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Pekka
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Isn't the smallest edge on Baccarat, I remember seeing a documentary that says that it is almost 50/50 game and thus offeres only to the exclusive players.

I really don't get this "lay" or "take" stuff, I have not even seen a Craps table. But I will by the end of this week.
tommy
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Hi Pekka

that's another game I do not play but it is the only game where I personally know someome, an ex dealer who cheated the casino out of a large amount of money. He got the boot but they could not prove anything even with the eye. I am not sure of all the detail but roughly he switced in a full shoe.
I am not sure now if it was Chemin De Fer or Baccarat but Frank explains the game at his site Frank of course is the guy the movie Casino was based on.
http://www.frankleftyrosenthal.com/modul......baccarat
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2005-06-15 20:31, tommy wrote:
I did read that the only no edge bet that a casino offers can be found on the craps table.

Anyone want to bet? Smile


I've always disputed the "no edge" hype concerning the odds bet. If it's really got no edge to it, then why will you go broke in the long run making that bet?

Oh yeah, because you have to make a pass/don't pass or come/don't come bet to be able to make the odds wager!

It's true that the odds bet lowers the overall disadvantage for the combined amounts of the pass or come wager + the odds portion, but there is still a tiny disadvantage for the total, no matter how small you get it.

I know why they say it and the math behind it...but I like to see the big picture when it comes to gambling!

JDE
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Yes it is a sort of a back door Edge and even if they did offer no edge bets you could not expect to win but just break even. So there is no value in that. The only thing I know of in a casino where they give value is in some poker comps, as they sometimes top up the prize money which is a sort of loss leader for them.

Jason are we in the UK going get to see this TV show, I can not find it here.

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
iamslow
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Hey Jason, have you ever heard of dice lizards?? they are those people that hang out at the dice table either asking people for a nickle here and there and they ask people that don't take odds if they could take the odds... which gives them a supposedly 50/50 chance... its funny how they seem to still lose their money...

After this whole discussion, I was at work last night and I was checking out the end walls of our table and the part with the mini pyramids only covered a portion... there was about 6 inches of flat area above the pyramids and about an inch at the bottom... the bottom however was at an angle...
"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
bishthemagish
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Only in the Café would we find a thread titled card sharks and end up talking about dice.

I would rather talk about my favorite way to run up a hand. Or perhaps it is better if I could show you. So I added video to my scissor bottom video. In this video after the scissor bottom I place four kings into the deck and run them up for a five handed game of draw poker.

If I were a card cheat this is the way I would most likely do it - except I would only run up three of a kind. Other wise it takes to long to run up the four of a kind like the kings I do in this video.

This is not a deck of strippers or belly stripped and this can be done in a Texas Holdem demo or deal too!

Enjoy!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
tommy
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Well said Glen. I can not wait to see this. I am off there now.

Tommy

That last one was very cool Glen. May I ask if that requires a set deck before the cards go in. If not, you got me.

PS What I mean is do the cards go in anywhere.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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There is a way to do this by putting the kings in and then having the deck shuffled by a spectator then run up the hands. The deck isn't stacked.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
tommy
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Very good Glen. I liked the others to but that last as got me thinking.

There isn’t a thing on the Steve Fortes Game Protection Tapes that comply with Casino procedures and sections that deal with the overhand shuffle, what say you to him.
The world of the cardsharp stretches far wider than those living on tips dealing at casinos for low pay having done a six week course and then thinking they know it all. Not seeing the wood for the trees and having tunnel vision are excellent ways of not learning a thing about the real work or magic.

Regards

Tommy

An employer of WSOP dealers. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
art the magic guy!
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HOLY MOLY!!!----hey, thanks for the tips on some serious dice techniques and what have you. I would still really like to know where can I learn more about CARD SHARK METHODS AND TECHNIQUES----so far I got Ortiz, and richard turner. Anyone else?
I AM AN AMERICAN SOLDIER
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I will NEVER leave a fallen comrade
----I AM AN AMERICAN SOLDIER----
tommy
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Apart from little poker games down the block, there are big games up the block that exceed poker in money terms, where overhand shuffles are often used. The game is called Bridge. Also Gin and Kalloki are games that spring my mind that are played for high stakes. Any hustler would be able to see $ signs in such effects as this. There are few who would have no interest in being able to stack cards from a shuffled deck in that field of play, overhand or not. If Glen can do that it is the real work, unlike most of what we see.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Andrei
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I have no knowledge of Craps or Casino etiquette. I also do not know what Mr. Wolf has PM-ed Mr. England.

What I can do is try to put together a little bit of sense using plain old logic. Maybe this fresh perspective will clear up things a little. Mr. Bishop, I apologize for perpetuating dice as the topic of discussion.

Let us dub advantage as any strategy which, when applied from the beginning of a game, produces favourable results over an extended period of time. It is obvious that player advantge does not exist: everyone agrees on that.

Mr. Wolf says that it is possible to have a short term 4:1 advantage which you will not be able to maintain in the long run. The only reason (that I can think of) for which one would not be able to keep playing the same (presumably winning) strategy over an extended period of time is because a changing factor is involved.

Craps is a game which can be reduced to a computer simulation, which makes odds and everything pretty well-determined. Money is bet and the dice are rolled. Here is where a SOCIAL FACTOR might come into play, this social factor might be one which indeed balances the odds in favour of the knowledgeable player.

Whose invests in the play? Who wins the money? Who loses the money?

One must not immediately equal he who is playing the game with he who is risking his money on that particular hand. I will demonstrate what I mean. (Again, I know not how feasable this might be, I am only looking for a solution which sets in agreement both gentlemen's posts)

Assume I am widely known and well respected as THE man. Particularly, people have heard rumours that I've managed to develop a fool-proof player-edge strategy in craps. People do buy into all sorts of crazy things. Now, one night's play will not be a huge hole in my bankroll since I know how to play the odds fairly well, which means that my percentage loss will be under, say, 8% (even less).
After playing for a while, I walk around the tables, for example. Say I spot an instance in which the player has rolled that first point or whatnot (I fail to grasp the actual meaning of it, but I understand there is a middle-of-the-game instance in which the player DOES hold an advantage). It is at that point that I, charmingly and persuasively, offer to step in and put my money as insurance for the troubled player's. Again: I'm offering him a safe out and at the same time offering myself a very decent chance of winning money. I can even guarantee him a certain sum of money in exchange for letting me play that particular shot/hand. This would calculated in such a way that it does not spoil the aforementioned player edge, when I lose the money every fourth play.
It is reasonable to assume that, were I allowed to do this every night with every player, that is to say, stepping in when the odds are right and making that MY play, I would indeed have a good advantage, because random people have been taking the losses while I have been reaping the benefits.
The short-termness of this advantage is derived from the fact that once people realize what I'm doing, the gig is up.

That is the only way in which a logical piece of reasoning is to make coincident both Jason England's and Mago's arguments (or lack thereof, as is the latter case).


Either that or I'm way out of my league,
Andrei
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-06-18 11:26, iamslow wrote:
(Glenn Bishop said)
"Funny thing I was offered a full time job from several casinos in my past to teach security how to spot cheating and to help catch cheaters but I turned them down."
(You said)
Sure they did!! Do you mind naming which casinos?? pls. don't say you are not allowed to mention which ones either, because you did turn down the job right??

Sure it was Harris casino Joliet IL. I was hired to do special shows for them when they had the local town council come in and then Harris would wine and dine them. I did a short expo of card cheating methods as part of the show. And I was invited back by the security boss of the casino and asked to show this to their security team.

I did and the pay was my show fee.

Then he offered me a job at his casino and I turned it down.

This is why!

Because first of all I would not be entertaining anymore and I would be spotting dealers that cheat the casino and deal to their partners and give them winning hands as they act like they are players.

And players that read a book and then think that what they learned from a book can help them win the big bank and perhaps break the casino.

This involves a lot of watching security cameras and on the floor watching. And if you catch someone it might involve going to court and other things that involve the justice system.

That is not how I want to spend my life and time on this earth. I enjoy entertaining audiences and having fun. That may be a good job for others but not for me. I was also asked to do the same thing for the Presidents casino in St. Louis about 5 years ago. But again I am not interested.
When I do close up I choose my audience. And if the audience is not a nice audience I pack up and move to the next table. When doing a formal show and I have a problem with a person I give him enough line to hang himself. Because they can't win because magic is MY game and they don't even know what the RULES are.

When I used to play cards I did it in the friendly little down the block games. And like magic I would CHOOSE who I played with very carefully.

The point in my demo is that it is a demo. But in a game I can have the deck passed to me - shuffle it - and then pass it to my partner for a cut. And then deal HIM four of a kind - three of a kind - two of a kind...

You may not find this useful but I do.



I wouldn't demo a real game scenario to an audience because most audiences think that the real game scenario is boring and it lacks theater. The real game scenario is only interesting and would be used when showing methods to something like the Harris security. And then showing them what to look for in CASINO cheating.

When I do a show there is some theater and Hollywood to it because that is what the audience expects. What the movies have shown them in movies like the sting. What the audience THINKS a shark can do and what the sharks REALLY do are often very different.

In Jack Pyles early days he spent a lot of money getting a collection of holdouts and shiners and other things card sharks use and put a show together with it and it was a flop. Why? because it was a lecture not an act of entertainment.

He showed them real world cheating and how a shark would come up with two of a kind.

Then he changed it and started to come up with a royal flush. Instead of the two of a kind and audiences went wow. No card shark would stack a royal flush or four aces because it is TO GOOD. That would draw attention to themselves because they may be TO LUCKY!

But being TO LUCKY for a magician in a MAGIC DEMO is GOOD THEATER. But I feel that since I used to play cards and I would CHOOSE the people I play with that If I did it different in a game and just used it to run up a hand for my partner I think it would blow by them. Because it blew by Jack Pyle, My Dad Billy Bishop, Both magicians that PLAY CARDS!

And Carl Jackson a card shark/pool shark who used the punch deal to pay for a house.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
tommy
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I am saying they hire card cheats on the basis that it takes one to catch one.
Also do not forget Black Jack is a house card game and others.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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Geno Munari used to own a small casino and do lectures on cheating in Las Vegas. Now he owns the Houdini Magic shops and is very successful. He sent me a video on how to make belly strippers with sand paper. This was a method that he learned from Charlie Miller. In fact the props he used Charlie Miller gave to him.

The point is that Geno Munari was and is a magician and he has been hired by casino's and latter on owned one. He met Charlie Miller when he was employed as the eye in the sky in a Las Vegas casino. This information is on this video tape and it was told to me in person by Geno Munari.

Casino's have hired magicians as consultants. Another name person that has been hired by a casino today is Darwin Ortiz. And then of course there is John Scarne. Mickey McDoogle. All magicians that do magic and also have an interest in card shark methods.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Luther
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Quote:
On 2005-06-18 09:00, tommy wrote:
There isn’t a thing on the Steve Fortes Game Protection Tapes that comply with Casino procedures and sections that deal with the overhand shuffle, what say you to him.


how about the fact that the GPS series repeatedly states that they're for private games?
bishthemagish
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Basically what have we learned?

That in some home games in the world players do shuffle the cards with the jog shuffle?

That some magicians Like Darwin Ortiz, Charlie Miller, and John Scarne have been employed by casino's and work as consultants when they are magicians. In fact Scarne had a successful vaudeville act and was a popular New York magician doing the cups and balls with baby chicks. And the blindfolded eyeless vision.

You couldn't be more magician than Scarne. Yet he wrote the book or books on casino cheating and changed the way casinos do business.

Or perhaps we learned that if someone were to cheat in a casino they wouldn't use the jog shuffle to shuffle the cards. Well I am not an expert on casino cheating but in most casinos the dealer shuffles the cards not the players.

Or perhaps we learned that if a card shark decided to cheat and they knew some moves that they might be smart enough to choose a game and the players where the moves wouldn't stick out. And the moves would be acceptable by the other players. Perhaps they would blend in while shuffling the deck. Perhaps they wouldn't look at the deck and talk to the other players about sports as they jog shuffled up two of a kind.

Maybe that might happen in the real world of cheating.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
tommy
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The important thing is: Glen as shown a piece of work that has untold potential for card magic and the card table. To any one who can not see that, all I can say is; There are none so blind as them that will not see.

Regards

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr.Tweed
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Quote:
On 2005-06-18 10:11, bishthemagish wrote:
Plus most card cheats are very good at playing cards. They only need to cheat or advantage play once or twice in an evening. Or if they are doing the punch deal they may set up the game to take the mark a little bit at a time over the whole evening.


This is incorrect, but a commonly held myth amongst magicians. Both on the "very good at cards" point and on the "once or twice an evening" point. It shows that you know nothing about the realities of cheating.

JC
Too lazy to work, too nervous to steal.
card cheat
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Mr. Tweed,

I am interested to know just why you disagree with the statement above. It seems to me that this is, by and large, a true statement. Here is why....

First of all, let's mention that, while there are an innumerable amount of ways to take down your average (and every) game, all methods of artifice must be invisible. This applies not only to visual aspects of game play, but the mental aspects of it as well. For example, a paper player must use his edge prudently or he will most certainly give himself away in his unusual betting habits. If you have read "Sharps and Flats" by Maskeleyne, you know it is reasoned that all slight of hand cheats get caught in the long run. Collusion is the most effective cheating method that can be discussed here, and you must be an EXTREMELY good player, and cheat to successfully beat a game using this method. I think that you also misunderstand the mind of a successful card cheat....

A bucket placed under a leaky pipe will, slowly but SURELY, fill with water. This metaphor was used by one of the most "capable" card cheats in the world when he described a successful cheating scam. Good cheats are the ones that you love. Good cheats are the ones that you stake-horse in good faith. Good cheats are always missed when they aren't around. Good cheats are the ones who take your money again and again, never getting caught, coming back again and again and again and again. Good cheats are the ones who don't let greed and immaturity get in the way of tempering their every action with prudence and tact. Knowing the value of you opponents' hole card(s) can be all that you need to take a game down. Location play, shuffle tracking, and even looking at your enemies' hole cards after you folded/lost/won can give you a devastating edge and insight into their minds. If you aren't good at cards, you will not be a career cheat. Cheating poker players is both hard work and stealing and you tell everyone that you are both too lazy and nervous to do that; that shows that you know at least something about the reality of cheating. That is to say at least you aren't a card cheat yourself. If you have cheated successfully, great. Add yourself to the list of millions of others who have cheated, do and will cheat every day.
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