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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
Angelo that is good news!
Last night (to test myself) I had a friend tie a knot in a regular men's linen handkerchief. He is a big and strong man. I did not watch the tying process and the handkerchiefs were both the same color. I asked him to tighten the knot as tight as his strength permitted without ripping the fabric. He tied a small, tight granny knot (granny knot is easy to identify as the “ears” stick out perpendicular to the knot). I must admit that I had to study the knot to see which ear went with which body and I had to “jerk” the proper ear sharply a couple of times before it upset - but upset it did. My experiment reminded me to never let anyone tie a handkerchief that tightly in performance. It is my show and I am in control.
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Jim Mullen Veteran user Lake Tahoe, California 351 Posts |
From my experience, I agree that Harry's recommendations are absolutely right.
Additionally, I would add that when a particularly tight knot is created by a spectator, the knot may still be difficult to pull off the straightened handkerchief even though you have successfully upset the knot. In this case, I sometimes cover the knot with the first two fingers and thumbs of both hands pretending to straighten out the knot. Under this cover, I give the knot a bit of a start toward coming off the straightened handkerchief while holding the two handkerchiefs by my third and fourth fingers of both hands. For actually separating the handkerchiefs, I use only one hand in the normal fashion to complete pulling the knot off the straightened handkerchief under cover of one handkerchief. In other words, I give the pulling off a start of about 3/4 inches; after doing that, the pull off is easy. I also thought of the idea earlier presented of having the spectator take one end while you take the other end of the same handkerchief. I do not like this technique though because it tips the method too much. A lot of people know that a square or granny knot can be upset, but, even so, they are fooled by the Slydini handling which carefully obscures the fact that two ends of the same handkerchief are being pulled. The beauty of the Slydini handling is that it appears that you are holding firmly the two ends of two handkerchiefs and pulling them tight. In actuality you are holding a bitter end of Handkerchief A with the forefinger, middle finger and thumb of Hand A and are holding only loosely a bitter end of Handkerchief B by the forefinger, middle finger and thumb of Hand B. Meanwhile you are holding tightly with the fourth and fifth fingers of Hand B and loosely with the fouth and fifth fingers of Hand A. To hold the handkerchiefs in this way requires that the bitter end of Handkerchief A be on the same side of the knot as the remaining part of Handkerchief A. To get the bitter end on the same side on the same side as the remaining part of the handkerchief, Slydini uses two clever techniques. For the knot that you tie, his non-standard tying technique just causes this to happen. For the knot that a spectator ties, Slydini looks at the knot, asks what kind it is, and he casually moves the bitter end to the "wrong" side while while showing the knot to a second spectator. Once the bitter end is on the same side as the remainder of the handkerchief, the knot can be upset easily and without tipping the method. Just pull by the first two fingers and thumb of Hand A and the last two fingers of Hand B. The other fingers remain loose, but the audience does not know this. I realize that the above is complicated to read through, but I hope it helps somebody understand the principles that Slydini (and Malone) employ.
Jim Mullen
Lake Tahoe |
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Angelo the Magician Loyal user Vienna(Austria/Europe) 217 Posts |
Thank you - I am very glad that I started this thread, because many good magicians as for example Jim Mullen 2 help with their experiences. And they help not only me, for I am sure they help many other magicians too, improving their performances of this effect!
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yin_howe Special user Malaysia 981 Posts |
I too previously had some trouble with this routine. Harry Murphy helped me out a great deal on this too. from technique to where to get the 'silks'. Thanks again Harry.
I am by no means a pro at this, but one thing to try Angelo. If pulling 1 silk does not seem to upset the knot, try pulling the other one. i.e if you are pulling the silk with the different colored thread, switch and try pulling the one without the thread.
"Talent without passion is talent wasted.."
https://www.youtube.com/user/yinhowe80/ |
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Jim Mullen Veteran user Lake Tahoe, California 351 Posts |
Yin Howe's recommendation about pulling the other ear when things get tough is a good one, and this idea is mentioned by Bill Malone on his L&L DVD on the Slydini Silks. I have done this a number of times with success.
Remember that the handkerchiefs cannot get wet or even be handled by wet hands. Wetness makes it nearly imposible to undo the knots. As to what silks to use, I recommend the parachute type material , which I got from Palmer Tilden. I like these better than the ones from L&L, which I had bought previously. The parachute type from Palmer outlasts the P&L by a factor of three at least. Also, the parachute type is a bit slippery, which helps with upsetting of the knots and counteracts dampness somewhat. I have heard complaints that Palmer's are not quite as white as the ones from L&L, and this is so, but this has not been any kind of problem for me. Both are the right size (24 inch), and both have the colored thread in one of the pair. I bought eight of Palmer's silks to make certain that I would have these available in the future. For the larger purchase, he gave me a discount. However, I have used only one pair for dozens of performances over the last two years. The remainder are just in storage. This is a great trick, a true classic that, once learned, will remain in one's inventory of tricks for many years. Jim
Jim Mullen
Lake Tahoe |
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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
I agree that Palmer Tilden's "silks" are a superior product. They are amongst the best made and properly made at that. I have used them and have a couple of sets. I also have several sets of the version that is sold by Tony Clarke. They are also very good and well made and do the job nicely.
What I tend to use lately are some custom made special size and color versions for me by Frank Starsini at the Ambitious Card. I am a real pain in wanting something no one else has. They are all pretty much the same in handling. Let me say this, I first learned this trick as Charley Edwards “Self Untying Knots” years before I ever heard of or saw Slydini. I use men’s cotton handkerchiefs and they worked as well as any of the special hanks! That’s how it was done back then. Heck, I’ve even used standard magician silks to perform the routine. They work but won’t last long for repeated performances. For a one-off they are OK. Frankly, almost any hank will work. The so-called Slydini silks/scarves just make it easier and last longer given the abuse the routine gives the material. The original Slydini silks were a bit more transparent than any of the one's being produced today (that I have actually handled) because Slydini had his made of surplus WWII parachute material (Rayon). I own a set I bought directly from Slydini back in the day.
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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mtstic44 Loyal user 280 Posts |
I know this is an old thread but I was reading in one of Slydini'so books and he said to make sure the knot is tied on top and not on the bottom especially on a granny knot.I was having the same problem locking up on me but now they are coming apart fine.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
I'm coming in late too!
The three steps to learning a new trick: 1. Learn how it is DONE. 2. Learn how to DO it. 3. Learn how to DO it so that it ENTERTAINS. I learned #1 on July 4, 1941. --from a sideshow magician. I was 9 years old. I eventually learned #2, how to DO it, a few years later, when my hands were big enough!) #3 was the biggest challenge! (Several more years!) It was originally published in Scot's "Discovery of Witchcraft" 500+ years ago. Slydini added great PERSONALITY and PRESENTATION. (plus a few "technicals" like parachute "silk".) Charlie Edwards' great routine was published in Ganson's "Routined Manipulation Finale" page 83-- Harry Murphy, although he uses slightly different "terms" than I (as an old Scouter!) gave the OP, the "real work". SPECTATOR MANAGEMENT is a critical factor. Fifty years ago, when I started doing school assembly tours full time, I put the "Slydini" knots in, as my first onstage spectator trick. I USUALLY use a girl or young lady. (They tend to react better.) SHE ties the knotS. That convinces the audience, that they are real knots. I describe the spectator management in my book. The knot "vanishing" plays to Kindergartners thru college age groups (and, older adults, too.) About 25 years ago, I found some polyester scarves about 20" square, that work well, and really last. (I get a season out of them--350-400 shows.) I sometimes use 4 scarves and the knots "reappear" in the second pair. This can be accomplished in the old standard way, or with "variable tension grippers" (as Gene Anderson calls them!
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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noland Veteran user 350 Posts |
I bought Dick Oslund's book, "Road Scholar," and accompanying DVD. I liked his presentation of Slydini knots--he has a helper tie the ends of 2 scarves together with several knots, then upsets them just once, with no repeat. Dick follows this with Serpentine Silk. I decided to try adding Dick's presentation of the Slydini knots to my show too (not including Serpentine Silk), but I would like to follow up the Slydini knot phase by tying one of the silks around the helper's arm and making it penetrate the arm. I've been practicing this using two 36 inch polyester scarves I bought 50 years ago at Woolworth's (they were about $1 a piece then). But then one of them ripped because of all the stress from being yanked on, and because the fiber had worn out. I'm trying to find a replacement. The standard Slydini silks sold through magic dealers are only 18 inches square, and don't work for the full routine I have in mind. Does anyone know a source for 36 inch square polyester scarves, suitable for the rigors of a Slydini silk presentation?
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 7, 2015, noland wrote: Slydini Silks also come in 24" size. 36" is way to large and handle properly for the un-gimmicked silk through arm. http://www.palmermagic.com/shop/slydini-silks-24/ Sounds like you are being to forceful and aggressive with the scarves. Are you just trying to do it without proper instructions. It is more acting then really pulling the heck out them until they rip. I think you have jumped ahead in your mind on making a double knot, I suggest you watch the performance again. Crossing over the ends twice is what makes a single square knot. |
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noland Veteran user 350 Posts |
Thanks for the link, Bill. I just ordered one set of the 24 inch scarves--I think they'll work for my purposes. And no, I don't think I'm yanking too hard on the scarf--the material has just deteriorated with age. Thanks again.
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
NOLAND! PM me!
Glad you like the routine.
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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mtpascoe Inner circle 1932 Posts |
Ballerina’s know how to upset knots. They have to make sure their ribbons are tight on their ankles for their point shoes. They are taught not only how to tie them, but how to upset the knots.
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
I'll post something in secret sessions.
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