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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
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On 2007-12-05 22:46, MMS wrote: Yes Jack but you still didn't answer my question regards " my agenda". You've mentioned an agenda twice now but won't explain what you mean. Yes I'm saving my voice so it's not lost again for my weekend shows. Besides why not discuss it here publicly? I have nothing to hide. I feel strong enough in my opinion to speak openly. Nobody is questioning Zig Zag, Sub Trunks and Thin Sawings. They are public domain now. They weren't always but they got knocked off so much that now they are. The issue of this thread is the Cube Zag. Can we stay on that topic? If you are saying that you have reinvented it and its a totally different illusion then why not take this opportunity to let us all know? This will prevent you from getting a reputation of a knockoff builder. Over a hundred illusions in one year? that's an awful lot of illusions. With all that work why bother building knockoffs of Cube Zag? Don't worry about finding time to reply. The Café is open 24 hrs. If you have time to take a call I'm sure you'll have time to post back into the thread. Best, Tim |
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
All,
I am a liitle confused here. What is public domain and who grants it? If too many people were knocking off the zig zag and it became public domain than isn't this the same? I have a unique subtrunk built years ago (the builder doesn't build anymore) but the performance is the same. Is it the concept that is the problem or the actual prop? Please let me know. Are we saying that since they are going to be knocked off so much that we are going straight to the public domain arguement? Has anyone talked to the originator of these illusions to see if they gave or didn't give permission? Just my question and 2 cents. BYUDAD |
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
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On 2007-12-05 23:25, BYUDAD wrote: BYUDAD, You ask an excellent question. Here is how things mostly become public domain. Lets use the Zig Zag as an example. Harbin publishes the book and with each purchase is the right to build one. Knockoff builders begin to knockoff both the book ( photocopied editions) but also the prop itself. Nobody makes much of a fuss and soon everyone is making knockoffs. Now there are so many knockoffs on the market that nobody buys the book anymore and Harbin gets screwed for making one of magics greatest illusions. Years go by and more and more are made and it becomes accepted that its perfectly ok to build one.... and now it is. This is what I am trying to prevent from happening to the origamis, interludes, compresseds, losanders..etc. Yes... I hear from people saying I'm making too much of a fuss but someone has to if we're going to protect other illusions from getting taken away from their creators as Zig Zag did. Best, Tim |
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asianmagic Regular user Philadelphia 130 Posts |
I've seen Kevin of Living Illusions at Creation Festivals proclaiming to be a Christian, but he sure doesn't behave that way here on the Magic Café. If you click on his name and review past posts, you'll see what a very argumentative fellow he is with a big chip on his shoulder. Not very Christlike at all.
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Asianmagic,
He without sin cast the first stone. Kevin is just passionate about his beliefs. Let's stay on topic here and not flick boogars at anyone and make it a personal attack. The only person that is Christlike is Christ. Religion, politics and knockoffs shouldn't be discussed. LOL! I may not agree with people stating their opinions but I never attack them and you shouldn't either. After all, your opinion of what is Christlike may differ greatly from anothers. What do I know though? Who am I to judge. Finally, haven't some of the worst things happened in the name of religion? i.e. the crusades, Salem, Spanish Inquisition, etc. Food for thought. BYUDAD |
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
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On 2007-12-06 01:57, BYUDAD wrote: Hooray BYUDAD!!!! How did religion get brought into this anyway?? Sound like misdirection doesn't it? LOL Thanks for making the " lets stay focused " point. Best, Tim |
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minnich_magic New user 40 Posts |
Back to the question: What is public domain and who grants it?
If the inventor manufactures his/her own illusion, or is protected by patent or trade secrets, or rights to manufacture are transferred to another mfr. by assignment agreement, license agreement; or exclusive use agreement to a performer(s), then it is not public domain. Except for the first circumstance, all of these situations have written agreements. It behooves all considering an illusion we have seen to contact the inventor/ manufacturer and inquire about the existing agreements. Saves a lot of grief, than to have thes documents shoved in the face in court. This due diligence may also be advantageous, as agreements expire, and this can only be known by contacting the persons, since published books do not contain up to date information on exclusive use, typically. Seems like the rational and ethical approach to me, at least. Tom Minnich |
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Magic1962 New user 57 Posts |
Tom, thanks for answering that question... now it gives a starting point on which to figure out whats public domain. I know there are so many years in which most things are covered under copy rite laws... but if the maker did/didnt do his/her do diligence you think they would post it with their plans, etc... Dave
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Magic Patrick Inner circle Minnesota 1591 Posts |
Tim,
Thanks for the clarification. BYUDAD |
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abercrombe New user 49 Posts |
Lets say we are at a comic book, movie memorbilia convention and someone is selling fake Disney or Warner Brothers items. Disney and Warner can have all the items confiscated, the vender arrested and everything he is selling good or bad impounded. They would go to that persons home and do the same. If the inventors of the illussions had that kind of power the magic shops wouldn't dare to carry the KOs and the builders would be looking at jail time. The laws of the land do not let you copy movies, music, clothing and many other things because of patents and copy rights. Patents and copy rights cost money and it would expose the workings of the effect to the general public. So we trust the magic community to be honest and fair but greed motivates the criminals to steal. Tim, keep on making all the noise you can and educating others on this thread. When we stop making a fuss, they win.
Abe |
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Christian Illusionist Special user Ohio (currently located in Missouri) 503 Posts |
Interesting to see that we are discussing the Zig Zag in regards to performance rights, building rights and the issue of what is or isn't public domain.
I've recently had several different conversations with various magicians and organizations concerning this very thing, with this very illusion. A fellow magician first sparked my curiosity when I read the following comment from him. Quote:
...I'll remind all who read this that the only people that have the rights to build and perform are the original purchasers of the Robert Harbin Book of Magic. Harbin worked very hard to protect his illusions and all of us who bought the book had to sign an agreement to that effect. Many feel that it is now in the public domain today. I don't and feel that it's a matter of ethics. Harbin created much powerful magic and tried hard to establish his proprietary rights. I contacted this particular magician and at that time, he thought that the rights might have been non-transferable with only the initial purchasers being granted rights to build and perform the contained illusions in, The Magic or Robert Harbin . With this in mind, I contacted the Magic Circle in England which now exclusively owns the copyright to, The Magic or Robert Harbin to ask them where things stood on the matter of rights and what the ethical approach would be. The President of the Magic Circle, Mr. Alan Shaxon sent me the following reply: Quote:
Dear Kyle The argument of what is and what is not public domain concerning the, Magic of Robert Harbin and other effects by various inventors will most likely be an on-going debate throughout magic. True, we cannot stop the unauthorized copies of the illusions of different inventors already in circulation, but we can each take the responsibility (as best as possible) upon ourselves to ask the builder if that particular company is authorized to build such an illusion before purchasing and/or to make sure rights are included when purchasing authorized verisions second-hand. From there it will be up to each one's individual standards what approach to take.
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.
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Swann101 Special user 558 Posts |
With the last post read, I am sure almost every second magician has an unauthorized zig zag in their store room, does that make it any different from a knock off origami??
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
I'll comment on the Zig Zag very soon but for now check out what the inventor of the Kub Zag had to say about Snaps Knockoff version when he saw it.
"My Mini Kub Zag is 27 years old and in the meantime copied all over the world. When I watch the picture I see a very primitive built copy to a very cheap price." G. Puchinger Best, Tim |
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M-Illusion Special user 549 Posts |
Seeing that they changed the name of the illusion on their site and put in the addition of "swords", they obviously think they are right in this situation. It's unfortunate, because I truly believe they were starting to have a good thing going for them. If I were them, I would remove that illusion from their offerings (not even to mention the questionable Modern Art and I suppose even to some extent, the Zig Zag) and make things right within the industry. I don't think it's too late for them to right their wrong, but they need to make it clear that they want to do business on the up and up.
I haven't purchased anything from them, but was planning on picking something up to check out the quality, turn around time, etc. The reason is that the majority of my illusions are custom and I wanted to check out their service prior to speaking with them about a custom illusion. However, seeing all of this now, I don't think I could trust them with something I would expect to be proprietary to me. How long would it be before I would see it on their site? Or even just them "sampling" bits and pieces from it? Just a few additional thoughts to this discussion. |
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
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On 2007-12-07 09:41, M-Illusion wrote: I think this is what surprised me the most about the knockoff. Lets be honest. Some of the illusions aren't the greatest. They are build from dated plans. Would I have recommended them??? YES! For the price I'd think they'd be a great opportunity for young beginners who wanted a larger illusion. Snap seemed to have a nice approach to the market. They were creating a bit of buzz and I'm sure were seeing some business. I doubt however that business is "great" or Jack would have not felt the need to branch out into ripoffs. You can't expect business to be great in the first year. That first year is very important because its the year you have the only chance to make a first impression in the market. This knockoff move soured that impression in my opinion. Best, Tim |
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Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
I've been involved in magic as a performer, builder, and dealer for many years, and still have no idea how an illusion becomes "public domain." The argument seems to be that if one person rips off an illusion, they're a thief, but if many people rip it off, then it's okay because now, magically, the illusion is in the public domain. Many have ripped off Origami and Steinmeyer has done everything he can to stop it. How many more have to be ripped off before it's in the public domain? This is clearly irrational.
Does the death of the creator mean everything they created is now in the public domain? Not in the real world... Walt Disney is gone, but Mickey Mouse is still a protected icon and the rights remain with the Disney corporation. The term "public domain" as used in this thread seems to put some legal concept into the mix. But very few magic effects are legally protected. This is really a matter of ethics. We should all ask ourselves: just because many other people helped themselves to an illusion, does that justify your doing so? Dennis Loomis A purchaser of the original Harbin Book.
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts |
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On 2007-12-07 10:29, Dennis Loomis wrote: Nice post Dennis. I agree that when more and more people begin to use knockoffs it creates an impression that's it alright. ( safety in numbers I guess )Thus the reason to raise a voice when you see a knockoff. I'd like to see the Harbin book back on the market so everyone who has a zig zag could buy one. It wouldn't fix the problem of knockoffs but it would surely be a step in the right direction for the Harbin estate. What a deal that book was... you got the rights for a cheap price. Its similar to the Modern Art book. For a few bucks you have the rights to a great illusion. There is no excuse to not have rights for that price. Best, Tim |
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Kendrix Loyal user 229 Posts |
I guess that Chevrolet, Chrysler, Toyota etc. better be paying Mr. Ford and his heirs for "knocking" off the car. At least that's the logic of some. There is as Dennis Loomis says little that be done on the legal front. I have had several inventions in my line of work copied and it's the price of doing business. One either has to accept it and keep ahead of the pack or keep things strictly to yourself.
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The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
I remember reading that after a 100 years an item becomes public domain unless that copyright is renewed.
The above could be all wrong. |
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Swann101 Special user 558 Posts |
I think in China copyright "expires" on things after a few years, but here we are talking international, so does that mean in China the Interlude for instance would become public domain after 10 years and not in the States or Europe, lets all move to China and problem solved! LOL.
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