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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
There's a phase in the Vernon Cups and Balls routine, near the end before the final loads are revealed, where one ball is placed under each cup, and then they are immediately shown to have gathered under the center cup. Does this phase go back further than Vernon? Any idea on the originator of this, or the inspiration of it?
Sorry for my ignorance on the subject.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Andrew :
The "classic gathering in the middle" that you describe is very possibly the very oldest phase ofC&B routining known to man - predating the Vernon routine by nearly 2000 years! In Alciphron's Letters (Letter 17-Napaeus to Creniades ref.Loeb Classical Library,Harvard University Press), the following passage (translated from the original Greek) appears : "A man came forward, and, setting down a three-legged table,placed three cups on it.Then under these cups he hid some little round pebbles......At one moment he would hide them one under each cup;and at another moment (I don't know how) he would show them all under a single cup....." Alciphron lived in the second century a.d. Fortasse . |
JamesTong Eternal Order Malaysia 11213 Posts |
Thanks, fortasse for the historical info. This balls to middle cup effect is really really old then. Is there any other info that this move is even older than the second century? Just curious.
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uri New user Israel 95 Posts |
Well, as this is a description of an observer the details could be fuzzy.
Having read the different passes in Houdin's and Guyot's books I don't recall finding this phase, only a similar one that could be what this second century guy is describing- one of the end balls is shown to have vanished and to have appeared under the middle cup. Then the other end ball is shown to have done the same. I wonder when and where is the first technical description of how to do the phase where they all collect at once in the center immediately after having been placed each under a different cup, as in the phase in the Vernon routine. |
fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Uri:
The earliest technical description of this phase is to be found in Ozanam's Recreations Mathematiques (1723 edition). You will find it in phase III of Ozanam's explanation of C&B which appears under "Tricks With a Gibeciere". You can download (for free) my "Cups & Balls in 18th century France" from the Hocus Pocus section of Bill Palmer's The Cups & Balls Museum. There you will find full English transaltions of both Ozanam's and Guyot's treatises on C&B together with an introduction that I wrote to give some historical context. Fortasse |
uri New user Israel 95 Posts |
I have it already and it's great. I simply haven't read it carefully enough, it seems.
I'll check it. |
uri New user Israel 95 Posts |
After checking what you describe it is still not what I am talking about. What you are referring to is an interesting phase (done with only three balls) where you place a ball under each cup, then command one of the end balls to join the one in the center and show it has happened. You cover the two balls with the center cup and command the other end ball to join them, then show that he did.
A bit like Matrix. Now what I'm interested in (and what kind Mr. Musgrave was asking on my behalf) are the origins of the following phase- You place a ball under each cup, working from one end of the cup row to the other, command all the balls to gather under the center cup, immediately lift the two end cups to fairly show nothing there, then fairly lift the center cup to show all three have arrived (actually only two moved but it feels like more). You can see it done by Vernon in his routine on the magic circus on youtube, right before he stands up for the final sequence of the loading of the big balls. So where has this first appeared? |
Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
In my routine ???
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-13 06:49, uri wrote: By "Houdin" do you mean Robert-Houdin? Houdin was Robert-Houdin's father in law, a watchmaker. He wrote no books on magic. It is NEVER correct to rever to Robert-Houdin as Houdin. Robert was his last name before he married. He adopted the European hyphenated last name by a special dispensation from the French government. To address the main question: The gathering of the three balls under a single cup in one move does not show up in Hocus Pocus Junior, although the gathering of three balls on top of a cup, singly, does. Most magicians think the three ball display on the top of a single cup is much more recent than 1634, but it isn't. The phase that you refer to may have come from Malini or from Pop Krieger. Since their routines do not appear to have been recorded, we may never know.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
Thanks very much for the info, guys. It's greatly appreciated.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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uri New user Israel 95 Posts |
From now on I will refer to him as Jean Eugene Robert, then.
I wonder if Houdini knew that... |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
He obviously did not.
He also did not know that "ini" is a diminutive. Houdini does not mean "like Houdin," as some of the biographers claimed. It means "a small Houdin." However, weenie does not mean a small wee.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Hunting the history of a Vernon C&B phase (0 Likes) |
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