The weight or density of a silk is often designated by the momme. Is this the equivalent of thread count? Is there a simple way one can tell if he has a five or three or other momme silk?

Richard?
Bob?

Momme is a measure of weight and doesn't really have anything to do with thread count. In fact, I believe momme is also used for pearls. For silk, it's the weight in pounds for 100 yards long by 45 inches wide. So if you have 100 yards by 45 inches of silk that weighs 8 pounds, you've got 8 momme silk.
I know that doesn't help us consumers much, since it's usually just the dealers that weigh that much silk. I don't want to hurt my brain by trying to convert that down right now, so hopefully Bob or Richard or somebody will chime in with a conversion.

I can usually guess fairly close using sight and touch.

Visual inspection is still the best indicator of quality. Momme is just a weight measure. It has nothing to do the quality, weave, opaqueness, etc.

You would never want to buy just any diamond by weight. Most are not very good and only useful for grit in cutting, grinding and polishing. Buying silk by weight is not much smarter.

Think of a t-shirt and a pair of gym socks that weigh the same thing. Frankly, it is rather useless information.

There is one thing that does apply to magic. That may relate to load space required for silk. Thus, 8 momme silk should require 160% of the load space that 5 momme would need. That says 5 momme silk should take 62.5% the load space 8 momme silk takes. Given this, an 18" square 8 momme silk would take the space of a 24" square 5 momme silk. This assumes that the bulk is relative. The only difference the audience sees is size.,

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

PS --- If you were dying the silk momme would matter. The higher the momme weight the more weight of dye it would take. In practice, more dye is trashed than used.

Dyeing the silk does matter with momme. If the silk is properly prepared the dye is properly mixed, the amount of dye adsorbed into the fibers is based on a weight basis. The higher the momme weight the more dye can be adsorbed. This results in a deeper appearance of color or more saturation. Dye concentrations are mixed on weight of the dry materials in most cases.

FCCP, as for knowing the momme weight it is hard to tell. I doubt is any of our silks are 3 mm. They are not readily imported into the country because of the flamebility of them. I would venture to guess that your silk fountain in 5 momme if you got it from Duane.

Richard

My momme always wears polyester.

I only posted that so that I could lay title to the stupidest pun on the entire Internet. Yay me!

Thank you all for the info. I did not know what Momme actually meant. (we will ignore Honus' comment )

Since I am not looking to dye silks, what should I be looking for when I buy them?

To me, the type of silks I use depends on the routine I will be using them in. Sometimes I need lighter silks when load space is minimal (as Bob mentioned above). I also like to use lighter silks in a couple of my routines where the silks fly up. The lighter ones fall slower and float better.

When I can use them, I prefer heavier silks because they seem to wrinkle less and look better. I always thought the heavier silks were a little more opaque than lighter silks, but according to Bob's statement above I may have been wrong. (There's a first time for everything!) My heavier silks seem more opaque, but who am I to disagree with a silk expert like Master Bob! This isn't the first time I have learned anything from him, that's for sure!

When I say heavy, I am meaning 8 momme. To me, lighter silks would be 5-6 momme. I really don't want anything less than 5 momme. I don't know anyone that sells anything less than 5 momme, but even if I did I would not buy it. I have some very light silks (I would guesstimate about 3 momme) that came with a few magic effects I have bought down through the years. I have never used any of them in a show. I might practice with them, but they get replaced with heavier silks when it's showtime!

Regan

Thanks Regan.
I am still left with a question, how can I tell?

Any reputable dealer will tell you what momme silks they sell.
For example, all solid color Silk King Studios (Rice's silks) are 6 momme.
Compare others to one for which you know the exact momme and you'll get an idea of the momme of the silk in question.

As Ruth said, get one that is a known weight, and then compare. I can easily tell the 8 momme by look and feel. 8 is quite different than 5-6 momme. I can usually tell the difference between a 5 and 6 momme silk too, although it is subtle in most cases. The 3 momme silks are very easy to spot to.

It's not difficult, but you will need a starting point. Most reputable dealers will tell you what type of silks they sell. If it's not advertised, just ask and they will tell you.

Regan

Regan,

Silk from the importer should be clearly labeled. It should have country of origin and momme plus 100% silk if that is what it is. (Not all "silk" is! Rayon is frequently a fibre in some "silks".)

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander

What I am hearing (?) from Ruth & Reagan is that you have to start with known pieces and learn the look & feel to distinguish between them.

When I make a steak I can determine the degree of doneness (is that a word?) by touching the steak. I am feeling how much give there is. I was shown how to do this many years ago by a chief and over time developed the "feel". I guess this is pretty much the same.

Thank you all for your help on this question.

That's how I learned. As Bob stated, there are different blends of fabric that can throw you. I have some silks that are heavy, around 8 momme, but they are fairly opaque....more opaque than other 8 momme silks that I have. I suspect they may be blended with some of those rayon fibres Bob mentioned.

Good luck! That sounds like a fun way to learn the degree of steak 'doneness'!

Regan

A simple measure of momme is 4.5 grams per square yard............Sree

This is true. It is purely a measure of weight (mass).

The standards changed in 1891. It has nothing to do with quality. Think of a knit wool sweater and a high quality man's wool suit coat. We can add mass by adding "fluff" (loose weave) in a sweater or harder and tighter weave in mens suiting. Tighter weave would seem to offer better wear life. Of course, the greater the mass the greater the surface available to color regardless of quality (especially desired for graphics).

Although mass is not a factor for the speed of a falling object, it is a factor for lift! Lighter momme silks float better because of better lift numbers. Likewise, 8 momme silk simply takes 160% of the space of 5 momme silk. Neither is very opaque.

As for cost differences, for magicians' uses, good hems cost about the same as the silk. There is very little difference in the cost of 5 and 8 momme silk of the same quality. Allowing for quality differences, higher momme can even be cheaper than lighter momme. (Of course, air freight costs for 8 momme silk is 160% of the air freight costs for 5 momme silk.) Sewing 5 momme silk can cost the same as sewing 8 momme silk. Yet the general rule is that the higher the momme, the lower the skill requirement for those sewing.

Perhaps the best advice to help magicians judge the quality of silks for magic are:

* Uniformity of weave
* Uniformity and stability of dye job
* Straightness and quality of hems and squareness of corners
* Square silks should indeed be square.
* Good silk has good "memory" and springs back well when it is released from compression.

China silk was not legally available in the USA for much of the last century. Therefore, Japanese silk was what was essentially available to magicians. Today China silk is not rare in Japan and is used by top professional magicians there!

Bob Sanders
Magic By Sander