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Carrie Sue Veteran user Auburn, MI 332 Posts |
Sensational post, John! Way to split the horns of the debate!
Thanks also to Leland for actually asking the copyright holders (one or two) what they thought. Their responses are also most helpful. If memory serves, the last true copyright infringement case was brought by David Copperfield against a French illusionist who copied his Flying routine move for move. D.C. won, of course, and he deserved to. However, if I perform a routine from Simon Aronson's book "Try The Impossible," which I just borrowed again from my public library system, I don't think that's the same thing as what the Frenchman did. We're still relating some of this to the arena of music, and it's interesting that a music book I bought recently contained a copyright notice reminding me that public performance of the material was prohibited. Exactly what constitutes that? I plan to ask the copyright holders that question, and I will report back. CSR |
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
Interesting developments and discussion! Skill versus Effect....Hmmm...Gotta run but I'll post back later!
I would be interested to know if the performers on L & L videos felt the same. They are in effect putting the effects in the public domain, because how can they prove you didn't watch it? I would think the artists would take a different view.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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paulmagic Loyal user Malaysia, now In New Zealand 290 Posts |
I am learning some interesting things from thsi thread. Thanks magi. No real other insight to contribute but thought you might be encouraged to know that there are some like me who apreciate the insightful discussion.
Many Blessings!!
Paul |
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-03 20:48, John Long wrote: Certainly. You are paying for a trade skill. No one has the market cornered on how to lay bricks. If you want to move this discussion to construction - you may be able to build a house, but not a Frank Lloyd Wright house. Those plans are copyrighted. Quote:
Sheet music does not provide a skill, it provides a musical arrangement. Musical skills are learned as skills and are your own. Musical arrangements are creations and protected. Quote:
So who determines whether a magic book fits the "self-help" category, or the music. I would certainly put a book on slight of hand in the former, but then, I would guess that most slight of hand is also public domain. Then there are other books like Troy Hooser's Destroyers that is full of specific tricks, not just the slight of hand. This is a great distinction. I certainly agree that sleights, by and large, are skills and public domain. They are generic skills, kind of like juggling. And magical effects are not trade skills at all, they are theater which is governed by intellectual property protections. They have a discernable structure. Quote:
If I learn from a book, or figure out how to do a trick on my own, and then use my own presentation, I think that that may fall into the "self-help" category. So if you memorize Andrew Lloyd Webber's Phantom of the Opera on your own, does that give you the right to book a theater and start a performance troup? The answer if you don't know is absolutely not. You would be doing it illegally and be held civilly liable. You can't set out to make money from someone else's work without rights. I doubt any of us on the board could afford the license rights to that play. Quote:
Yet, if magic were to fall into the music category, then I would understand the site on copyrights that Clifford provided(and thanks for that) to say that once I sell the book(or what ever) that had the trick, then I no longer had the right to perform it - ouch. I would hope we would realize the value of artistic work and be willing to support great art! If we would be treated properly as a magician, we must treat the art properly. So yes, I think you should show continuing support for what is in your continuing performances. I have a huge library of magic tomes, I think I have every one I've ever bought. I am discriminating in what I spend my time and money on, so while it is a nice collection, it is not outrageous. Quote:
That wasn't so bad, was it ;-P You brought up a great distinction! Bravo!
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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drkptrs1975 Elite user North Eastern PA 452 Posts |
Let me make this a little more complicated. I try to think of my own tricks, well, the way I approach it is think of an effect(What you want to do). Think of an effect, and mess around until you find a solution. Many times I do find a solution. However I do believe that every effect has been taken(or someone has beaten you to it). However you could have a different method. You could have unkowningly copied someone elses effect, but you may have a different method. So Lets say for example that you and I were independently thinking of the same effect( which is by coincidence), and came up with two different solutions, so am I wrong to do it my way and you do it your way?
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
I don't mean to say this in a judgemental or negative way, but if you are not completely convinced that what you are doing is right, then it is wrong for you.
I sense a lot of discusion turning towards "what about this hypothetical gray area", and "what about that one". And although I certainly understand someone wanting clarification on things, I think it is important That doesn't mean that everything that you think is right, is right. If you have examined the law, and feel you are within it. Considered how it looks and feels to others(how it affects your Christian witness), and you have prayed about it, and gotten confirmation from God, then you are probable good there. But in cases where you are wavering, or unsure, just walk away from the edge. At a men's conference a number of years ago, I heard an absolutely lfe changing statement: If you aren't going to towards God. You are going away from Him. Is what you are doing, going towards Him, or away from Him. My like has been greatly simplified since then. I just ask, is this moveing towards God? Even a lot of things that really aren't that bad, just don't get me any closer to God, so I skip them. Life is much simpler if we don't try to complicate it, by seeing how close we can get to the edge. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-04 20:38, drkptrs1975 wrote: Then it's not the same effect, now is it. And I imagine your presentation would be completely your own design, so that is unique too. So what is the problem? Unique creation is yours my friend, regardless if it looks like something else. If your creation of an effect is from copying something you saw in an original performance, well that is questionable. Just because you CAN clone someone's effect, doesn't mean you should. There aren't very many plots in magic or books in general for that matter! But we can take those few plots in countless tangents. Thanks Bro David! I am starting to feel like Dr. Laura...only taller.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-04 14:14, Carrie Sue wrote: If in Simon Aronson's book "Try The Impossible," the copyright stated that the effects were not to be performed for others or used for commercial purposes then Simon could sue you. So, it is the same really. It just so happens that DC has a lot of money and is able to follow thru with his law suit. Music is pretty cut and dry really. If you perform a song in public you need to contact the author for the rights to do it. Possibly pay a royalty. IF that's what the copyright says. Just because we don't understand the copyright or don't agree with it doesn't mean we don't have to abide by it. John |
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drkptrs1975 Elite user North Eastern PA 452 Posts |
Like I said, every effect has been taken, it will be very rare, that you would find something to do that someone else has not already done, weather it is the same method or not. I do agree with respecting the authors rights, but how far are you going to go?
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Clifford the Red Inner circle LA, California 1941 Posts |
That's a bit like saying every book has already been written.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
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