There's an interesting stack called the Eight Kings Stack in 13 steps. I've been playing with some of the effects using this stack as outlined in the book. Not knowing much about these things, the memorization is fairly easy and allows for some interesting business.



Anyone have further ideas using this stack?

This is one of the oldest stack systems, along with Si Stebbins. It is good for knowing the next card in the sequence but not good for memorized deck work. Also, it does not stand up to a great deal of scrutiny because it has a cycle of cards.



Bottom line: this is a good stack for some effects requiring you to know the next card (or few cards) but will not help you identify which card lies at a certain point in the deck. So it falls short of the punch of a memorized deck.



Gianni

True, but it isn't bad for a quick little miracle.

Stacked decks and memorized decks are not necessarily the same thing - nor do they need to be. While all memorized decks are stacked, not all stacks are memorized.

Personally, I rarely, if ever, have someone ask me to look the deck over that thoroughly. If they DO ask to examine it, they usually check for one of three things: to see if it’s a stripper, Svengali, or marked on the back. Someone would have to look at the deck for quite some time to discover either the 8 kings or Stebbins stacks.

Personally, I prefer the Stebbins because I can get into it from new deck order in less than a minute. At my paid private shows, I ask the host to provide a couple of brand new, still in the shrinkwrap Bicycle decks. I start by stacking it in Stebbins as I make my opening remarks, and then perform some MIRACLES with it. Later, the stack is destroyed in an effect, and the deck is returned to the host to keep. This can’t be done with a memorized deck.

Having said that, it’s true that there are things you can do with a MD that you can’t do with these stacks. I also use a memorized deck, particularly in my restaurant bookings.

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages, depending on the performing circumstances.

If you want a memorized stack that will last you a lifetime and enable you to perform miracles, check out Simon Aronsons A Stack to Remember. It can be found in his Bound to Please book.

There are two solutions for the memorized deck problem. The first is to use a truly memorized deck, where you have literally committed every card and its corresponding position to memory, and can recall the association instantly. This is the "best" solution, though it is not a simple task to master, and unless you are regularly doing a lot of memorized deck work, it is easy to lose the associations (and if you do so "under fire", you're in trouble, as there's no backup). Probably the best currently available such stack is Aronson's, described in a couple of his books. Tamariz' stack is also a contender... it has been published, but not yet with much description of its uses.

The second solution is an algorithmic one, where a formula of some kind is used to relate card value to position. This approach is popular among those who want to do memorized deck work, but not make it a life's work (particularly mentalists and others who don't do a *lot* of card work, but recognize the miracles that can be performed with a memorized deck). Probably the best two candidates here are the Harding stack and my own "QuickStack". The former exhibits slightly better deck "randomness" (though both will withstand substantial inspection, which should not be an issue anyway); the latter permits faster "calculations" in performance.

... Doug

Osterlind has also a great stacked deck. A spectator can examine the deck and he will find nothing.

It must be said that Chan Canasta performed miracles using the Eight Kings Stack. Paul Daniels tells the (true) story of a guy in his local pub who was familiar with the Eight Kings stack. This guy, if he glimpsed the bottom card of the deck, could reveal the cards that Canasta was about to reveal on the TV. The locals thought he was gifted.

Nice story Quentin, good to see you in the cafe.

Good point too. People tend to be dismissive of the older cyclic stacks like 8 Kings and Stebbins, not realising Stebbins did a complete stand up card act with the stack! (Which does pre-date him). Canasta, Dunninger etc. did really strong stuff, and had far bigger and better reputations than most of the people using newer, more ingenious stacks. They were master showmen, worth studying.

Is your one man show still running Quentin?

Best wishes,
Paul

Hi Paul,
My show runs every Wednesday in Bewley's Cafe Theatre, Dublin at 8.30 until 8th May.
I'm back for the summer from July 10th, which will give me the opportunity to attend the Phoenix Gathering and the PEA's MOTM.

I read on the Genii forum that Darwin Ortiz has a new book out this month with a killer mentalism effect with a stacked deck.

Chan Canasta's routines are analysed and explained by David Britland in the Chan Canasta book available from Martin Breese or your favourite dealer. Fortunately I had the opportunity to see the video of Canasta's BBC TV show and his work with the Eight Kings Stack is phenomenal.

Doug Dyment's book MINDSIGHTS is excellent for the memorized deck and there are several outstading items in it also.Although I don't use cards in my act, but I took the half hour or so to get the deck memorized. Believe me, it is rather easy.

While on the subject of Doug's book, it is excellent. I use "Major Arcanum" from it frequently.
Contact Doug for information, but it is more than worth the price.

Best regards,
Tony Razzano
PS to Doug...Sorry, but I use the Death card at position C. (hehehe)Good for the bizzarist.

One stack that I've had great luck with is Doc Hillford's "Jack's Aching Ass" stack from his "Son of Killer Mentalism with Cards" video. The stack is a breeze to remember, the faces can be shown freely,
and is easy to compute backwards as well. Also on the tape are several mental routines and a couple of them are killer. Well worth checking out.

While I agree that Osterlind's stack is very good, it is just a sequential stack, which is a very different thing from a memorized deck stack.

... Doug

Thanks for the plug, Tony. The whole point of QuickStack, of course, is to provide a solution for those who want to do memorized deck work without devoting their lives to it!

I'm glad you like the Tarot effect. Most reviewers of the book have talked about the magic square and memorized deck stuff, but I'm partial to "Arcanum" myself!

... Doug

I've had a look at Doug's QuickStack from his excellent book, 'MindSights', and I've also enjoyed some very informative correspondence with him about this subject. QuickStack is very definitely well worth checking out.

As Doug knows, I'm also a big fan of the Memory Deck from Lewis Jones's book, Cardiograms. This is only a one way system (given any number, you know the card at that position) and it has some other limitations (which Lewis knows about, and intentionally didn't seek to eliminate). BUT it really does only take about 10 minutes to learn, and is is so easily memorised you won't believe it can be SO easy and yet as useful as it is. Plus Cardiograms has some great stuff in it.

I've used 8 Kings lots of times. The fact that quite a few laymen know it isn't a problem of course, because unless you're doing a very transparent trick the idea that a stack is involved doesn't even come into it. Lots of laymen who know about TTs are still astonished when the dollar bill becomes a 20!

FYI. In 1914, Theodore DeLand created and marketed a hand drawn, using india ink, card with a circular table, which included a rim with 1 through 52. The four inner circular lines were the four deck suits in the Si Stebben's stack order. With this card, knowing the position of any card in the stack revealed the name of the card at any other position. The copy of this card I have is made on heavy cardboard. Its hard to describe the particulars, but the thing works. Now all a person needs is a way to refer to a pocket circular slide-rule (remember those?) looking thing to know the card at any number in the deck and all the similar variations. The name of this item is DeLand's Card Locator. No instructions and no reference to the Si Stebbin's stack. Hunter

I had the pleasure of meeting Quentin last May in New Orleans and he was gracious enough to perform the "5 minutes with a pocket handkerchief" for a small group of us.
Quentin is a delightful performer, a true professional, an accomplished author and a real gentleman. If you ever have a chance to see him perform, be sure to do so.
Best regards,
Tony Razzano

This post was starting taling about the "eight kings" set up deck. I justwanted to add my two cents and say I think the most practical set up is the O-2 matic set up. It came out as a deck with a set up and short/long cards and a few other features but getting rid of the gaffs and just using the set up on an ordinary deck you will work miracles. A lot of set up deck such as stebbins are in an obvious set up order. Usually red black red black etc. This one is my favorite of the set up that can be spread face up and no "order" is detected.At any rate it is worth looking up if you haven't yet. It is by Bob Mason. Since it is a marketed thing I won't share the set up with you but feel free to look it up it is well worth it. I am not sure what an O-2 matic deck even cost today. I'm guessing like $7.00

Friends,

One of the problems with the Eight Kings stack is the time it takes to set it up. In his little 1931 "The Book Without a Name", Annemann had a quick way to do it.

Hal