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Topic: Card cheating dvd
Message: Posted by: nagi (Sep 27, 2004 04:21PM)
Hi,
I would like to ask about the most and the best dvd in card cheating , and what do you think about ORTIZ one ?
by the way Iam a beginner

Fatih
Message: Posted by: dynamiteassasin (Sep 27, 2004 08:19PM)
Darwin Ortiz is really good. You'll never go wrong with his dvd'd..

You might also want to try Ninja 1 from ellusionist. It teaches the Las Vegas Gambling Cheat routine. But I suggest you download it instead of getting a hard copy because it is a bit pricey.

Otherwise, Darwin Ortiz is the way to go.. :)
Message: Posted by: Brad Burt (Sep 27, 2004 08:28PM)
It depends a lot on what you wish to accomplish. Gambling sleights, at least the ones that are handy for magical use, are some of the most difficult moves out there. The most useful in my opinion is the Second Deal as it can be used for many, many purposes.

It also makes a BIG difference on whether you intend to learn the material because you want to actually use it to cheat. Hate to be crass, but that IS why some folks get interested in the stuff. If the that is the case your practice time goes up by a factor of 10 or more and the WAY you practice changes significantly. Also, the degree of technical perfection goes up and up and up. Best,

brad burt
http://www.magicshop.com
Message: Posted by: King Of Pop (Sep 28, 2004 05:47AM)
I agree with dynamiteassasin, it is great dvd :)

God Bless You, I Love You
Message: Posted by: saturnin (Sep 28, 2004 12:01PM)
HI Nagi,

Please use the "Search" function (at the top right corner) of this forum as this topic has been discussed many times before.

Other suggestions:
-Steve Forte
-Richard Turner
-Allan Ackerman
-etc...

Hope this helps

Ronnie Lemieux
Montreal
Canada
Message: Posted by: King Of Pop (Sep 28, 2004 12:50PM)
Good point saturnin and I have to mention that Allan Ackerman is also great suggestion here :)

God Bless You, I Love You From The Bottom Of My Heart
Message: Posted by: Eight Spades (Sep 28, 2004 01:11PM)
[quote]
On 2004-09-27 21:19, dynamiteassasin wrote:
Darwin Ortiz is really good. You'll never go wrong with his dvd'd..

You might also want to try Ninja 1 from ellusionist. It teaches the Las Vegas Gambling Cheat routine. But I suggest you download it instead of getting a hard copy because it is a bit pricey.

Otherwise, Darwin Ortiz is the way to go.. :)
[/quote]

Ellusionist's "Las Vegas Gambling Cheat" routine is absolutely not an example of cheating. It's all about demonstrating the pass, which has barely ever been used at a table successfully.

If you're looking for GOOD gambling demonstrations, see Ortiz. If you're interested in learning how to do things at the card table, see Erdnase's book and "The Phantom at the Card Table."

-Christian
Message: Posted by: dynamiteassasin (Sep 28, 2004 08:35PM)
[quote]
On 2004-09-28 14:11, Eight Spades wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-09-27 21:19, dynamiteassasin wrote:
Darwin Ortiz is really good. You'll never go wrong with his dvd'd..

You might also want to try Ninja 1 from ellusionist. It teaches the Las Vegas Gambling Cheat routine. But I suggest you download it instead of getting a hard copy because it is a bit pricey.

Otherwise, Darwin Ortiz is the way to go.. :)
[/quote]

Ellusionist's "Las Vegas Gambling Cheat" routine is absolutely not an example of cheating. It's all about demonstrating the pass, which has barely ever been used at a table successfully.

If you're looking for GOOD gambling demonstrations, see Ortiz. If you're interested in learning how to do things at the card table, see Erdnase's book and "The Phantom at the Card Table."

-Christian
[/quote]

I was just referring to him a Gambling Cheat Routine. I did not say that it only teaches the pass. I was telling him, through the content of the video, he could construct a "Gambling Cheat Routine". That's what he's looking for.
Message: Posted by: Eight Spades (Sep 28, 2004 11:56PM)
There are much better sources. The only thing even loosely related to gambling is the title.
Message: Posted by: nagi (Oct 1, 2004 03:17PM)
Hi all ,
thank you for every letter you wrote , I think most of you recommended the ORTIZ DVD and ERDNASE BOOK (the expert at the card table) so please can anyone tell me where can I obtain them since I have seen many many by searching the net .

THANKS
Message: Posted by: nagi (Oct 14, 2004 06:03AM)
My Dears
I was trying to find a magic shop that I can order the following Items from but I failed because most these shops not making orders to Sudan (my country),
so can any one help me finding a shop which can send this material to me ? thanks in advance:
1- Darwin Ortiz in card cheating Video Tape VHS
2- (The expert at the card table) by Erdanse
3- (The ohantom at the card table.


THanks


Nagi
Message: Posted by: Vasilis (Oct 14, 2004 09:51AM)
Try this site: [url]www.elmagicshop.com[/url]
They probably have anything you need.

Good luck
Vasilis
Message: Posted by: Jaybs (Oct 14, 2004 08:05PM)
Nagi,

Just so you know, you state that you're a beginner, however, the material that you are looking to purchase is geared towards advanced card handlers. Ortiz, Ackerman, Erdnase, etc. These require a high background knowledge of the pasteboards. I would reccomend learning the basic techniques first from these resources before trying to tackle them:

-Royal Road to Card Magic book by Hugard and Braue
-Daryl's Encyclopedia DVDs
-Card College books from Giobbi

Just a suggestion so you don't end up buying all sorts of advanced products only to find out that it is very difficult for a beginner such as yourself. Hope this helps!

Joe
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Oct 16, 2004 10:41PM)
Ortiz's stuff is definitely worth a look at.
Cheers,
Michael
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Oct 17, 2004 01:56AM)
Hi Nagi,

I my opinion, THE best source for card cheating bar none is Steve Forte's Gambling Protection Series. It is much better than the Ortiz cheeting video. There are four GPS videos, Vol's 1,2 and 3 cover a range of card cheeting moves in home games. Vol 4 is devoted to cheeting with dice. GPS is available here.

http://rge21.safeshopper.com/77/cat77.htm?618

Good luck.

Paul H
Message: Posted by: Alejandro Peterson (Oct 18, 2004 10:19AM)
I bought a few weeks ago an excelent DVD focused on gambling routines, Master Class By Fernando Keops, he teaches seconds, Centers a bottom deals, his skill level is incredible (He can perform seconds with both hands) and he teaches a fantastic routine created by one of his teachers (Marlo), and with just one shuffle you can deal a pocker hand and the spectator select how many players he want. (Need to choose more than 4 players) but is an amazing routine.!
Message: Posted by: Jaybs (Oct 18, 2004 11:28AM)
Sounds interesting. Where did you happen to find this DVD Alejandro because I'd certainly like to take a closer look at it? Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Alejandro Peterson (Oct 18, 2004 12:30PM)
I love Fernando Keops work, and I send him an e-mail to his web page asking for videos or dvd`s, and he told me about the Master Class DVD, He work in las Vegas but he have an office in Mexico.
You can ask him about the master class dvd.
You can contact him is his website
http://www.fernandokeops.com
Message: Posted by: Magical Dimensions (Oct 19, 2004 11:42AM)
Maybe it is just me, but Darwin Ortiz claims to do gambling moves. To me they are just magical card tricks. The question at the start of this post was to find card cheating methods! Not magical card tricks!

Card tricks and card cheating methods are different. You could start with the DVD, 'Cheating at Blackjack' because that is exactly what is on this DVD, cheating!

Fatih, Do you want card cheating or do you just want gambling magical card tricks?
Ray
Message: Posted by: Craig Krisulevicz (Oct 19, 2004 02:05PM)
[quote]
On 2004-10-19 12:42, Magical Dimensions wrote:
Maybe it is just me, but Darwin Ortiz claims to do gambling moves. To me they are just magical card tricks.
[/quote]

Darwin does magical effects and gambling demonstrations. One of the large factors that has created and sustained his unique character is the use of gambling technique.

MD, are you familiar with his video "Darwin Ortiz on Card Cheating"? By the sound of your post, it seems as if you are only aware of the video material he has put out soley for magicians.
Darwin has a vast and intimate knowledge of crooked gambling, which far exceeds what he has in print or video; ask anyone who knows him that. Readers, do not forget that Darwin has lectured and consulted for a large number of casinos, gaming conferences, enforcement agencies, etc.

[quote]
Card tricks and card cheating methods are different.
[/quote]

That's certainly true, it's just a shame that many people can't make that distinction when presenting either of the two.

[quote]
You could start with the DVD, 'Cheating at Blackjack' because that is exactly what is on this DVD, cheating!
[/quote]

I must disagree here. That title is filled with little useful information, since table procedures have changed. Even at the time that video was made, certain moves were inapplicable to real life. For anyone interested in this subject, I suggest spending some time searching the Café for guidance. There are many tips on where to start within this site.

$
Message: Posted by: Jaybs (Oct 21, 2004 11:05AM)
I think we have to remember that this member stated that he was a "Beginner." A lot of the material you guys have reccomended are quite advanced which could overwhelm him.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Oct 22, 2004 01:41AM)
I don't think there's such a thing as beginner level gambling moves...
Message: Posted by: Paul H (Oct 22, 2004 12:04PM)
[quote]
On 2004-10-22 02:41, iamslow wrote:
I don't think there's such a thing as beginner level gambling moves...
[/quote]

That is true but there is a place for a beginner with motivation to start. This is with the Erdnase, Expert at the Card Table book. The amount of relevent information on cheating methods as well as card magic continues to amaze and inspire me.

Regards,

Paul H
Message: Posted by: markhammagi (Oct 22, 2004 12:16PM)
It may be useful to help this member realize the level of practice required to master some of these advanced card moves.

Martin Nash said that it took 3000 hours of practice for him to master his second deal (although Bill Simon's book - "Effective Card Magic" has a chapter devoted to learning the second deal in significantly less time).

All of the sources referenced will take a beginner a significant amount of time and effort to master.
Message: Posted by: Alejandro Peterson (Oct 22, 2004 01:40PM)
[quote]
On 2004-10-22 13:16, markhammagi wrote:
Martin Nash said that it took 3000 hours of practice for him to master his second deal

I think that the second deal is not easy to master but, 2 hours for 5 years is to exaggerated.
Message: Posted by: markhammagi (Oct 22, 2004 04:29PM)
Aljandro, I would tend to agree with you. My quote about Martin taking 3000 hours was taken from the January 1978 Apocalypse.

I've seen Martin's second deal. Even when the cards are face-up you cannot detect the second deal ... it is that good.
Message: Posted by: markhammagi (Oct 22, 2004 04:31PM)
Alejandro ... sorry for the typo on my last post. I hate spelling anyone's name incorrectly. Andy
Message: Posted by: Alejandro Peterson (Oct 22, 2004 11:06PM)
Andy, The best second in my opinion is the push off, I don't know what second use Mr. Nash, maybe he use a harder second, but with regular practice I think 6 months are enought time
Message: Posted by: markhammagi (Oct 24, 2004 11:31AM)
Alejandro, Martin Nash uses a refined form of a strike second - in case you are interested, you can read about some of the details in his deal on pages 188-190 of "Any Second Now" by Stephen Minch (I believe this book is out of print).

Like yourself, I use a push-off second deal, but I use this for card changes, and not for gambling routines that require lots of dealing. This move has worked well for me in the past, but I also use heavy misdirection.

Since I'm not an expert in this, I took at look at some of my books and videos to see if I could gleam any more information on this subject. Roy Walton (in "The Collected Walton, pp. 201-204) feels that the 'strike' technique may be the better version for general conjuring applications. When I looked at Darwin Ortiz's books and videos, it looks like he prefers to use the strike technique for most of his routines, but he does note that "a push-off second deal (can) certainly be as effective (as a strike deal) if well executed" (Darwin Ortiz at the Card Table p.23).

If you are interested in investigating the strike method further, the books I see referenced most often are: Expert Card Technique (pp 17-20), Effective Card Magic (per my earlier post), and Nash's book. You may also want to check out Jack Carpenter's comments in "Modus Operandi" (pp. 134-137), and I would be remiss if I didn't mention Marlo's RTC, and Erdnase's "The Expert at the Card Table" as sources of additional information.

I'm not sure if this helps the overall discussion, but I did have a lot of fun last night, trying to research these details.
Message: Posted by: Alejandro Peterson (Oct 25, 2004 09:05AM)
Thanks Andy!
Great Info.
Message: Posted by: Bizarrist (Nov 3, 2004 10:22PM)
I always find great deals at

[url=http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/customer/home.php] Hank Lee's Magic Factory [/url]

If your wanting a magic video I'd recommend getting a DVD rather than VHS. Most DVD's are region free or can be made that way fairly easily with the right software.

Good luck on your buying binge!