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Topic: Hypnosis or Magic Trick?
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 20, 2004 05:04AM)
Hi all
I wonder if somebody could point me in the right direction.

The other night I watch a magician put a volunteer into a ‘heightened sense of synchronicity’ he looked very relaxed and had his eyes closed (The volunteer not the magician). From that point every time the magician lifted his arm up the volunteer would raise his arm as well, likewise when the magician lowered his arm so would the volunteer. It seemed to me the volunteer had no way of knowing when the magician raised or lowered his arm.

I was wondering if this is a form of hypnosis or is it a magic trick??

I am currently reading ‘The New Encyclopaedia of Stage Hypnotism’ But I have not read any thing about this yet.

Cheers Ben
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Sep 20, 2004 05:25AM)
Probably a magic trick (depends on who the magician was and what they were doing), but sounds a lot like an effect I'm working on - done entirely with suggestion.

Who were you watching?
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 20, 2004 05:44AM)
Hi procyonrising

Thanks for the quick reply.
I was watching ‘Close Encounters’ with Keith Barry.

I believe Derren Brown as done something similar.
Message: Posted by: Mesaboogie (Sep 20, 2004 06:21AM)
This IS Derren Browns Lift.
Message: Posted by: PaulEverson (Sep 20, 2004 06:25AM)
Just to put the last post in context.

Derren Brown created this effect, and, as it is unpublished and such a signature piece for him, I am gobsmacked that Keith Barry has the nerve to perform it, nevermind on TV.

Why not have a go at coming up with something NEW guys? Go on, you might surprise yourselves...
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Sep 20, 2004 06:55AM)
Chris Carter has a killer routine that is like this very one. Its a stage variant, and a MUST see!
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 20, 2004 07:25AM)
So are we saying this an illusion or hypnotic technique?
It’s a shame Derren is not still here, then again he probably wouldn’t tell anyway.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Sep 20, 2004 07:25AM)
If I may respond to Dr. Zodiac's post, what I do is NOT lift. It's actually more like a reversal of lift. I and a spectator stand several feet apart with our backs facing each other, and I am blindfolded. The spectator is instructed that he is to slowly raise and lower either arm to the side, and he is to do this three times. Each time he may wait as long as he wants to raise, and raise the arm as high or as low as he wants. Each time he does, my corresponding arm moves in tandem with his. The end result looks a lot like the 'mirroring' excercizes done in acting classes, except that I and the spectator are facing away from each other, and I am blindfolded.

I'm sorry to make this description so belabored. I just wanted to make it clear that I haven't 'lifted' Lift, but rather am doing something different. In my opinion, Lift is Derren Brown's, and should be left to him.

By the way, Mesaboogie is right, what Sickpuppy saw is Lift.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 20, 2004 08:19AM)
Whilst doing a search on google for the ‘Lift’ routine I came across this website http://www.hypnotorious.com/hypnotrickscourse.htm It looks a bit cheesy to me but what do you guys think? I don’t think I would want to hand over £177 to them for this course.
If any body has then please let me know if it was worth it.

Cheers Ben
Message: Posted by: david_a_whitehead (Sep 20, 2004 08:31AM)
Ummm, Lift is not public domain. Try doing something else, there is a ton of great stuff out there for you to look into. And according to the orginal write-up, Lift is done using hypnotic induction.
Message: Posted by: bobser (Sep 20, 2004 08:34AM)
I believe Derren's method was was originally done by Mike Hutton (T on T version)in the 80s.
Maybe even before that!
Message: Posted by: teejay (Sep 20, 2004 10:20AM)
DB's Lift is on his lecture tape and does not use Hypnosis (if my memory serves me)
Cheers
TJ
Message: Posted by: j (Sep 20, 2004 10:33AM)
Where can one find Derren Brown's lecture tapes? Do they come in DVD? One last question, what books has Derren Brown written or contributed to? Thanks in advance.
Message: Posted by: david_a_whitehead (Sep 20, 2004 10:49AM)
International Magic in the UK is the only supplier of his lecture tapes and no, they don't come in DVD format. His other books are Pure Effect and Absolute Magic.

TJ, he didn't explain the method for Lift on his lecture video. In his original notes for Pure Effect he describes the method using hypnotic induction. There have been threads about doing this routine without hypnosis, however, the method from Pure Effect suggests otherwise.
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Sep 20, 2004 11:05AM)
Extreme warning Sickpuppy, stay away from that hypnotorious site, you will kick yourself in the head if you associate yourself with Johnathon Royal.

I'm not saying anything more on that guy but I'm sure some of the others will.

Look up a search on him on the Café, I've heard a lot from close mentalist friends about him.

H.W
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 20, 2004 11:12AM)
Thanks Hypnotic Winter, I thought as much.
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Sep 20, 2004 11:26AM)
The thread discussing him is called "A new book about hypno-tricks"
I've no idea how to link threds yet as I've never had to do it.

One other thing, Keith Barry is an Irish magician and not a good one, Ireland has a bad vetting process regarding anything to do with magic unlike the UK, the main TV station basically accepted the first guy who came through the door, Channel 4 in the UK spent years looking for someone like Derren, I guess I'm a little annoyed at him as he has given away effects due to bad performance. You have no idea how bad it is to have almost every lay person who saw him perform know how psychokinetic touches is done, he also has used Derrens lift and not changed a word of Derren's script. Now that really annoys me and I almost never get annoyed.

H.W
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 20, 2004 11:53AM)
I am the same but sometimes when I watch magicians on the TV it's blatantly obvious how the trick was done, but when I turn to my fiancé she is amazed. So sometimes we as magicians can see more than the layman.
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Sep 20, 2004 01:01PM)
That's true except I had not seen the said program at the time, and heard about the method off of non magician friends who wanted to tell me about the program because they knew me to be a mentalist. I don't mind magicians spotting method, you can always expect that. Keith is probably a good guy but has messed up too many times on live tv for my liking. In one famous incident he had to be taken to hospital because he got a bean stuck in his ear when another piece of magic when wrong, his method is, read book, go out and perform trick, he clearly doesn't practice enough.

H.W
Message: Posted by: procyonrising (Sep 20, 2004 01:40PM)
Sorry Guys,

Never seen Lift, actually, forgot all about it. The thing I'm working on doesn't look anything like Lift and uses a voodoo doll.

I love, however, how Keith Barry comes across as "magician."

And yeah, no point in trying to do Lift. Everyone who knows anything knows it's Derren Brown's. You'll always be known as a thief in our community.

Chris Carter, sounds like a great effect.

Best,
James.
Message: Posted by: Markymark (Sep 20, 2004 01:48PM)
Yep, Keith Barry is bad.I wonder if he ever rehearses anything! He 'performed' the black envelope on T.V with a reflection of the card clearly showing on the glass of the coffee table! You would think someone could advise him...
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 21, 2004 02:49AM)
Hi James

I'm not trying to steal the effect just interested in it's workings. I wanted to know if it was hypnosis based or clever trickery.

Cheers
Ben
Message: Posted by: DangerMouse (Sep 21, 2004 08:15AM)
Just a quick one or maybe two.

1) David_a_whitehead, actually the Derren Brown lecture filmed at International is available from them on DVD.

2) What is this public domain everyone speaks of?? We are not dealing with the same type of copyright here that applies to written work or music/film. With mentalism I can perform lift, reminiscence, osterlinds Penny Bend, and anything else which isn't in print. How can I do this? If I create or learn a method then ahead I go. Making someones arm lift up from the table, I'm afraid, cannot be protected or owned. It will be different as far as having TV rights, but to perform it in the pub on a friday night is not illegal.

Curt.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Sep 21, 2004 09:06AM)
[quote]
but to perform it in the pub on a friday night is not illegal.

Curt.
[/quote]
Perhaps the question is not whether it is illegal, but whether it is disrespectful.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Sep 21, 2004 09:16AM)
Curtis,

I feel like I am following you around here. You have your own stalker ;)

I agree in principle to what you are saying about creating your own methods for achieving a similar effect, I do think that it creates a dangerous situation though.

In some cases an effect is developed and presented in a slightly different way, although based on a similar principle. This is the case with many effects already in mentalism and I do not see how the development of existing ideas, seen or known, can be harmful.

However, if an effect is reverse engineered to be presented in the exact same way with the same patter and style of a performer it is difficult to see how that can be beneficial. What is worse is performing it alongside other effects and stylings of the same performer.

I am quite confident you do not fall into the second category though Curtis ;)
Message: Posted by: DangerMouse (Sep 21, 2004 09:17AM)
Respect is a matter of opinion, illegality is not.

It's like if I hear Richard Pryor tell a great joke and then I repeat it in the bar because I found it so funny. I personally would not think I am disrespecting Mr Pryor

Curt
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Sep 21, 2004 09:25AM)
True.

Richard Pryor though?
Message: Posted by: Stephen Long (Sep 21, 2004 09:26AM)
Interestingly, performance material has been defined as real property in courts of law. Therefore to take it without first asking can certainly be considered illegal.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Sep 21, 2004 09:27AM)
Dangermouse,

Of course you are right that respect is a matter of opinion, as is ultimately any question of ethics. Nonetheless, you can expect that many people will hold some very strong opinions.

I'm pretty sure that it is fruitless to try hash out these ethical issues on a forum like this. My personal preference is to simply avoid those whose ethical positions I disagree with, and hope others will do the same.

All I'm trying to do in this instance is point out that nobody was really arguing the issue on legal terms. (Although apparently now Stephen is.)

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: freeflyphil (Sep 21, 2004 11:42AM)
Dangermouse, I would have thought that a distinction should be clear. Telling the joke to someone in the bar should not involve an ethical or legal problem. Telling the same routine in a comedy club and charging for it would surely present both.
If it's the case though that the original version of Pure Effect(not the one I have unfortunately ) did have an explanation of Lift then shouldn't it be considered public domain? Can anyone confirm with any reasonable degree of certainty that Derren is the creator of the effect?
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Sep 21, 2004 12:28PM)
Speculation is never good and those who know the effect should be smart enough to keep it to themselves as they would be throwing away a well kept secret not to mention it's worth which must be huge by now.

H.W
Message: Posted by: PaulEverson (Sep 22, 2004 02:44AM)
I believe Lift was never published in Pure Effect, however it did appear in some lecture notes along with reminiscence, the notes were published in the form of Pure Effect minus those two routines.
Message: Posted by: Sickpuppy (Sep 22, 2004 03:43AM)
Where can I get these lecture notes from??

Ben
Message: Posted by: DangerMouse (Sep 22, 2004 06:18AM)
A few pointers,

freeflyphil: My point exactly, I am not a professional mentalist so I will not be performing any effects for money or on stage, this means that I'm not offending anyone by doing my small performances in houses and bars.

Hypnotic Winter: Speculation is what mentalism thrives on, in all aspects. Speculation of the audience of how on earth "he stopped my watch". Speculation of a mentalist developing a method for an effect original or not. And obviously the fun of trying to figure out how different effects could be achived.

Curt.
Message: Posted by: Hypnotic Winter (Sep 22, 2004 10:35AM)
DangerMouse, you do have a very good point and are correct,But when it comes to mentalists or magicans I think it's better to figure out how we could do the same effect ourselves insted of worrying about how exactly some one elese did it.

H.W
Message: Posted by: teejay (Sep 22, 2004 12:24PM)
[quote]
TJ, he didn't explain the method for Lift on his lecture video. In his original notes for Pure Effect he describes the method using hypnotic induction. There have been threads about doing this routine without hypnosis, however, the method from Pure Effect suggests otherwise.
[/quote]

I gave my memory a kick and as far as I can remember, with your help, is that Lift was in the first edition of Pure Effect but removed from following editions
It was rumoured to be too good to share
IMHO The explanation was a typical DB joke on the magic community and too silly to include in an expensive, 'serious' best selling magic book
If any reader has read the 'explanation'
please share your opinion with me
Cheers
TJ
Message: Posted by: david_a_whitehead (Sep 22, 2004 01:24PM)
It was in the spiral bound edition of notes that later comprised the book Pure Effect minus Lift and Reminiscence. I don't think the explanation was a joke. He removed it because it was still in his active repertoire. I heard somewhere that he also decided to remove it because he got a number of questions from magicians trying out the effect and he realized that he did not want the magic community performing something they did not fully understand.
Message: Posted by: freeflyphil (Sep 22, 2004 03:40PM)
I saw Db in June and he didn't perform Lift. I wonder if that was due to the method being somewhat "out there". Or does he just vary the set? Did anyone see him perform it on the last tour?
Message: Posted by: Lord Of The Horses (Sep 22, 2004 07:15PM)
[quote]
On 2004-09-20 06:04, Sickpuppy wrote:
The other night I watch a magician put a volunteer into a ‘heightened sense of synchronicity’ he looked very relaxed and had his eyes closed (The volunteer not the magician). From that point every time the magician lifted his arm up the volunteer would raise his arm as well, likewise when the magician lowered his arm so would the volunteer. It seemed to me the volunteer had no way of knowing when the magician raised or lowered his arm.
[/quote]

I don't know if what you saw was LIFT or not but I do know of two Mentalists that both do a similar version with the twist that not only the subject lift or lower their arm when Mentalist does but also turn their head right or left and lift / lower their leg when Mentalist does... TRULY STUNNING TO WATCH!

Paolo Cavalli
Message: Posted by: teejay (Sep 23, 2004 05:12AM)
Hi David
Do you believe the explanation was a valid one?
Cheers
TJ
Message: Posted by: Scott Xavier (Sep 23, 2004 06:24AM)
Hello Mr. Carter, sorry for the lack of description, I just wanted to add my comments on a really cool concept/illusion.

For the record. What Chris does do is no where near lift, but is truly a work of performance art!

Congratulations Mr. Carter for original thinking and a great performance...
Message: Posted by: david_a_whitehead (Sep 23, 2004 07:58AM)
I thought it was valid tj.