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Scott F. Guinn Inner circle "Great Scott!" aka "Palms of Putty" & "Poof Daddy G" 6586 Posts |
To see an artistic performance of magic, watch Rene Lavand or Tommy Wonder. Their performances are artistic without being self-important, entertaining without being flippant, and VERY magical without being illogical.
These two are good examples of what magic can be when performed by an artist.
"Love God, laugh more, spend more time with the ones you love, play with children, do good to those in need, and eat more ice cream. There is more to life than magic tricks." - Scott F. Guinn
My Lybrary Page |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
"I am working for Cirque Du Soleil Alegria right now and I feel that it is the combination of visual spendor and meaning that gives them the right to call it art."
As I said earlier who really cares if its art or not the thing for myself and most ordanary people is Is it entertaining. sorry but I have found a lot of cirque Du Soleil to be art for art sake and far from good entertainment. Please do not think that this is in responce to your comments on magic it is not. If someone had asked what I thought of C D S that would have been my reply Phillip |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
On the other hand, a huge number of people find The Simpsons to be entertaining!
Does that make it art? Or is that just one more indication of the "dumbing down" of the human species? |
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
The Simpsons works on many levels, and some of them only SEEM like dumbing down, when in fact it's pretty sharp cultural criticism. Is it art? I can't say. Perhaps no less than any other comedy or comic act.
Kudos to all for continuing to work on this problem. Some good thoughts flying around. TCR |
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p.b.jones Inner circle Milford Haven. Pembrokeshire wales U.K. 2642 Posts |
"On the other hand, a huge number of people find The Simpsons to be entertaining!
Does that make it art? Or is that just one more indication of the "dumbing down" of the human species? " Hi Peter, I am not sure wether or not your post above was replying to mine or not? I am answering as if it was if It wan'nt then please ignore. I was not saying that because something was entertaining that it was art. what I was saying is Who really cares if something is or is not art. lets say they turned around tommorrow and Officialy decreed that magic is a craft and not an art. well whoopi, Big deal who cares? Most people do not care if my magic act,Cirque Du Soleil or the Simpsons are art, they either find something entertaining or they don't. Art can Drasticaly add to the entertainment I agree. But It can also distract. Phillip |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
PB, very good point.
All too often we let the "art police" do our thinking for us. We find absolute rubbish on the walls of art galleries, because a handful of people who should know better declared it to be "art". We dismiss a popular TV show or film because these same "art police" have declared it not to be "art". But we can think for ourselves, can't we? Philip says: "Art can Drasticaly add to the entertainment I agree. But It can also distract." Quite true. Sometimes we may find ourselves striving so hard to be "artistic" that we miss the point of what we are doing! And, after all, what we are (or should be) doing is entertaining the public. (But I STILL think The Simpsons suck!) |
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Mark Ennis Inner circle Raleigh, NC 1031 Posts |
I think the Vernon wand spin would also constitute as a flourish.
ME
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
Yeah, it would. Sure is purdy, huh? Actually, he credited that to Silent Mora. Vernon was very impressed with much of what Mora did.
Cheers, TCR |
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TylerErickson New user St. Paul, Minnesota 50 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-09-20 22:43, TenCardRow wrote: TCR, Was it the wand spin that vernon credited to Mora? I thought the "secret drop" was what Mora created. (In fact, I though Mora used a fan as cover) Set me straight if I am mistaken. Tyler P.S. Love your posts. |
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-09-20 23:16, TylerErickson wrote: Hi, Tyler, And thanks so much for your nice comment! I found this in "The Vernon Touch," Genii Magazine, October 1972 (I'm quoting more than needs to be here, but I find this kind of stuff so historically fascinating, I hope you'll understand): Magic has lost another "great" with the death of Silent Mora. Mora was another very nice person, but he was a highly opinionated person. He played some of the finest theatres in the country and was very successful in magic. He would have been more successful if he had not had controversies with theatre owners and stage managers. He used to get into arguments with them over some of the union tactics, etc., and they would refer to him as a radical. He really wasn't -- he was a fair-minded person who wasn't afraid to speak his mind. And he was a superlative sleight-of-hand performer. Mora and I became good friends. Years ago when I lived in Ottawa, Canada, he would appear there once or twice a year. Cliff Green and I would spend every evening with Mora at his hotel. Mora was one of the finest handlers of billiard balls I ever knew. His wand-spin vanish of a ball is well known by magicians. It was a part of my lecture and I always gave him credit for the move. Mora saw me do this in Boston one time and said that it was a little different from his method and he liked the way I did it. This remark, coming from the master, was very flattering to me. I am only sorry that I didn't have the opportunity to visit Silent Mora once again before he left us. Now, this still leaves room for the possibility of Mora performing this effect with a fan, but I don't remember reading any such description anywhere. Can you remember where you came across it? Warmly, TCR |
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Yoseph New user Austria 21 Posts |
My mom likes flourishes more better than magic.
thank you, Yoseph |
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
Dragonclaw wrote:
"Flourishes to me are much more than a display of skill, or an interlude to a magic trick. They ARE a way for an artist to express themselves, much like ice skaters, or gymnists." You're right that ice skaters demonstrate skill - but they also combine that skill with high order presentation skills. Music, choreography, physical expression - combined to communicate some sort of story or at least a mood (usually romantic, but whatever...). I don't see any of this incorporated by the flourish guys into a demonstration of rapid fire cuts... "There are many great flourish artists out there you may or may not of heard of. Jerry Cestkowski, De'vo, Yoseph, Marius, and all of the Ulmen4." Who? "I also disagree with you stating that a magic effect would be more memorable than flourishes. I believe it is the artist that can convey their passion, not the vehicle used." You're completely right. But you must also agree that a magic effect with some kind of presentation, delivered with conviction by a performer who has a fully developed character has more chance of being memorable for an audience than 'some guy' doing a cyclical series of flashy cuts? "I have a tape I got from a friend, of the Ulmen4 performing at a castle, 4 people, hanging upside down(tied by their feet), blindfolded, doing flourishes to a drum below them. Exchanging packets, and doing stuff you have never dreamed of. ANYONE who has witnessed it, will remeber them, much sooner than any magic trick." This image is really hilarious - but I think you're right that it would be memorable. I think you're wrong if you believe that it would be considered high art. I think people would remember the event the same way they would recall seeing a decent circus act - not in the same way they would recall seeing a great magician (or even a great circus). In the latter case they would remember the person as much as the effects. In your example they would recall the event as a novelty. "Even under less extreme situations, Jerry Cestkowski, even standing up right in front of you, will also be remebered before any magic trick. Their display of skill is impressive, but it goes much further than that." It's one thing to state such a view but you fail to justify it in any way. I think an impressive series of flourishes, devoid of any presentation would be remembered - but only as much as seeing some hack do a sponge bunny routine at a magic convention would stick in the mind. If you think that a guy doing some visual cuts would be remembered long after people forgot a performance of the flying illusion by David Copperfield (or any other great magic effect, well-performed) I think you are sadly mistaken. "Anyone that has appreciates and understands the deeper meaning of flourishes, will get offended by magicians comments." Can you please provide an explanation of the deeper meaning of flourishes, because I'd love to hear it. "This is what we believe in. Flourishes, in our opinion is not a small, insignificant piece of magic, but an artform by itself." I think you're assuming that all magicians think flourishes are insignificant. I certainly don't - they are an important part of my act. But not the most important part. I use some judicious sleights in my act to communicate details about my character to the audience. (For example I do a one hand shuffle and a Nevada poker dealer's shuffle that is quite pretty.) However I disagree with you that flourishes by them self constitute an artform. Rather they are tools of the performance art of card magic. They will always be subservient to the art of magic. You state that "Several are currently trying to seperate flourishes from magic." This is really pointless, because no matter how much you try to distance yourself - as soon as you pull out some cards and start flourishing a lay audience is going to think "oh, a magician!" Of course, that doesn't matter if you just perform these for yourselves, and never work for laymen. I've met Dan and Dave Buck and they are GREAT at what they do. But they're not artists - they're kids who do some wild stuff with cards that impresses heck out of other magicians at conventions. There's nothing wrong with that at all. In the end most anything can be taken to a form of art - but a guy in a tracksuit doing cuts is a form of parochial art - not high art. If I was you I'd just keep doing what you're doing and enjoy yourself. In the end who cares whether magicians accept flourishes devoid of any meaning or purpose as an art form (they won't) - none of that matters as long as you're enjoying yourself? On a related tangent - I think that the interest in super fast flourishes amongst kids getting into magic is related to the whole Xtreme sports phenomena. I think if one of you guys got a huge video screen and set up a stand at an Xtreme sports event and did your thang to the sounds of some incomprehensible deathmetal music you'd be a big hit and probably make some decent money out of sponsorship deals. (I get 10% for the idea.) But let's face it, they'd still be wheeling you out at these events as a novelty act... Best & etc PS. I think of these guys as Xtreme Cardicianz, but R. Paul Wilson once hilariously described them to me as "Cut Monkeys".
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Mark Ennis Inner circle Raleigh, NC 1031 Posts |
George Devol's post is right on the money. My sentiments exactly.
PS - I am still laughing at the "Ulman 4" hanging upside down and blind folded while doing flourishes to a drum beat. Is it a real blindfold or one of those "mentalist blindfolds" with the cotton and silver dollars and all of the other good stuff? PPS - George Devol writes... "incomprehensible deathmetal music" this is an interesting combination - incomprehensible deathmetal is considered to be redundant (as acknowledged by the Department of Redundancy Department) and deathmetal music is considered to be an oxymoron. Then again, I only speak because I am perfect.
ME
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ASW Inner circle 1879 Posts |
Ennis, I like the cut of your jib. But not a flourish cut...
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"
A magician on the Genii Forum "I would respect VIPs if they respect history." Hideo Kato |
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Yoseph New user Austria 21 Posts |
Hallo,
I have personnally seen the Ulmen4 doing what you describe. My father took my to see them when I was young. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen. It is what inspired me to become a flourish artist. They are far from cutmonkeys. Cutmonkeys are the kids that you have seen. I don't believe you have ever seen them before, so you can't judge them. And to judge them based on Dragon guys post or the cutmonkeys just isn't fair. They use real blindfolds and do much more than that. They don't do endless flash cuts, that's left to the so called artists at the conventions. People travel for days to see the Ulmen4 in the summer at the burgfest. They are artists, using flourishes as their artform. I also don't agree with everything Dragon guy said. Please respond Dragon guy, would like to find out who you got a tape from. They normally do not allow filming during their demonstrations. People in my country do not associate us with the magicians. We are completely seperate, and people do understand that, because they have been exposed to flourish artists for years. As I understand it, there aren't too many flourish artists (and most people don't even know they exist in the U.S.), and a TON of magicians, hence the reason people atomatically associate the two. Flourishes are not subserviant to magic, most artists here get paid 5 times what a magician makes, and are generally held in higher esteem. Anyone can do a magic trick, not anyone can do flourishes. It is almost pointless to try to make you understand, as you have not even seen what you are talking about, and obviously don't care to even try to understand. Now I understand the reasons flourishes are having so much trouble in the U.S. I still respect your oppinion, Thank you, Yoseph/Kathy |
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