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Patrick Redford Inner circle Michigan 1751 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-27 17:28, Peter Marucci wrote: You seem to have missed my joke. That's okay - it really wasn't that humorous in retrospect. With all of that aside, I completely agree with you. Now that we've come this far - what can we do as a community to help this shift. Many of us already recognize there is an issue and doing such is always the first large step. |
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Patrick Differ Inner circle 1540 Posts |
If I were to feret out someone's personal secrets, I would do it purely for profit. Profit would be my only motivation. Profit motivates me. With profit comes power because money is power (in most cities ) While money can't buy me true love, it can help me live the life I choose/want to live. Money and power are the same thing.
Ya wanna find the problem? Follow the money. Just follow the money and see where it goes. Avarice, greed, whatever you want to call it...it is a driving force in our society. Sell it all for the mighty dollar (or peso...) and live the life you've always dreamed of...yadda, yadda, yadda... I've met my share of people like this, and I've been truly disappointed. Now we know the problem, are we really seeking a viable solution? I propose to take the money out of the equation. Without money, what's left? True love. And as soon as you remove the $$$...expect to be called a lunatic, a madman, a weirdo, and a queer, because you're gonna rub most people the wrong way. And the only way they'll be able to retalliate is to make a personal attack and say you don't BELONG. Yadda, yadda, yadda. So, is it for love or is it for money? What is your need to know?
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy; The way into my parlour is up a winding stair, And I've a many curious things to show when you are there. Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain, For who goes up your winding stair -can ne'er come down again. |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Magicbygeorge writes:
Quote:
You seem to have missed my joke. . . . I completely agree with you. Now that we've come this far - what can we do as a community to help this shift. Many of us already recognize there is an issue and doing such is always the first large step." Sorry, I -- who prides himself on his sense of humor -- totally missed it and took it the wrong way; I apologize. As for helping this shift, this is a sticky point. I almost hate to mention it because about a zillion posters will flame me for it. Okay, here goes: Magic is now for kids. Period. Try as we might, we will never be able to cross the dichotomy of requiring supernatural powers to make things happen, and yet not having supernatural powers. Kids accpet the silly and the comedic, which is magic. Nothing wrong with Punch and Judy shows; but they are specifically for kids. Nothing wrong with marionettes; but they're primarily for kids. Nothing wrong with comic books; but they are mostly for kids. And there's nothing wrong with magic but IT'S GENERALLY FOR KIDS!!! And anyone who says any different is simply fooling themselves. Period! Some magicians try to do magic for adults but they almost never succeed. They table hop so they get adults who are under the influence at least partially (and, therefore, childlike); they do comedy magic (but that's actually all comedy and very little, if any, magic.); they pretend to be performing for adults (but it is really the kids who drag the adults to the shows). At this juncture in the narrative, several flamers will raise the issue of, for example, Jeff McBride. Okay, but he doesn't do magic for adults; he does theatre for adults. When he does magic, it's for kids, since -- as Fitzkee correctly points out -- any reasonable person cand use his or her own mental prowess to figure out just about any magic trick IF HE OR SHE WANTS TO! So, in a nutshell: Magic is for kids; do it for kids and don't pretend it's something else. (If you want to be centre state at Carnegie Hall, then play the piano like Horowitz.) Now -- flame away. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Okay, fairy tales and cartoons are for kids too.
And our inner children can stay with us till we leave this world. Magic is very near the place from which hope springs. There is no secret to hope. Nor is there any purpose in knowing the means of magic if not to bring the experiece of magic to others. Let's not confuse the instant gratification of a mystery solved with the feeling of magic we can get attending a performance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jolyonjenkins Inner circle United Kingdom 1181 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-27 07:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Yes, but this cuts both ways. Being in possession of a secret that someone else badly wants can place you in a position of power over them - power that you do not want. In that case, the question may be, not, "do they have a good reason for knowing this secret?" but "what is my justification for witholding the secret?" (Of course, there may be very good justification)
Jolyon Jenkins
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-29 08:43, rjenkins wrote:...this cuts both ways. Being in possession of a secret that someone else badly wants can place you in a position of power over them ... There you go. That is one of the issues I have with this community. Those who invent can participate in the economy of secrets, where secrets are PRIVATE currency between the inventor and those who wish to trade. HOWEVER, in this case we are discussing an economy where published secrets are traded for stuff, or worse, where a breach in the private economy has made gossip of someone's hard work and private currency. That's my issue. If folks want to keep their experience and findings out of the public (magic shop) econony... fine with me.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jolyonjenkins Inner circle United Kingdom 1181 Posts |
Agreed.
What about secrets that are in the public domain, insofar as they are widely published in secondary sources (but for which it is impossible to identify anyone who owns them -- say, the French Drop), but which may be unknown to the layman? There may be an economic consequence to divulging them (i.e. loss to those who make a living from the secret) but not to anyone who could lay claim to ownership.
Jolyon Jenkins
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
We live in a strange culture that blames a drug for being addictive.
We live in a culture that confuses nudity, eroticism, pornography and exhibitionism. Likewise we live in a culture that separates knowledge from its attendant responsibility. Instead we dilute the value of the knowledge by making it gossip and trivia. The ethical question is about the same for dealing in drugs. Just because 'they' want 'it' does not mean it is right for you to participate in that transaction. You still have to make your own choices about what 'it' is to you and what you will offer 'they' who want it. Psst... want to know a secret?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Peter -- so as not to disappoint you...
Magic is only for kids? You can consider yourself FLAMED!!!!!!! But to get back to the original point of people wanting to know the "secret" -- there's been a good discussion so far on the need to know, but there's a major difference between a "need to know" and a "want to know." A "need to know" is when I want to do the dancing cane: I have to know how it's done in order to do it. Just like if I want to make beef Wellington this weekend I have to know how to make it. Otherwise I can't do it. A "want to know" is curiosity. I agree with the comments on knowledge equalling power, which accounts for those whose "want to know" is based on more than curiosity, but from what I've read here so far it appears that spectators who ask for the secret are expressing a "want to know," not a "need to know."
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Georgefl,
Okay, if magic is not for kids, then just who is it for? It sure isn't for adults! BTW, It's a whole lot easier to do the dancing cane than it is to make Beef Wellington. But, given my "druthers", I'd rather have the meal than the show! LOL! |
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jolyonjenkins Inner circle United Kingdom 1181 Posts |
Quote:
Arguably yes, in the case of other magicians, or magician wannabees who have an insatiable demand for secrets. Because feeding the demand will inflame rather than sate it. But not for laypeople, who are just annoyed at being put in a position of ignorance relative to you. Actually I think this is more of a problem for the amateur magician than the professional because a) they are less likely to carry off the "entertainment" bit successfully, so the "secret bit becomes more important", and b) they are more likely to be performing for friends and family, to whom they have prior and continuing ethical obligations.
Jolyon Jenkins
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-29 10:30, rjenkins wrote:...But not for laypeople, who are just annoyed at being put in a position of ignorance relative to you... This is a different problem. What secret? Didn't you account for the magic in your routine? Such is a basic principle.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Peter,
I agree it's easier to do the DC than to make beef Wellington. We make it now and then and it takes a whole buncha steps, but the kitchen sure smells good... As far as magic being for kids, I was half-joking when I said to consider yourself flamed (which means you were half-flamed???). But I'm with the camp that says magic works for adults too. Maybe it's for the kid inside the adult, that kid who hasn't been totally fazed and turned cynical by growing up and by facts, reality, news, and a "we can't do it that way because we've always done it this way" mentality. Kids play, dream, imagine, wonder, question, and explore until such a time when they are taught to believe that all this is just for kids. A kid will see a stick on the ground, and, without a moment's hesitation, pick it up and use it as a sword, rifle, light saber, ax, magical staff, bow, or what have you; an adult will see the same stick and push it off to the side. Being in theatre, I honestly do not see any diffeence between people (kids or adults) going to see a play or a movie and temporarily "suspending their disbelief" and being pulled into the story, and in people watching a (good) magic act and temporarily forgetting that what they're seeing can't be done. On the other hand, I can also honestly say I've watched far more actors pulling an audience into the story than I have seen magicians pulling an audience into the magic. Okay, your turn to half-flame me back.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
George,
No half-flame or flame here. In fact, I agree entirely with what you say (well, the second half of your post, anyway.) Just as there are "grown up kids", there are also "child-like adults". The "grown up kids" and the adults will "pooh-pooh" a magic show or a fantasy movie or play; "child-like adults" and children will be enthralled by it. We all too often force choldren to grow up too quickly and they lose, also too quickly, that child-like fascination with EVERYTHING. Bottom line: I may grow old, but I refuse to grow up! |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-30 13:01, Peter Marucci wrote: How true. A few years ago I did a fair amount of design development work at Islands of Adventure at Universal Studios Florida and spent a lot of time at the park. After a while, I started watching the customers. It was amazing. Some adults seemed to have the attitude that the whole thing was for their kids: they took the kids on the rides, took photos, bought food and souvernirs, and so on, but appeared to be totally oblivious to the stories and the experience. Other adults (especially young mothers) actually got right down to their kids' levels and shared the experience with them, explaining this or that and getting excited along with the kids. Then there were the teenagers and the adults without kids, most of whom appeared to be mostly interested in the food, the shopping, and the day outdoors at a "must-see" tourist destination. Sure there were exceptions, but I observed so many people apparently missing the point of walking thru these fantasy places that I thought it was a shame, especially since I knew how much money was being poured into creating the park. On the other hand, the accounting department probably couldn't have cared less why people were there, as long as they bought the tickets, the food, and the souvenirs.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
George,
To quote Dorothy Parker: "You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think." ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Speaking of Dorothy Parker, at a dinner Somerset Maugham asked her to come up with a poem.
She said: "Higgldey, piggledy "My black hen "She lays eggs "For gentlemen." "Humpf," Maugham humpfed. "It seems to me that I've heard it." Parker continued: "But prod her with gun "Or lariat, "She won't come across "For the proletariat." |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Touche' times two!
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Jerome Finley V.I.P. SLC 3419 Posts |
Personally, when I am astounded by something I witness another do (be it magic or anything really), I become humbled and very joyful.
I don't really have a "need" to know and I delight in that. In that moment, it IS magic, it IS a mystery and that is my reward. "knowing" would take that away, for me at least. I love being "fooled", I enjoy having my socks knocked off! Just because you don't know does not mean you have to or even should. Selling "secrets" to anyone on a massive scale is morally irresponsible. Don't feed the addict, help/aid/assist them! Our art is going down the hill on one side and back up the other. We all know what curiosity did to the cat. I'm assuming there are no cats reading this thread, but you get my drift. Take delight in not knowing. What we don't know CAN hurt us and what we know may do us no good anyhow. Double edged swords, it will be unique to the individual. Blah, blah, blah . . . senseless banter from, Jerome.
"Join my update list here!" http://eepurl.com/uE3Jf
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-11 23:20, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Simple - magic does not cause catastrophic organ failure in the human body - many of the drugs on the market, do. Magic does not generally cause one to buy magic to the exclusion of all else due to a chemical imperative that is locked into the body - several of the major addictive drugs on the street today, do and once hooked, getting free of that chemical imperative can be extremely painful - ask any herion addict who has gone "cold turkey." Magic does not cause an increase in crime in order for its addicts to support their habits - many of the addictive drugs on the street today do, even in the countries that have legalized them, though to a lesser extent than in the countries that have not. Magic has a MUCH lower death rate from overdose than drugs. Magic does not cause the spread of deadly or damaging diseases as the drug culture does and as prostitution does. Hence, magic, which actually fosters reading, helps a person improve their eye-hand coordination, self-confidence in front of groups of people and promotes interaction between people, would more likely tend to be classified as a "positive addiction" under the DSM-IV (TR) as opposed to any of the myriad of substance abuse problems. Just some points on your comment. Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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