|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 | ||||||||||
WalterZ New user 83 Posts |
Speaking of books vs video, I am a firm believer that you can learn technical details much better from a book. However, as far as exposure goes, I think video is much better. You would spend a lot more time reading an accurate description of an effect in play than to simply watch the performance, and THEN read up on it if you decide it is worth your time.
~WalterZ~
Themystifier.com |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
It depends on the book and the video. For example, the explanation of the Silent Mora Wand Spin in the Dai Vernon Book of Magic is almost incomprehensible. The video explanations are much clearer.
Ganson, for all his contributions to magic, was not the best at explaining things in words. He often left out critical details, because they either seemed obvious to him, or he did not like the wording the performer wanted him to use. A classic example of this is his explanation of the "Ball, Cone and Handkerchief." I attended a lecture by Vernon, in which he explained that the method of copping the billiard ball was much more simple than Ganson's explanation. Vernon said, "You thumb palm the ball. It's that simple. Lewis didn't like that explanation, because he said 'you can't thumb palm a billiard ball,' but I showed him how to do it. You thumb palm the ball -- thumb palm it, d***it!" Likewise, some of the explanations in Erdnase are much less detailed than they could be. There is a crucial piece of information left out of the explanation of the DPS. But a lesson from Roger Klause will clear that right up. Now, I'm not sure what you mean by the term "exposure." Magic DVD's, unless marketed to the general public, are NOT exposure. They are teaching tools. If you mean "general revelation of method," I would accept that. But I don't know if I would agree with your premise. The quality of the information on DVD's has increased in some areas and decreased in others. We have a plethora of DVD's that are coming out from people who really have no business putting them out. This has been caused by the ready availability of Digital Video cameras and DVD burners. Think about this. In 1980, a video camera that would record on VHS tape with really sharp resolution cost about $15,000 for an entry level model. Now you can purchase a Mini DV camera that has sharper focus and better resolution for less than $500. You can purchase a standalone DVD burner for $300. So, for $800, plus the cost of the blank DVD's you can be a video producer. But this doesn't mean that you can put something of value out. Think of the really great books on sleight of hand, for example, that explain things in real detail with any accuracy and clarity. There aren't many compared to the multitude of worthless paper on the market.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-22 04:22, WalterZ wrote: I think you learn better in taking lessons from someone, a master class or just gathering with another magician. Especially in magic. I'm not writing off videos and books because I am a self-learner. But you do have to go beyond that and search of higher learner in other ways. There is something to be said about learning from one another.
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
|||||||||
Glenn Godsey Special user 737 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-22 13:37, Bill Palmer wrote: Excellent and very rational post, Bill! I love the few great books and many videos/DVDs. But, now we are in an era where a magician with no accomplishments and no performing experience can attain a reputation by producing a DVD of one variant of one trick. Some have become "famous names" just by making a DVD of a slight variant of the torn and restored card or a bill switch! To some young magicians, these guys are as famous as Dai Vernon. Then, it follows that instead of aspiring to be be a fine performer or thinker, many aspire to produce a DVD that establish their reputation. From there, they go to the lecture circuit! Quite a short cut from the old days of having to spend years actually performing for the public before becoming a "name" magician. Best regards, Glenn Godsey |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Agreed Marshall. If I wanted to see David Roth ... would start by calling him by phone. Am pondering the logistics of a trip to meet Andrew Galloway.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
|||||||||
Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
Apologies in advance for being crass, but, in this day and age, I think that the discussion on ethics in magic roughly divides into two camps: dealers/inventors and consumers.
Most dealers seem to be in it mainly to make as much money as they can and the consumers are in it to save as much money as they can. Most of the comments I read about like: "buy the effect if you intend to perform it" are written by people who are in the business of selling the effect or "the move". On the other hand, you have the consumers who are tired of buying a $40.00 item only to find that the effect is fraudulently misrepresented, is extremely derivative (of someone else's effect or move) or is just plain terrible. I understand Bill Palmer's point about, if you are working, a $40.00 book or tape is easily affordable. But to paraphrase Senator Everett Dirksen (when he was discussing the incremental effect of incremental tax increases): "$40.00 here, $40.00 there and pretty soon you are talking about real money". Don't get me wrong. I have no problem paying $50.00 to 100.00 for a real defining piece of magic that is relatively exclusive and not being performed by every Tom, Dick and Harry out there. But, when you buy something that is mass marketed and only then find out that it is a piece of derivative crap, how much derivative crap can you or your budget tolerate before you start getting cynical and jaded and start going into "self-protective" mode? And, the trend now-a-days seems to be to sell ONE item for the price that you used to be able to buy a book or set of lecture notes for. And then, it frequently turns out to be an over-hyped over-priced item at best. Add to that the fact that the following practices seem to be acceptable to the vast majority of magicians and magic clubs: 1. Borrowing books from public libraries. 2. Magicians sessioning with one another. 3. One magician buys a DVD and invites his magic clique over for a communal viewing. 4. Magicians freely borrowing or lending books and videos amongst themselves. 5. A group of magicians going in together and buying one copy of a book or item for community sharing. 6. The selling or trading of used magic either on-line or via the local magic club swap meets. 7. Lending libraries of the local magic club where books and videos can be freely (no pun intended) checked out by the members. 8. Magic dealers willing to sell anything to anybody provided they have the right credentials (i.e., money). The foregoing are common practices amongst magicians. Not all of the same practices by the same magicians but...you get the picture. With all that going on, we then try to resolve the nebulous ethereal concept of "Ethics in Magic". Add to that the fact that in today's age, magic seems to have been commoditized and has become just another thing to buy or sell. Sad. So very sad. I remember when I first started out in magic (1980), how reverently I treated my first "REAL" magic books. (The Jinx, the Eugene Burger booklets, the Paul Harris books, the Goldstein "Color Series", the many Dover edition books on performance, the little pamphlets from Tannen's, Magic, Inc, Irelands, etc.) I remember the many fine books put out by Kaufman and Hermetic Press--many of which are OOP. Today, we cannot keep up with the volumes of material being released. Most of it is derivative or extremely derivative and most of it is crudely produced, sold as single effects or as e-books and adds very little value to the existing magic knowledge base. As fast as you can get to a printshop software program or a cheap video editing program, you become an author!! Lots of the DVDs are burned on home computers and lots of the "books" are released as e-books. It really is hard to keep from getting jaded in your pursuit of magic knowledge. And, while trying to keep up with the onslaught of released materials, your love and appreciation of the wonder of the magic within starts to diminish. Throughout this process, I periodically take a look at the "Ethics" comments that are made by many of the Café members. Nothing has changed; same comments, different day. Sitting back for afar, it has become apparent to me that the ethics comments roughly break down (no pun intended) into the two classifications I mentioned at the beginning of this post: 1. The dealer/inventors who would like everyone to buy and own a copy of any effect they perform, and, 2. The consumers whom more and more are, at best, begrudgingly willing only to "comply" with copyright LAWS and lump all the nebulous "ethics" questions into one big bag and bury it in the dirt. It all depends on whose ox is being gored. What have we become? And, do we only have ourselves to blame? Mike P.S. Despite the foregoing, I have no problem with magic inventors selling “performance rights only” licenses IF AND ONLY IF the seller is up front about this practice and has the limitation prominently spelled out on the front of the package so that the buyer is given fair notice of what is being sole PRIOR to the sale taking place. But, look for very few sellers to be willing to do this; it might restrict their sales (and total dollar volume) to the masses.
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Turk wrote:
Quote:
Add to that the fact that the following practices seem to be acceptable to the vast majority of magicians and magic clubs: I can't really fault any of the ideas listed, although I wish it were practical for magic dealers to "audition" their customers. A friend of mine who is a magic dealer regularly rents magic videos to his customers. One major producer of magic videos took him to task over this, stating that it was illegal. It isn't. It's just like renting a video from Blockbuster or any other video store. It may not be ethical, but it's legal. However, the upside of this was that almost every time he rented a video, the person who rented it bought it. That may sound incredible, but it is true. But regarding the dealers that sell to anyone who has the money ... well, they are dealers. That's what they do. They sell stuff. If you don't want your products delivered to all and sundry, don't wholesale them to Murphy's. And if you want exclusive stuff, check Murphy's list to see if it is available from them. If it is, it isn't exclusive. The one part of this list I would find troubling would be number 5, if the group decided to make copies of the material. Serial sharing, that is, passing a book or DVD around, is not illegal. It may not be to the liking of most dealers, but that's the only way some people can afford to learn things. If someone decides he likes a book enough to have a permanent copy of his own, he will generally purchase it. But if he makes a copy, then that's a big no-no. And if he performs professionally from a shared video or book, I would feel that he would be violating the ethics of the situation. Now, I'll admit that I am a dealer. I don't advertise my company on the Café, so I never post anything about my products here. It is precisely because I am a dealer and a publisher, that I am very concerned about the fairness of what goes on in the world of magic. When I see my products appearing on lists in forms they were never produced in, such as e-books of my hardbacks, I become very adamant about getting it stopped. And I do take action. But even if you are not a professional performer, the prices of these things are relatively low. For example, most DVD's cost about $30.00. Some are a bit higher. some are lower. The prices have come down greatly in the last few years. Books cost more. Books are really more difficult to produce, and require a much larger investment, unless you go to a "book at a time" publisher. And there is the question of storage and taxes on inventory. Once you have a DVD mastered, you can run off as many or as few as you want. DVD duplication is relatively inexpensive. You can get good DVD's for less than $2.00 each, complete with cases and art, if you purchase 1000 of them. The profit is much higher on a DVD than on a book. And the storage problems are a lot fewer. But back to the issue of price. You can get a new copy of Erdnase for less than $10.00. This is the same book that sold for $2.00 back during the 1960's. That's a bargain. And the Dover reprint of Bobo is about the same price. So if someone says "Should I get David Roth's DVD's or Bobo?" I would reply, "Yes. Get all of them." If you are a coin worker and you don't have Bobo, you are missing some of the basics. And if you are a serious coin worker and you don't have the Roth material, you are missing out on very important work. If you purchase all of the David Roth DVD's on the L&L web site, as sets, they will cost you about $220.00. Add the cost of Bobo, that's $10.00. Total, including the free postage, would be $230.00. That sounds like a big chunk of change. But if you are a hunter, you are going to spend at least that much on your shotgun and shells or your rifle and ammo. If you are a biker, that won't even pay for a seat for a Harley. Doing magic requires personal sacrifice. Sometimes you need to make choices. It's like the guy who goes to the magic club meeting and says, "Fellows, I have a big problem. My wife needs surgery, and I can't afford it. Can you help me, please. Anything you can give me, I'll pay back somehow." One of his friends says, "Fred, we know you too well. You are just going to spend anything we give you on magic." Fred replies, "No. I won't. Magic money, I've got. Surgery money is what I need." All kidding aside. There are a lot of us who are dealers and performers who will teach someone who can't afford lessons or books. Nobody needs to steal from us. When I was just getting started, people helped me out. And I do the same for others now. But I do it strictly voluntarily.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Turk wrote:
Quote:
What have we become? And, do we only have ourselves to blame? You're describing a sizeable minority, not the majority. There is ethical behavior all around. And there is consensus for many ethical issues. Aim high.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
When I first went into the Army, I was told that we would receive information on a "need to know" basis. I think that's the way that magic should be disseminated.
I am privy to a lot of secret information that is not published anywhere. Why? Because I keep secrets.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-22 19:41, Bill Palmer wrote: Great post Bill... I would like to add - Plus if the magician does one show most magic can be written off at tax time. See a pro tax guy and using a pro tax guy is worth the investment. And that is the magic word. Magic is an investment and one of the few hobbies that a person can do - then make money with it - then invest it back into their hobby. you can't do that with most hobbies. Like remote control boats or airplanes. Or camping equipment. Or snow or water skiing. Magicians are lazy. When magicians used to come into my family magic shop and complain about the prices. Now considered to be low and the good old days. I used to tell them to do some shows. Or book a restaurant. Take that haunted hanky and a set of sponge balls and a deck of cards and a set of Chinese sticks scotch and soda and go out and make some money in a restaurant. Only two did out of 15 years we had our magic shop.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
|||||||||
Turk Inner circle Portland, OR 3546 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-06-22 22:27, Bill Palmer wrote: Bill, I like the "Need to Know" analogy. And, like you, I am very free with my time and information especially when I am working with someone who is just getting into magic. Magic is an exciting endeavor and if you can keep the spark alive in someone, maybe, just maybe, that spark will provide the energy that keeps the magic torch burning. On another note, Bill, I'm having difficulty understanding your analogy (stated in a prior post) of it being alright to teach someone some "generic" magic but it is not alright to teach a specific effect--like the Aronson Stack. Why am I having difficulty with this analogy? Well, because in a prior post, I previously listed 8 practices that seem to be commonly accepted practices amongst magicians and you commented that "I can't really fault any of the ideas listed". Amongst those 8 practices were the practices of magicians sessioning and magicians lending material back and forth. Conceptionally speaking, if it is O.K. for magicians to "session" and for magicians to borrow and lend material back and forth--and, as part of that lending activity, I can lend a magician the Aronson book that teaches the Stack, it seems to be merely "form over substance" for a person to be able to do the former but not the latter. In either case, the result is the same. And therein lies the rub. Boy! This ethics thing sometimes seems like wrestling with an amoeba. Just when you grab it on one side to corral it and bring it down, it pooches out on the other side and slips away. Thanks for the great post and for the many insights you posit. Always though-provoking. Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.
This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto. Eschew obfuscation. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Usually in one of these sessions, you have a bunch of magicians who already have a smattering of knowledge of the system. At least that's been my experience. And with something as complex as the Aaronson stack, you basically will need to purchase the material at some point down the road. On a side note, I use Nikola. But that's just me. Sometimes I use the breakthrough, because that's the one that they used on the Demon deck.
But it's a lot like nailing jelly to a tree. I think basically we know when we are doing something that is wrong and we feel bad about it.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Let's talk About Ethics (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.09 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |