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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts 
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On 2008-12-04 23:18, T. Sebastian wrote: This is 100% not true. As a guy who has played in many bands over the years, when you are playing FOR PAY in a club, somebody pays royalty to SESAC, BMI & ASCAP. It is usually the club owner who pays a blanket fee yearly. If you have a jukebox in a club or play the radio in your barber shop, you need to pay royalties to the originators. People have been busted for not doing so, and the fines can be enormous. You can get more information here: http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/533038?link=footer# So, I guess that makes that argument moot. Best, Dan-  "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts
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Also, keep in mind nobody is talking about tricks. What is being talked about is somebody seeing Gazzo, or Cellini, or Sonny Holliday, or Mac King, or Jeff Hobson and nicking their entire act, and sometimes even their persona.
I do a lot of store bought "tricks" in my act, but most of the words that come out of my mouth and the presentations are mine. I do Jeff Hobson's physical routine for the egg bag in my act. The presentation of it, and every word that comes out of my mouth, is mine. You're buying a trick, not a persona. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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T. Sebastian Loyal user Ozark Mountains, USA 223 Posts
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Thanks for the clarification.
On the music tip, I just showed up, played drums and got paid. I never heard of a cover band paying out royalties. It's double moot because I have no interest in performing music anymore. Rock Band video game comps (among other things) have cheapened the art to the point that I want nothing to do with it. On 2008-12-05 20:08, T. Sebastian wrote: Ok, I just looked at the BMI website, and I must admit that I never had a clue that these rules existed. I'm glad I know that now. Plus, if I ever hear someone playing one of MY songs, I know I can charge them for it. heh Not that it's likely to happen. It does seem rather unenforceable outside of regular music venues, though.
So sorry I soiled your precious eyes.
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ed rhodes Inner circle Rhode Island 2889 Posts
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I had a post here that seems to have gotten lost.
I did a play called "Deadwood Dick, Legend of the West." In the play, one of the characters had to come around the corner singing "Happy Birthday to You." He hated the moment and changed it to "Turn Out The Lights." The play was actually well received by the "African-American" audience, and we had some rather big-scale celebrities in our audiences... one of them turned out the be the LAWYERS for the guy who wrote "Turn Out The Lights," and he strongly suggested that we stop singing his artist's song during our show! (Of course, technically, "Happy Birthday" is still copyrighted... but their lawyers never showed up at our show!)
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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T. Sebastian Loyal user Ozark Mountains, USA 223 Posts
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I foresee a time when a person cannot walk down the street singing their favorite song without being slapped with a lawsuit.
So sorry I soiled your precious eyes.
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts
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On 2008-12-05 10:58, Danny Hustle wrote: I thought this was about buying a whole act/show. Mario |
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts
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On 2008-12-06 12:04, Mario Morris wrote: Either way - not worth it.
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts
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Amen, brother Bloor, the wh....er...nevermind.
Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-12-06 12:04, Mario Morris wrote: I am kind of... For instance, Jeff Hobson will sell you his egg bag and his handling for the egg bag. He is not selling you his lines, persona, and every nuance of his being. There was a pretty big magic competition not too long ago, in Detroit I believe, where the winner just went out and did a 'Hobson'. Just did Hobson's act right down to his mannerisms and persona. AND THE OTHER MAGICIANS VOTED HIM BEST MAGICIAN. I bought Hobson's egg bag. I do it in every darn show I do - walk around, corporate, adult comedy, kid shows. It is rapidly becoming a signature for me. NOT A WORD THAT COMES OUT OF MY MOUTH IS HOBSON'S. I am doing Hobson's PHYSICAL routine, and I am using Hobson's egg bag (which is AWESOME, by the way), but the secret ingredient and the thing that makes it work for me is I've added a whole lot of Danny Hustle. The lines, the persona, are all me. Most of the handling, some of the timing, and the bag is what Mr. Hobson sold to me. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-12-04 23:18, T. Sebastian wrote: I love it when the uninformed go off on a rant. Most of the silliness in this post has been answered; however, I'll add a tuppence worth myself. I earned my living as a musician for about a dozen years. I've written, composed, arranged and played. I have a lot of copyrighted material of my own. When the groups I worked with learned new material, we didn't just depend on our ears; we sometimes purchased sheet music, just to make sure we didn't miss anything. But we didn't just learn from pirated copies of the tune. We bought albums, so the artists got a little of our money up front. Second, as Danny Hustle pointed out, when we worked in venues that charged admission or were otherwise commercial venues, such as restaurants, the venues paid ASCAP and BMI a blanket fee for the use of their music. In the last decade or so, the various licensing agencies have started checking the venues that don't pay a blanket fee to see if anyone performing there is using music they license. That's when the garage bands have to pay up. Some musicians very wisely handle this by performing ONLY their own original material. The fact is that the musical royalties are the easiest of all to enforce. Still, they miss about 50% of what is owed the people who actually create the material because of copyists, illegal taping, etc.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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T. Sebastian Loyal user Ozark Mountains, USA 223 Posts
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I really wasn't trying to rant. Thanks for informing me. These are the reasons why artists have managers and other people to handle the business side of things, right? Sorry for running my mouth from the drummer's chair. You'd think I would know to shut up by now.
I still want to know if one has the right to perform a trick that they see it performed and figure out for themselves. What if they devise their own method that differs from the original? Ok, maybe I did rant a little, but let me explain. As a musician, I worked very hard to get an original project off the ground. No notable success, but I am still very proud of the music I made in those years. During that time I also played in cover bands, and I always had the perception that it was lowly because we weren't playing our own stuff. Now I realize that the audience is what matters, and I'm just a servant. So, I do what plays well. Not necessarily what I would most like to do. I don't bootleg magic tricks or anything. It's not like I'm trying to get free secrets. I'm just trying to dig into this topic because it's something that I've thought much about. Not from the business angle, from the performance angle. Although, now I'm thinking about the business angle.
So sorry I soiled your precious eyes.
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3528 Posts
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On 2008-12-06 11:48, T. Sebastian wrote: Or, for even thinking a thought without permission...
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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T. Sebastian Loyal user Ozark Mountains, USA 223 Posts
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Sleep and wake and serve and ... repeat.
So sorry I soiled your precious eyes.
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RobertBloor Inner circle The Socialist Republic of the USA. 1051 Posts
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Thanks, Danny. You know what I said sounds a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there's some real truth to it. I think many people here are aware of the "discussions" that took place with Gazzo regarding his act and my act. Here's how it worked for me - in the beginning, yes, I did the Gazzo act darn near verbatim. I was hopeful to learn the timings and how and why of what he did. Gazzo's a master performer, and I had a lot to learn starting as a young grasshopper. Over time, I was able to back off of Gazzo's presentation and start developing my own timing, lines, etc. Here's where the problem came for me, personally. It became increasingly difficult to do a cups & balls routine without having "some amount of Gazzo" in my show. It wasn't intentional. It was almost ingrained in my subconscious to play as Gazzo did. And, of course, the battles broke out. Sides were taken, and egos swelled. It's not that I was intentionally trying to rip off or hack Gazzo's routine. In fact, I was making dedicated efforts to move away from it and develop my own persona in the act. Gazzo perceived that I was ripping off his act. I perceived Gazzo was being a prick. In the end, we were both right. And, we were both wrong. Years later, I have an understanding of why Gazzo was peeved off the way he was. I wish things had turned out better, as I believe I could have learned plenty from him. It's taken me years to figure out that my biggest problem wasn't Gazzo, it was my own ego. Oh, yes, we magicians are egotistical. Our acts are all about us and impressing an audience. Somehow, somewhere in our subconscious minds, we all want to be beloved, famous and recognized for doing tricks. Just doesn't work that way. Only in the last year, when I've begun developing my own act that focuses on supporting other people - that isn't even a magic act, fwiw - have I begun to see true success in my life. To get back on point - buying other people's acts - it really isn't worth it. Here I am, years after starting "busking." And what do I have to show for it? -I don't do the act I started out on. -I don't really perform "on the streets" (or fairs/festivals) any longer. -I alienated many people. -I missed an opportunity to learn from a master of our craft. I'm now working out my own presentation, that uses magic only to visually illustrate points. The magic is secondary to what I give the audience. Is that a big thing? I think so. Though if you look at the list I just gave, these lessons have cost me thousands of dollars in time & money, as well as costing me some respect, and probably even some dignity. So, lesson learned - buying someone else's act - just isn't worth it. Best, Robert
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"
-The Declaration of Independence |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts
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Just to be clear, I have never had any misunderstanding with Gazzo. I found him to be a great teacher and supportive thereafter. Mind you, I have never tried to copy his persona; instead, from the out-set, my developed persona is my own of which I am committed to developing further. Both before and after the Master class I attended.
As far as I am concerned, Cups and balls is out there. If you going to do them, someone is going to say I have seen that before, even if it is different. The same can be said for escapology, a juggling show and so on. If I watch, say, Nick Nicolas, Gazzo, Peter Wardell, Garry Animal and host of others I could mention. Then their finish could be said are very similar, but to the trained eye, they are not. They are all individual performers. If a clone starts to perform word for word any of the above, then it will show and backfire. On the other hand, cups and balls are out there. Being one of the oldest tricks in the world, no one can claim this trick for their own. They can claim their routine is their own, but no one can have a Monopoly on the oldest tick in the world. If you buy a routine, then it is yours to perform. You have a legal Licence to perform it. To copy a persona word for word, then I would have to agree with Danny and Robert, don't do it, aim to make the C&B routine your routine. As far as the principle of of the C&B, this will always belong to the Magic World and all who are involved in it. Just as juggling clubs belong to jugglers. Mario P.S. Sorry about my spelling. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts
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That was a great post, "Bloor the... nevermind".
It certainly shows a ton of growth on your part. I started with Cellini's cups routine almost word for word. I wouldn't recognize it as Cellini's routine anymore, but I picked a starting point that I liked. It took several years to get away from his routine. One idea at a time.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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Posted: Dec 5, 2008 03:52 pm 
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