Silver

Expert just sent me PM. He said he don't believe you.

I was just kidding.

Vehicle- ?
Binder - ?
Colorant - ?
Surfactent - ?
Dryer - ?

I will restate that I have not mentioned any particular web site or name brand in this thread...I have no problem with the Magic Café G-ds if they want to delete this thread.

I thought that I was helping and providing useful information to people who ask.

If my comments in the early part of this thread have no value....I appologise and would hope this threads dies peacefully

I will PM you Silverking and explain my position and will be happy to prove that what I say is true, without giving away anyone's trade secrets or formulas.

I still fail to understand why you are angry with me

Expertmagician just sent me a PM daring you to post all the information of the formulas!

(that was a follow up to tommy's joke)

Having exchanged PM's with Expertmagician, I won't be commenting further on how the online juice market is priced (we DO live in a free market country). (although it still drives me crazy to see young magicians sucked into buying stuff for $150.00 a bottle...........oh yeah, I said I'd let it go...sorry).

Having re-read my posts I feel that I unfairly directed my distain for the online juice market at Expertmagician, which wasn't my intent.

In the end, it's as it's always been, "buyer beware".

Cheers

I believe that silverking and I have made peace !

In closing...read the pros and cons of each juice product (listed above) carefully. Each has advantages and disadvantages depending upon your audience and working situations.

Most importantly, ease of use, detailed instructions (vs. 2-3 xeroxed pages), video clips and marking pattern ideas are critical when making a purchase decision. And even though silverking does not believe quality is an issue...Call me biased, but I believe that for the extra $1-2 per deck in cost...I personally would go with the best overall package.

Bye for now !
:)

But, but, but, tommy and I were trying to start a fight! You guys are no fun!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

"Juice? Yo, what the F is JUICE? I want apple DRANK.

Its GREEN!"

Oye vey!

You have to inject it on your leg and start lifting weights and it will make your muscles big and pumped up... then it will lead to stronger finger muscles for all the rifflestacking and cheating moves that need to be adressed..

Expertmagician

Just curious,

How do you feel about the juice recipe given in the book called "The secret science of covert ink" by Samuel Rubin. ?

The book itself is a goldmine of info that would not only find a home with most magicians but with terrorists as well. No joke.

It is out of print and next to impossible to get. However, I have my mint copy at home and think the recipe works well.

What do you think?

I can't say that I have seen that formula, so I can't comment. I can tell you that if the main ingredient is an alcohol, then your will have a problem with the finish of your cards getting burnt.

I know that I have said this before...but, simply take a drop of alcohol and place it on a card. The when you relect light off the back of the card, you sill see a "dull" area where the alcohol burned the finish of the card.

US Playing Card Company changed their finish formula about 15 years ago, so if yo find old cards you may be OK.

As far as the other ingredients which make a good Juice solution...I don't know what they used ? ... But, I can also tell you that old Juice solutions were easy to detect by using a UV/black light....where as new Juice solutions can not be detected that way.

I'll PM you.



Posted: Dec 28, 2006 10:44pm

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I just called 2 friends of mine and one of them knew the book...he said that the covert inks were geared toward invisible writing which was made visible by using heat, other chemicals, or light (UV, etc.). To his knowledge, they were not similar to the solutions used when marking cards because marked cards must be read in the open while other people are watching.

He did say that he would check to see if any solutions were close to professional solutions used today...But, it was unlikely because "spys" can read their covert messages in the privacy of their own home

Actually,

The book covers a ton of ink related formulas. They have invisible inks, exploding inks, poison inks, Gamblers Inks and the list goes on. What your friend mentioned was correct but, it doesn't count for the Gamblers ink section. They go over shade, daub, juice, UV etc.

This is why I mentioned that terrorists would like it as well. It really is a black market kind of book that makes you feel like a kid hiding from your parents reading playboy behind the house because of some of the things they show you how to do such as making a pen bomb etc.

You mentioned the effects of alcohol on the new cards. Is this the same with denatured alcohol? or will the denatured alcohol not have the same effect? or maybe it is worse?

I also see that a few "secret science of covert ink" by Samuel Rubin books have now surfaced on Amazon.com ranging from $50 - $150 used if anyone reading this was interested in getting a copy. When I got mine, I lucked out and I couldn't find another in sight and was told by one book guy that it would be a good idea to keep my copy as it would become a collectors item soon. Either way, its a very cool book that has the potential to be worth more money down the road.

I tried both denatured and regular alcohol....both have problems with the card's finish.

Ether is sometimes OK if you are careful. But, the solution does not last long because it evaporate quickly.

By the way, I am glad you made a good find. Bet they did not discuss radioactive inks ? Not that I would use them anyway.

Expertmagician: Can you recommend ANY non-alcohol based formulas that are in print?

Andru

The reason that a couple of videos and books started talking about Juice formulas about 15 years ago was that was when US Playing Card Company changed their finish and alcohol based solutions were no longer deceptive when light reflected off the back of their playing cards.

They intentionally wanted a burn/dull mark to appear where the card was marked in order to ake their cards more tamperproof since their primary market is gamblers and not magicians

In summary, I have not seen any non-alcohol based solutions in print or on tape. And I am sure the few people who have paid high prices for the new formulas would not want them published either....especially, if they also cannot be detected with a UV/black light. (UV detection was another problem with the early juice formulas. I heard that some gamblers are now carrying those "el-cheapo" UV lights that you can buy on a key chain, just to check for old juice marks.)

Look at it this way, if you had a formula which you paid a lot of money for or spent years developing, that worked, would you publish it or discuss it on video ? On the other hand , you may discuss an old formula which is no longer effective so it looks like you are giving away a "deep dark" secret In addition, these magicians can honestly say that it is a "real juice" formula....unfortunately, they don't tell you that it no longer works unless you are using 15+ year old cards....due to burn/dull marks on the finish or allows for UV detection.

Denatured alcohol is simply normal alcohol that's been tampered with so you can't drink it.
Any alcohol burns cards if it's in a concentrated enough form, or if you leave it on the cards long enough.

But.....you can cut alcohol with lots of things, water, glycerine,........who says you even NEED the alcohol?

"Alcohol based" and "contains alcohol" are two different statements.

Just remember the purpose of a solvent is to disolve the colorant, and then carry it to the surface to be coated. The only job of the solvent after the coating containing it has been applied is to evaporate and leave the colorant behind.

Expertmagician: Can you recommend any non-alcohol based formulas for block-out work?

Andru

I would have to research that....the best Block-out work ink I have seen did not burn or dull the finish...but, it left a shinny area.

By the way, I am sure you know this, but block-out or cut-out marks are easily detected by using the "gamblers riffle test". But, I'll PM you about block-out ink anyway.