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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts 
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Quote:
On 2005-09-12 00:03, DenDowhy wrote: It's more about what you do. Quote:
On 2005-09-11 21:59, Michael Kamen wrote: Reminds me of that quote about how in theory democracy is the worst of all political systems until one looks at all the rest that are in practice. Quote:
On 2005-09-11 22:35, Michael Kamen wrote: No idea about how to enlighten others. A few questions might be useful though. Taking a cue from Mssr. Robert-Houdin... From your audience's perspective, are you doing tricks or using magic? A clever muggle doing sleight of hand or a magician offering some entertainment with small objects? Does the dramatic moment elicit a "how did you do that?" or a "wow you really did do that?" ? To the best of my current understanding, the difference between feeling the presense of magic and feeling tricked has to do with some theatrical ideas about where the drama happens and how the audience is involved in the drama. In this case the use of language can either encourage discussion or discourage problem solving. I suggest we go with positive language and problem solving. To permit some point by point discussion I've parsed what jimtron wrote above and replied to some of the points he made. My words are the ones in []s. 1)No, I don't think most dealers would want to limit their sales. [To who, magicians or muggles? I would like to see a copy of Our Magic in every library in magicdom. No objection to vendors pitching that book from me. ] 2) And what about books and DVDs? Do libraries don't get magic books? [Magician's libraries or public/muggle libraries? Also which books?] 3) Dover only distributes their magic books to retailers that limit sales to approved buyers? [Not sure Dover limits distribution. I recall they even do mail order for single books if you want.] There's no practical way to license or limit sales of effects, books or DVDs that I know of. [Okay, fine, now suggest something] If someone has a workable idea of how to do this, please explain. [some of us are exploring, please ask better questions] If you have a secret, and you don't want it to be available to the general public, then don't publish it or put it on the market. [nobody here is part of the general public which are muggles. your frame of reference is way off on this one. As to publishing... the idea is to get something out on the market and open for use in magicdom. As to the "you" in that phrase, consider carefully who is writing this and why such a statement is irksome] If you release a DVD or book or effect, generally speaking anyone anywhere can purchase it. [yes, that is one of the problems we face and it was mentioned earlier.] And [anyone who makes such a purchase may] legally (not ethically, of course) share the secret with anyone (as long as they don't violate the copyright). [That is again a problem in magicdom, a sort of open door that allows secrets to flow outside into muggledom]
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts
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If I read the complete series of posts in this thread correctly, there are numerous examples of opinion that Thrifty's behavior is basically benign. There are few, I think one only, example of anyone considering Thrifty's behavior as basically unethical. Perhaps if premature discussion of solutions to that largely personal problem had not hijacked the intent of the thread, more like opinions would have come forward already.
Solutions, in this context, are offered to help solve someone's personal problem. A problem for the magic community, typified by Thrifty's actions, has not been established.
Michael Kamen
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Michael, I'm okay with Thrify's behavior as ethical IN Muggledom as things stand and also in (a hypothetical) Magicdom given the proviso that he is not DOING any of the stuff he studies while not in possession of the primary source work(s) of the material from which his work derives.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-09-12 08:29, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Jonathan: I was responding to the idea that was mentioned in this thread of licensing secrets or otherwise limiting/regulating salse of books/DVDs/effects. 1) My point was that I don't think dealers who sell magic books are going to want to sell to a restricted audience (ie, magic club members, pros only, etc.) 2) This was a broad question I asked about libraries. If magic books are "licensed" or only legally available to certain people, how does this affect libraries? I don't know the answer to this, I'm asking those who think that we should limit access to magic books. I think libraries should carry any book they want (with maybe a few exceptions). 3) Again, as with libraries, I'm asking what should publishers like Dover do, IF magic secrets were to be legally protected (which of course they're not at this point). Quote:
There's no practical way to license or limit sales of effects, books or DVDs that I know of. I have absolutely no idea how to practically license secrets, and I have said I don't think it's a good idea. My suggestion would be for those that want secrets regulated or licensed to explain how that would work. |
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Dave Le Fevre Inner circle UK 1666 Posts
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I think that there's an important distinction 'twixt Thrifty performing those effects professionally (for financial gain) and performing those effects as a hobbyist.
The first is wrong - he shouldn't be doing it. But as to the the second, should we be arbitrating the ethics of someone who performs magic as a hobby? He practises the effect in the privacy of his own room - that presumably is ok. He performs it for an acquaintance, in the privacy of his own home - are we saying that that isn't ok? Dave
The Ozzy Osbourne of the 34x27
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts
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Quote:
But as to the the second, should we be arbitrating the ethics of someone who performs magic as a hobby? No, not in my opinion. I also don't think we should be making judgements regarding who should have the right to (legally) purchase magic books, DVDs, and effects. |
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts
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Hello friends,
Here is a very real and practical question for me. In a few years, I intend to "go on the road." Actually living in a motorcoach and releiving myself of over 5000 books. A portion of these books are related to magic. What do you suggest that I do with these books? Thanks. Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts
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Give them to me!
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-10-04 11:45, Parson Gary Smith wrote: Care to donate them to a lending library at a magic organization? Give them to a student?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts
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Jonathon,
Would I not be adding to the ethical problem by allowing folks to read the material who haven't paid for the secrets? Would a bonfire be better? 
Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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Bill Ligon Inner circle A sure sign of a misspent youth: 6437 Posts
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Suppose, then, that you give them away to a fellow magician. Is he then not entitled to them because he hasn't paid for them? How does this differ from giving them to a magic organization? If I find a magic book, say, in a thrift store and I buy it for twenty-five cents. Am I morally bound to ignore the contents because I did not pay full price and none of what I paid goes to the author?
Author of THE HOLY ART: Bizarre Magick From Naljorpa's Cave. NOW IN HARDCOVER! VIEW: <BR>www.lulu.com/content/1399405 ORDER: http://stores.lulu.com/naljorpa
<BR>A TASSEL ON THE LUNATIC FRINGE |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts
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Perhaps a better solution would be to store the books until you can decide what to do with them. Another solution might be to donate them to an organization like the Magic Castle, which maintains a Member's Only Library, where paid members, who have proven that they are serious about the Art are the only ones with access to the books.
This is called a legacy to the Art and not unheard of in other fields. And, because the Academy is a 501(c)3 corporation, or was the last time I checked, your donation could be a tax write off. Check with them and your tax pro about that, though! Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-10-06 14:45, Parson Gary Smith wrote: If the books are in a library, they can be sought out by students. For now, it seems a decent act of knowledge seeking to search out and find books in the public library. Such also puts our knowledge up there with the rest of human knowledge like architecture and metallurgy etc. For now it seems a win/win for SOME OF our literature to be OCCASIONALLY found in public libraries. Such permits the student to seek and find some things, and be prepared to offer other forms of tuition later should they wish to study the craft.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Ethics Problem #2 (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Sep 12, 2005 09:56 am 
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