Hi All

Hope many of you are in the sun and making great hats...

I have 2 questions.... Now that the great performer / Historian Bob Read has passed- does any one know a close /approx of exactly how old the cups & balls trick is? Could it be European (England/France) in orign ?

Question #2 Has any one who performs the Cups & Balls confronted the issue of Pouch height in relation to Table Top height...? While the basis of the effect is indeed strong misdirection - I'm still curious to know if anyone who has studied with Chillini /Gazzo has this issue has been brought up in the there teachings ?


Appreciate any thoughts

warlock1

#1 There's a lot of history out there, and Bob Read's book should materialize at some point. . . might I suggest you talk to Bill Palmer.

#2 Gazzo busted me a lot because my table was too tall, that is. . . was taller than the top of my bag. It's all in the misdirection. It doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be above the top of your bag.

#3 It's spelled Cellini.

Gazzo busted me on table height too. You have to remember though, that some of us are taller than he is. I lowered my table, but then raised it slightly when my back started hurting. It's still at or below pouch height though. The people know you're wearing the pouch. In fact, they watch you take things in and out of it throughout the routine. As Mark and others know, every move in and out of the pouch is justified so the pouch doesn't have to be out of sight to be effective.

I use the cups and balls in my street show but I never where a pouch it is always attached to my table so I can still perform all the final loads includeing a lemmon or coconut basketball from under my hat IMOi find this a lot esier and most of the time specs are asking me where I got the loads from I use a little b;ack art so the pouch don't look deep so when thay come behind me and see the table thay assume that all that stuff would not be able to fit in the pouch

I use the cups and balls in my street show but I never where a pouch it is always attached to my table so I can still perform all the final loads includeing a lemmon or coconut basketball from under my hat IMOi find this a lot esier and most of the time specs are asking me where I got the loads from I use a little b;ack art so the pouch don't look deep so when thay come behind me and see the table thay assume that all that stuff would not be able to fit in the pouch

For the best angle proofing, the top of the pouch should be just under the table height.

That allows the loads, which are lifted out of the pouch, to be pushed up into the cup without the cup being dipped down. In other words, have the pouch at a level where you swing the cup from right hand to left, loading with the left and then grasping the cup and holding the load and cup must look like it was simply passed from right hand to left while the right hand picks something up (wand, orange, ball or something) and the left comes stright forward to the table - loaded and ready to reveal.

I video everything I do, and even after attending Gazzo's Master Class, keeping the cup on a level plane, not dipping it to load etc, was one of the hardest issues for me to get consistent with. But by catching myself on video, I was able to break myself before it became a habit.

The Doctor

Common Guys 121 VIEWS & ONLY 5 replys !!!!

Whats up ?...... this is a Valid Question ,

has Any one out there confronted the Issue of Pouch height in relation to Table top height.

Many of the Classic drawings depicting the C& B in performance show the Pouch a touch higher than the table top surface. While this is much more comfortable..... Im still wondering if any one who has taken Gazzo's class has had to confront this issue ?

appreciate any feedback


warlock1

Warlock,

Three people (myself, Dave and DoctorCognos), who responded above have worked with Gazzo. Not only did I take his class, but I hosted one. I'm sure there are stories out there. Paddy, who posts around here, was there. It was a blast . . . and not (but that's a story for another time and has nothing to do with Gazzo and everything to do with some of the students). Anyway, they were small classes and there weren't that many students in each one, so there aren't going to be that many people that can answer you.

The Doctor had a great point about not dipping the cup out of sight. It's so important it bears repeating. . . DO NOT LET THE CUP DIP OUT OF THE SPECTATORS SIGHT! That is why, unless you really work on it (with a mirror or with video which it sounds like The Doctor has done) you don't want your table top above the top of your bag.

I've built 7 performing tables; not a lot, but each one has been quality...and each better than the previous IMHO.

My first was WAY too high, the second was built on top of a heavy duty camera tripod with adjustable height. The rest have been fixed heights.

My final conclussion is not based on pouch height any more (although it is always a consideration).

My table height is based on my rest position. I don't want to be at rest (while holding out) and looking guilty. This height is near pouch height...but honestly I'm thinking more about dealing a card, doing a coin matrix, and resting my hands on the thing.

If the table is below the pouch, you can sorta squat while doing your loads. I've watched many of the greats on DVD get into what I'd consider to be a modified Fighting Stance (martial arts lingo) for their final load sequence...which means that they can adjust their height an inch or 3 without any problem.

I've gotten into the habit of standing with one foot sleightly back all the time...it keeps me from being stagnant at my table. With one foot back, I'm more prepared to get out from behind the table and play with the audience more during a routine. I'll try and find a pick that I'm thinking of...I've talked too much here as is.

Here's a pic from the same day my avatar pic was taken...they're the only busking pics I have!

Hope you're appeased a bit more Warlock. I'm not a full time busker, but I tried to help the thread!

Click here to view attached image.

Hi Chad, M.Raven, Dvanvranken & all others....

As some one who has performed the C&Balls for Many Years , (& Consider it to be My All time favorite routine for Many reasons)

It is nice to be able to come to the Café to ask questions....as magicians many of us are Guility of 'Over Thinking", (YES! Im Guilty) not so much trying to improve, although not a bad thing either... Vernon indeed expressed his feelings & in all honesty who are we to argue w/ the late "Professor' re. trying to improve.

I have seen many performers Jump on the Busking bandwagon Not a bad thing in the 'right hands' But in this age of Instant gratification ie. purchasing DVDs, the internet, Its sad that so many choose to ignore some of the simple /direct rules of Conjuring.

This performing thing simply takes so much hard work that I find it Truly Amazing that anyone would want to take on something as demanding as the C&Balls especially attempting to end with a hat load, sokmething that IS much harder than it seems !

I appreciate all that have had there say re. this post.

Below are some thoughts , Hope they are food for thought.....................

Personally I have found that the pouch is something that HAS TO be worn from beginning to end of the act ......Other wise it will be questioned.

The Pouch is like a Stage maniplators table .... w/ all the comings & goings to & from it thru out the act ....... In the words of Marvin Roy & the late Tony Marks
'After awhile the table / pouch becoms invisible"
Unless it is dyed Red or Lime Green in color w/ pretty laces
( I have seen Both )

Personal experience has taught me that your hands should be able to rest confortably on the table top.

Proper position for the pouch to be worn in ,Is is to have the finger tips just touching the botton of the inside, this way evertthing within it is easly found & grasped.

I have also seen many performers use tray stand/folding legs use them right from the store ...This is somthing to be questioned , as everyone is of a different height, so what I have seen done is to cut off the 2 cross straps on the tray legs & Replace them w/ a simple leather strap that can be adjusted to your desired height.

Idealy the pouch lip/opening should be no more than 3 to 4 inches from the tables surface, this way you are not breaking your back by hunching over & can still easly get in & out of the pouch to place props on table etc ...

Re. loading.... As long as the cup does not go out of sight YOU CAN have the pouch lip somewhat higher than your table top surface.

I have also seen some Guys With BIG Bellys wear pouches that were almost hanging down to there Thighs ...not good and Most Amusing !!! ...This is certinally NOT the way or place to acquire loads. If you are overweight - Try side pouches.

Chad has the right idea,.... I have yet to see a performer not adjust there stance when going into the Finale of the C& balls,...... Gazzo Included ! ...if the misdirection is strong & you are "hitten em with the excitement of the moment " they should never suspect .....Let alone detect any final loads.

While this is certinaly not complete , I trust it will be of help to those who are
Guilty of sometimes ... "Overthinking'


Best to all
warlock1

Warlock says "Personally I have found that the pouch is something that HAS TO be worn from beginning to end of the act ......Other wise it will be questioned.

The Pouch is like a Stage maniplators table .... w/ all the comings & goings to & from it thru out the act ....... In the words of Marvin Roy & the late Tony Marks
'After awhile the table / pouch becoms invisible"
Unless it is dyed Red or Lime Green in color w/ pretty laces"

Sorry but I disagree. I was in Gazzo's Masterclass and he brought up that very thing. He carries 6 oranges and a melon in his, and like he says, "IT'S D$%# HEAVY!" So he has it next to his table and then lifts it up and puts it on just as he starts the C & B routine. No one notices and they staill drop their mothes open when he drops the melon out of his hat.

I do agree that I wear my pouch just below the table height.

Peter

Hey Paddy ,

Appreciate your feedback.......

Yes I agree the Pouch when loaded is %^&$ HEAVY !!

Still Im wondering if Gaz is not trying to pull a fast one , I have seen Gaz - Live at many festivals , on film & on DVD for over 20 years & I have yet to see him not do the act NOT wearing the pouch from beginning to end.... a full 45 minute show.
.Possibly things have changed since his stroke, I agree the weight of the thing will get to ya after awhile.

warlock1

When I did the Merlin show, I wore my pouches (I used a double set) all day long. They were an integral part of my costume. The upper edge of the pouch was somewhere between the top edge of the table top and the bottom edge of the table top.

The bottom of the pouch was located exactly at my fingertips. This enabled me to pivot my hand into the pouch, snag a load and get it back into the cup without causing any kind of ruckus amongst the gilpins.

Re Gazzo:

In all his recent work, he has waited until he was about to go into the cups and balls to "saddle up" so to speak. If you look at his performances on his recent busking DVD's, that's the way he's working now.

These were all made after his stroke.

1) I believe the Seneca the Elder, the Roman rhetorician and writer, c.60 B.C.-c.A.D. 37 is the first documented reference to the Cups and Balls, but it (no doubt) goes back much further...

2) My gibicere is just about the same height as the lip of my table (just under waist height), maybe an inch or three below it- less if I hike up the belt, which I sometimes do when I feel like it. There's no hard set rule. I use Frank Starsini's pouch, which is a bit smaller than Gazzo's; also, the mouth cinches up so I move it to my hip for my show before I get to the C&B finale and it looks like any other smallish bag a performer might have on a belt.

hope this helps.

It's kind of strange that you wouldn't know that the cups and balls are referenced in Greco-Roman literature.

Certainly it was performed in France and England, but it goes back much further than that.

The question of whether a pouch is to be worn throughout the whole of a street performance is surely dependent on the nature of the show. For a lot of street workers movement and interaction are vital elements of the work to be done and thus a loaded pouch worn from start to end is not helpful.

I would think that the only exception to this is as Bill suggests when the pouch is an integral part of an outfit or costume and as a consequences adds to a role.