|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2 | ||||||||||
Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
I like your points, Danny.
So what about the ma and pa situation compared to the Fortune 500 company? You would charge them the same price? I know it seems right, but it doesn't seem right at the same time... There was a famous magician (Fred Kaps?) who said that at the end of the day, it's still money in your pocket that you wouldn't have had otherwise. So how do you guys feel about this? Should you have a price and a walk price? Or should you just have one price that is set in stone? I agree with Danny, taking away value is weak. So how can you go out the door for less money without being looked at like a car salesman? This is a great thread by the way! Negotiating can be tricky! I know Danny's answer to my question on the last post. What about the rest of you? How do you negotiate a lower price for strolling magic? Other than the obvious(time)? Posted: Mar 22, 2007 6:41pm One more thing, this is actually for Danny... Danny, you asked how does them hiring Brittany affect my value? It doesn't...but here is something to think about. I have heard of magicians losing jobs because they didn't charge ENOUGH! If they hired an act like Brittany the year before and you tell them your pocket change rate (compared to Brittany), what will they think? People associate value with money. How do they know what you are worth? Like Mr. Ammar says, negotiating is the highest paid work you will ever do. If you knew that you could get hundreds, if not thousands more, would you not do it? Keep in mind, I have only been performing professionally for 5 or 6 years. I still love this stuff! I would do it for free! Don't tell my clients that!!!!!!!! So if you still love what you do (I am sure you do, Danny), how can you put a value on it anyway? You will probably ask what is your time worth? If I wasn't performing at night, 3 days a week, or doing all of my private shows, I would be at home practicing or playing with magic anyway. I have a day job (sales) that pays very well, so by comparison, magic is my "fun job". So I charge what I think I can get because it is really impossible for me to put a value on what I do, if that makes any sense at all.. |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hart, think of this. Your time is worth X. Ma and Pa may want a Ferrari, but can't afford one. No way to get one, life moves on. Many people want what they can't have.
A lot of guys feel that "working" is better than not. I am of a different opinion. It is ONLY an opinion though, NOT A LAW OF SOME SORT. Understand though, my business is structured different than most. Also, think of it this way... IF you do negotiate and then take the lower fee, when a call comes in for the same date and could have done the regular price, you have taken money OUT of your own pocket. I guess that is the other point. If you're filling up dates, then no need to negotiate, now is there? You're right, though...great talking.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
Sorry, guys!!!! One more thing that I want to clarify!
After I get ALL the details, I give a price based on what I think I can get out of the client. Like I said, ma and pa will get a different rate than Microsoft. After I give that price, I DO NOT NEGOTIATE. That is my big question! (Sorry, not trying to hijack thread!) How do you negotiate from this point? Is there a professional way of dropping your price? Would I entertain the Fortune 500 company for the same price as ma and pa? Of course!!! But how do you backtrack once you have given your rate? Quote:
On 2007-03-22 18:43, Dannydoyle wrote: EXACTLY!!! This happened to me a couple times a few years back. During the holidays, of course! When you have more shows than you know what to do with. Supply and demand! But what if it's during a slow time, and you have nothing else going on? You still say no? Danny, you really give the same price to EVERYONE? |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
The reason many guys are thought of as "sleazy" is that they "try to get what they can out of the client".
Though it is the obvious goal, remember "you can shear a sheep many times, but slaughter it only once." Not my saying, but it applies. My business has always been based on RELATIONSHIPS, not on what I can get out of them. For example, I get what I get. When a friend asks them what they paid and they are told, (NO MATTERR WHAT YOUR CONTRACT SAYS, THEY WILL TELL) it establishes price. I know LOTS of guys who burn bridges because they are thought of as chislers. So I don't work as many ma and pa places, BUT when I do, the work that I get from them is booked at THAT rate. Your clients talk. To put in clauses to tell them not to seems as if you are hiding something. Not a good "relationship". I have clients who feel I am the only one who can do what I do. Man, if they only knew! But that is just how they feel. I sell ME, not magic, not hypnosis, not anything but ME. They are buying me. So as ME, NOT MAGIC, I can easily put a value on my time. This is what I mean by my business is set up different than most. Oh, and I don't think there IS a way to drop the price without looking bad. Part of the reason I do it this way is I HATE negotiation for things I buy. To me, it is little lies told to try to best someone. Again, only me. Now, let me say this. Is it possible with my list of clients that another perhaps more aggressive negotiator could extract some more money from them? Likely, yes, in truth. BUT it comes to what you are willing to do for the money, and just how much you need. I have been told many, many times to do things to keep going up in price and yada-yada-yada. BUT having 13 year relationships with clients has a value also. And if you make it all about "price", someone will beat you eventually. Make the negotiations about YOU, you are the product. All good sales are done this way. Hart, let me recommend something. Xerox has a sales course, called PSS, and teaches features and benefits. Look into taking one. You seem highly motivated, and this course used to be "industry standard" for sales reps for quite a long time. There are many out there, and I only mention this as my experience is with this one. BUT they are worth their weight in gold. The idea that objections are simply opportunities to show features. LOTS of things about "asking for the sale" and so on. I bet you would really love the course, or one like it. As I said, you seem very motivated, and this will do you FAR better than ANYTHING written by ANYONE in the magic community about the subject.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
Danny makes some excellent points. Once you set your fee, the only question is, "Can you close business at that level?"
You can set your fee on paper to be anything, for example $2500, but if most of your bookings are for $500, then you are not a $2500 act. If you aren't getting calls from prospects who can afford your fee, then either you are not worth what you are charging, you are not communicating that value, or you are marketing to the wrong people. That being said, I think it is fine to set a fee and also have a policy for accepting a lower fee. For example, I offer discounts to non-profit organizations, clients who book multiple dates, and clients who are able to piggyback on another booking if I am in their area. It works for me. Jim |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Jim, the "sharing expenses" thing really helps, too; block booking, as NACA refers to it.
Unfortunately, I have only rarely run into it outside of colleges. BUT if you can take advantage of "volume discounts", that does not seem bad to me either.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Jim Snack Inner circle 1338 Posts |
Danny, that's exactly what I was referring to. If I am in route from another booking and the offer fits in well with my travel plans, I might accept a lower fee just because it saves me an additional travel day.
Block booking is more suited to colleges, where the student activity directors actually talk to each other and coordinate bookings to get a better price. It is rare in other markets, however. I did have two fairs that were in adjacent counties in New York, and one immediately followed the other, so I block booked them every year. But that's about it. Jim |
|||||||||
Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-03-22 19:17, Dannydoyle wrote: Danny, thank you for the recommendation, but I have had quite a bit of sales training. I was licensed and sold insurance for two years. Prior to that, I was in Boardsport sales. My current day job (for the last year) has been powerboat sales. I absolutely love it. In this business, there is some "haggling". The Internet has made it so there is not as much haggling (due to prices being online for all to see), but it is still there. I guess having one price and sticking to it is more like insurance sales (in my experience), the price is the price. Whereas in powerboat sales, you "pad" the numbers, giving yourself "room".... Posted: Mar 23, 2007 12:36pm This is such a great thread!! A few more things I want to bring up... If you are booking %95-%100 of shows, shouldn't you raise your rates? Let me explain... During this last holiday season, I booked about %95 of my shows. Since then, I have decided to raise my rates because I figure I should have lost more on price. How do you guys feel about this? Also, what about supply and demand? Do you feel that you should raise your rates during certain times of the year, knowing that your dates will be filled and you will turn away a fair amount of shows? |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hart, I apologize, I didn't know. I was making a suggestion. Please take no offence, I meant NONE by it; just trying to converse.
Yes, in my opinion, the Internet really has taken a lot of wiggle room from the job. It is what I was getting at, and is why a lot of establishments like car dealers are going to this price is the price thing. Our culture is changing. I say nothing about the way I do it being right or being wrong, only that it is a successful business model for many. One option.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
No problem, Danny!
|
|||||||||
iwillfoolu Special user Upstate NY, USA 746 Posts |
Great thoughts on sales and negotiation here.
As far as the three day fair, I stuck with my price and didn't get the job (they wanted something at 1/3 or 1/4 of my price). Just another no on my way to my next yes. I gave them some really good benefits compared to the other entertainment. I just can't compete on price (Danny is sooooooo right on this point). As far as walk around, you can lower your price by offering less time OR a lesser service. For example maybe for $1000 you do 4 hours with flash paper and giveaways (the total package ). Or for only $800 you do 4 hours with only cards and coins. Or for $500 you do two hours of cards and coins (simple stuff) As far as quoting different rates to a pizza shop and Micro, I wholeheartedly agree. They are each looking for a different product/service from you. Ma and Pa will be happy when you show up with a colorful outfit. Microsoft wants you dressed to the nines (I assume) in white tie, tails and a top hat. Also it is highly unlikely that Micro wants you to perform for as few people as Ma and Pa do. The shows will be to VERY different audiences. but if you are offfering a basic 1/2 hour show to everyone for a set price, then that should be your set price. I personally quote rates for specific events. Recently, I found out just how important the first step of negotiations is. Check out my post titled "Mom keeps changing her mind" in the Little Darlings section on the Café. Here's the first step (mentioned before) Negotiations Step 1) Find out EXACTLY what the other side wants (try to find out as much info as possible: what they have done before, how much entertainment they are looking for, etc) I'm still working on the rest of the steps Joe |
|||||||||
Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I give a price, and that's it. I guess I'd be a better sales person by using the Ammar techniques, but then it would turn into a sales job, which I don't want. Nothing wrong with sales jobs, I'm just not good at it.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Joe,
See, when you start to do things like, "If you want better tricks, it costs more," you have reduced yourself to the sum of your tricks. That is not really a good thing to do. The reason is, the next guy who comes along with a better price, or better tricks, has the job. Sell yourself.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
Hart Keene Inner circle Eugene, OR 1486 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-03-27 12:57, Dannydoyle wrote: I agree with Danny. I would never dream of saying, "For this much less, I will do more basic effects. If you want the good stuff, it costs more." That would just be ridiculous. You should always do your best stuff; you never know who is watching. Think of each group as an audition for another show... |
|||||||||
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hart, that last sentence is absolutely right on the money. Could not be said better.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Negotiations. HELLLLLLLLLLLP! (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2 |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.06 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |