Hey guys.. I don't know about you, but I sometimes get confused when in threads, people call one dove prop one thing, and the next person calls it a totally different thing.. This thread being one of them.

Here is what I think all of the props and woding should be:


Dove Holder - Something you place your dove INTO, and fasten so that you can produce it from silks or something else covering the production. The audience never sees this prop. Although it blends in with the silks, so they do see it, but they asume it is part of the silks.

Dove Bag - A prop that actually looks like a bag, and can be shown to the audience. You unzip it, or open it, and a dove appears from inside.

Dove Harness - Also called an Invisible Dove Harness (IDH). Something that you place on your dove that blends in with its feathers, and can produce the dove with no, or little cover from other items. Goes on the dove similar to a parachute harness on a human. (Kind of)

Dove Pocket - This is not really ever confused, but simply, the place to store your dove load into until you are ready to produce the dove.


I just wanted to demonstrate to everyone what, in my opinion, all of these dove magic props should properly be called and refered to so they are not mixed up and confused.

-Vinnie

What does it matter we all know what we are talking about

graham fishman

Dove Holder is more commonly called a Dove Bag.

Graham, so that people don't get these confused.. And everyone may know what were talking about, but I think it would be better to call each individual prop its specific, real name.. Just IMO.

Baluk, I'm going to have to disagree on that.. Did you do a poll of the magic community?

-Vinnie

Vinnie, to an extent, I agree with Graham. Most dove workers know what is being talked about regardless of what it is called. Only the very new worker may not know but they quickly learn.

There are other names for Dove props such as Dove jacket which is the same as a dove holder. There is also the dove release which is also the same as a dove holder. Dove bag is very often used instead of dove holder but we know what is being discussed. When used in a conversation, I don't believe anyone really serious about dove magic is confused.

Ok, I understand.. Sorry for the commotion guys.. =

-Vinnie

Hey Vinnie, it was a good topic. Don't apologize.

Vinnie: The important thing is that YOU continue to use the correct terms, and if someone posts something in a way you don't understand, ask them which term they mean.

You can't undo years of misinformation and it is much more difficult to reteach than it is to teach correctly in the first place, but it doesn't have to affect YOU. Don't allow sloppy thinking and terminology into your view of magic and you will be a better magician for it. By working out those definitions and categories of your magic equipment, you have already shown that you have the mental discipline to be a great magician, if you choose to be one. Maybe even a wizard.

You may recall that once Houdini realized that his command of the English language was holding him back, he began taking English lessons and began a routine of self-education that lasted the rest of his life. You are already starting at a much higher educational level than Houdini when he was a grown man, so you have great potential for the future. Just don't let others discourage you.

OK, since we have a topic running now, who is to say the the proper word is Dove Holder as opposed to Dove Jacket or Dove release as per my example above. One may be used more than the other but it doesn't mean that it is any more correct. It is not necessarily sloppy thinking if another term is used instead of the common one.

I don't believe any of us were trying to discourage you, Vinnie, only expanding on your thought.

Thanks for the help guys, and Dave, I can now see that you are absolutely correct! I was really just going by what I wanted to call them, and what I had been calling them.. But have come to realize that one prop doesn not need to be called one specific name..

Thanks for your guys' help! =]
-Vinnie

Ps, but please, the rest of you try to answer Dave's question.. I'd like to see some answers..

The terms for these pieces of dove magic paraphernalia have been spelled out for a long time. You can call a "dove holder" a "flapdoodle" for all I care, but not when you want me to understand what you are talking about.

I will use as my source and authority for these terms Ian Adair's "Encyclopedia of Dove Magic," where he is very careful to always call a dove holder a dove holder and never once calls it a dove jacket or a dove release, which are terms I do not recognize from anywhere in the literature as synonyms for "dove holder." Adair uses exactly the same terms and definitions as Vinnie postulates (dove holder, dove harness, dove pocket, dove bag) that we should all be using so that we can discuss dove magic with some degree of accuracy.

The names are unimportant to laymen, but should be as important to the professional magician as the terms doctors use to precisely communicate with one another. A doctor will talk to you about your "heart attack" but to another doctor he will discuss your "myocardial infarction."

Well, there again, one source Ian Adair's book. Try to order a dove holder from Peter White at P&A silks and you'll get a phone call asking what exactly you want. Ask for a dove jacket and you'll get it right away. Ask General grant for a dove holder and he'll say, what kind. Ask for a dove release and he'll sell you one.

Who is correct, Ian Adair, Peter White or General Grant? My feeling is they are all correct.