Should I get Erdnase?---No, it's crap!Get Card College.No matter how much rave reviews This book gets(even if Dai Vernon knew it inside out), it still sucks.I was really dissapointed when I got this book.But this is not the only one-"classics" like Sach's Sleight of Hand,Hoffmann Trilogy left me wanting.Of the classic rather go for Greater Magic, Art of Magic and Tarbell-These on the other hand was/is brilliant.

Just my opinion.
AJ

Andre,

I am astonished at your sensitivity and demonstrative certainty. Thank you for sharing your well-written and insightful posting. I'm tingling all over, just knowing someone with your depth of knowledge is here, at the Café, to help us unfold the wonders of card magic.

Thank you for your posting.

I have a list of a bunch of other books I'm certain you would find wanting. What other books should I steer away from? I'd hate to spend money on a book and be disappointed.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I've been watching this thread for a while and I think it's interesting that the Erdnase detractors are typically unable to communicate why they dislike it other than they found it difficult. "It sucks" is hardly a valid critique. "Slow and boring" sounds like the reader is a bit slow to me. Erlandish came the closest by actually trying to give reasons but, unfortunately, they were ambiguous and unclear leaving some of us with the opinion that he doesn't understand Erdnase or what can be had from the material.

I don't want to answer the question "should I get Erdnase" but somebody needs to lay out some solid reasons for and against buying and reading the book. I'm gonna lay out my reasons for each side. I hope, that future posters can add reasons for and against so that the next guy that reads this can make an informed decision for himself.

Reasons for buying Erdnase:
Erdnase is cheap - this is book that you can buy brand new and shipped for under $10, I picked up a used copy for $2.

Erdnase contains excellent lessons on polished card handling. You can learn how to handle cards a number of places but Erdnase expects no prior knowledge and if you follow his advice you will be handling the cards like an expert in no time. I'm not talking about doing sleights I'm just talking about holding the cards, cutting, dealing, and anything else that involves just working with the cards. This is valuable because most card tricks involve some handling of the cards and clumsy card handling just slows things down and, unless that is specific to your character, detracts from the effect. Many card sleights that you learn from other sources will be made easier if you already handle the cards in accordance with Erdnase. Here's an example: before I read Erdnase I had a hard time with sleights that started from a "mechanics grip" because I misunderstand the exact placement of the fingers and how that allowed the cards to work.

Erdnase also contains some excellent and valuable sleights with cards. This is the crux of most peoples arguments about Erdnase, "do I need to learn the sleights from Erdnase?" and the answer to that is no. While the sleights themselves are excellent and the writing is clear enough to learn them, the illustrations are somewhat lacking and the most used sleights can be learned elsewhere. Unfortunately, there are lots of sources that do a worse job of teaching Erdnase's moves and some even teach them incorrectly. The most recent and glaring example is the Magic Makers DVD about Erdnase. Consequently, I think it is safest to work through the moves from Erdnase or, at least, compare any alternate source to the original. However, as many folks have said, you can do fine magic without ever doing a sleight learned from Erdnase.

Erdnase teaches you how to do sleight of hand. This, in my opinion, is the single biggest reason to read Erdnase cover to cover without stopping to learn any of the sleights. Even if you choose to never learn a trick or a move from this book, reading through it and applying the lessons will improve you sleight of hand technique. Erdnase explains to you why some sleights can withstand close scrutiny while others can be detected from across the room and how to make an obvious one more invisible. If you just read through and pay attention to his critiques of some techniques and his praise of others it will help you to understand why one is better than the other. This will also help you recognize flawed techniques that other people are teaching so that you can avoid wasting your time on them.

Erdnase teaches you how to create magic. This is commonly referred to as magic theory. Why does one card trick fall flat, while another elicit a response? How can the same card trick be perceived as clever sleight of hand in one performance but an impossible miracle in another? Erdnase has his answers to these questions not as well argued as the answers in Strong Magic or Fitzkee but his answers are there. There are a lot of different theories about how to create magic for your audience out there but the Erdnase school is distinct and has been utilized by a lot of performers over the years. - Earlier Erlandish pointed out that Whit Hayden disliked Erdnase and, while this isn't true, he did eschew Erdnase's advice about how to handle one's self at the card table. This advice was given to the prospective card cheat and I think it has been misapplied to magic performances too many times.-

Erdnase is the standard by which others may be judged. Erdnase is terse and short on illustrations but it is clear and extremely well written. Beyond that, most of the sleights are designed to be imperceptible and the tricks are well constructed and well thought out. Why do some people hate certain books and love other books? If all the books have tricks, shouldn't we love all books? and should we love all tricks? I believe that anything that can compare favorably to Erdnase, such as Card College, can be considered excellent and anything else is, in my opinion, substandard.

Reasons against buying Erdnase:

You might not read it. I bought Mickey MacDougall's Card Mastery which included the complete text of Expert at the Card Table when I was 14. It sat on my shelf for years, only getting the occasional perusal before I tried to learn something out of it and then it wasn't until years later that I read the complete text of Erdnase. However, it's a small investment to have it handy for when you decide to actually read it.

You don't need Erdnase. This is true, while much of card magic is founded on the lessons of Erdnase you don't have to get them directly from this book. However, having the book handy for comparison may prove valuable if some "expert's" explanation of an Erdnase move is unclear.

It is hard to read This is one of the arguments that annoys me the most because, for a technical book, it isn't that tough. Unfortunately, more pictures would have broken up the text a little more and made some things clearer but the reading level of this book is not very high. If you just read it cover to cover and don't stop to get caught up in the sleights or tricks, you will find it's about the same level as a high school history book. If this book really is too hard for you then I doubt you'll be able to learn any other technical skill from the written word. I am not a smart guy, you can ask my friends, but I regularly have to update my skill set using technical books and I credit reading magic books in high school for gaining that skill. Reading for comprehension may seem hard at first but it's a skill that, like the muscle pass, you just do it and it gets easier and easier. Eventually, you realize that it's easier to learn from a book than sit through a boring explanation on DVD.

The tricks are too old fashioned This is true, the tricks are not as flashy as some of the stuff that has come out in the last 30 years. However, the tricks still play well and his patter, as written, is better than you'll find at most magic performances. Even if you never do the tricks as written, they are worth studying and can be modernized.

As you can see, I'm a proponent of Erdnase. I should say that in order to decide if you need Erdnase or not you need to decide what kind of magician you want to be. If you want to learn tricks and spend your life imitating whatever you find on DVD then don't bother with Erdnase, it's a waste of your time. There are plenty of people that spent their life performing good tricks and any deeper understanding of magic came from years of performance. However, students of magic, people that want to accelerate their understanding will want to read Erdnase once through as early as possible. It will accelerate your understanding of sleight of hand, of performance, and give you tools with which you can create your own effects.

I recommend reading it once through and marking the things of interest but continuing on to the end. Then, after you've read it once, either go back to the parts of interest and study them more thoroughly or put it on the shelf for a year or two. It's one of those books that holds more each time you read it. I'm afraid I don't follow my own advice very well but if you set it aside, perform for people, read other books or watch DVDs and then come back to it months or years later, you'll find new treats to discover within the pages and a greater ability to understand why and how performance works.

I hope this helps,

Dave

Leather bound, the "bible" edition of this book can now be found for $15.00 and "free" shipping on orders over $25 at:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0974255......i=507846

:magicrabbit:

My first trip to a magic store yielded one of the Ammar Easy to Master DVD's with McDonalds Aces and the salesman suggested Erdnase as a MUST HAVE for anyone entering card magic! I was so jazzed by the Ammar vid that I jumped right into EaTCT and I'll admit it was way over my head at the time but I persevered even though it made little sense at the time. I still muddle through at times but I have to say that I find it a valuable text and refer to it constantly!
My suggestion to anyone wanting to truly study the art is to find one of these pro's that HAVE studied Erdnase and/or the other classics and send them a PM asking for guidance but be willing to LISTEN to what they have to offer! Don't "yeah but" or argue, just take thier valuable advise and get to work!

Mick

Dave,

That was easily the best post in this thread. Thanks. For the naysayers, you can look at it like this; It's not the moves, or the tricks that make the book great. It's the philosophies behind the effects and moves that are important. These philosophies can and do apply to all branches of magic. Whether it's coins, cards, stage etc. Take, for example, the fact that Erdnase talk about uniformity of action. Does this not apply to other branches of magic as well? Of course it does. This was why I originally made the argument that any practitioner of magic can benefit from the principles laid out in Erdnase.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell

Thanks for the props, Dorian. Since I came a little late to the party, I hope that the chias and others who question the value of Erdnase get a chance to read it.

Dave

A couple of days ago, I found a brand new, obviously never even been cracked open, copy of Erdnase in a used book store in Toronto for the princely sum of $3.00!! I, of course, happily snapped it up. It will nicely replace the few sections I printed out from the LPP some time back. Yes some of the stuff is beyond me, but I keep reading and trying....



Sean

LOL, No worries as erlandfish's silly rants are no more. He is "gone" from the Café.

In my experience I found Erdnase had brilliant ideas, but was not so good at explaining them. It kind of turned me off to cards for a while.
RRtCM is rekindling that interest a little.
My bro, on the other hand, took to Erdnase like a duck to water. So I guess it kind of depends on the dude.
I wish I'd have gotten RRtCM before Erdnase. Then I might be as polished with cards as I am with coins by now.