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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
Dear Café Members,
While discussing the use of video effects and camera edits in another thread I mentioned that we're bound to see others doing their own special effects and posting videos online. It later dawned on me that the use of Camera effects can actually be dangerous for your career. Think of it this way.... a great dove worker or any good magician gets his way to the top with a lot of work, some luck and even more rehearsal, trial and error. He'll have a good chance of staying on top because admirers who want to be as good as him will mostly give up when they realize just how difficult the art is to master. Every field has its icons. However..... the recent fad of camera tricks is something that can be easily done these days by any 13 year old with todays computer skills. Can Blaine and Angel stay on top or hold the publics interest when all their admiring clones can do the same effects they can? My experience has been that if someone it thriving doing something that others can duplicate.....its going to be duplicated! Any other thoughts out there on this? Please note that no where in this post do I give an opinion on weither I think Camera effects should or should not be considered legit magic. That topic is being discussed in only about 100 different threads here. Please keep any posts on this " Easily Cloned" topic. Best, Tim |
ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
My opinion... I don't think that television magic will ever replace live magic. Magic is entertaining on television, but nothing beats a GOOD, live performance. Even with big illusion shows where there isn't a lot of interaction with the audience, just the fact that you are watching it live holds the same appeal that a live Broadway show does after you've seen the video or listened to the CD fifty times.
A good, live magician must have all the acting skills of a seasoned stage performer, plus the additional talents required to properly present the magic and to make it believable. For that reason, magic might just be the most difficult type of stage performance to present. An actor has to be able to remember his lines, know where to go, and how to interact with the other characters to make the story believable. A singer needs similar skills, but the speaking is often replaced by singing. In both cases, a major part of the performance is "self-contained", meaning that someone else takes care of the "inanimate objects and/or animals". A magician needs all the skills of an actor/singer, but also needs to be a mechanic, animal handler, and acrobat, all with perfect timing. For these reasons, I will probably continue to watch televison and video performances of all the magicians I can, but I will go out of my way (and spend more money) to see a truly great live performance. Amos McCormick
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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magicurt Loyal user alabama 222 Posts |
I agree, Tim. I got my son a magic kit for Christmas last years. We are working on his 3rd trick now. The kit has 30 tricks. We work on understanding the trick and its effect, then we work on the moves. After he has the moves done then we practice the trick, begining to end until he has all the mechanics down cold. Then we sit down and work out his routine and patter. We put it all together and practice until he can do it all. Then we reherse it before stuffed animals and then family. Not until we have gone through all the steps does he get to perform it.
He wonders at times why he has to do all that. Why he can't just read the instructions and "do the trick". I explained that it is not easy to do anything right. If anyone can do it then it is not magic. People only keep interested in something that they can not do, something that is special. I believe soon there will be clones and the next step is the realization that anyone could do it. At that point it will fade away because it will loose its "magic". If it were not easily cloned it may continue to be magic for years to come. Curt |
ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
This is the same thing I have tried to do with my daughter. We found a great book called "The Secrets of Alkazar" at the local library. It is a fun read, and it teaches some pretty good stuff in the context of developing presentation skills. Too many magic books for children teach the tricks, but do not address presentation very well.
Whenever she wants to work on something, we will walk through it slowly, and I will try to help her develop her own framework and story line for a presentation. She is creative and really enjoys this activity, and it makes her presentation her own. Amos McCormick
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
I agree that television magic will never replace live magic. Live magic will always have its stars and they will all have a story of working in front of stuffed animals and the work involved to rise to the top. There are no shortcuts to success in live performance magic. People have tried to buy there way to the top but it doesn't seem to work very well does it?
My question is ...whats to stop anyone else..any actor..any other performer from doing the same effects or more elaborate ones that you see Angel doing and out Angeling Angel???? Got a computer????? be a magician. Best, Tim |
magicurt Loyal user alabama 222 Posts |
I think you couldn't pull it off if you were already famous and not a magician. The world needs a base for the magic. Albeit a small base but a base none the less. I do see the potential for some unknow to do it. But would some unknown with that kinda money aspire to be a famous magician? Probably not. If someone decided to make the next big star why wouldn't they use someone with a magic background?
I think it is possible but very unlikely overall. But I see anyone who gets the right pay check waved in front of them going for the next on camera magician. It would be easier than really working. curt |
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
Whoops... I didn't mean a famous actor. I meant a newcomer looking for work. This was common for some amusement park shows. They would hire a good looking actor...give him some props and say.... Your the magician! ( it showed )
Best, Tim |
Moyle with Parkinsons Loyal user Australia 281 Posts |
The way I see it I don't think these easily clonable trick are that bad AS LONG AS they are not mass produced which they most clearly are by blaine etc. and AS LONG AS they are sold to people who are trying to decide whether studying magic would be something they would enjoy. Under these conditions I don't think there is anything wrong with these tricks the problems occur under two other conditions 1. A newcomer buys them puts in no practice what-so-ever calls himself a magician and proceeds to ruin the fun for everyone by poorly presenting the trick. 2. A lay person buys it just so that they can know the secret, this is more common than you think a heap of my lay-friends have actually gone out and bought a few of my gimmicks not because they were interested in learning how to use them just because they wanted to know the secret, how lame is that! This is were mass produced tricks run into problems especially if it imitates tricks that are more difficult and require more polished technique, because then a lay person might see a magician do that similar trick and the layperson may assume that they know how its done, the magic its gone.
Moyle P.S. I didn't bash Blaine I used an example. You can't deny his tricks are mass produced.
"Signatures cause far too much trouble!" an original quote by Moyle With Parkinsons.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I have never heard of an amusement park that did it quite that way. Usually, they hired a good-looking dancer, gave him a script and the choreography, and had him push boxes around. They told him where to push them. There was little room for improvisation. There really didn't need to be any.
They didn't give him the props and say "You're a magician!"
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-14 01:49, Bill Palmer wrote: Hi Bill, Ok..so I skipped the details! I imagine that you are closer to the mark. The very first magic show I ever saw was and amusement park show. ( Boblo Island ..here in Canada many years ago) It most likely was a dancer but not a magician. It was obvious to one who had never seen a show before. Huge props, great lighting and poor performance. I later found out it was not a pro magician but a person trained for the franchised show. ( must be cheaper ) Best, Tim |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
First off yea it is cheaper to do it that way.
But lets compare apples with apples. The singers and dancers there are not really a "professional level" either. Most are kids looking for summer work. They are either taffy pullers, or extras. To me that is magic for children anyhow. Your working with Foghorn Leghorn so how seriously is the park gonna take the magic content? Here is the problem in my eyes. The "daddy bought me a show" group. They are alledged PROFESSIONALS who have no businiess doing what they are doing. They actually expose magic by being very very very bad. Can afford great web pages and all the trimmings of a fantastic show. Great boxes to push arround. And what are they? Little more than the amusment park shows. At least with TV you have to get it past some executives and since tastes change so much, it will fade eventually. Clones have existed forever, and will. They kind of work themselvs out of the market.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
Realistically, television must be made interesting enough to keep viewers from changing stations.
In the past, TV magic was relatively straight forward. When we did camera rehearsals we would tell the director when to cut to close ups, medium shots, change camera angles or lock down the shot. Directors and cameramen with magic experience can be quit understanding. If you watch The Worlds Greatest Magic series look for the changes during crucial moments, which otherwise would be glaringly obvious under the unblinking eye of the camera. Take note of this when making promotional demo's or instructional material (the show part, not the tell). Take advantage of multi-camera setups, this gives you movement when the scene is motionless, dull, repetitious, or you are walking back to a table. For demo's cut in real time audience reactions, when shooting live. Remember not to use stage expressions on the close up, you'll look weird. Test your demo's randomly before sending it out. If you don't get reactions, that's not good. If you hear comments like; "You remind me of so and so." You are a clone. Magic is a live event, Kregg
POOF!
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Going strictly by the original post, we need to keep one tiny little detail in mind...
There will be TV clones of David and Chris anytime a TV producer or production company or network feels they can sell the concept to advertisers -- and anytime the advertisers feel people will watch their commercials. Need proof? How many clones of Survivor are there -- a bunch of people competing to be the last one left? Now we even have cooking competitions, dance competitions, comedy competitions, and so on ad nauseam. But they run because advertisers feel that people will watch the show and therefore the commercials. How many reality shows do we see on public television, where there are no ads? On the other hand, if next year somebody comes up with a new concept that will attract millions to the tube, and to those commercials, then all the competition shows will fade out and there will be clones of the new one. So there's a hint for you. Be the one to come up with a new concept for TV magic and convince some advertisers that people will watch you. As far as the theme park magic shows... who's to say the kid who was hired to push boxes around wasn't a magician -- or didn't become one? From hanging out in the Café for a couple of years, I get the impression that there are lots of "magicians" out there who perform with less preparation, less scripting, less choreography, less rehearsal, less emphasis on staging, costumes, set, lighting, music, and so forth, than the kid at the theme park. As far as the audience was concerned, he was doing magic, so he was a magician. And BTW, no smart theme-park operator will hire just anybody who walks in and put him or her on stage. Behind a counter, yes, obviously, but not on stage. Those kids have to go through an audition process similar to that used in any other show. A theme-park show looks good on a resume when you're starting out, so these kids tend to take these gigs very seriously.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The interesting thing about this, George, is that many of "our" favorite TV shows are clones. Survivor is a clone of a BBC show. We also cloned Trading Spaces and The Office.
Regarding the amusement park shows, sometimes they hire "real" magicians, sometimes they hire dancers. The ones who hire dancers hire them because they want someone who will perform the act exactly as written. They can also get dancers for a lot less than they get magicians. If you are a member of SAM, you regularly read material that is edited by a very successful amusement park magician who went on to much larger things -- John Moehring. A major percentage of these shows are scripted by the Mark Wilson group. Another large chunk of them are scripted by Paul Osborne. And once in a while, one of these dancers is inspired to become a "real" magician. The funny thing is that at the end of the season, they are pretty darn good at what they do.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
CJRichard Special user Massachusetts 542 Posts |
Camera tricks are easily copied by anyone. Performing self working tricks take only slighly less work. A lot of big illusions require little skill from the magician. Heck, the assistants getting "zig-zagged' or sawed or transformed into tigers often need more skill that the magicians for those particular effects.
But the magic that requires more skill is less easily copied and often can seem more magical. I said somewhere in another thread that technology is many many things seem less magic, because kids are walking around with phones that have more computing power than NASA had when we landed men on the moon. But, even the most technological savy computer whiz kid and be stumped by some ordinary solid balls hopping around under completely ungimmicked cups. Even watching taped performances of magic involving expert manipulation seems magical because it's pretty easy to tell that camera magic is not involved. Over use of camera edits and off-the-shelf self working props by less skilled magicians only helps make the truly skilled magicians seem even more magical.
"You know some of you are laughin', but there's people here tryin' to learn. . ." -Pop Haydn
"I know of no other art that proclaims itself 'easy to do.'" -Master Payne Ezekiel the Green |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The reason for that Bill is pure practice and repetition.
Then when they realize the benifit of these things, yea they actually do become pretty good.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
I guess nothing breeds clones like success (it used to be said that nothing breeds success like success but now it only breeds clones/copycats). Look at romance books. Once the successful formula was established thousands were published. A good idea for a TV series breeds several watered down versions (maybe one or two are as good or better than the original). It is the same phenomena with movies. There are few risk takers and those who are successful spawn the copycats. I don’t know if it is good or bad. It just is a fact of life.
Before electronic mass media existed copycats were stealing (cloning) successful acts and inventions of others. This was especially true in magic. One successful magician produces a hundred want-to-be’s. It hasn’t stopped. Here it is 30 or more years since Channing Pollock stopped performed his act and you still see it being attempted at almost every magic convention competition. I could go on but you all have examples of this. I was a theme park magician in 1962 and 63 at Six Flags over Texas (one month each summer). The amusement park was brand new then and the first of the franchise of today. The show was scripted, built, framed, and produced by Mark Wilson's company. I was one of several performers that worked the show. We worked in rotation so that we stayed fresh and rested. I worked every third show. It was hot and hard work. We had to follow the script exactly. I was the only magician hired, one was an acting student from UT, another was an electrician who auditioned well (took direction well) and wanted to break into show business (went back to being an electrician after he found out how much work it was). The rest were dancers. As I said, I worked one month each summer. I found I could make more money and have more fun working small carnivals (as a magician with my own show!) and pitching Svengali decks! Today, it is difficult to compete with the special effects; CGI and the like, that one can get at the cinema or on the tube. Viewers are demanding more and more eye candy or maybe it is producers that are demanding it. Still, as pointed out above, there is much to say for the immediacy of a live action performance. While live theatre is hurting and seemingly on the decline, live performances still draw record crowds in venues where live performances are the norm (Las Vegas, etc). But then those performances have to have the flash, splash, and the pizzazz to attract the visually jaded crowds. There is an immediacy the people get when watching a real, live person performing. Sadly, so few people today (in this country at least) get to see a real live person performing anything!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
I think part of the TV aspect is that we all know that the cameras eye is unforgiving, and we see the places in the performances of Angel and Blaine and whomever else, that have glaringly obvious stooges, switches, etc.
Now, I have to give them credit that instead of letting Television beat them, they beat television by their exceptional editing/staging. As I am sure we all know and agree on, the magic in person is such a drastic difference of appearance than when it appears on television, that the editing tries to create the same impact. I got really bent out of shape over that stuff, and when talking to some heavy Criss Angel fans, it wasn't something that they particularly noticed, cared about, or paid any kind of attention to. It was then that I figured I might as well just chalk it up as exactly what it was, which was pure effect for the lay television audience. |
harishjose Special user 932 Posts |
SOme thoughts on the topic and similar topics:
Most professional magicians make their living by performing live magic - at restaurents, parties, corporate meetings etc. I have been to many restaurents, parties, meetings and so forth, NEVER have I seen the host putting a VHS or DVD on a TV and let the guests watch TV magic. TV magic is not going to replace live magic. They are almost two different faces of same art. All this talk about wannabes and TV magic have been always there, just in different numbers. Magic is growing, along with many other things. Blaine has done only good in my opinion, to magic. Same with Criss Angel and many others. They have revived the interest in magic among public. Think of this way, being a magician does no longer mean "40 year old virgin".
To believe is Magic.
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-14 13:30, Harry Murphy wrote: Well stated. Kregg
POOF!
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