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Dixie Loyal user 219 Posts |
Lance,
there are other regions of the world where people have a different point of view when it comes to copies of arts. Students learn in school to copy great pieces of arts and closer the copy is to the original, the better the result given by the teacher. The master, who created it is not angry or sad, but he/she is proud that others appreciate his work so much that they copy it. He is happy that his masterpiece is reaching people who otherwise would have never seen it. He still feels and really is seen and praised as the original creator, although many people only know his work be seeing a copy. I do not try to change your point of view, but just want you to know that there are others as well. And if you really do it just for fun, why not being happy that your effect (whatever it is) is good enough to be copied? Does it change the fact that you created it ? Does it change your status as an innovative magician ? So, what exactly is changing for you when someone copies the effect ? Regards Richard |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-09 18:37, Lance Richardson wrote: Just a couple of thoughts. First, I don't understand why we continually refer to anyone -- anyone -- who does magic tricks in any way shape or form, or who steals other people's material, or who exposes material, as a "magician." I know it's an easy word to use, and doesn't get into semantics, and so forth, but gee whiz, IMHO, they're not magicians. They're just people doing magic tricks. Second, as much as I admire the idea of being creative (I'm a theatrical designer), I don't understand why it's so important nowadays to be coming up with new magic material. I don't have a clue what this effect of yours that was ripped off is, and I believe that you put a lot of sweat into it and that you wanted it to be really nice. However, given what I've seen out there recently, a lot of "new" material is just crap -- and it gets ripped off too. The only reason I can see for someone continually needing new material is if they perform for the same audience over and over, such as at the local magic club. Maybe this is where magic has gone -- collecting new toys. I don't have that big of a magic library (maybe a hundred books), and most of it dates from over thirty years ago, but there's enough material in there to last me several lifetimes, especially if I were to perform for the general public. But then again, since people nowadays are continually ripping off the newest material maybe the old stuff is reasonably safe.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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JoshuaMichael New user 37 Posts |
Lance,
You must have come up with something really great for someone to want to steal it. Ripoffs exist in all the arts, as well as all walks of life, and in magic they happen from amateurs all the way up to the pros. Check out Danny Hustle's posts under Steve Spill Not Mel Mellers here under Right and Wrong. I'm not a "power Player" either and years ago I showed a well-known magician an original card effect and the famous guy ended up publishing my trick, without credit or permission, in his book. I'm probably an over-sensitive guy but I was so disgusted and hurt and felt violated, that I gave up magic for 10 years. Don't let this happen to you. Stay with your passion. Don't let some low life ripoff damage your spirit. |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-09 18:37, Lance Richardson wrote: Well the right answer is - they shouldn't. However to people who rip-off illusions, buy knock-offs or reverse engineer a prop justify it to themselves. They feel they deserve to perform it and my favorite excuse - "it's not fair it costs so much". From the early 80's to the mid 90's I was involved with a lot of major name illusionists, guys you all know and there really isn't anything that can be done about this. John Gaughan & Jim Steinmeyer cannot stop it, so there's little chance for you to. Legal protection is expensive and if an illusion IS patentable, that doesn't protect you, it only gives you a chance for legal recourse. However spending $20,000 to go after someone who knocked off your $4500 illusion isn't beneficial to anyone. Earlier in this thread there was discussion about Lance Burton. I knew Lance back in the 80's and have a lot of insight to his old manipulation act. His persona was not influenced so much by Channing Pollock or Cardini, but rather Dracula. More specifically Frank Langella's version of Dracula. In the house he used to live in, in the living room was a large framed poster of Langella as Dracula. Look for images of Langella, specifically the ones with the high collar and the scarf in place of a tie and you'll see the inspiration for Lance's appearance. Copperfield's early illusionist influence was Richardi and that was where he started. A bit later on it was Gene Kelly & Fred Astaire. Watch early Copperfield specials (the first 3 or so) and then watch some old musicals with those guys and you will spot the similarity. This is where the imitator's fail because they don't know the reason behind what they are imitating. If you tried to imitate Lance and didn't know all the details behind the act, you're missing a key part of the puzzle. There's a reason he wore purple with his tux and it's those little details that help create the entire character. |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
Dixie
The issue of stealing work is not regional. Your analogy of artists feeling honored by their work being instituted in art schools is missing two things. One, most of those artists are dead! They are not around to refuse. Two, you are comparing visual art to performance art. Different creatures. There are not throngs of magic schools teaching the techniques of the masters. Just throngs of magicians taking effects another slaved over to give them the end result of the originator. George If we took your position on designing effects, magic would die. Plain & simple. Ironically, the magi that slaved over new effects during the last 100 years can be given the credit for the ones we have now. It's not just on a box per box basis, it's that it all is part of the evolution in illusion design. I think Lance is trying to point out we are the last line of defense. This isn't about the few legal channels we have, it's about calling the people out that show up to take someone's work. Maybe the problem is enough of us are of the weekend warrior mentality that we look at these instances as a personal dispute, not the theft that it is. We need to be giving more back in this way even if it's just a carefully worded phone call, letter, email, post or whatever. Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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Dixie Loyal user 219 Posts |
Sean,
talking about copying etc., I do see quite some similarities between the elevator illusion done by Dough Henning and later by David Copperfield. Nevertheless I appreciated seeing it from DC because I never had the chance to see anything from Dough Henning life. So, if Copperfield would have followed some minds here in the Café, he might not have shown the elevator ever. Too close to the original. Not really new. Do your own style, DC. Not talking about the death saw either. Get it ? |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
Copperfield is FAR from copying anything Henning did and it's obvious you don't understand the difference between copying, doing similar illusions, buying rights to an illusion and making improvements of what came before.
#1. Copperfield (among others) bought Henning's illusions when Doug left the businesses. #2. Copperfield buys the rights to illusions and typically pays more than anyone else. #3. Just because you do an illusion someone else does, doesn't mean you're copying them. In the case of Copperfield doing illusions Henning did earlier, you absolutely cannot compare the performance styles of these two. There are several illusions Henning was known for that Copperfield bought the rights to - Walking through a mirror, Water Levitation, Elevator & Things That Go Bump in the Night. In EVERY case a new illusion was constructed, looked completely different from what Henning presented, had many improvements on the effect and was presented in a completely different manner. |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
Thank you Domino. I'm glad a few people can still find this thread who have some background on the subject.
Dixie- One thing you may think about is fame or no fame, ripping off is still ripping off. Not saying that's the case with DC or Burton, but multi-million dollar deals don't put you in the right. Lance & others may never see thousands from the sale of their creations, but he has every right to point a finger if needed. We really should be pointing more fingers to let thieves know we see them. They don't like bad press just as much as we don't like it. FYI, I'm not a saint with this. However my problems were quite awhile ago. Fortunately I learned from people speaking to me on what I had done and why it was a problem. Thanks, Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-11 04:44, SeanScottMagic wrote: Sorry, but I beg to differ. There has been innovation in magic since day one (probably since some Egyptian priest decided to use three cups instead of two... or something like that), and there will always be. Just like in any other field that needs to move forward. I'm not saying, hey, stop creating material -- all I'm saying is that there's a heck of a lot of material out there that is perfectly usable but doesn't see the light of day any more because so many people today are on the innovation bandwagon. The Linking Ring has had "Parades" for umpteen years: material submitted by members for the use of other members. Other magic magazines do the same thing. Once upon a time that material was there to be freely used and/or adapted; nowadays adapting something (or even being inspired by something) is often looked upon as stealing. My whole point is that magic "is" (or "should be") about performing. But the more "new" stuff that people on the innovation bandwagon come up with, the more material is going to be stolen. It's a matter of numbers. But who creates all this new stuff, and who is it stolen by? And why? Is it out of sheer laziness? Or out of wanting to make a quick buck? Or out of wanting to have the latest toys to impress the guys at the magic club? Or to get five minutes of fame? I think the ironic thing here is that professional performers (DC, Lance, and others) can go for a whole year or more with the same material. Cardini did the same act for years, and Channing basically did the same act for years too. I can understand the "fun" aspect of creating stuff, but I do have to wonder if people involved in magic nowadays are more focused on creating material for other practitioners than on performing.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
I understand your point regarding much of the material not being used. It's a good point. If magicians knew what the Tarbell volumes contained, they might become fairly rare. I hit the index in mine whenever I'm working on something new just to get the footnotes correct.
As a performer and vendor of magic effects, my focus is to create and market effects I feel can be distinguished from predecessors. Somewhere, someone I figure can use my contribution to make what they are doing a little more unique than the last guy. It of course provides some livelihood for myself as well, it's an honest buck. But magic will always be appreciated in ratio to existing technology. If we do not have the innovators among us we may not always have audiences coming back for more, or at all. Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-11 10:51, George Ledo wrote: As I mentioned earlier,I was very much involved with illusions and some of the top guys for years. Today I can't stand to watch illusions. I can't think of one illusionist that brings anything innovative to the scene. I see "new" illusions on TV specials, but they all look the same. All the illusionists look the same. They act the same. They wear the same clothes. Bottom line, 99% of the illusionist working today are interchangeable. If one dropped dead on stage, you could drag him off, get the next guy on and not miss a beat. It's not about the illusion. It's not the box design or that you're impaling someone with a ninja sword instead of a broadsword. It's not that your costume is black with purple accents and that sets you apart from the guy who's wearing a black costume with red accents. The illusionists today have little to no personality. There is nothing distinctive about who they are or what they do. Replying to George's comment above - he's correct. I would rather watch Denney Haney perform a 3 sword suspension, and sword basket than some of the "modern" illusionists who may have a "new design" for some box that does something, but no personality. If you want to do something new and innovative, stop thinking about your boxes and start thinking about your personality, your character and creating an onstage persona that people genuinely like and stands apart from everyone else. |
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JoshuaMichael New user 37 Posts |
Good points one and all.
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Maybe we need to set friendships and popularity aside and look at matters objectively. I can think of a number of items that were published and sold without the creator's permission. Inevitably, Café-goers defended the thief - "oh, but he's a nice guy". In one case, people defended a person on the grounds that the material was so strong - overlooking it wasn't his to release!!!
There are magic "celebrities" that many amateurs gush around but working pros avoid knowing their material is at risk of being published out from under them. When we stop playing 6th grade popularity games and start treating this as an art to be respected, maybe we will have taken the first step. Brad Henderson |
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Levity Elite user 447 Posts |
Sadly, the whole issue of copyright and respect for it is fast disappearing everywhere...more and more people seem to not understand it, or believe in it, or they just plain disregard it for whatever reasons. Things like YouTube haven't helped, especially when it comes to performers' rights...
G
"I suggest you watch very carefully..."
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
Before this gets too off track, we need to remember the thread is about theft and the justification in calling magicians out when they knock off someone's work. Lance actually had someone build a very homely version of his effect. They did not even to to the trouble of changing the look. His piece is very different and unmistakeable. Regardless of personal tastes in presentations, being complacent about illusion theft will not make things better. Personal creations will always be worth defending.
Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Like I (sort of) said above, I think we need to understand who is stealing material and why they're doing it so we can home in on how to correct the problem.
As far as I can tell from hanging around the Café, a lot of the people who steal material (and notice I'm not calling them "magicians") seem to fairly new in the game. I'd guess that most of them have probably been involved for no more than a couple of years and have had relatively little personal contact with performers who have been into magic longer. In other words, they belong to the YouTube and internet generation. Which to me means that maybe they just haven't been indoctrinated into magic they way we used to be back when I started. Okay, I know that sounds like a quarter-*** profiling job but I do believe I'm seeing a pattern. And maybe I'm totally wrong in the pattern I think I'm seeing. But I'm betting there is a pattern. I believe that if we can identify that pattern, then a way of addressing it will present itself. Elementary, my dear Clouseau.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
George,
The people I see ripping off others in order to bolster their own sales and publications are not internet newbies - they are people who have realized that most magicians don't care whose idea it is, as long as it is a good one and they can now use it. Brad Henderson |
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jErMZ New user 60 Posts |
Hi all, I'm here to restart this whole theft thing in the magic community.. first of all greeting from Singapore!
I'm having this problem here as well.. personally I'm a professional magician for about 7 years now.. together with some others that has worked about the same time or even longer.. and here comes new magic kids.,. trying to do shows for events and all for some extra pocket money for school.. I understand where they come from.. their interest for magic and all try it out on stage and stuff earn some quick money.. dun we all start there? but to the extend of taking people's act wholesale! together with the music and all that without even asking? I'm talking about moves, routine, patter and all that.. its not like they done it to perfection but lousy sleight of hand, presentation, comedy timing and all!! which we took years to master and perfect.. I really have no idea how to handle these kinds of situations.. should I take it as compliment? or should I confront these people and tell them its wrong in hope to wake them up? please I would like to hear and answer from all across the globe! |
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