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Flying Magus Loyal user 286 Posts |
I have been developing a 2 cup routine recently, and have set myself the requirements of an act that uses as little pockets space as possible and is performed standing up. I want this to be a routine I can actually use in real life.
All of this has lead me to wondering about different ways to steal the final loads priopr to loading them. I have been playing around with a ball dropper that I made. By using a dropper the loads are not in my pockets, and use otherwise unutilised space under my jacket. Although the works fairly well, I not completely satisfied with how the steal looks from it. Also simply stealing from my pocket works ok if I have a reason to go to the pocket, but otherwise I'm not so sure. How to you guys go about stealing the loads? Any nice methods out there? Magically yours, Michel Fouche
Magically yours,
Michel Fouché Believe in the Impossible |
Kent Wong Inner circle Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 2458 Posts |
This is a matter of personal preference, but I tend to use the ball holders. It doesn't take much of a body turn to put yourself in position for the steal and you don't have to go to your pockets. I like that.
Kent
"Believing is Seeing"
<BR>______________________ <BR> <BR>www.kentwongmagic.com |
rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
I never go to my pockets without a reason. I steal the final loads on the off beat. I put a ball in my pocket and show it jumped back to the cup. I lift the cup before my hand is out of the pocket (takes timing) and I steal the final load while the audience is looking at the ball that jumped back.
Each steal is that way. I'm building myself a table though so I can have a sarvante and don't have to steal from the pocket. I imagine my routine will change. |
RevJohn Inner circle Oregon City Oregon, Oregon 2473 Posts |
Reed McClintock has some great thinking about the final load, and going to the pockets. He also does some nice moves that I haven't seen anywhere before.
Also, in Ron Bauer's manuscript on the Cups and Balls, via RNT2, he has some thoughts on the Final load that you might be interested in. John |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Contrived body turns and such really are a dead giveaway. They fool US but not usually the people.
We go to our pockets periodically. It happens from time to time. So to add that movement on the off beat does not draw attention in the least. We never reach behind our backs or under our coats during the natural course of any routine so to do that will draw the eye as new movement and something worth noting. The pocket will not be new so it will not be worth noting.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Paul Jester Special user UK 759 Posts |
You should check out Tommy Wonders routine, he made an amazing routine that was designed to solve the problems you talk about.
Paul |
cataquet Veteran user England 363 Posts |
As you're looking for a real world routine, are you worried about the reset? If not, consider a servante. Holders are great, but the reset on them sucks, and you're better off with pockets. Also, are you working sitting or standing? The Jennings One Cup routine (written up by Jim Swain) is great. So, if you're talking real world, a one cup routine takes up a lot less room than two cups, and you lose nothing if you routine it right.
As for the stealing procedure, re-read Tex Austin's comments. He's spot on, or look at Reed McClintock's routine for stealing the loads on the off beat... But really, if you're asking this question, you probably haven't read (and understood) the Vernon routine. It forms the basis for most routines, so it's worth studying. Finally, consider Sponge Balls for final loads. They don't take up much room and look impressive when produced. Carl Andrews had a routine that might appeal if sponge balls works for you.
Harold Cataquet
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tdowell2007 Loyal user Springfield, IL 267 Posts |
Hey all,
Anyone ever tried these holders? Looks like an interesting idea. Just a thought... Tony http://joemogar.tripod.com/id14.html |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Have a good look at the billiards routine in The Art of Magic by T. Nelson Downs.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
There are other options which have been discussed on the Café in other threads. For example, consider a routine where the final loads are inside of the cups from the very beginning and throughout the entire routine yet not revealed until the end--Scotty York's X-Rated Cups and Balls routine comes to mind. Another option is to use a pouch if it fits your character and the venue.
Larry |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I use two holders from Lynetta Welch. They are underneath my vest, which places them at exactly the right position to do the necessary steal. The Mogar holders should work just as well.
When working as Merlin, I do the steals from my pouch.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Flying Magus Loyal user 286 Posts |
Ok, to cover a number of things, firstly if the ball holder is working properly and positioned properly, I don't believe that you really need to turn your body at all. You simply let your arm drop to your side and the ball gets delivered into it with as little movement as possible. Anything of interest on the table will provide ample cover for such a small movement. The problem I am having comes from the fact that the balls I am using are not smooth. They are Turks Head knots. They match the small balls I use. I have played around with two different sort of droppers. The first resemble Mogar ball holders. These caught up on the knot work of the balls. The second type is simply a long cloth tube with a spring steel opening on the bottom - similar to glasses cases. This worked better, but I really want one that will deliver all three balls one at a time. What makes this difficult is that two balls are the same size and the third is larger.
As far as going to my pockets is concerned, that could work for all but the final ball which gets loaded after the first large ball is produced. This is fairly quick so I would like a nice easy steal. On the 'real world conditions' thing, how I intend to use the routine is as a special piece to be performed when I am working on my close-up table. This doesn't happen every time I perform, but when I get to use the table sometimes I end up with a larger group and after showing them the usual set want to finish with something special. As such, I intend to already have all my usual stuff in my pockets, so to have the balls in there the whole night as well would just not work. With ball droppers I want to be able to have the balls ready when I need them, but be able to just forget about them the rest of the time. As far as performance conditions, I perform it standing up semi-surrounded (is that possible?) and on a thin 'picture frame' table ala Michael Ammar. I am trying to avoid too much contamination from the Vernon routine so as to work out the rhythmn of the two cups. And finally, on the Tommy Wonder routine, I love it, but find it needs more space than I usually get to work with. I hope all this makes sense. I might put up some pics of the table and balls I use tomorrow (which will be tonight for most of you). Magically yours, Michel Fouche
Magically yours,
Michel Fouché Believe in the Impossible |
Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
I wonder what kind of ballholder Dai Vernon, Michael Skinner and Frank Garcia have used ?
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
Michel --- Here's a link to a thread about a "box servante" that I worked up and found to be very useful. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=115 If you perform standing up and don't like to load from pockets or droppers, this is an oldie but a goodie.
While you can't use this if you have people behind you, it works quite well if you're performing at a table and people are standing in front of you. With some care, you could probably perform to a crowd that was in a full semicircle in front of the table. I suspect that is your normal situation or pretty close to it. When I use this, if I see that people are getting too far off to the sides, I just ask them to move in a little "so they can have a better view." Works every time! The only disadvantage of a box servante is that it raises the level of the performing surface slightly. This ordinarily isn't a problem if you're performing for adults who are also standing, but it might give smaller children or seated adults a better peak under the cups as they go up and down. In that situation, your loads and steals probably need to be shielded extra carefully. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
Flying Magus Loyal user 286 Posts |
Just to update you all on my quest. I began by playing around with the traditional style ball clips. I found they didn't work so well with my knotted balls (which is also a painfull medical condition), and so I went on to working with the dropper I described in my earlier post.
However I eventually went back to the traditional style after discovering that the only reason they were not working well was because of the small cross-sectional diameter of the wire. I solved this problem by simply adding small pieces of drinking straw around the wire making up the loops. These have the added bonus of acting like roller bearings as the ball is stolen from the dropper. As a result of all this, was able to put my cups and balls in front of a paying audience yesterday, and it went over very well. Now come the years of polishing. Magically yours, Michel Fouche
Magically yours,
Michel Fouché Believe in the Impossible |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Lynetta's holders have a rubberized or vinyl coating on the wires which does the same thing the drinking straw segments do. That's a good idea, though.
Vernon worked out of his back pockets. Ammar describes his modification in the Ammar book.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Flying Magus Loyal user 286 Posts |
Bill,
From memory Lynetta's holders use heat-shrinky tubing. I have some of the stuff and thought of using it, however I felt the diameter would still have been too small. I could be wrong, and it has been a couple of years since I've seen her's in person, but what I've got now works. So I'm happy.
Magically yours,
Michel Fouché Believe in the Impossible |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I'm not sure what kind of tubing she uses, but the diameter of the wire with the cover is about 1/16 inch. A lot of the holders I have seen have wire that is about 1/3 that size. Lynetta's are made to work with things like oranges, eggs, silicone balls, golf balls, billiard balls and other things with fairly hard surfaces. They may not work on yours.
However, you can layer heat shrink, if that's what you want to work with. Sounds like you have solved your problem, though.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts |
I use the vernon approach from the back pockets. In my standard routine, which is essentially Vernon's, I produce 4 loads; which I think is really the way to go. 4 from 3 cups or 3 from 2 cups. I have 2 loads in each back pocket. 2 loads are made as I put one ball away. 1 is made as I talk about the shell game, only 1 ball and 3 cups. I'm a big guy and with a slight turn, I can easily block their view as my hand steals the ball. The last steal is the easiest as I reveal the first load that is more than enough misdirection. I love Ammar's thinking, loading the cups very early in the routine and using time misdirection. Tommy Wonder and David Williamson also have great thoughts on final loads.
Good luck! |
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