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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
Tommy you keep thinking along a false dichotomy. Clever Vs Stupid. If Dai Vernon was being intelligent as you see it he was clever. The proper dichotomy in my opinion is Clever vs Simple.
You can perform a routine in a simple way that says.." WoW look at this magic thing that happens when I get my hands on cards!" or you can perform it in a way that says.." Wow look at all the wonderful things I can do that you cannot." You can do the former intelligently. You can do the latter intelligently. The point is, when you aim for simplicity, it is not about showing off what you can do. I think what Whit was saying is What is your motivation for performing? Is it to stroke your own ego? Or to give the Audience a magical experience. If it is the former, then you will try to show off how clever you are. If it is the latter then you will not care whether or not you look clever. You will select sleights and performance, not because of how they make you look, but because they happen to be the simplest sleight that does the job of giving you the biggest bang under those circumstances...to sell the effect to the audience for their enjoyment. One can BE Clever while performing in a simple manner, or one can BE Clever, and only perform in a manner that shows off cleverness. I think the former is about bringing a magical experience to everyone that everyone can share and enjoy. The latter is just showing off to gain approval, or to express superiority. Neither sits well with me. I guess " Leave your ego at the door." sums up a good attitude to have about it. One can BE Clever, and still not perform in a way that shows of how Clever you are. There is a difference, and yes... Dai Vernon WAS Clever.... but when he performed he never showed it. He made everything he did look easy...it looked like it was happening by itself, and it just happened to be happening in his hands... what can be more magical than that?
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Odd I thought, that the man known as “The Professor” who billed himself as “The Man who Fooled Houdini” didn’t do tricks to make himself seem clever. Odd I thought because it seems at odds. The Professor who Fooled the Great Houdini seems as to publicize and advertise cleverness don’t you think?
I ask in the spirit of enquiry as I do not know, since I am not clever; Is that bad logic? Given we should not do tricks to make ourselves seem clever, do you think in spite of that there isn’t anything wrong in billing ourselves as clever? I think, for what its worth, there is nothing wrong about billing oneself as “clever” : 1. mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able. 2. superficially skillful, witty, or original in character or construction; facile: It was an amusing, clever play, but of no lasting value. 3. showing inventiveness or originality; ingenious: His clever device was the first to solve the problem. 4. adroit with the hands or body; dexterous or nimble. 5. Older Use. a. suitable; convenient; satisfactory. b. good-natured. c. handsome. d. in good health. With the exception of “2” above, a poster that gave the impression that the magician was all of that would be quite good. At the same time it seems to conflict with Vernon’s advice that I agree with. It’s all a bit confusing for me you see. PS clarissa Sorry I did not notice you had posted before I posted this. I will read it now thanks.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Jfquakenbush, it's funny you would talk about the twins this way. I had a similar reaction when they came on the scene.
I was at one of the first Las Vegas conventions where they were going around displaying their stuff. A few guys ask me if I had seen them and what I thought. I would usually say, "Oh, it's those guys were the cards move and they don't." Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
“The Professor” who billed himself as “The Man who Fooled Houdini”
I don't think, and I could be wrong, that he billed himself as that. From what I've read of the incident, which is very little, it was his peers that gave him the title. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I think it boils down to "What are you asking for, from your audience?" What is the engagement you seek?
And if it turns out all you want from them is their approval, there are better and more artistic ways to go about getting it than just asking for it. |
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jfquackenbush Special user Out here on the desert 607 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-13 08:33, Greg Arce wrote: That's a really good way of putting it. To be honest I don't really know what to make of their act. It's like the exact opposite of card sharking, where a guy with a poker face does all sorts of normal looking stuff for apparently normal reasons to get an astonishing end result. In the buck twins case it's a couple of guys with poker faces doing a bunch of weird looking stuff to get the mundane end result of holding a deck of cards afterwards. It might work as modern dance, but I don't often care for their music enough to credit that, and there's no real interaction between the movement and the music.
Mr. Quackenbush believes that there is no such thing as a good magic trick.
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Magicray69 Veteran user Tampa Bay 369 Posts |
Vernon had a 'magical' charisma whether he was doing magic or not. It boils down to an individual's personality. If you are arrogant, then it shows when you are doing magic or ordering a cheeseburger. It pays to treat the spectators with respect, as though you think they are smarter than you are and the magic is just 'happening'. Act surprised when the magic happens and you will be on the same level as they are. Your audience must not only like your magic, they must like you.
There was a time I had the blues,
the reason was I had no shoes. Until I met upon the street a man who had no feet. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
"There was a time I had the blues,
the reason was I had no shoes. Until I met upon the street a man who had no feet." "And then I thought, I bet he has a pair of shoes he might sell me cheap..." --Rich Marotta |
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The Great Dave Loyal user My Wife said "It's Me or that Stupid Magic Website!" this many times. 205 Posts |
In the Siegfried and Roy autobiography, there is a comment made that "People don't like to be fooled." The concept is that when you are doing Magic, it needs to follow their axiom that "Anything is possible with Magic." So, if you don't embody the Magic element into your presentation, then you are playing the role of the trickster and the audience knows they are being set up to be fooled. The sour outcome is set even before the effect being presented has a chance to unfold itself.
I see this all the time when I offer a deck of fanned cards and ask the spectator to choose one. Immediately, some of them try to trick me by searching for a card that is at the end of the fan or covered by some other card or in some way not as obvious as the other cards. They know they are about to be fooled, tricked, and shammed, and what they want to do is trip me up so they can spoil the fun and come out the clever trickster themselves. My sister did this to me when I was very young. I had a magic clock that I could tell the time on after it was set by a spectator and the cover was closed. I tried it on her, and she took the clock from me. She hid it someplace and told me that when I could tell her the time that was on it, I could have it back. I failed, of course, but learned several very clear lessons in presentation. This is human nature at work, and every spectator comes with a predefined set of self defense skeptic rules that you need to work with. When the spectator thinks you are being clever and are playing the role of the trickster, then you are no longer playing the role of the Magician, and in fact have sullied that persona for the next Magician that comes along. I believe Siegfried and Roy accomplished their Magical success with great showmanship and by always keeping "Magic" in the equation and never being clever tricksters.
Academy of Magical Arts
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat! Whoops, wrong hat ... |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
It's probably more true to say that "some" people don't like to be fooled, but there are fairly few of them. My experience in 37 years has been that, in fact, MOST folks like to be fooled and to be REALLY fooled.
Consider, for instance, the popularity of Horror movies. What ones do we like best...those of us who find them palatable? Just gore and blood? Not generally. What we wait for is the clever "scare". That wonderful lead up to the bad guy jumping out from the totally unexpected hiding place to decapitate in a totally unexpected manner, if that's what this particular villain likes to do...so to speak. We WANT to be fooled by a good mystery movie. We want to leap from our skin in the scary movie. And, on and on. When we watch a magic trick, WE WANT TO BE FOOLED. Just because some folks like to attempt to figure out how it's done is neither here nor there as respect to the magic itself. That's just the way it is. What I got from the initial post, and which I agree with, is this: It's fairly boring to watch most flourish work unless the flourishes themselves have some purpose to serve. There is probably nothing that can be overused to the detriment of entertainment than the card flourish! I love flourishes. Heck, I made one of the very first videos on flourish work almost 20 years ago. But, I use them sparingly. Standing at my close-up table and working to get the next group of spectators to come over, I'll do some spreads, one hand cuts, etc. But as soon as I have some folks to work for, I don't "DO" flourish work as if it's part of the regular "magic". I go right into something that's, well, magical. I don't mind using a nice tight flourish to get to the finale of a trick. Daryl's cut thing (I can't think of what he calls right now!) that pops the original bottom card of the deck out is a great example. He uses it in the Snow Shoe Deal routine. All best,
Brad Burt
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I "think" Vernon was all about the magic being entertaining, which is why he crafted stories around many routines. If someone did fancy cuts and flourishes, he felt they were showing off and shouting "look how clever I am," if that's all they did.
Daryl's Hot Shot Cut that I think Brad refers to above, while fancy, is a very cool way to reveal a chosen card. As with any flourish, if it's overdone, then it's showing off. To use it as Daryl does, I think it keeps along the lines of "entertaining magic".
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
According to Lennart Green, who knew Vernon personally, Vernon loved fancy cuts and flourishes. But when I get home, I will look up exactly what Lennart said and let you know. Lennart talks about Dai on one of his DVDs. If you have them, you might know what he said better than I can recall at this moment.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
In the Ganson book on Vernon, there is a story about Vernon and Cardini (read it if you haven't).
I thought it was interesting how both of these men were the absolute best in their respective disciplines of magic. Cardini despised copycats. Both men went with their strengths. I think good magic is clever, that's a given. But, it's not a good idea to make airs of it.
POOF!
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