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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Prism dealing shoe (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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t-rabbit
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Hi,

I regularly take a look at the gambling spot but never posted.

So, for my first post I want to share with you some pictures and discussion about a very nice piece of gambling: the prism shoe.

I just came back from an european shoe maker shop and have been lucky enough to put my hands on one of these shoe.

Prism shoe are a well know gaffed device for "experts" because it have been demonstrated through many videos, but, correct me if I'm wrong, it remain a rare crooked device.

Even in the DVD where the shoe is demonstrated, you will not be able to see the shoe in a closer manner.


So, some pictures of my shoe, as you can see it's an all black shoe.

A general view of the shoe:

Image


Image


Image


The mouth of the shoe:

Image


Image


The shoe from another angle:

Image


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And maybe the most important part of the shoe, the prism:

Image


Image




Some will claim that prism shoe are only for collectors or demonstrator, but I've been told that those shoes have been used in real situation and are still in use in few places.

Maybe some of you have experimented prism shoe and have some stories or some anecdotes about this device.

Even if there is no complicated mecanism in the shoe, I like to compare prism shoe to Kepplinger Holdout: A beautiful, rare, collectible and expensive gaffed device.
Cagliostro
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Nice looking shoe. Don’t mean to get personal, but if you don’t mind answering, what did you currently pay for that in Europe (in either Euros or Dollars)?

Pretty dangerous nowadays, primarily because of the prism, but I assume you acquired this as a collector’s item or as a demonstration piece.
t-rabbit
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The price of a gaffed shoe can be influenced by many details like, how much decks the shoe can hold, the general finish, does the shoe has to match a non-gaffed shoe, is there a securing system, is there a locking system, what sort of locking system etc etc...

In this case, I did not have to pay for the shoe, I get the shoe for some favor.

Yes the prism is an obvious gaff, but for demonstration it's a good visual gaff. In most blackjack demonstration, you see experts dealing seconds, switching cards, pinching a bet etc etc.... But hey! Today, blackjack is dealt from a shoe with cards faceup!
tommy
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Well Black Jack is not the only game played with a shoe i.e Baccarat or Punto Banco.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
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I am not an expert in shoes...But, I think prism shoes sell in the $3,500 - $4,500 price range on the street.
Other gaff shoes may be more expensive.
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JasonEngland
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Cag,

Modern 2-shoes run about $1200 - 1500 depending on maker and what you want.

I have about 6 prism shoes and one rough/smooth shoe. A rough/smooth shoe allows for a card to be pushed up into what would normally be the "peek" position, but there is no prism. The operator has to feel a difference in the cards - this is where the two types of finishes (Ivory vs Cambric) came in handy on old Bee cards. Of course, you can also peg the high cards in a pinch.

One of my prism shoes was made by Ray Carson, a legendary gaffed-shoe maker that passed away a few years ago. If I'm not mistaken, he lived here in Vegas but I never met him. It has a lock-up mechanism that's activated by sliding a card into the gap between the face-plate and the sidewall. It cost $5000.00 from Ray in the 1980s. Best 2-shoe I've ever seen, hands down.

I also have an all-black shoe like the one here in these photos. It was made for me by a maker in NYC and has a lock-up mechanism that's magnetically activated. The magnet is slid across the face-plate. This shoe runs about $1500.00 from the maker that I got mine from.

The other shoes I have were given to me by an old maker of prism shoes. Some of them are finished and some of them are missing the side trim. Missing the side trim means they can't be put into "action" but they make great demo pieces as you can see the top card slide under the prism from the side.

Lastly, I have 2 "long peek" baccarat shoes that allow you to peek the top card of the deck from the back wall of the shoe using an elongated prism. These are tough to read but very, very cool. I have two of them (one is for sale) and I've only ever seen 1 other one. It's in a private collection in Texas but used to belong to Steve Forte.

Jason

PS: t-rabbit, prism shoes have absolutely been used in private and casino games in the past 20 or so years to make some very serious scores. The private games were here in the U.S. The casino games weren't necessarily in this country, but it's been done for sure.

PPS: I have all the parts necessary to make about two dozen shoes if anyone wants one, contact me and I'll see what I can arrange for you. It won't be cheap, but it might not cost you as much as a brand new one made from scratch.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
jjsanvert
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THAT is a collection! I heard there are shoes with a mini camera inside, but never seen one...
JJS
lisheng
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Yes, there are. There are also clear prism shoes and shoes that read the order of cards and transmit the readings to an external source.
jjsanvert
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Yes, I have seen clear prism shoes. A beauty.
JJS
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2013-04-06 23:47, JasonEngland wrote:

Cag,

Modern 2-shoes run about $1200 - 1500 depending on maker and what you want.

Thanks Jason. The price hasn’t changed much over the last 30-40 or so years as they were selling on the street for about $1,500 back then. Of course, the dollar has deteriorated to a considerable degree during that time period so I would estimate that the price vis-à-vis today's purchasing power would show a true reduction in price of about 40% to 50%.

That makes sense because of the repeated exposure over the last 40 or so years which make the 2 shoes less and less desirable over time. Let’s face it, when a gaff gets freely described and discussed on a public forum like the Café, how “secret” or desirable can it really be. Like anything else (but especially with a physical gaff), it becomes more and more dangerous to use the more people who know about it, so one has to plan and pick his spots more carefully before using something as well-known as this, but of course judicious selection of spots to use such a devise can still make it viable.

In my opinion it is more confined at this point in time to magicians and the internet and expose crowd which is the death of any gaff and there are better ways to play a shoe game without the “No. 2” feature.

I was mostly curious as to what the price would be in Europe. Seems like over the years there have been and continue to be more “opportunities” for certain gaffs in the European arena as they historically have been about 10 years behind the times regarding this type chicanery and for many years Vegas hustlers would go to Europe for more opportunities after they got played out in Nevada. That is changing with the advent of the internet and please, no disrespect meant to our European friends.

Quote:
On 2013-04-06 23:47, JasonEngland wrote:
Lastly, I have 2 "long peek" baccarat shoes that allow you to peek the top card of the deck from the back wall of the shoe using an elongated prism.

Originally, the peek shoes were used on the Blackjack games in Vegas and I believe Caesars’ Palace was the first to be honored with this gaff (as well as many other gaffs over the years). As I recall, Joe Chadwick (a very capable ex-hustler) was working on the floor at Caesars in the 70s in a more or less advisory capacity. He was closing the games on the graveyard shift when he noted that one of the shoes was heavier than the others. They took it apart and found the gaff. Then it was subsequently exposed and demonstrated on one of the gambling conferences held in Vegas and at that point it became better known.

So what happened then? As usual the hustlers came up with different gaffs to beat the joints, and the game goes on. Smile
t-rabbit
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>Tommy, absolutely right, but some gaff are more designed for blackjack and other for baccarat.

> ExpertMagician, 3500/4500$ is maybe the price you would applied on your website, but I think it's little overpriced. Jason is more reasonable for the price. Some month ago I've sold a prism shoe for 560$ on an well know auction website.

> JasonEngland, If I well remember, you give me a description of your collection some month ago, semms to be a great collection. I hope I will be able to get a shoe with an elongated prism, I think it will be my next acquisition.

> lishen, what do you mean by "clear prism shoe"? Is it another gaff or simply a prism shoe made of clear plastic?

> Cagliostro, as you said, prism shoe has been exposed and are now hardly a secret, so for professionnal hustler it can be less attractive, but it's a good piece for collectors and demonstrators. I feel no disrespect in your post.
tommy
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One word to the wise; If one happens to have a regular game of poker in ones house, then its not very wise to have a collection of cheating devices there at the same time. If one does and the Gambling Commission raid the joint, then the headlines will read: Illicit gambling den busted and cheating devices found!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
t-rabbit
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Good advice Tommy. That's why I don't want to hold a poker game. Because my poker table is in the same room where all my collection is, what will happen if one player open a locker and discover all the books and gaff?


I just realise I have some parts of prism shoe. (2 prism and 2 faceplates with the prism)

Image


It's parts with minor defect, so they can't be sold as professionnal shoe. That's why the maker give them to me. But they are all functional.

Maybe some of you will be interested by these parts (they all can be functionnal), so I've put them on a well know online auction website.

More pictures and better description of each item on the website.

> Cagliostro, have you ever heard or see prism shoe in action in big casinos? I would be curious to know what happened after Joe Chadwick discover the peek shoe. I think the casino manager MUST fire some of his staff, but who? After a gaff like this is discover is there an investigation to know who put it on the floor? How going on?


Oh I just realise you would probably never answer anymore to keep your post number at 666!
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2013-04-09 07:59, t-rabbit wrote:
> Cagliostro, have you ever heard or see prism shoe in action in big casinos? I would be curious to know what happened after Joe Chadwick discover the peek shoe. I think the casino manager MUST fire some of his staff, but who? After a gaff like this is discover is there an investigation to know who put it on the floor? How going on?

Oh I just realise you would probably never answer anymore to keep your post number at 666!
Okay, I am going to break the spell of 666 and answer the post just for you. (I also got permission from my friend, the Devil to do this. He is not such a bad guy once you get to know him).

It was about 45 years ago but of course there was some heat over the discovery. But who put it in. There are three shifts at Caesars’ Palace and at that time the shoes were kept in the desk and there was no camera surveillance. It could have easily been switched on the game itself. I really don’t know if anyone was fired over this. If so, it would be symbolic.

I have seen the peek shoe in action in casinos. It was not just Caesars’ Palace that had the honor of having a peek shoe on their games. Over the years they have been introduced in casinos from time to time, including those in Europe. I have only seen #2 shoes in action in private games, or private casinos type games, not in major casinos.

The concept of management cheating the players in major casinos went out with high-button shoes. The real money is in beating the casinos.

Don't want to alienate anyone on the BB, but the gaffs that are discussed freely on the BB are pretty much dead numbers because when that happens they have pretty much become common knowledge and are more for the magician and expose group.
t-rabbit
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Okay, I was just curious on how the director managed the incident. How a casino manager can hire an Ex-hustler? Don't you need an approval to work for casino in Vegas? How can you be sure that this "Ex" Hustler is not still on the dark side?

For your last sentence, don't take it as an offense, but I think you are only alienating yourself by persisting saying something like that, you are on a magician BB !!! Smile
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On 2013-04-12 15:56, t-rabbit wrote:
Don't you need an approval to work for casino in Vegas? How can you be sure that this "Ex" Hustler is not still on the dark side?

Many people in years past were on the "dark" side at one point in their life or another. Also, how can you be sure of anyone not being on the dark side. I have seen newbies go to the dark side and in some cases make more money than they ever dreamed possible.

Quote:
On 2013-04-12 15:56, t-rabbit wrote:
For your last sentence, don't take it as an offense, but I think you are only alienating yourself by persisting saying something like that, you are on a magician BB !!! Smile

Thank you for the comment and I certainly don’t take any offense. I’m sure you are very sincere in your offer of advice and perhaps you are correct, but alas, since I am not politically correct, I will foolishly continue to post in the manner and way that I see as being appropriate in regard to the subject matter being discussed and to make the points I deem necessary in the way I believe to be the most effective.

Some people like me just never learn but thanks again for your concern and I appreciate your comment.
Expertmagician
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T-Rabbit...

You said "> ExpertMagician, 3500/4500$ is maybe the price you would applied on your website, but I think it's little overpriced. Jason is more reasonable for the price. Some month ago I've sold a prism shoe for 560$ on an well know auction website."

Just to set the record straight, I have not worked with the prism dealing shoes even though I can get them...I have only dealt with the shoes which have remote control cameras built into what appear to be clear transparent shoes.
The wireless remote control, cameras and video receivers is what is expensive.

As you point out T-Rabbit, prism shoes are less expensive than wireless camera shoes with remote controls and cell phone wireless monitors.

Like everything in life each technology has it's pros and cons....so, experiment Smile

BOTTOM LINE: I do not market or advertize gaff shoes....I have seen them, know about them and know where to get some of them...personally, they are cool....But, I have no desire to own one.
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silverking
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I don't get what your post has to do with what T-Rabbit posted?

You did say " I think prism shoes sell in the $3,500 - $4,500 price range on the street. "
t-rabbit
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Quote:
Many people in years past were on the "dark" side at one point in their life or another. Also, how can you be sure of anyone not being on the dark side. I have seen newbies go to the dark side and in some cases make more money than they ever dreamed possible.


Ok Cagliostro, I was thinking he were hire BECAUSE he was on the dark side previously. Of course, an approval don't mean you have never been on the dark side,it just mean you have never been caught.

Quote:
I’m sure you are very sincere in your offer of advice


It was not an advice! Just an ascertainement.


Quote:
On 2013-04-13 00:38, silverking wrote:
I don't get what your post has to do with what T-Rabbit posted?

You did say " I think prism shoes sell in the $3,500 - $4,500 price range on the street. "


He probably just want everybody know he has acces to remote controlled camera shoe...
Expertmagician
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You are correct....I did say that I thought a prism shoe was $3.5K - $4K.
My error.....I appologize...guess I am human...

I was thinking of the wireless camera shoes with remote control, phone monitors and automatic second deal capabilities.

As I said....I really have no interest in selling these....I am a marked card guy...not a shoe guy and prefer sleight of hand.

Shoes are cool to look at and see how well the are made....but, I have no personal interest in marketing or selling any types of shoes.
The only reason I know about the technology is because someone specificaly asked me if I could get one.

PS: NOTE: I have been I this forum for years and I have never mentioned shoes....so, "telling people that I have access to the technology" does not mean anything to me....
I was simply trying to add to the conversation and unfortunately, I did make a mistake regarding prices because I was thinking about something different than what I wrote.

Hopefully, my appology will put this issue to bed Smile
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