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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Most new magic today is built on principles that were created a long time ago. I have read a lot of "flame wars' on ethics, and honestly, I feel often the accusers are doing it for their own aggrandizement. I also wish to note that sometimes magical ideas are "in the air" and can be originally created by several people.
These are my questions: 1) When does magic ethically become public domain? (Please do not quote the law, this is not about the law, it is about ethics). a) If a product is exactly copied, how long must one wait before it is unethical to recreate it without permission from the originator? b) If a product incorporates a principle from another trick, how long must one wait to recreate it without permission from the originator? c) How big must a modification be to be considered original? d) If a trick is modified from a previous trick and did not gain permission wait an appropriate amount of time, can the original manufacturer produce the modified trick as his own? 2) When and how should we police ourselves? a) If the original creator does not step up and object, does anyone have the right to do it for him (without his permission?) b) Do you manufacture magic? 3) What are the ethics of misrepresenting the facts, intentionally, or unintentionally? a) What is the ethical way to approach someone you believe has broken "the code of ethics"? b) What are the ethics of someone who accuses another of an ethical slip without getting the facts? (This seems to happen a lot.) c) What are the ethics of a manufacture who leads people to believe that he originally created a trick when he knowingly did not create it? 4) What should be the ramifications? a) What should the ramifications be to someone who knowingly breaks the "code of ethics"? What is appropriate for them to do to get back in the good graces of the magic community? b) What should be the ramifications of someone who unknowingly breaks the "code of ethics" because they did not do their homework? What is appropriate for them to do to get back in the good graces of the magic community? I don't expect anyone to answer all the questions, but here are some good discussion points that are abstract so people should not get too "up in arms". Please do not use any "real life" examples. This is not for discussing "real life" examples. Posted: Sep 21, 2007 3:14pm I almost forgot a couple most important questions. 5) Is it ethical to duplicate an effect by different means? 6)Is the use of ordinary objects bound by ethics. Example: A "public domain" trick is marketed using a new material (that can be purchased by the public) - Is it ethical to reproduce this trick with the same material, or would that be unethical? |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Since you have a dog in this fight, I think you should realize that ultimately, this is about real life examples.
I can answer this fairly simply, though. If a performer has never marketed a trick, it is unethical to manufacture it without his permission. It is also unethical and probably illegal to put a performer's name on a product without the permission of him or his estate. Also, if a performer has died and someone manufactures items he described in his books, it would be unethical to sell them without permission from his estate, and probably should involve some kind of remuneration to the estate. If a company manufactures a trick that is either original or is based on a principle that some other trick has used and is manufacturing it with the permission of the originator of that principle, then, as long as it is in production, it is unethical to copy it. If it goes out of production and will never be produced again, and the originator is still alive, if he/she gives permission to manufacture it, then it would be ethical to do so. If a trick has existed for hundreds of years and someone comes up with a new design for a prop that does the trick, then it would be unethical for others to copy the new design without his permission, until a similar set of conditions such as those above have been met. If the original creator of an effect or routine is knocked off and doesn't know about it, two steps should be taken. First, the person who discovers this should inform the injured party to find out if permission has been given. I don't believe permission from the injured party is necessary before informing the person who knocked the effect off is told about it. If someone knowingly breaks the code of ethics, which by the way has been adopted by IBM, SAM and the Magic Circle of London, he should be forced to stop all sales and manufacture of the product, by legal action, if necessary, and should be caused to pay damages for lost sales. This won't happen, of course. The legitimate magic community should shun such manufacturers until they make good. Making good is in the eye of the injured party. If someone unknowingly breaks the code of ethics, they should apologize and cease manufacture. In either case, the goods should be forfeited to the person who owns the rights or the goods should be destroyed. In most cases, the goods will not be of a quality acceptable to the originator, anyway. At least that has been the case, historically speaking. If someone is a repeat offender, then the repercussions should be that they not be allowed to advertise in any of the magic magazines until all knockoff merchandise is eliminated from their catalog. Regarding the last two points. If an effect can be shown to be produced by a substantively different means, yet it appears to be the same from the audience's perspective, then it would be up to the individuals involved to settle the case between themselves. If the means is radically different, there shouldn't be too much of a problem. But if it is simply derivative, there will be a problem. If the new material is all that is different, but the method is essentially the same, it's the same trick. I am not currently a manufacturer. However, I have manufactured items in the past, and I may do so again in the future. I am involved in the magic publishing business. I was a working professional magician for 30+ years, and am now basically retired from professional performance. All of the above are simply my opinion, but they reflect the current view of many manufacturers. Regarding the duration of such limitations -- unless something is protected by copyright, that is, unless it is one of those things that has been strongly identified with a specific performer, it would be unethical to manufacture it without permission until such time that a copyright would have expired. Much of this kind of problem can be alleviated by research and asking for permission. Sometimes, it can't. That's when finding the trail of thought behind an invention is important.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Bill,
I like your practical approach. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
konjurer Veteran user Iowa 395 Posts |
This is an old thread but I hate to start a new one when the poster asked a lot of the same questions I have. My question is about submitting a trick for publication (not profit).
Let's say I learn a trick from a book or DVD. The effect was taught with no patter or premise. Over the course of time I come up with a substantial premise and patter. I also change the ending to make the trick much better (in my opinion). The set up is substantively changed and one sleight (which is original to me but probably just a variation of other sleights) is added to fix an awkward moment in the original. Is this trick substantially different enough to merit publication (assuming I give proper credit to the original which was actually credited from another creator)? Ultimately, the question is when is a card trick based upon another trick different enough to take some credit for a new trick. I think it passes most of Bill's criteria but I'm still not sure. Thanks!
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konjurer Veteran user Iowa 395 Posts |
I apologize in advance but I going to bump this thread once to see if someone has a thought on my question above.
Thanks
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
I believe that the improvements you have made, based on my reading of your post, change the effect enough that it would warrant publication by yourself, with credit given to the originator for inspiration.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I will provide a case in point, and see if that helps. I have a Sleight called a SwayOn that allows the showing of the same object in both hands without their ever touching. I have performed this for 30 years and used it to illustate a concept called Preemptive Doubt (original). This sleight is used in severaleffects in my eBooks. A frind refered me to a Jay Sanket Effect called "Mexican Hopping Coins" in which he uses a similar move even though the hands do touch called a Point Transfer that he credits to Tenkai, pointing out that he slid the coins acroos the palm as part of the sleight. Though I ehtically do not have to acknowledge their work which in no way contributed to my innovation, common sense says that I should mention the collateral uses. SInce mine is used in effects with objects other than coins I suggest that coin users look at Jay's effect the learn his False Count.
Ethics are morals placed in practice and you must decide "before the fact" how you will handle later discovery of simultaneous or prior discovery. As your effect is knowingly based on previous effect I believe appropriate credit is manditory, but permission is not if you modifications are substancial -- a matter of subjective appraisal. If you do not give credit it can be assumed that your intent was not ethical -- so, stay on the safe side.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
konjurer Veteran user Iowa 395 Posts |
Thanks!
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