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Caliban Special user 727 Posts |
Hi Eric
The Banana/Bandana trick had already been offered as an example several times in this thread, so that is why I pointed out the irony. To answer your question: It’s only my opinion, but I do think that the Bandana is a hack routine, simply because hundreds of other magicians do exactly the trick with exactly the same presentation. If a magician sent a promotional DVD to a major cruise booker and included the Bandana Trick – they would not get booked. The booker would have seen the same trick performed in exactly the same way by countless other magicians and would immediately reject that performer because of it. The whole point of the Bandana trick is that, what you are buying is the comedy presentation. And it is that standard presentation that makes it hack. At the opposite end of the spectrum, consider Mac King’s Cards Across routine: The method is very standard, but it’s as far away from being a hack routine as you can possibly get. That's because the premise of the presentation is so original. The presentation perfectly showcases the uniqueness of the performer’s character. That, I think, is a worthy goal to aspire to. Now I’m not saying that everyone who performs the Bandana is a hack. And I have never seen Eric perform so I'm in no position to have an opinion about him as a performer. But, I’m a big believer in having “primary material” (the unique material upon which your reputation as a performer is built), and “secondary material” (other stuff you can also do). There is nothing wrong with doing something like the Bandana at a local gig for laypeople who have never seen another magician before. But it is not going to help build anyone a reputation outside of that environment. Copperfield may have performed the Bandana trick once on TV, but it’s not in his main act. It is secondary material. Also, I suspect that Copperfield may have been one of the first to perform the trick. At the time, it could well have been an original routine that few people had seen before. By the way: Am I the only person who finds it amusingly ironic that this thread is now next to a thread about the Comedy Egg Beater routine??? |
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Eric Lott New user Michigan 85 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-15 05:43, Caliban wrote: See, this is the part I'm struggling with. You're absolutely right. Hundreds of magicians perform VB and most of them, like myself, perform it right out of the box. And I know of one magician who had a recurring show in Vegas who performed it day in, day out. The part I'm struggling with in this whole argument is where does the audience fit into the equation? Where does entertaining come in? To a layman who has never seen VB, it can be a hilarious routine. If my primary responsibility as a magician is to entertain people, don't I have an obligation to find the best material available to do that? In other words, is it about me or about them? I'm beginning to wonder if magicians not wanting to be "hack" isn't more about their own pride. |
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Caliban Special user 727 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-02-15 08:31, Eric Lott wrote: Absolutely, as a performer my own job satisfaction is very important to me. But I don't see it as an either/or situation. Ideally, I want to entertain the audience AND have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm doing something unique as well. Audiences are not going to be as entertained if I don't really BELIEVE in the material myself. But you are right that not wanting to do hack material is partly a matter of personal pride. If my only goal were to entertain the audience (and that audience hadn't seen other magic acts) it wouldn't really matter. There is a great essay in Eric Mead's new book (Tangled Web) about the fact that, after most magic acts, the audience knows no more about the performer than they did before the act started, because nothing of the performer's individuality has been communicated. The title is "Say Anything" and I highly recommend it to anyone who has an interest in the topics discussed in this thread. |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Caliban,
Is every magician that performs Banana/Bandana, Silk to Egg, Gene Anderson’s Torn and Restored Newspaper or any of a hundred other magic routines you deem to be hackneyed, a hack? Are you also stating, this is the only reason a magician would be called a hack? Do you also contend that performers and audience have the same definition of hack and use hack in the same way?
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Caliban Special user 727 Posts |
Tom,
As I said in my previous post, no I don't think that performing Banana/Bandana always makes the performer a hack. I do one illusion in my show but that doesn't make me an illusionist. The same performer might have other material that isn't hack at all. And I should stress that I have not labeled one single performer as a hack - I've only described specific standard routines as being hack, when performed in the same way that everyone else does them. Also, I don't believe that either Torn and Restored Newspaper or Silk to Egg are hack tricks. Both are classic effects that can be presented in unique ways and used to express the performer's personality. It entirely depends on what the performer does with them. In fact, I don't regard any standard effects as being hack in themselves - it's only standard presentations of those effects that I personally regard as being hack. The Bandana isn't a standard trick - it is a standard presentation. I'm not sure that many audiences would have a definition of the word hack. In this context, it's a word that is more often used by those within the entertainment business. And an audience's perception of whether a routine is hackneyed or not would depend very much on their frame of reference. A crowd of laypeople who had never seen the Bandana trick before might consider it to be brilliantly original. Different audiences will have different viewpoints. And I am likely to be much more critical than most audiences (of my own material as well as other people's) because, from my viewpoint as a professional magician, I know much more about how original routines are. And no, I'm not stating this is the only reason a magician might be called a hack. But having an act made up entirely of standard presentations and unoriginal gags that lots of other performers use - is the only reason a magician might be called a hack by me. |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Caliban,
Well said! Respectfully, Tom
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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JoePresto New user 27 Posts |
An attempt to avoid performing effects that other magicians perform resulted in spending a small fortune and about 15 years studying everything that is available. (I was not limited by an effects preparation and/or difficulty level as I was willing to build anything and practice as much as needed to perform the effect successfully. I also had access to expert advice.) So what effects did I find that no one is performing and are usable in the real world? (I define usuable as effects that will actually fool people badly, are interesting, can be entertaining if presentated properly and are not so impractical that you can only perform them for people on your left.) Less than 30 effects. I discovered one reason a lot of magicians perform the same effects. The reason is is that they work in the real world under not so ideal conditions and situations. Therefore, it's not always the result of lazyness or just being a "hack" that magicians perform similar effects. I discovered that there are some very good reasons for performing certain effects that other magicians perform.
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Paul Draper V.I.P. Las Vegas, Nevada 245 Posts |
Award winning magician Jason Andrews and I made a video of "Hack" lines that magicians say. http://youtu.be/-c2GH1Ot8SQ feel free to share with your magician friends.
Hack Lines: A joke that has been frequently used by comedians or Magicians in the past, and is blatantly stolen from its original author. Short for"hackneyed" meaning over used, cheapened, or trite. (This definition was blatantly stolen from Wikipedia) These lines were & are really funny when used by the people who invented them & entertainers who make them their own. Many of these lines were originated by great performers like Walter Blaney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YACRdgj_A_M & Michael Finney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YiOVubj-wg. Jason & I love watching great performers use these lines in superb ways to delight their audiences. We just don't like it when some insert them into their shows without the work to make them their own. The next video will have Hack costumes, props and moves. Yes... I have used several of them. Jason has too. We should write our own... BUT THEY ARE SOOO GOOD! Sometimes it hurts to have it pointed out, perhaps we should have called them STOCK lines rather than hack lines. The key is in making them your own and truly understanding the line and how it fits perfectly with the effect and character better then anything else. To find out more about us: Jason Andrews: http://www.jasonandrewsmagic.com/ Paul Draper: http://mentalmysteries.com/ http://pauldraperactor.com/ |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
A six year old girl comes up to assist me. I ask for her name and how old she is. My next question, “Are you married?”
I use this (hack?) line in EVERY show. Why? Because its gets a laugh EVERY time. I use the break away wand in EVERY show. Why? Because it gets a laugh EVERY time. In fact, I now use two break away wands and now I get more laughs EVERY show. Several of you have eluded to the fact that using stock lines and doing the classics of magic are common among working professionals---successful professionals. I agree and can attest to that. Even people like Doc Eason when given an opportunity to appear on national TV chose to perform Kate and Edith. Lance Burton chose to do silk to egg on a TV talk show and B Wave on a short spot on the Daytona 500 one year. Are they hacks or smart? As some on this thread have mentioned many do tired old tricks because they work, they get a great reaction from the audience. As one performs it over and over the performer’s personality can’t help to make it unique. Furthermore, we magicians get into thinking because we’ve seen the linking rings a thousand times and are sick of it, we somehow think that our audience is sick of it too, when in fact there is a good chance they’ve never seen it before. While being original is very worthwhile goal to have, many of us are either not gifted in that area or it takes us a very long time to develop. So, what do we do in the meantime? Not perform at all in fear that magicians will think we’re hacks? I really, really liked Levent’s post. Quote:
On 2007-01-26 17:42, Levent wrote: I especially like the line, ”To me stock jokes or tricks are like weeds in your lawn. At some point you have to pull them out for the health of your act and for your soul as an artist.” That’s a really good way to put it. It would be great if we all had a perfect lawn with no weeds. For the majority of us that is unrealistic. But we should never stop trying, because there is great satisfaction in a truly original product. But in the meantime, keep the lawn watered and fertilized, and from a distance, all you see is a beautiful color of green.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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