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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
I'm helping my son learn how to put forth an argument, one of the books I'm teach out of has a paragraph that fits into our discussion.
"No one can become an expert, through direct experience, on everything there is to know. We cannot taste every wine in the world to determine which is best. We cannot know what the trial of Socrates was really like. We are unlikely to know firsthand what is happening in the state legislature, Sri Lanka, or outer space. Instead, we must rely on others- better situated people, organizations, or reference works- to tell us much of what we need to know about the world. We need what are called arguments from authority." (excerpt from Anthony Weston's, A Rulebook for Arguments)
POOF!
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
A little more fuel for the fire. I have two uncles who are attorneys. One was a criminal lawyer for many years and saw the inside of a court room daily. I asked him for his definition of an "expert". He said it was anyone who helped him win his case. He also said, avoiding the definition, that some folks do know a lot more about some things than others.
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts |
Randy, they're referred to as, "uncles in law." It's good to see that in additon to obfuscating, sometimes lawyers do state the obvious!
In my field, which is engineering, today's expert has to keep up with the times or they're in tomorrow's unemployment line. Of course, advances occur in every field. Erdnase wouldn't be considered a "top" expert at the card table by everyone today, he'd just be considered very good. There are several modern card sleights he didn't know about, including some relatively easy ones, such as the Elmsley (Ghost) Count. The Elmsely count does have at least one gambling application too. I've read that Alex Elmsely once used his count while playing poker. Another player folded after he snuck a peak at Elmsley's hand and saw four aces. Elmsley didn't have four aces! I realize that most people here know all this, my point is that the criteria for being an expert isn't just relative between individuals, but also with the times.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-10 12:49, Bill Hallahan wrote: That is funny Bill. And yes, I realized I should of known better than to ask him after I got that answer. When I asked about the opposing "experts" in the case, he hastily said they must be discredited and if possible, keep them from even showing up. What? I'm out there. |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
You didn't sign anything did yuh?
POOF!
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Ha! no he tends to favor me. However, as an "expert" in his field, he was the one who talked me out of following in his footsteps. Yep, he said I was incapable of leaving my heart in a jar at home each day. He also told me if I did go into law, I should set aside more than half of my revenue. I eagerly asked if it should be for investments and such. He said no, that I would need it for bail as I'd be in contempt of court more often than not.
His "expert" opinion was right. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts |
This months Scientific American just arrived in the mail. The cover story is, "Secrets of the Expert Mind."
Three major subheadings exist in the article.
The article mentions chess, music, and soccer, golf, etc. There is an interesting breakout titled, "Training trumps talent." Here's one quotation: Quote:
Teachers in sports, music, and other fields, tend to believe that talent matters, and that they know it when they see it. In fact, they appear to be confusing ability with precocity. There is usually no way to tell whether a young violinist's extraordinary performance stems from innate ability or Suzuki-style training. I'm skeptical. I would think teachers could factor experience out, after all they see many students. Also, I think if someone puts up with prolonged intensive training, they probably have talent already. But, perhaps it's true and there is hope for me!
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
Bill,
Regarding the school of thought stating: "#3 The preponderance of psychological evidence indicates that experts are made, not born." and your comment: "I'm skeptical. I would think teachers can factor experience out, after all they see many students. Also, I think if someone puts up with prolonged intensive training, they probably have talent already. But, perhaps it's true and there is hope for me!" You might of missed it but I had a topic "Amazing or Pushing up daisies" in which I stated my disappointed and desperate plea for good teachers to not give up on the rare occasion a serious student comes along. I don't know nor care what percentage of the "expert" comes with a newborn as much as I care that, when identified, it be further nurtured, developed and given a course to grow into by the "experienced". No matter how talented or promisig the student, an experienced teacher might make a difference the student could not. I'm convinced of this as it's happened to me. As for your comment, "But, perhaps it's true and there is hope for me!", you have my vote Bill. To date, I have no reason to doubt and do offer it with confidence. |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
An animal trainer/handler told me that he didn't teach his dogs to do tricks. He exploits what the dog does naturally and teaches him to perform on command- using incentives.
POOF!
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts |
I train dogs as my hobby.
Funny my friend had a dog that barked at the mailman. So every time the mailman came arround he put the dog in the basement. What he ended up with was a dog that every time the mailman came over, ran in the basement and barked. Lesson, if your gonna train dogs, the first thing you gotta be is smarter than the dog. You gotta know what it is you are saying to "them".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Neale Bacon Inner circle Burnaby BC Canada 1775 Posts |
I once heard expert defined as "X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure"
Neale Bacon and his Crazy Critters
Burnaby BC Canada's Favourite Family Ventriloquist www.baconandfriends.com |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24314 Posts |
That was the third post in this thread.
Posted: Jul 14, 2006 11:53am --------------------------------------------- Bill Hallahan wrote: Quote:
Here's one quotation: This comment which you quote appears to have been made by a precocious writer with a talent for obfuscation. Precocity is one aspect of talent. There is no doubt that Mozart was both precocious and talented. He was, in fact, gifted. I taught music for several years -- it's the "Family Curse" -- and I had students of all levels of talent, from those whose desire to play almost outweighed a total lack of ability to those whose gifts were immense. Sometimes I really felt sorry for the fellows who couldn't carry a beat in a bucket. But they exist. I was disgusted by the students who would not practice, but who could sightread their way through a lesson with no prior experience on a musical instrument of any kind whatsoever. Eventually, I learned how to handle both kinds of student, but the idea that only training matters, or only desire matters, or only natural ability matters is bunk. It takes all three. There was no way that my friend with MS was going to ever be an expert at Renaissance dance, unless Oral Roberts could lay hands on her and get her out of her wheelchair. Why? She couldn't demonstrate even how to turn her foot. That's basic.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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