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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Am I too late to call all Coin, Cups & Balls, and Billiard ball effects as my own? I don't want anyone to preform them in T.V.
Since most of us won't (At least on a channel that will be watched) I assume my wishes will be followed fairly well. Any mentalism effects can be performed on T.V. Since I hate nearly every effect mentalistic effect I have ever seen, and is no threat to my manliness. If I were the type of person who needed to buy my way to magical wonderfulness...... I would be pretty ****ed to find I bought something that I couldn't perform. Ethics is a line bred animal. If I as the buyer (who needed to buy his way to magical wonderfulness), must have the ethics to care about the sellers feelings (eh, he did get his check right?), then the seller had better consider mine.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I have never put any kind of performance rights on any of my own material that I have published. However, some of the people whose material I have translated have stipulated that they would like for the people who plan to perform the material in their books to ask for permission to perform it on television. In the case of most of it, most of the people I know couldn't perform it anyway. It just wouldn't fit them. It would be like wearing someone else's clothing.
However, it serves as an inspiration for material, and that's one of the things we should be getting from the things we purchase. When you purchase items from abroad, remember that their laws covering various aspects of intellectual property may be slightly different from ours. So they may have some kind of recourse if you do their material without permission. If I'm going to use a piece of material in my act, I always ask permission to do so, even if it is technically not required. It's a nice thing to do. Sometimes, people will give you much more than you ask for. Until Terry Seabrooke published his book, which released the Cigarette in Jacket to the general magic public, I had exclusive television rights to this routine in the US. I got them from Terry by swapping him something he needed. I changed the routine to fit my personality and my style of performing. If you join the Magic Circle of London, you are required to ask originators of tricks and/or routines for permission to do their material, even if you have bought the props from them. It may be terribly inconvenient, but it separates the material you are learning from the material you earn your living with. In the UK and in Europe as well, artists are able to register their acts with the various performing unions so you don't have two dozen Moretti clones running around Europe. Of course, their act is not up for salye, anyway!
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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RichardAwesome New user 46 Posts |
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On Jul 22, 2008, Jerome Finley wrote: It would work out very well for him if he became, say, a Hollywood executive. I think the interview process begins and ends with "Are you willing to recreate whatever you lay your eyes on and use it in any manner you see fit? Yes? Are you willing to copy it as closely as possible falling just short of inviting potential legal action?" "You bet!" You're hired! Find me the next Hotel Transylvania 2. Those idiots love that ****!" "We've got Owen Wilson, with an animated Superhero toy dog! It's Marley and Me, meets The Avengers, meets Toy Story" |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Thread resurrection ...???
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On Nov 15, 2015, Terrible Wizard wrote: ! (I now have fifty posts!) |
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ATL New user 53 Posts |
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On Jul 25, 2008, Douglas Lippert wrote: Why is this important? Depending what you mean by effects of course. But I mean I don't want to spend time to figure out some 50th new way to do a color change. What is wrong with using existing one's we have? If I can do original and entertaining performance using existing tools isn't that giving back to magic? Now greatest thing Shawn Farquhar ever gave to me for example was his Shape of My Heart performance. Were those moves he used there all his original moves? Also I'm pretty sure Paul Wilson's moves in his gambling demonstration weren't original, yet it was the performance that got me interested in that stuff. I think the point of this thread is great. It would be preferred to mention it in the package if they rights are included or not and to what extent. I personally wouldn't by product that doesn't give rights for the effect, but I would totally understand that you would have to change patter and presentation for it though. Also jstone, I love your videos. Have you thought about contacting the publisher when you do review and asking about rights? I would really love to hear that included in review, for me not mentioning that sounds like not mentioning if effect is angle sensitive or not. |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
I've enjoyed reading this thread that was dredged up from back when the earth's crust was still cooling. But there is soooooo much misinformation in it. To clarify:
Legally speaking: Magic tricks are not subject to U.S. copyright laws. Nor are they subject to the California Uniform Trade Secrets Act (Civil Code sec. 3426, et seq.), unless the person performing the trick misappropriated (i.e., stole) the method. If he bought the DVD, he can perform it anywhere he wants, no matter what "restrictions" or "reservations" the seller may claim. Under the law, one cannot sell a method and thereafter restrict its use. Whoever likened it to someone teaching a person chess methods is correct. I liken it to teaching someone to play the piano, and then saying they can't play the piano on TV. You cannot legally restrict the use of a learned skill. Now, a particular presentation or patter might be subject to some sort of legal protection (see, e.g., Rice v. Fox Broadcasting Network 330 F.3d 1170; Teller v. Dogge, 8 F.Supp.3d 1228)), but use of the skill and method itself, if obtained legally, cannot be restricted under U.S. law. It does not receive copyright, trade secret or business practices protection under the law. It is not akin to songs and CDs. Ethically speaking: Given that performance of a method or skill is not susceptible to restriction under the law, my position is that the breach of ethics or morality lies upon the seller unlawfully attempting to restrict what cannot legally be restricted. The lesson to be learned, it seems to me, is that if you want to make money from selling your tricks, get comfortable with the fact that you lose all control of them. Not only can a buyer use them in any manner he/she wants, the buyer can then lend your DVD to others, or teach others your methods, and those subsequent learners can perform the methods on TV or wherever they want, and you have no recourse. Once you put your methods out into the stream of commerce, you lose the right to control their use. Period. No exceptions. That being the case, I believe that any attempt to hoodwink or bamboozle people into believing that you retain some sort of right of control over the method is unethical and immoral. And it might even be illegal and expose you to liability, as well. Not only can you lose in court (in the U.S.) for suing someone for performing your method on TV without your permission, you can find yourself being held liable for your attempt to restrict their usage. You can be sued for malicious prosecution for filing the lawsuit, or for restraint of trade, interference with economic advantage and unfair competition for attempting to prevent them from performing the trick. Additionally, if you brought a lawsuit against someone for performing your trick on TV without your permission, it would likely be subject to an anti-SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Policy) motion which could get your lawsuit thrown out and force you to pay the buyer's attorneys fees. So, if you sell your tricks, don't try to restrict their usage. Any attempt would likely be unenforceable, and might subject you to liability, yourself. --Dana (This post is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes and does not constitute legal advice. Do not attempt to rely on the statements made herein without first consulting with an attorney regarding your particular circumstances and the facts of your situation.)
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts |
I did not read every single post in this thread, but I have never quite understood the ethical issue of restricting "performing rights" for marketed magic tricks. There have been previous discussions on this issue elsewhere on the Café. I've pointed out on another forum questions like:
What if Bob Carver or Paul Young had imposed "performing rights" restrictions on "The Professor's Nightmare?" What if George McAthy had imposed "performing rights" restrictions on "The Insurance Policy?" What if Paul Curry had inmposed "performing rights" on "Out of This World?" Ken Mate performed "The Insurance Policy" on national television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWmUDKoGRdU Should he have paid a performing rights fee to George McAthy's estate to do that? When a magician does the Appearing Cane on television, should he pay performing rights to Russ Walsh's estate? When a magician does 20th Century Silks on television, should he pay performing rights to Frank Ducrot's estate? Next thing you know, the estate of the Greek dramatist Ovid will be suing William Shakespeare's estate for stealing the idea of _Pyramus and Thisbe_ and turning it into _Romeo and Juliet_. ----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
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On Jul 21, 2008, Rosemary wrote: I think that if someone sells the explanation for an effect or routine and they do not put a disclaimer limiting how that can be used, they have implicitly given permission for any reasonable and legal use. suppose I sell you the recipe for a cake. Can you make the cake? Can you eat the cake you made? Of course you can. can you start marketing the recipe? No. KJ |
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eralph357 New user 61 Posts |
By the way, 1KJ, recipes are probably not the best example to use, since recipes (lists of ingredients, etc) are not copyrightable, and so legally someone could in fact market the recipe themselves, from a legal perspective. Your moral perspective on this may vary, of course.
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
Eralph357,
Thanks, you are so right. I tend to focus on what is right or wrong. What is right and wrong tends to go beyond legal bounds. So, yes, my focus is on what you might call "morality". Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. If a person is selling their routine to other magicians, there is an implied right for those magicians to perform it. In fact, there is an implied right to perform it exactly as taught. I don't chose to do so, but it is perfectly ok. If they restrict any form of performance, they should state that in the ad copy, before you purchase. KJ |
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Mad Jake Jr. New user Willis Warf, Va. 25 Posts |
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On Jul 21, 2008, Jay Are wrote: Do you have a contractual agreement and performance clause in the form of a contract? You can't retain TV rights. |
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Danny Kazam Inner circle 1516 Posts |
Restricting rights to a buyer in any form of an agreement or contract before or after sale can and most times violates the buyers rights of sale and therefore is immoral and unethical, not to mention impossible to enforce. An attempt to enforce such an agreement could result in a counter suit.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
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