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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
JC,
You should really consider taking advantage of the RNT2 clearance prices while you have a chance. Deals like this don't happen every day and they're sure to hold their value if you choose to sell them later.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
JC, in one of your posts you mentioned having Tarbell. If my memory serves me right, the Cups & Balls is covered in Volume 1 of Tarbell, which should be enough to get you started.
Don't worry about having cheap cups. I demo the Cups & Balls all the time with a $5 set of small plastic cups from Royal Magic (FUN, Inc.), and they work just fine (they will take a golf ball as a final load). Worry instead about learning a good false transfer or two; perfect your patter and your final load technique and timing. Then you can move up to whatever cups strike your fancy, although in my humble opinion you don't need to spend more than about $100 to get a perfectly serviceable set of copper or brass cups. And BTW, welcome to the Café! SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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konjurer Veteran user Iowa 395 Posts |
The Eddy Ray DVDs are phenomenal. I've heard the Ammar set is better but that doesn't make the Ray set bad. It is one of the most useful DVDs I own. There is enough material on the Eddy Ray disks to keep you busy for a long, long, long time.
Keep in mind on how the material is organized. He teaches the basics sleights first; various palms, steals, fake loads and vanishes. Then you learn a bunch of opening sequences. Then he teaches a bunch of middle sequences. Then you learn a bunch of ending rhythms and final load sequences. Along the way you learn a bunch of cup manipulations, wand spins and wand & silk appearances/vanishes to accent your routine. These are a bunch of building blocks from which you can create dozens of routines. I don't think there you will pick up any bad habits from this set. Don't take my word though. Pop them in your DVD make up your own mind. I think you'll really enjoy the material.
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Clever stuff goes here! |
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3009 Posts |
I'll second the support for Eddy Ray as well (I bought the Ammar DVD's after working with Ray's set for a few months). Ray, IMO, does a great job on his DVD's. Hope to see him do his act sometime on a feature set, but that probably won't happen with his present studio.
Mr. Palmer - you certainly are a top authority on this site, and we all respect your opinion greatly. Out of curiosity, is your main criticism of the Ray DVD's the manner in which they are structured, the quality of teaching, or the quality of the sleights themselves? Judging by a couple of posts that another MM magician has posted, it sounds as though MagicMakers edits the DVD's without much regard for input from the performers. I'm sending you a PM, JC, about some Penguin copper cups that might tide you over until you get your dream set, if you're interested. Delivered in discrete spouse-resistant packaging, of course (or in person, if you're going to the seminar at Denny's this weekend).
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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Donnie Buckley V.I.P. Cleveland, Ohio 1123 Posts |
The worst habit you can acquire is NOT practicing.
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Scott Compton Special user Hampton, VA 747 Posts |
I own a shop and I have sold the Ammar DVD's and the Eddie Ray DVD's with mixed results. Ammar's are definitely a superior teaching course. Michael teaches why as well as how, which the ER course doesn't focus as much on. If you don't know why, then how doesn't matter. If you practice you will get better results no matter which one you receive.
BTW, the ER course should come with aluminum cups, not chrome plated plastic. I have had a few people come in and tell me that they own the ER course, but it came with the plastic cups. The dealer was obviously replacing the aluminum cups with the plastics, and selling the aluminum cups separately. Scott
Magic is an art. I am merely a tour guide.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scott-Compton-Magician/160270640674735 "You are the magic" Jay Ose to Albert Goshman |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-08 17:23, DDecae wrote: I could not agree more!
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
The worst things about the Eddy Ray DVD's are the following:
1) A deliberate effort on MM's part to confound the beginner by naming the DVD set with a name similar to the Ammar DVD's. 2) A total lack of constructive editing. There are numerous mistakes that Eddy made on the DVD that should have been edited out. (dropping the ball, etc.) They weren't. 3) A complete or nearly complete lack of crediting of various sleights and moves. 4) A complete disregard for the history behind the material. I have come to learn that Eddy had NO control over the final product, how it was edited or marketed. In fact, he wanted to include the items that I have stated were missing. I hope he has learned something from this. When you compare the end products, the Ammar course, which teaches you three completely different routines in ascending difficulty, all of the major sleights, fully credited, historical material from Bob Read, with explanations of why this is important, and the Vernon routine, which is fundamental to modern cups and balls work, vs the Eddy Ray DVD's, which have far less of the important material, I believe that anyone could see why it would be better to purchase the Ammar DVD's. I'm not saying that you can't learn how to do the cups and balls from the Eddy Ray DVD's. I'm saying that there is a better alternative, and that the Eddy Ray DVD's were a deliberate attempt on the part of MM to confound the issue. For example, if a parent goes to a B&M magic shop and says, "I want to buy the DVD's that teach the Complete Cups and Balls," the person behind the counter might not know the difference. The parent certainly won't.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3009 Posts |
Well said. And it's true, too, that I actually purchased Ray's DVD's based on price alone, before I anything about either him or Ammar. But they did get me interested enough to eventually lead to a purchase of the Ammar DVDs, which are terrific for all the reasons cited.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
I wholeheartedly endorse Bill's opinion on this subject. An investment in the Ammar book and/or the DVD set is the best possible investment you could ever make as a budding C&B magician.
Fortasse |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Some people buy by price alone. I understand that. During the time that I was actively involved in selling cups and balls sets at retail, I felt that it was absolutely imperative that all of my customers receive a good set of cups, a magic wand, a set of balls, a set of load balls, a close-up mat and a booklet that would give them at least enough information to get off to a sound start.
The copper Laurie Ireland Commemmorative cups that I had made by Morrissey, with permission from Jay Marshall had all of that for less than $80.00. I couldn't do that again, these days. But I was determined to give a good product for the money. I don't have anything against Eddy Ray as a person.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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JRob Veteran user Central South Carolina 395 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-09 17:28, fortasse wrote: If you do find the book you best jump on it. When I bought mine a couple weeks ago (Merry Christmas to me), my dealer told me he could not get anymore. I just checked the publisher's website (L&L) and could not find the book listed as available. The DVDs, however, were very much available.
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "<br>
The Professor's Facebook Page |
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fortasse Inner circle 1201 Posts |
Try abebooks.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
See if they L & L has any of the deluxe edition left. Out of print or out of stock at the publisher's does not mean unavailable.
Abebooks has four copies, ranging from $45.00 to $175, as I write this. Also, check the major auctions.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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yin_howe Special user Malaysia 981 Posts |
The MM Cups and Balls DVD has more "techniques" (i.e. "moves") compared to the Ammar DVDs, which contain all of the material Mr Palmer stated in his post
"Talent without passion is talent wasted.."
https://www.youtube.com/user/yinhowe80/ |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
There remains the question of application of said moves. I know a fellow who knows so many moves that he can do 30 minutes of cups and balls without repeating a single move.
Anyone get the point? While there may be more moves on the Eddy Ray DVD's, the explanations on the Ammar DVD's and the practical applications on the Ammar DVD's are far superior.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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cupsandballsmagic Inner circle 2705 Posts |
Quote:
No kidden. I’m in a constant battle with my wife who does not like the look of magic books piled throughout the house (I like the look). It's not just me then..! |
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JRob Veteran user Central South Carolina 395 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-01-10 02:01, Bill Palmer wrote: Absolutely. When I first started I foolishly bought "25 Amazing Magic Tricks and Tips with Cups & Balls". The moves were presented as if they were stand alone effects. While not a total waste of time, it wasn't much help. When I obtained Mr. Ammar's work it was as if if I had traded a bicycle with a rusty chain and broken spokes for the starship Enterprise E. The difference was well worth it. What you have to ask yourself is, "Would I rather have quantity or quality?"
"Jim Roberts, AKA: Professor Jay Rob "<br>
The Professor's Facebook Page |
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