The Magic Caf
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Mentalism R.I.P. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I have a Kindle and so do many. But I've never seen most adults carrying one around with them, unless they're on a beach or an airplane. Ask who has a Kindle in a club setting and I'd bet no one has one with them.

I imagine the only place where you'd find many would be in a school.
WitchesHat
View Profile
Regular user
155 Posts

Profile of WitchesHat
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 16:21, mastermindreader wrote:
I have a Kindle and so do many. But I've never seen most adults carrying one around with them, unless they're on a beach or an airplane. Ask who has a Kindle in a club setting and I'd bet no one has one with them.

I imagine the only place where you'd find many would be in a school.



I was talking about in this hypothetical future where there are no books. At that point kindles or likewise devices would be commonplace and at least a few members of an audience will have it.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Could be. But how many audience members (at public shows) have you found who actually bring books? And if there were no more books, I doubt if they'd bring Kindles either.

But people CAN download books (many free) to their I-phones. Which may be the basis for something- ask a few audience members to download a few random books onto their phones and later use one of the for a book test.
WitchesHat
View Profile
Regular user
155 Posts

Profile of WitchesHat
Exactly yeah 'A kindle or other likewise device'. Point is either way, IF books are compleatly wiped out or at least no longer seen as a 'normal' items, some form of small electronic reading device will replace it and will be manipulated by mentalists for the same purpose.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3399 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
But how will I perform Marc Paul's AAA Book Test on a Kindle or similar device!?!
insight
View Profile
Inner circle
3095 Posts

Profile of insight
In my assessment, technology does pose a threat to the field of mentalism. Technology, like other things, creates a perception among the spectator regarding the source of the wonder. For example, there is a new effect out with a cell phone in which you take a picture of someone holding a blank card, and then you show them the picture you took with them holding the card they were thinking of in their mind . The spectator may surely think, "hey, it must be an app!"

The way to make mentalism bullet-proof is by removing all those perceptions regarding the source of the wonder. If the spectator cannot even fathom how it was possible, that it when you have created a mentalism miracle. Anything less, then it's just a magic trick aided by technology (or sleight of hand, or...you catch my drift)...


Regards,
Mike
DynaMix
View Profile
Inner circle
1149 Posts

Profile of DynaMix
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 18:37, insight wrote:
In my assessment, technology does pose a threat to the field of mentalism. Technology, like other things, creates a perception among the spectator regarding the source of the wonder. For example, there is a new effect out with a cell phone in which you take a picture of someone holding a blank card, and then you show them the picture you took with them holding the card they were thinking of in their mind . The spectator may surely think, "hey, it must be an app!"

The way to make mentalism bullet-proof is by removing all those perceptions regarding the source of the wonder. If the spectator cannot even fathom how it was possible, that it when you have created a mentalism miracle. Anything less, then it's just a magic trick aided by technology (or sleight of hand, or...you catch my drift)...


Regards,
Mike


I made this exact point in the thread regarding that app. In a similar app, ghost card, the implication is that you took a pic of the card they would later select.
In this newest incarnation, the implication is more that you turned their image into a named selection. More magic then mental I suppose. Still seems way too obvious it's an app and I am in complete agreement with you.
insight
View Profile
Inner circle
3095 Posts

Profile of insight
Also, the most powerful mentalism is TRULY hands-off and TRULY completely in the mind. Anytime props are introduced (playing cards, for example), the spectator can perceive that they have been manipulated so as to achieve the said effect. In other words, it's not always only about spectator perception. It is also about spectator reality---a new and controversial concept in mentalism.

Regards,
Mike
insight
View Profile
Inner circle
3095 Posts

Profile of insight
I received some PMs asking me what is wrong with playing cards. The answer, to share, is nothing if your intention is to be a magician. For mentalism, however, cards can be perceived as props that aid the intended effect. For example, a card can be marked, can be manipulated with sleight of hand, can be peeked, can be forced, can be so many things...the mind is less able to be manipulated on a pure level, and hence mentalism has the potential to achieve heightened spectator reactions due to the concept of spectator reality.

Regards,
Mike
Zombie Magic
View Profile
Inner circle
I went out for a beer and now have
8737 Posts

Profile of Zombie Magic
Max Maven uses cards...as does Docc Hilford, Richard Osterlind......

We better tell them they're doing it all wrong and to cancel their shows.
insight
View Profile
Inner circle
3095 Posts

Profile of insight
They certainly should not cancel their shows. But, it should not be noted that many of their effects may be considered "magical" and "magic" related, rather than purely mental miracle mysteries. This can be seen in the spectator reactions in the following Max Maven magic trick using a deck of cards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FADcxD--icw

Again, nothing wrong with using cards...but, using them, as in using technology, will diminish the mentalism impact.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On 2013-07-10 00:28, Zombie Magic wrote:
Max Maven uses cards...as does Docc Hilford, Richard Osterlind......

We better tell them they're doing it all wrong and to cancel their shows.
Zombie Magic
View Profile
Inner circle
I went out for a beer and now have
8737 Posts

Profile of Zombie Magic
Quote:
On 2013-07-10 01:03, insight wrote:
They certainly should not cancel their shows. But, it should not be noted that many of their effects may be considered "magical" and "magic" related, rather than purely mental miracle mysteries. This can be seen in the spectator reactions in the following Max Maven magic trick using a deck of cards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FADcxD--icw

Again, nothing wrong with using cards...but, using them, as in using technology, will diminish the mentalism impact.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On 2013-07-10 00:28, Zombie Magic wrote:
Max Maven uses cards...as does Docc Hilford, Richard Osterlind......

We better tell them they're doing it all wrong and to cancel their shows.



"This can be seen in the spectator reactions in the following Max Maven magic trick using a deck of cards"


Can you educate us on what what those reactions are, in your opinion, in this "Sinbad" hosted event?
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9583 Posts

Profile of funsway
Folks may purchase tickets to see a particular Mentalist perform in an expected manner using known props. Those who do not find certain props to be appropriate for Mentalism will not purchase tickets -- at least not more than once. Thus, the reactions to paying audience do not necessarily indicate the preference for either Mentalism or those props in general.

The true test for "is Mentalism dying" would come from those who choose not to attend a Mentalism show. How can this be measured?

By analogy -- you can't determine whether a BIg Mac is a good hamburger by only asking those who frequent MacDonalds regularly, or even by those who choose another fast-food chain instead. You must also survey those who choose not to eat fast-food at all.

There is no doubt that some people will allow their desire to be entertained to override any concern for the quality or relevance of the performance. Some many even try a number of Mentalists in hopes of finding one who meets their standard of astonishment and mystery. Do we then count the number of apparently successful Mentalists or the number of wannabe's who failed to achieve success?

When I saw Dunninger perform in the late 50's he had a spectator hard a column of numbers with confidence they could arrive at an accurate sum. Would any Mentalist risk that today? Methinks the reliance on "modern technology" has destroyed that type of Mentalist demonstration -- or the confidence of a performer in what an average spectator can do. Some might say this has forced Mentalist to find better demonstrations to impress an audience. Other might view this as a negative aspect of technology.

I would suggest that every technological "advance" has negative aspects for someone. An electronic technology gains acceptance or popularity because of the number of people who find some benefit over those who do not -- but this has little to do with "quality of life" or "cultural advancement." Mentalism and all performance for entertainment will always be "challenged" by changes in what people believe is normal and what they expect from a performance. The number of people who seek vicarious entertainment seems to be on the increase because of modern technology - so, Mentalism is safe. What does that mean for the future of the human species? Ask a fortune-teller.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
innercirclewannabe
View Profile
Inner circle
Ireland
1594 Posts

Profile of innercirclewannabe
Quote:
On 2013-07-10 00:28, Zombie Magic wrote:
Max Maven uses cards...as does Docc Hilford, Richard Osterlind......

We better tell them they're doing it all wrong and to cancel their shows.




I agree, and what about some of their predecessors - i.e. Dunninger, Annemann, and Canasta!

Perceived as Magicians? I think not.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
insight
View Profile
Inner circle
3095 Posts

Profile of insight
You may agree, but I disagree of the need to tell them they're doing it all wrong. They have the right to perform certain effects the way they would like in a manner that accomplishes their objectives. I don't think that one trick using cards should necessarily define the totality of a mentalist. In other words, even though Max Maven did a card trick, one card trick alone cannot make a mentalist. The mentalism perception is created more broadly through the utilization of an aura that permeates mystery and miracle.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On 2013-07-10 15:50, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-07-10 00:28, Zombie Magic wrote:
Max Maven uses cards...as does Docc Hilford, Richard Osterlind......

We better tell them they're doing it all wrong and to cancel their shows.




I agree, and what about some of their predecessors - i.e. Dunninger, Annemann, and Canasta!

Perceived as Magicians? I think not.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Depends on the context and how the playing cards are used. In my memory demonstration, for example, there is no hint of "magic trick" to a lay audience. Many have tried to "improve" the routine by presenting it with specially made picture cards. The problem there, however, is that the cards are completely unfamiliar to anyone, thus creating suspicion rather than alleviating it.

Strange looking and unfamiliar objects are a bigger problem than playing cards. At least for me. That's one of the reasons I'd never use a traditional mental epic board- too mental magicky in my opinion.

But in the end, it's the performer's stage persona and presentational abilities that determine whether are not cards, or anything else for that matter, can be used and perceived by an audience as mentalism rather than magic.
JanForster
View Profile
Inner circle
Germany ... when not traveling...
4131 Posts

Profile of JanForster
Thank you, Bob, I am feeling better now... Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de
Curtis Alexander
View Profile
New user
74 Posts

Profile of Curtis Alexander
As some have already pointed out, I don't think this means the death of mentalism anymore than the printing press was the end of the US economy. If technology makes an old method obsolete then we will either have to do without that particular tool for our toolbox or get creative to figure out a solution. With that being said, most of the technology mentioned by the OP is very far off. I'm in my 20's and I highly doubt I will live to see the day that standard playing cards get replaced with a fully electronic deck like the one you described.

E-Readers are taking over the markets, but they aren't eliminated printed books, newspapers, and magazines. Will they one day? Maybe, but not anytime soon. Even then I doubt this will mean that people no longer have bookshelves in their houses, and for stage purposes it usually isn't all that natural for a performer to pull out a book anyway so I don't think that will change anything.

If anything I think this means a bright future for mentalism. After all, imagine how amazing a book test on a Kindle could be.
Curtis Alexander
View Profile
New user
74 Posts

Profile of Curtis Alexander
Quote:
On 2013-07-09 20:51, insight wrote:
I received some PMs asking me what is wrong with playing cards. The answer, to share, is nothing if your intention is to be a magician. For mentalism, however, cards can be perceived as props that aid the intended effect. For example, a card can be marked, can be manipulated with sleight of hand, can be peeked, can be forced, can be so many things...the mind is less able to be manipulated on a pure level, and hence mentalism has the potential to achieve heightened spectator reactions due to the concept of spectator reality.


They can be, but this doesn't necessarily mean it can't be mentalism if it uses cards. Ted Lesley goes by the rule that it's okay to use playing cards in mentalism as long as the performer never touches the cards. I don't necessarily agree that you have to be quite so strict, but it's not a bad goal to aim for.

A few examples that immediately come to mind is Derren Brown's performance for Jonathan Ross and his then-wife, or Peter Turner's opening performance in his Penguin Live lecture. I don't think anyone can look at those performances and write them off merely as magicians doing card tricks.
WitchesHat
View Profile
Regular user
155 Posts

Profile of WitchesHat
Johnny Carson as 'Carnac the magnificent' performing classic envelope mind reading.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m_dT0wsrGI

Derren Brown performing with cards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI5-NDiY7IM

Who looks like a real mind reader?

It's not the method or the props, it's the presentation and the context.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Mentalism R.I.P. (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2022 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.05 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL