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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I KNEW you would know Glenn!!
your right about the out of respect thing. I couldn't agree more. he had the really big problem of dealing with someone who didn't even feel embarassed by the fact that it happened. He went right on doing it. One person even called agents with the pitch "I can do Don Alan's act cheaper!" This is the dangerous road we go down when trnig to copy others. I hope the majority of us don't walk too many steps down.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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scorch Inner circle 1480 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-29 13:08, Frank Starsini wrote: In neither case would copyright law prevent you from performing verbatim the routine that is on the DVD. Copyright law does not allow for "trade show rights" (which is a made-up term, probably just to scare people away from doing it, sort of like a letter from a lawyer that has no legal basis whatsoever - nothing more than an intimidation tool) or even TV performances. Because the material itself is uncopyrightable. The only thing that is copyrightable is the actual DVD, meaning you couldn't copy the DVD and sell it without permission of the publisher who owns the copyright for the DVD. But the actual material on the DVD is absolutely fair game. I suppose if you are asking the question on the basics of ethics, I suppose you could ask really nicely for any kind of exclusivity you want if you're publishing a routine, and hope that people are really nice and reserve it for you. It would be kind of naive, but you could always ask. But then I suppose that ethically, you would also be required to warn everybody who might buy the DVD that they would be asked not to perform the work in certain situations. But that would mean that you want to make money off of the material, but not really sell it. That would be kind of naive and just plain stupid. By the way, do you know the longest word in the English language that does not repeat any letters? Interestingly, and coincidentally, the word is "uncopyrightable." Posted: Dec 29, 2005 4:37pm Quote: On 2005-12-29 11:40, Eric Falconer wrote: If you don't want your material copied and performed, then legally protect it. Or just don't publish it. You cannot legally protect magical sleights, effects, or presentational ideas and patter. You can only protect their actual published form - the actual book, DVD, lecture notes, or set of illusion plans. Once you publish it and people legally obtain what you publish, they can perform anything in any manner they wish. And if you perform something publicly, people are free to figure out how you did it (i.e., rip off your ideas) and perform them and even try to take credit for what you invented. The only way to guarantee that your secrets with remain protected is for you never to tell anybody and never to perform them. But what would be the point in coming up with the method in the first place? I think it's a far better idea to be generous with your magical creations and get them published in a manner that ensures your name gets attached to it and that ensures (to the greatest extent available by the weak protection of magic effects provided by the law) that you profit as much as possible from your inventions to the extent of their value in the marketplace. Or, you could just sit on it, and then whine when somebody else gets credit for it. Posted: Dec 29, 2005 4:53pm Quote: On 2005-12-28 22:58, magicbob116 wrote: To continue the music analogy... even though Yo Yo Ma plays Ravel's notes verbatim, it is the interpretation that a soloist or orchestra conductor brings to the piece to make it their own. If an aspiring cellist simply tries to imitate Yo Yo Ma, they will never develop their OWN voice and interpretation. Wrong. It is precisely by imitating the styles of masters such as Yo Yo Ma and others that allows for an aspiring cellist to discover their own style. Nobody is saying that imitation is the final goal - it is an important means to an end. It goes without saying that a *master* cellist will have abandoned imitation as a pedogigical tool, but *aspiring* cellists can only do themselves inestimable good by trying to imitate Yo Yo Ma, and whoever else exerts an influence on them. After all, if you could play exactly like Yo Yo Ma you would still be among the world's greatest living musicians, even absent of any sense of your own originality! Similarly, if I could do everything Ricky Jay does, even exactly like he does, I'd be one of the greatest card magicians alive. And I'd have far more technique with which to apply my own sensibilities to than the person who shies away from establishing their technique in this manner from the beginning for fear of not being seen as "original." Originality is a concern for masters, not students. It should come as a natural consequence of your technical mastery and your own personality, not from shying away from being influenced by other, greater magicians. In all of the arts, we find originality ultimately by realizing a unique amalgam of our most important influences. Again, we should aim to be standing on the shoulders of giants, not reinventing the wheel. Posted: Dec 29, 2005 4:57pm Quote: On 2005-12-29 13:45, bishthemagish wrote: I am sorry but I do not think that there is any way to protect a performing magicians performing act, show or material. Magicians for many years when they see a magician on the TV - like something. They copy it. That is what happens. Yes, it is unfortunate that intellectual property laws are so weak and inadequate with respect to creations in the field of magic. People really ought to be able to patent or copyright ideas, so that they could profit more from their publication and control the manner of their dissemination. If the legal protection were stronger, I have a feeling that more people would be willing to tip their work for the benefit of all other magicians. Though of course, there would be an inevitable trade-off in terms of the easy availability of information that we enjoy, and the lack of nasty court battles about provenance. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
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On 2005-12-29 16:37, scorch wrote: That is the problem. People do not have the right to copy and rip off just because they saw something they liked in a public performance or in a media if the ideas are NOT PUBLISHED BY THE PERFORMER THAT CAME UP WITH THE IDEAS. I feel that people are not FREE to figure it out and rip off the ideas and take credit and the work of others. This is a lack of respect to others in magic that took the time and sometimes years to work out their acts. And often this is what they do to make a living and put food on the table. People do not have the right to copy and rip off just because they saw something they liked in a public performance or in a media. But there is no way to stop it and they do it at their own risk of closing doors and having magicians choose sides. I do not think that it is good for magic when most often all they have to do is ASK and RESPECT the performers that came up with the ideas in the first place. The rip off is a lack of respect toward the performers and toward magic! As in the case of Don Alan, Jack Gwynne, Billy Bishop and others I have known that can be quite a list. It should be hands of until it is published. But often the magician HAS to publish in order to get credit for his own work just because some low life's in magic ripped them off and tried to profit on ideas that they do not own and are not entitled to use! Some people that say this say imitation is the sincerest for of flattery - as they rip off to increase their own bank account. As Don Alan lived through this and was very bitter about some magicians that did not give him that much respect for his work! It should be hands off until it is published - in copyright there is fair usage in magic there should be FAIR PLAY!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-29 13:20, Dannydoyle wrote: No only would you be inconsistent with who you are, but you'd make the audience uncomfortable by your apparent display of Multiple Personality Disorder. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-29 17:32, Larry Davidson wrote: Larry, folks, that is a wonderful premise for an act. Imagine a performer saying: "This purse and the coins within were given to me by David Roth. Now, with your permission I will open the purse and let the coins bring us a few minutes with David Roth." The performer takes a deep breath, relaxes, reaches out to pick up the purse, dumps out the coins and begins... "Four silver half dollars, fifty cent pieces, solid silver and very real. Ah the sound of money..."
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Johnathan... of course it is a wrong premise for an act!
that was the point!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Samuel Special user Norway 831 Posts |
Danny: Jonathan didn't write 'wrong premise', he wrote 'wonderful premise'
Samuel
Magic is everywhere |
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
I actually think that doing one effect "in character" as a tribute piece could be very effective, whereas a magician doing an entire act of different characters would likely be disjointing.
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Samuel Special user Norway 831 Posts |
I agree.
Many magicians have, during their shows, impersonated others with a short act - and it was both funny and magical Look at Daryl in Foolers Doolers
Samuel
Magic is everywhere |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-29 16:57, scorch wrote: I don't think that it has anything to do with the law it has to do with the attitude of magicians in general and what they feel that they are entitled to do. For example, If a person finds a quarter on the ground are they entitled to pick it up and keep it? If a person finds a wallet on the ground with ten dollars and it has the address in the wallet are they entitled to keep it? Or should they do the harder thing - contact the owner and return it? What if it was a thousand dollars in the wallet? How about a lottery card that ends up to be ten million dollars? Keep it? Return it? This situation reminds me of the movie Called It's a wonderful life. I remember the part in the movie where Uncle Billy accidentally hands Mr. Potter the eight grand while showing Mr. Potter the newspaper of his war hero nephew. Mr. Potter finds the eight grand an not only knows the bank examiner is looking over the Bailey Building and loan records. And he enjoys watching the Baileys try to find the lost money - yet Mr. Potter keeps it. And when the hero George comes to him for help Potter mocks him and calls the sheriff. Finding something and then keeping it is not against the law as far as I know. But is it the right thing to do? I sort of look at people that would watch a TV program and then take an idea that is not published and then using it without permission sort of like finding something that isn’t yours that has value - because magic routines that magicians can perform in shows are worth money. And sort of like cheating in a card game. Because I feel it could be looked upon as a way of cheating to get ahead. Some people say that cheating is wrong. And others like in sports say it is only cheating if you get caught! Perhaps some in magic being like sports feel that - watching a person do a public show and then if they take an idea from them that isn't theirs and one that they are not entitled to - and not published - is only wrong if they get caught. But they do not see the harm and how rude and not respectful it is to a brother magi!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Maybe a great premise for magic conventions,BUT if you did that where I work every night you would spend more time explaining who people were than doing tricks.
these people are famous to US and US alone! Not to degrade them or their contribution, far from it, but realistically if you say David Roth to most laymen, they give you a blank stare in responce
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Samuel Special user Norway 831 Posts |
Danny: I agree withthe fact that laymen would not appreciate the act like magicians would. Even though, I think they would find the act funny if you did your best to impersonate the other magician
It's the acting that would matter, not the magician your trying to impersonate
Samuel
Magic is everywhere |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Try doing an impression of Robert Deniro from Taxi Driver who has never seen the movie.
they may appreciate the acting ability, maybe, but will lose all impact of if it is good or bad
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Somehow I imagine acting the part of an obsessed taxi driver preparing himself to raid a mob house and bordello to "rescue" a young woman is a stretch for most magic shows.
My suggestion of using the props to trigger channeling stands.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-28 11:36, Roger Kelly wrote: Wow, To be honest I think Lovell is one of the greatest comedy performaces the biz has ever seen. Different sense of humour I guess
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
If I read Samuel's original post accurately, I get the following impressions:
1) he is not planning to do Richard's act verbatim. 2) he is wondering about the ethics and morality of doing it if you have purchased the DVDs. Answers: 1) good 2) Legal and probably moral. I'm not saying that too much emphasis is being placed on originality in this forum. It's not. But I think it is being MIS placed. If you are just learning how to do magic, or if you are just learning how to do a show, you need a guide. You need to get your chops in shape. You need to learn how to handle an audience. But you also need to understand how and why certain pieces of audience management work for the guy on the DVD and whether they will work for you. All of this comes from experience. As you perform the material you see on these sources, and you work for live audiences, you will figure out what works for you and how to make this material yours. You don't start learning music by inventing your own scales and chords. You learn by practising these very things and then learning how to use them. Lacking a good teacher and/or coach, imitating a DVD that you have paid for is a good solution. Just learn to make the material your own. I have a friend who does a lot of Slydini material. When she performs this material, she adjusts her chair, shifts position and "channels" Slydini. It looks very strange. The only thing she doesn't do is say, "Itsa so beautiful, sometimes, I'm-a fool-a myself."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-12-28 13:24, blindbo wrote: I think you would definitely want to make changes as you worked with the material...but personally, if I pay good money for a DVd that is going to teach me someones routines, then I want to get every last cent of value out of that DVD!
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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