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Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
The Basic Question:
Is it ethical to build and sell (on eBay) an effect that is described in a book? Specifics: While it is the same basic method and effect as described in the book, it does have my own take on the effect with slight changes in the way it is presented. No claim of originality as to the effect and method would be made. The author and the book from which it came would obviously be credited. The book is still in print. The author is deceased. Only one effect would be sold. Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
Let me clarify: It is just one effect that would be sold. One built after reading it from the book. And that one and only that one would be sold one time only. This is not a case of mass producing anything and selling multiple copies of the effect.
I will soon contact the publisher (since the author has passed away) and ask them how they feel about it. But I was curious as to how other magicians felt about this particular ethical issue.
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Are you talking about a prop, i.e., a Square Circle or Head Chopper, or something more like a card effect that requires a special gimmick?
Personally, I wouldn't sell any magic stuff on eBay. I know it happens, but I feel it cheapens magic by making it available to anyone who just happens to be browsing. I'd rather place an ad in a magic mag or take it to a magic club auction. Having said that, if you built a prop for your own use and then decided you didn't need it any longer, I'd say you can do whatever you want with it. Yes, I would definitely say this is the so-and-so from such-and-such a book, but I would much rather sell something like that in person at a magic club than post it in an ad. For me, it keeps the whole thing more up-front.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-09 17:00, George Ledo wrote: Prop with special gimmicks. Quote:
On 2007-12-09 17:00, George Ledo wrote: I appreciate your comment and concern, but I never bought into this argument. It assumes that laypeople are trolling e-Bay looking for magic, finding something, watching it, bidding on it, winning it, paying the money and then getting the effect just to learn the secrets. Nothing could be further from the truth. Only magicians seek out magic on e-Bay. Besides this prop is so unusual that no layperson would want it - only magicians, specifically bizarrists and mentalists. The same argument could be made that Brick & Mortar Magic Stores shouldn't be in business because they could make magic available to anyone who just happens to be driving or walking by. Quote:
On 2007-12-09 17:00, George Ledo wrote: Thanks! I'm still waiting to see if I should sell it, but I do appreciate your thoughts.
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-09 17:00, George Ledo wrote: I agree with this point of view completely. Well said!
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-12-09 17:19, Chris Henderson wrote: Well, that's not exactly the way I look at it. Right now most of us like to think that a magic effect should be perceived by an audience as just that: a guy doing something impossible. Selling something like this on eBay (whether or not "magicians" are the only ones who look there) basically says, "if you buy this prop you can do this effect." For me, that takes the "magic" out of the equation and turns the whole thing into just a specialized prop. Sure, magic shops do the same thing, but at least they usually package the thing as a magic effect. I always think it's sad to see a magic kit for sale in a toy department. Besides the fact that the stuff in them is usually junk (as in poorly made and with horrible instructions), it also gives buyers the impression that all magic is the same way. Now, if we ever get to the point where magic performers come across like they are going to do "the levitation" or "the sawing in half" in the same way that a theatre group does, say, The Sound of Music--i.e., as a standard piece that exists on its own and has been done before--then buying the effect on eBay will be no different than buying a copy of the script. But as long as magic performers come across like "I'm a magician and this is my magic," then I think that putting the stuff for sale in places like eBay conflicts with the message the performer is trying to deliver. But then again, what the heck, I'm an old fart from the old school.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
But what if you are looking for that rare discontinued item or out-of-print book? No magic stores (brick & mortar or online) has it or will likely ever have it. The guys at your local magic meeting don't have one, or the ones that have it won't part with it for any price. And then you find it on eBay! Are you saying you wouldn't buy it then? I have been in that very situation. And yes I bought it. And I am glad I did. Because the item I purchased simply can't be found anymore anywhere else.
For the most part, laymen don't even think about magic being for sale on eBay, let alone buying it off there. They think of eBay for things that they want to buy. And since they don't want to buy magic, the thought that there might be magic on eBay never even crosses their mind.
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Well, like I said, I'm an old fart from the old school. eBay is a perfectly legitimate place to buy stuff, and, for people who've grown up with it, it's fantastic. I just wish we had a more "magical" place to buy those discontinued items or out-of-print books.
On the other hand, maybe buying magic on eBay and similar places will eventually turn the idea of "I'm a magician and I'm going to do something magical" into "I'm a magician and I'm going to perform the good ol' levitation." What the heck, theater groups and musicians do this all the time and the public doesn't think anything less of the art form or of the performers because of it.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
Thanks for your thoughts George. Aside from the eBay angle, what about the main aspect of my question: Is it ethical to sell one effect that I built after reading about it in a book? I can't ask the author, as he is deceased.
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Chris, given the awkward provenance of so many items around here it would be much more efficient to get an answer by seeking out the local experts in the field (whatever your product might be) to get a contextually pertinent opinion via private message.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
Thanks Jonathan. I contacted the publisher personally. He was very nice and said that since it was one personally built effect, he had no problem with me selling the one copy.
The ironic thing is, all my efforts in searching for an answer regarding this, has given me second thoughts on selling it. I have sold far too many magic items in the past, only to regret it, sometimes years later. Even though I really don't use this anymore, I do like it and may just keep it, but just put it in storage.
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
enginemagic Special user Bluffton Indiana 597 Posts |
It wouldnt be wrong if you labled the making the item part of it your handy work only,not the idea, like some one building a common storage shed,utility trailer,or a chair & table to sell it for anny one to use.
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
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Chris Henderson Special user Indiana -- Anyone w/ no life would have 563 Posts |
My idea was always to advertise it as what book it was from, crediting the author for the original effect and noting it was a one-of-a-kind custom built effect from that book. Most knowledgeable magicians -- and especially mentalists -- would know right away where it originated from.
I also asked permission from the publisher to include his permission should I ever sell it, so any potential buyer would know they are not infringing on any intellectual rights and would feel good about buying it. At this point, I am still holding on to it. But it was good to find out the answer to this particular ethical issue.
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief"
--Gerry Spence |
enginemagic Special user Bluffton Indiana 597 Posts |
I can relate to Chris Henderson on what he said , I usually give credit to the inventor for the trick or illusion that I perform for my freinds.
I had a experience back in 1990 at my shop with 2 curved brake pads from a Gravely tractor that one looked shorter when placed above the other sound like a familiar magic trick? ,and in 2007 I came across the Jastrow effect or boomerang trick, I could of tryed to market that illusion when I discovered it, but didn't think it was worthly of it. now I know that jastrow discovered it and made it a magic effect. What is funny is that 2 different minds can come up with a simular idea with not knowing theres another idea like that being thought of until you see the others idea show up in the media. just like my wheeled walk behind string trimmer I invented back in 1980 then in 1991 seen a ad in a magazine by a company called D&R Corp advertising an identical machine (in operation using wheels,and a striing cutting system that is)Called "the trimmer mower" A freind in NY told me about a coin trick he developed that he had the same thing happen to him,He discovered later showed up in the media as "3 fly". "you snooze you loose" as they say , my trouble was it takes a lot of $$$$$ to patent a invention so I "snoozed because I was poor" LOL Chuck
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
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