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chris mcbrien Inner circle Chicago 1235 Posts |
JoyJoy,
OT: Must follow laws or else you will be judged by them and your afterlife determined by them. (God judges by actions) NT: Must follow laws and you've already been forgiven through blood of Christ. You will be saved by your acceptance of Him. (God judges by acceptance) So what's your view on this comment? BTW: It's rude for anyone to come on and say "you're wrong!" when it comes to things like how I personally look at God's word in my life. And, I'm stating my feeling the best I can. Many of my feelings about Christ, God (and the Trinity in general) and the message of the Bible are honestly beyond words. Sorry if I was too vague, or running things together. |
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Joe Marotta Special user Can You Believe I Have 944 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-09 12:43, chris mcbrien wrote: OT: God saves by righteousness. God gave the 10 Commandments to reveal His Holy Standard and they show how that the people fall short of being good enough to get to heaven on their own merit. OT people were saved when they put their trust and belief in God's Word and then God gave them His righteousness "Genesis 15:6 Moses believed and He accounted it to him as righteousness". That is great love shown on God's part. NT: God saves by righteousness. The 10 Commandments still reveal God's Holy standard and still show that people fall short of being good enough to get to heaven on their own merit. NT people were not saved by the law but by belief in God's WORD "these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name". Jesus lived a Holy, sinless, righteous life and took the punishment for our sins onto Himself. We broke the commandments and Jesus paid our fine. That is great love again shown on God's part. We are saved by repenting from our sinful lifestyle and putting our faith in Jesus. Then God accounts Jesus' righteousness to us, because of what Jesus did for us. So what does this have to do with Magic and The Magic Café? Well, of all the magic tricks and illusions that I've seen in the last 50 years, none come remotely close to the effect of having your sins forgiven and you being made acceptable to God. And that's NO illusion. I would love to talk with you more about this but I think we should all continue this particular conversation via PM messages. Best to you Chris, Joe |
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chris mcbrien Inner circle Chicago 1235 Posts |
Here's something to consider:
"Thou Shalt Not Judge" To what level do you understand this? Where does Love come in to play with this??? |
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Tom Riddle Special user Chelsea, UK 507 Posts |
In my experience there are many radical theologians in America who are narrow-minded at best and constantly push "WE are right, YOU are wrong".
I'd hate to bring up being Catholic here. And of course I realize there are radicals EVERYWHERE. Even here. Seems the Christian Fundamentalists don't understand "thou shalt not judge". They're too busy cramming their own brand of cake down your throat to appreciate anyone else's views....barbaric and un-Christian!
"Yes, Virginia, there really are people named Riddle...isn't that AMAZING! And to think of all the royalties I'm missing out on! SCANDALOUS!"
Thomas Williamson Riddle III Chelsea, UK |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Boy it's fun to sit here on the sidelines and watch the reformation play out in miniature right here on this board
He's cast off a shoe it is a sign he wishes us to cast off our shoes as well. No it's a sign he wants us to go forth and gather shoes! I suspect this thread will be closing in a few more moments
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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DanielSteep Inner circle 1409 Posts |
Sad part is. all I was asking for in advice and it ended in people running there mouths in what THEY think is right..
A guy is drowning in the middle of the ocean. no one is around. A boat passes says do you want me to help? guy says no, god will help me.. another boat does the same thing and he responds saying no! God shall helpme!.. he ends up dying.. he goes to heaven and says.. god.. I was in need.. why didn't you help? god looked to him and said.. I sent you two *** boats! |
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chris mcbrien Inner circle Chicago 1235 Posts |
Payne,
I really just wanted to create some introspection. I find it hard to dwell on opinions when the wide world is out there waiting....I've always tried to keep things as simple as I could, I find more clarity that way. Tom, Thanks, old friend, for "getting my back" as it were. I've pm'ed you. your post reminds me of late nights at "Papa Dams" with the guys from the MC talking about magic and philosphy. Remember the "floating pip" in the coffee? Valerie screamed adn screamed at that one! I think she really thought you were a wizard after that! Magical Odyssey, LOVE that story!!!!! It says a LOT! I do hope some of what went on here helped you! I am sorry about what it turned into. I did'nt think I'd get that kind of "attention". I was really trying to help. This is one of the reasons I'm keeping all my shows with churches very, very simple....it always turns out better that way. Best, Chris |
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DanielSteep Inner circle 1409 Posts |
Thanks chris.
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Joe Marotta Special user Can You Believe I Have 944 Posts |
Hi Tom, First off, Welcome to The Magic Café! Glad that you could join us. I was raised Catholic (Italian Catholic) so don't think that your being a Catholic puts you in a negative or defensive position around here. I hope you'll feel comfortable and welcome enough to join into any topic and offer your assistance and opinion.
Hi Chris, Please see my PM to you explaining that the 10 Commandments does NOT contain your quote "Thou Shalt Not Judge". Actually Leviticus 19:15 says in righteousness we are to judge our neighbor. I previously posted in response to your explanation of the OT/NT message because I think you had missed a part of it. I apologize to you if you feel I was judging you as a person. Your response back to me felt somewhat lacking in love, so it leads me to ask, when does love come into play when dealing with people who don't see or agree with your view? Is everyone supposed to be loving and tolerant towards you without expecting it to be reciprocated? Where is you love towards those who disagree with you? Please see my PM sent to you in love and respect. And there is no sarcasm in that last sentence, truly. Payne, you always crack me up! I was wondering if you were ever going to chime in here. Thank you for the indirect compliment by the way. I've never been compared to one of the great Reformers until now. Personally, I see myself as one of the Knights Who Say Ni! Hi Daniel, so how are things going for you? You asked if you should take the church gig and you received some great responses. Rev John, Terry, Flourish Dude, Chris McBrian, JoyJoy... all have responded to your question with advice that you requested. I hope you weren't put off with my response to Chris's post regarding OT/NT. Although it wasn't an answer to your question directly, I think it held some details that you may wish to use if so inclined. Good luck with whatever you decide to do and please give us an update when you are finished. Okay, anyone else have a magical recommendation for Chris? Peace to all, Joe |
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JoyJoy Special user Germany 514 Posts |
Chriss I did not judge you and did not attack you personally. Sorry if you did get that wrong.
But if I read something wrong, I will stand against it. And that is what I am trying: It is wrong to say that the difference between OT and NT is love. God loved us from the beginning and wanted us to love him and others (FROM THE BEGINNING till today) in OT and NT! So love is nothing new... God is always the same. PS: Btw - also the 10 Commandments are signs of his love. He wants us to live! |
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JoyJoy Special user Germany 514 Posts |
Daniel - you did get some informations. I hope enough.
The most important thing: Be honest! If you believe in what you are telling with a chosen gospel-magic-trick: Great! Tell the world that healing news. If you wanna use gospel-magic for the church convention, you have to be confident about the particulare message you are telling. It´s no funny joke or a role. It´s essential and no room for compromise. "ive never studied the bible nor have I really gone to church every week... but is it wrong for me to perform for a church?" 2 things: - only in shortness: you are not a christian by going to church, etc... you get it by accepting Jesus as your saviour and lord... - no matter of someone believing or not - it is not wrong to perform for a church. why should it be? it would be wrong, if you are not honest with them. If you only would get booked, cause you told them wrong things about you... than yes, that would be wrong. Otherwise it´s their decision, what they are buying... if they shopped "entertainment" - yep! No prob... "they asked if I could do my show BUT add in some relation to chruch ect." Why did they ask that? Did they expect that from you from the beginning? And can you stand for it? No matter, what they want. Don´t let them force you into something! Again if you can stand for the message, you gonna tell - okay! Be honest! With them, with you, with the public, with God. I never play a role, also if a commercial company is offering me a VERY well paid engagement. If I can´t stand for it, I decline... |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
I love the story about the sending the boat,....
This nearly normal guy has been telling a similar story for years. Why did "He" talk in parables...not the reason I first thought. Those that have ears let them hear. From a non theological(sic??) source...I would pick pleasant over appearing smart...quote said by Jimmy Stewart in the movie Harvey. The role he played was often involved with "spirits of another nature". On my reading table the last couple of days Romans.... Harris...
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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DanielSteep Inner circle 1409 Posts |
"Why did they ask that? Did they expect that from you from the beginning? And can you stand for it?
No matter, what they want. Don´t let them force you into something! Again if you can stand for the message, you gonna tell - okay!" they asked about it, and I told them I would get back to them.. I just figured that MAYNBE this would be a start of a new thing for me,... who knew.... |
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chris mcbrien Inner circle Chicago 1235 Posts |
Joe,
No offense, but I never said I took that from the 10 C's..... |
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davidemerson New user 7 Posts |
Daniel, I'd have to respectfully agree with some of the thinking posted above. Specifically, if you don't believe it, then don't teach it.
In saying that you don't attend church, sounds like you aren't "plugged into the Lord" at this time in your life. But, yet, you are WILLING to go into a church and teach Bible messages. I would suggest that the Lord is calling you into this. As such, then, please be open, and just say a quick and simple prayer asking the Lord to use you... To speak through you... To use you as an instrument. If I had "waited" until my life was "just right" and I could live up to the messages I was speaking in front of the audiences, well, I would NEVER have gotten into Gospel magic. But, what happened, was, I could see the RAW POWER in God speaking through me, and people coming forward and giving their hearts to the Lord. Drug addicts, goth, occultists, and more. THIS IS WHAT CHANGED ME. Then, I became SUPER MOTIVATED and inspired to get my own life right with the Lord. In summary, Daniel, I would urge you to just jump into this head first. If you can get more bookings to speak and perform at churches, then run with it. Go full throttle with this. Many Gospel magicians (myself included) find it difficult to get into churches. If you are getting into churches, I would suggest it is the Lord opening doors for you. Hop into the harvest! Post more messages at the Café telling us how you are doing! May God richly bless you! |
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chris mcbrien Inner circle Chicago 1235 Posts |
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Joe Marotta Special user Can You Believe I Have 944 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-11 20:43, chris mcbrien wrote: Chris, Thanks. No offense taken. No offense meant to you either Brother. Thanks also for the link to the Paul Proctor article on judging. I love what he said: “Thou shalt not judge” is, in reality, a false commandment and a common cliché among liberals whose theology comes from socialists instead of scripture that implies everything Christians did on Sunday morning before Willow Creek and Saddleback was somehow wrong, as if the REAL church was born in the 60’s under a Peace sign on a lighted stage before an applauding audience rather than under an old rugged cross 2000 years ago on a lonely hill called Golgotha, where tears, sacrifice and suffering were the order of the day – the kind of cross that’s getting harder and harder to find in and around today’s reinvented rock and roll church." I hope others will read the article in its entirety. Good stuff. Peace to you, Joe |
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Bendy Special user Columbus, Ohio 518 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-08-10 17:19, chris mcbrien wrote: Here's something else to consider: "Thou shalt not judge" is not in the Bible. You're taking an out-of-context quote and applying it as a command and as it suits your purposes. In Matthew, chapter 7, the Bible teaches us not to judge, lest we be judged. With the harshness in which we judge others, we will also be judged. That's all. The Bible also tells us to judge righteously. If someone lies and we tell them they have lied and that, according to the Bible, "all liars have their place in the lake of fire," we are NOT judging them. We are telling them that there is a standard higher than them that they have violated. Calling a murderer a murderer is not judging them unrighteously; but is telling them the truth. And if we follow our judgements with the truth of the Gospel of Christ, then we are, in fact, acting in much love. Love comes into play in what Christ did for us and love comes into play when we do, in fact, judge others righteously and follow that judgement with the Truth. That having been said, I think that if a church has asked Magical Oddyssey to perform, there is nothing wrong with him doing so. However, I think he should not attempt to teach, through magic, things he obviously does not fully understand. I think that could be more dangerous than performing with no message whatsoever. I think it would be ethical for him to inform the church that he will provide a clean, family-friendly performance but that he isn't comfortable in adding to or altering his performace to include messages he does not believe or fully understand. If the church wants evangelism via magic, they should seek out a Gospel Magician better prepared for their specific needs. ...And that, ladies and gents, is my 2 cents worth on this. |
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kaleido-magic New user 71 Posts |
Daniel,
There is a lot of varied advice here. Use what helps. I will simply state there is nothing wrong with you going and performing. Try your regular act, just make sure it won't offend the audience. You don't have to try to give any meaning or stories to your work. If you have an interest in learning gospel magic, then go learn it. Being an instructor of various subjects, I would have to agree that you shouldn't try to teach something you don't know. I am glad you asked the questions, I loved the replies. If you feel you can give a good and appropriate performance, go do it. Best of luck. Brett Bensley |
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DanielSteep Inner circle 1409 Posts |
POSTED AUGEST 9TH
Thanks Guys.. Right now I think that they shall just deal with my show.. and if they need a gospel magician they can find sumone else.. |
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