging away, suddenly I stopped..looked at my dirty hands and said "whose put all this rubbish here?" I walked down to the borders and looked down at the tidy view and said"whose done all this?" I couldn't remember any thing.
My wife rang the hospital and told them it looked as if I had lost my memory.She took me inside , told me to wash my hands and change into some decent trousers and shoes and then my son took me to the hospital.
They asked me my name , where I lived etc all which I answered correctly, and decided I would have to stay in overnight. I had another Doctor do a few tests ask me who was Queen, when the Coronation was , who was Prime Minister. he said that four hours was a long time for it to have been sun stroke.
When my lad came, I asked what the fooball score was for my Team (Leeds United) and he told me they had lost.
"Have we been relegated I asked?"
"Yes" he said"but we knew that a couple of weeks ago"
Any way I stayed overnight and the next day was OK and so sent home and told I would probably be called back to see a neurologist and maybe have a scan.I didn't (haven't yet)had a call back and am OK.
Now.....as things have come back to me, I remember being totally aware of what was going on but feeling strange and not caring , just did whatever was asked of me .. didn't ask why I was going to hospital, why I wasn't driving.just complied.
I now believe that at the point in time earlier that I said was important ..that I actually hypnotised myself whilst being tired out and in a state of complete relaxation (near exhaustion to be exact).do you think this could be the case?

Howard
Message: Posted by: bobser (Dec 12, 2004 06:38PM)
Hey 'hkwiles', don't fret, you're merely going through what some people call: 'a senior moment'. You'll get many more from here on in... don't worry about it.

[quote]
On 2004-12-12 07:33, Ian Broadmore wrote:
I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation. They have to WANT to be hypnotised. Now I am going to contradict twenty years of clinical experience you can hypnotise ANYONE (except alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will. (But its not hypnosis). I am not going to elaborate here due to ethical reasons Ian. MBHA, SQHP MIAH, NLP D.Hyp-Psy.
[/quote]

Neither I, nor I'm sure anybody else, understood a word of what you're talking about. Is it at all possible for you to be a little more bold?
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 12, 2004 06:40PM)
I don't know but when Luke Jermay first released his 7 Decpetions and Derren had his show where he made members of the public forget where they were travelling to, I was playing around with forgetting techniques, writing language to test out later etc. I was in town and had to leave the bar to get some money out of the cash line. A number which Ive hasd for at least five years I couldn't remember. I was so embaressed I walked around for a while before returning. I had to borrow some cash pretending that the cash line was out of order. Next day I woke up and knew the number immediately but for the whole evening before I couldn't remember it for the first and only time in all those years..
Message: Posted by: A.G. (Dec 12, 2004 07:47PM)
One too many?
Message: Posted by: majhra (Dec 12, 2004 11:06PM)
Shrink,

Ahh the joys of being a hypnotist and knowing how powerful suggestions really are... ;-)

Enjoy,
M.
Message: Posted by: bsmith (Dec 13, 2004 06:58AM)
Nice brain fart, Shrink. On a similar note, I've been paying a lot of visits to my grandmother who is becoming more and more forgetful each day. I sometimes find myself forgeting things along with her (due to our rapport?). Not to long ago she looked at me and asked "What is my phone number?" This is a number that I have known since I was a child but for some reason I couldn't remember it! I got that feeling like it was on the "tip of my tongue" but I couldn't retrieve the information. I think her "senior moments" are contagious.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 13, 2004 11:24AM)
[quote]
On 2004-12-12 20:47, gerardi wrote:
One too many?
[/quote]

This was at the beggining of the evening I had no drink. I don't drink much anyway. I never get drunk..
Message: Posted by: Ian Broadmore (Dec 13, 2004 12:00PM)
Bobser, no I wont elaborate for the reasons stated!!!!
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Dec 13, 2004 01:52PM)
I had learned the forgetting tecneque as a pre test method origionally to use to find subjects for hypnosis, you make people forget their own name, or other bits and pieces to se eif they would make good hypnotic subjects.

H.W
Message: Posted by: bobser (Dec 13, 2004 02:40PM)
[quote]
On 2004-12-12 07:33, Ian Broadmore wrote:
I am a clinical hypnotherapist of over twenty years standing and carry a senior qualification in hypnotherapy practice, am a member of the British hypnotherapy association, and the GHSC. I can tell you now you cannot hypnotise any body against their will, it is self hypnosis, empathy and co-operation. They have to WANT to be hypnotised. Now I am going to contradic twenty years of clinical experience you can hypnotise ANYONE (except alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will. (But its not hypnosis). I am not going to elaborate here due to ethical reasons Ian. MBHA, SQHP MIAH, NLP D.Hyp-Psy.
[/quote]

Are you saying you CAN or CANNOT hypnotize (apart from alcoholics, drug users or mentally impaired people) against their will?
And if your "not going to elaborate"(your words in your last post), then these words of yours, with respect , are of no value in this ROOM.
The majority of us here are professional mentalists which I believe, again with respect, is a notch above a mere hypnotist, which lets face it can be learned in an hour (TOPS). So c'mon Ian, no mor B**L S**t... you are playing with the big boys here, keep it real or fade away!
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 13, 2004 02:58PM)
C'mon Bobster, Hypnosis can't be learned in an hour.....and a good stage hypnotist is quite difficult to find. There are however many below average ones around (they may think they are good)which is one of the reasons the market crashed here.

I would imagine there are many below average mentalists around to because it really takes more than performing a few effects in order to be a good performer.

Hypnosis can be highly skilled even more so than mentalism depending on where you want to take it...

I think Ian was suggesting that there is more than what is generally suggested when it comes to hypnosis.

It may be that there is a cover up as to what can and cannot be done with hypnosis. I personaly believe that there are some people so suggestable you can get them to do just about anything...
Message: Posted by: bobser (Dec 13, 2004 08:15PM)
Okay... we have a contextual argument here.(don't we always with regard to the written word?)
I said what I said because it's true, I could very easily teach someone how to hypnotize a third party in less than one hour.
Your argument, which I would concede to, would be on the quality of the teaching within such a short period.
However, in practice they would still be able to hypnotize the third party... no doubt.
I remember reading a 'how to' book, valued at only £5, in the late 70s and going out and immediately hypnotizing by first sitter. This story of course is not unique, and doesn't apply to my talents, merely how dangerously easy hypnosis is to learn.
After that I spent £700 learning how to be a hypnotherapist, only to discover it was all in the wee book at only £5!!!
I'm not sure if I agree with you on the reasons how the market crashed in the UK being due to the qualitative state of the hypnotists. Your own immediate argument of poor mentalism supports my argument. ie: the mentalist market hasn't crashed.

My argument (philosphical of course) with Ian is that I didn't understand where the ethical reasons entered the arena with regard to his 'non-elaboration'.
Is he saying you CAN hypnotize anyone(alcoholics, drug users, mentally impaired excluded)against their will but it's NOT actually hypnosis?
And if he IS then I suggest in that case it has to be something ELSE other than hypnosis.
I'd like to know what he means.
In all fairness to Ian, I do understand that this (the Café) is not the best medium for discharging ones thoughts, and I do hope no offence was taken.
Sorry Ian...late at night...couple whiskys etc...I'm sure you understand.
Message: Posted by: John LeBlanc (Dec 13, 2004 08:35PM)
[quote]
On 2004-12-13 21:15, bobser wrote:
I said what I said because it's true, I could very easily teach someone how to hypnotize a third party in less than one hour.
Your argument, which I would concede to, would be on the quality of the teaching within such a short period.
However, in practice they would still be able to hypnotize the third party... no doubt.[/quote]

I believe those are three accurate statements.


[quote]My argument (philosphical of course) with Ian is that I didn't understand where the ethical reasons entered the arena with regard to his 'non-elaboration'.
Is he saying you CAN hypnotize anyone(alcoholics, drug users, mentally impaired excluded)against their will but it's NOT actually hypnosis?
And if he IS then I suggest in that case it has to be something ELSE other than hypnosis.
I'd like to know what he means.[/quote]

Ever see Dr. Erickson work?

My two favorite quotes regarding hypnosis:

Bandler: There is no such thing as hypnosis.
Grinder: Everything is hypnosis.

And both men are right. Still, after all these years.

John LeBlanc
Message: Posted by: bobser (Dec 14, 2004 01:26PM)
Can't argue with any of that.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 14, 2004 02:49PM)
Bobser I realise the limitations of the Café and getting over what we mean is not easy. However going by your definition of teaching someone how to hypnotise in an hour. I could say I could teach someone how to be a mentalist in 10- 15 mins. And they could fool someone else. Mabey in less time.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Dec 14, 2004 04:59PM)
Okay Shrink. Fairnuff.Can't argue with any of that either